Tech to Blame for Ever-Growing Repair Costs, AAA Says

It's not just cars. Same problem with most home appliances.

Government energy mandates require increasingly better energy efficiency.
Companies have to redesign the parts every few years to meet the latest standards.
After about 6 years, parts are generally not available because they don't make the old parts any more.

These energy mandates also increase the costs, so the manufactures cut corners to try and make the prices more competitive.
The result is that the average refrigerator will only last 6 years, and if it breaks after that you will probably not be able to find the parts to fix it.

My mom's 36 year old fridge still works fine. I also have a couple mini fridges that are at least 25 years old that also work fine.
Had to retire my washer after 35 years due to a leak. Still worked fine, but it I was unable to replace the seal since I couldn't get it apart due to the rust.

While new appliances might save money during use, they end up wasting just as much or more energy since they have to be replaced more often.
 
See I don't understand these numbers, because at the end of the day it’s all just a $600 deductible for body work or $200 for a windshield. Yeah this shit is getting expensive but all this tech is helping to some degree, it is compensating for the fact that most people behind the wheel are terrible drivers. Want less tech in cars again then start enforcing higher licensing standards. We all know somebody that we are scared shitless to get into a car with when they are driving, and they are one of the reasons why manufacturers are working with the insurance agencies to get it in there. When an accident happens and the numbers get big they want to know with certainty who’s at fault so they can weasel out of paying up and put the fault on somebody else.
 
Grebuloner said:
TPMS, a great idea in theory as see a lot of low air tires on the road, but when the batteries die, it costs way more than the fuel saved to replace. Mine died about 5 years ago, and its $800 to replace them, not to mention the charge the tire store adds to "reset" them when I get new tires (yes, even if they don't work). But it was only $25 to carry my own pressure gauge and a bike pump, which we should all be doing anyway imho.
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Lol, wtf, did you go to the dealer? Tire shops do it for $30-50 tire, not $200 per.
 
sfsuphysics said:
I dont care, if you've never parallel parked in a dense urban city without a backup camera and ultra sonic sensors then you havent lived
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I do agree having done this many times, but part of the problem is the body designs.they're so focused on aerodynamics that the rear visibility iis garbage now. A backup camera is pretty much a necessity now.
 
Paul_Johnson said:
I have heard people say that before, but I am not sure how true it is. There doesn't seem to be any real reason why body on frame can't be as safe as unibody. It will be heavier which means it is going to get worse fuel economy but as safe and cheaper to repair.
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You can have built-up unibodies too with a partial frame, like the S2000. Then you can crash and repair it if you want.. mine has a cage in it so I don't have to worry so much about the repair compromising it.
If you like your lower comp, reliable and cheap, old I6s with crazy potential (500kW+ stock) check out the aussie barra.

Nolan7689 said:
Are you talking compression ratios? Why are you after low compression engines?
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Most DI tech is still being proven and has varying levels of issues depending on the manufacturer. Some is mostly there but mostly isn't as reliable as my 22 year old 5s-fe that's had oil and a fan belt in 250kkm... I have not seen what the new LTx GM v8s are like long term/higher kms though.
Only one I know of that got it right was Toyota because they have a pre-injection cleaning nozzle in the intake to stop carbonisation of the intake valves and tract that many DI designs suffer from. But then you still have high pressure fuel pump reliability to worry about.
Electric can't come soon enough.
I'll still have a high comp, high capacity NA v8 with a manual for fun though :)
 
Dead Parrot said:
The really sad thing is the basic mechanical parts in newer cars are pretty reliable. Its all the new tech wonder gadgets that cause most of the problems. And more of that crap is being mandated by government rules. To save a few kids, most vehicles have to have backup screens, that of course get loaded up with infotainment crap that distracts drivers, probably killing more people then are saved by the backup screens.
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I totally agree here. The truth is, modern cars are far more reliable and last a lot longer than older cars. Prior to the Mid 80's a car that had 100,000 miles was a miracle. Today it's expected. Even the time between oil changes is radically different. in the 70's and 80's going 10,000 miles between oil changes was a death sentence for your car. Today it's the recommended interval.

Unfortunately, that also means things are much more complex. Direct injection, CVT's, Dual Clutches, modern Cafe requirements.... It all drives the repair cost up. Then there are all the tech add ons. Rear view cameras (required on new cars by law now), Sensors, etc... Side mirrors are an excellent example. An expensive mirror used to be a power mirror, with maybe a defrost element in it. My car has added a puddle lamp, Directional indicator, and the collision avoidance indicator. Now we have the addition of cameras for cars with the 360 degree cameras.

Don't get me wrong, I love a lot of the new features. I am a huge fan of the collision avoidance stuff. That little flashing light on the mirror when someone is in the blind spot is awesome. That said, cars have become, perhaps, a bit too jam packed with tech. At least the trend of touch sensitive controls seems to be going away.
 
THRESHIN said:
I do agree having done this many times, but part of the problem is the body designs.they're so focused on aerodynamics that the rear visibility iis garbage now. A backup camera is pretty much a necessity now.
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I disagree on needing a backup camera. I personally think it makes things more dangerous. I've watched friends focus on that screen a lot more than they should. When you are backing up your head should be on a swivel, not just focused on what is immediately in back of you. It can also become too much of a crutch and they become useless in rainy weather. Water drops distort the image so badly to make it pointless.

I am a fan of the back up sensor. I do agree with you that rear visibility is terrible, and I have found that an audible proximity warning to be extremely helpful. As for Parallel parking, if one needs a camera to do this, they need to practice more and learn to judge the corners of their car better. There is a reason it is on most driving tests.
 
Paul_Johnson said:
I asked about this in the Cars subforum and no one could produce a link to this. Looking for one now. Vinyl floors, no infotainment unit, heavy knit cloth seats, low pressure engine, 4x4, crew cab, 6ft+ box, and delete as much electronic for mechanical as possible.
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Ok just food for thought, buy a slightly older truck for a good cheap cost, just make sure the frame suspension and body are excellent, gut it, and redo the truck crate motor brand new tranny and run with it from there. In the long run you will get away cheap but the time you do need to put into it is alot.
 
Paul_Johnson said:
Actual damage shown below.

What damage? I really can't see anything wrong. :zdunno:1

Makaveli@BETA said:
haven't people been parallel parking in dense urban city for decades now?
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Yes, but most of them know how to use a clutch too. :)

Cmdrmonkey said:
Precisely why I continue to drive an almost 20 year old Honda Accord. Modern cars are a scam. They are filled electronic garbage that breaks and costs a fortune to fix.
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I have 3 MN12 Fords; they will last 300k miles with minimal repairs, as long as you change the oil, and maintain them.

They are the same engine as mustangs, without the douchebag aura.

:)

V8, FTW!
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can you legally still drive a "totaled" car?

i mean fuck the sensors if it still runs.
 
Lakados said:
See I don't understand these numbers, because at the end of the day it’s all just a $600 deductible for body work or $200 for a windshield. Yeah this shit is getting expensive but all this tech is helping to some degree, it is compensating for the fact that most people behind the wheel are terrible drivers. Want less tech in cars again then start enforcing higher licensing standards. We all know somebody that we are scared shitless to get into a car with when they are driving, and they are one of the reasons why manufacturers are working with the insurance agencies to get it in there. When an accident happens and the numbers get big they want to know with certainty who’s at fault so they can weasel out of paying up and put the fault on somebody else.
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Maybe true to some small degree, but what really happens is that people get lazy, ie develop a mindset that awareness isn't important. Why be vigilant when the car will fix my stupid? People are worse at spelling now that spell check does it. Worse at navigation now that the GPS will tell me. But this slide is dangerous when it comes to safe driving. "Autopilot? Doesn't that mean I don't have to look at the road?" "Oh I can text and drive, done it before and I know what I'm doing."
 
DigitalGriffin said:
They aren't that expensive. They aren't anything more special than the batsrriws your computer uses for the cmos clock settings.
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bos said:
Lol, wtf, did you go to the dealer? Tire shops do it for $30-50 tire, not $200 per.
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In their infinite wisdom, the units are glue sealed and can't have the batteries replaced. I tend to get my repairs at the dealer as there aren't a lot of independent shops around (rural area) that wanted to fork over for the special manufacturer equipment, and even oil changes are cheaper than Jiffy (stupid super special oil-get free changes at the dealer anyway for getting the tranny/flywheel replaced) but they generally don't charge anything unreasonable, and the OEM German parts they use are better quality than my original dealer that used stuff from other manufacturers. I can buy a new TPMS for $104 for a single, or $109 for a 4 pack (go figure), so I suspect dealer pricing shenanigans was in play, but really, even $40 a tire is a tank of fuel. I drive a bus, checking tire pressure (and everything else) is a daily habit at work and a weekly one at home, as doing at least a regular walkaround should be a habit for all drivers.
 
Master_shake_ said:
Ford offers one.

Just a truck with an engine.
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Too bad I hate Ford trucks. :)

Nolan7689 said:
FYI I believe that all new (commercial) vehicles are now required to have a backup camera. So good luck finding a non fleet truck without a 4” screen on your dashboard.
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I've done fine without a camera for the 32 years I've been driving. Just another useless piece of crap on a car/truck IMHO. :)
 
nutzo said:
It's not just cars. Same problem with most home appliances.

Government energy mandates require increasingly better energy efficiency.
Companies have to redesign the parts every few years to meet the latest standards.
After about 6 years, parts are generally not available because they don't make the old parts any more.

These energy mandates also increase the costs, so the manufactures cut corners to try and make the prices more competitive.
The result is that the average refrigerator will only last 6 years, and if it breaks after that you will probably not be able to find the parts to fix it.

My mom's 36 year old fridge still works fine. I also have a couple mini fridges that are at least 25 years old that also work fine.
Had to retire my washer after 35 years due to a leak. Still worked fine, but it I was unable to replace the seal since I couldn't get it apart due to the rust.

While new appliances might save money during use, they end up wasting just as much or more energy since they have to be replaced more often.
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If you live along the coast, replacing a 25-35 year old fridge will pay for itself in like 3 years. I remember 35 years ago, that was during the time of "well we have a standard outer size, and we increased the internal size to the point that there is condensation/rust forming on the outside, i know lets install heating pads on the outside walls to prevent condensation."
 
In other news you can by 500hp E55's all day long for 4-8grand because its 1-2 factory maintenance intervals away from being worth zero, and thats if every thing works.
 
I drive a 1992 JDM Suzuki carry pickup truck. It is as cut down as a vehicle could be. 660cc carburated 3cyl. 12v OHC with a true HEMI head. right at 45hp. 4wd/ 5spd, 770 lbs carry weight and 39 mpg. I bought it imported from Japan right when it was able to go under the 25 year exemption.. I may sell my MGB and grab a Subaru Sambar since in 1993 the Sambar got fuel injection. Then sell the Carry in favor of something cool, like an R32 Skyline or something. Couldn't afford a GTR, but a GTS-T or GTS 5spd would be cool
44249087_10217704403592254_1881634088729706496_o.jpg
 
griffinhart said:
I disagree on needing a backup camera. I personally think it makes things more dangerous.
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There's no way I could park my car in my garage without a backup camera.
Wife has a minivan and I have a mid sized car. Garage is barely a 2 car garage.
I have to back in, with the passenger side a couple inches from the wall, otherwise I wouldn't be able to get out of the car.
 
nightanole said:
If you live along the coast, replacing a 25-35 year old fridge will pay for itself in like 3 years. I remember 35 years ago, that was during the time of "well we have a standard outer size, and we increased the internal size to the point that there is condensation/rust forming on the outside, i know lets install heating pads on the outside walls to prevent condensation."
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A new fridge would pay for itself in 3 years? Not possible, even with the high electrical prices here in Southern California.

Lets see, $2000/36 months comes out to $36/month. So to pay for itself, the new fridge would have to draw $36 LESS electricity per month.

When I replaced my 17 year old fridge, the drop was only a couple dollars per month, so it would take me over 50 years to break even.


My mom's fridge might be 36 years old, but it's a simple freezer-on-top model.
Still reasonably efficient compared to all the new side-by-side and french door models with ice/water in the door.
 
The biggest problem is just the cost of the tech in the secondary market. Sensors that are just a few $ when built with the car turns into $1,000+ parts when used in a repair.

Also a lot of dealers and repair shops aren’t setup with available space to calibrate the parts used in the repairs and so pushes the repair cost through the roof.
 
freeloader1969 said:
Right there with you. I wanted to order a GMC truck with no bells and whistles. I couldn't order a basic truck with no AC, no radio, no PW, PDLs, etc...I just want a basic stripped down work truck.
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Not sure how true it is today, but when I was paying attention to cars, vehicles as you describe were best found outside of the US market.
 
Well, I own a 2018 Civic Si Coupe and very much enjoy it. I did get an 8 year, 125000 warranty for only $1500 but, it is worth it, just in case.
 
GM used to have the W/T edition, Ford has the XL and AFIK, Ram created/ still has the Tradesmen marque of cut down trucks... But when you look at trucks from Japan/ Asia which are also popular elsewhere. A truck the size of an F150 is rated at 3/4- 1 ton, built as a cabover with 10-12' bed and usually a 2-3 liter engine, gas or diesel. No frills, just engine, bed and a steering wheel.
Laowai said:
Not sure how true it is today, but when I was paying attention to cars, vehicles as you describe were best found outside of the US market.
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nutzo said:
A new fridge would pay for itself in 3 years? Not possible, even with the high electrical prices here in Southern California.

Lets see, $2000/36 months comes out to $36/month. So to pay for itself, the new fridge would have to draw $36 LESS electricity per month.

When I replaced my 17 year old fridge, the drop was only a couple dollars per month, so it would take me over 50 years to break even.


My mom's fridge might be 36 years old, but it's a simple freezer-on-top model.
Still reasonably efficient compared to all the new side-by-side and french door models with ice/water in the door.
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Well lets look at this a bit closer, as I was curious of the results
Here's where I'm getting my data, and I'll consider it to be accurate unless shown otherwise
http://fridgeadvisor.com/how-many-watts-does-a-refrigerator-use/
1700kWh/yr for a 60/70s model, 1150kWh/yr 80/90s model, and 400kWh/yr for today's (2013 when the article was published)
We'll do 25c/kWh rates, not sure what it is in SoCal but that's the 100-400% usage rate up here in the north, So $1275 for the 60/70 model over 3 years, 862.50 for the 80s/90s, $300 for the modern model. These are all "average" sized units too. So replace your mom's is in that 80s/90s category so replacing it would save roughly $562 over the 3 year period. Now that's a far cry from a $2000 model fridge, but lets be honest that's a fairly high end model of a fridge, your "average" fridge for most families once you get rid of things like stainless steel exterior, french doors, ice maker, etc they're closer to the $600-800 range which isn't too far off, now if your mom's fridge was even older than you'd save nearly $1000 over 3 years and you pretty much have a new fridge worth of electricity in 3 years. Now if you live in "have the A/C on 24/7" parts of California you're also paying higher than 25c/kWh rates too, so definitely newer pay off.

Of course mom is woman, and if it's anything like my wife they can't just have a fucking fridge that works, it has to look good which for some reason means stainless steel, and has to have the nice doors that swing open and... pfffbt. That said, replacing your women most definitely won't save you money over the long haul if you opt in for a newer model :D
 
SecretStash said:
Maybe true to some small degree, but what really happens is that people get lazy, ie develop a mindset that awareness isn't important. Why be vigilant when the car will fix my stupid? People are worse at spelling now that spell check does it. Worse at navigation now that the GPS will tell me. But this slide is dangerous when it comes to safe driving. "Autopilot? Doesn't that mean I don't have to look at the road?" "Oh I can text and drive, done it before and I know what I'm doing."
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But people have been taking the "I know what I am doing" mentality for driving since cars were invented, simple problem is if you do the same task over and over with out incident you get complacent, with complacency comes laziness, with laziness comes accidents.
 
Lakados said:
But people have been taking the "I know what I am doing" mentality for driving since cars were invented, simple problem is if you do the same task over and over with out incident you get complacent, with complacency comes laziness, with laziness comes accidents.
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Yes, and it will only get worse when you trust the machines to fix laziness. "I can just look in my backup camera exclusively," nevermind that a kid's bike is approaching quickly outside of view
 
DigitalGriffin said:
A 50 cent piece of plastic that holds the side view mirror in place on my Taurus broke. It has Bliss built into the drivers side mirror. They couldn't just replace the mirror. They had to replace the entire housing Bliss indicator and all. $750

I went to the junk yard and pulled a used one for $350. Another $200 for labor. First Ford dealer refused to do work because it wasn't new. (I stopped going to them) The second made me sign a waiver they cannot guarantee work done and there is no warranty. It was one snap cover, 2 harnesses and 3 bolts for f'n sake.
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Should have just installed it yourself, its not rocket science.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
Premature detonation is bad. Mmmkay. While the amount of work you get out of a stroke grows considerably, it's hard to get those kind of compression ratios without high octane gas
There's some very simple Dodge pickup truck engines that are still made in the USA. But to be honest as nice as Dodge trucks are, they have a tendency to fall apart.
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Yep it is, but I will be buying a new 2019 Mustang GT soon (12:1 compression ratio) and throwing the boost to it from the get go and you can run about 8psi on pump gas with those Coyote motors. Gonna run e85 (~108 octane) in mine at ~15psi and make ~800hp to the wheels.
 
seanreisk said:
Ford 300 inline 6, baby! I have one on standby that (in a few years, when I finish the Scout) will go into a 1951 Ford F-100. I thought about putting it in the Scout, just for high-torque laughs, but I didn't want to go through the hassle of moving the radiator and possibly cutting the firewall. They still make these engines new but they don't put them in vehicles any more. They are sold for industrial things like well pumps, etc. 8.8:1 compression, 240 lbs. of torque at 2,000 rpm.
I originally got the engine for a 1935 Ford pickup because it's one of the few bullet proof engines that will fit without a lot of metal work, but that project fell through.
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I have a '85 Dodge Ramcharger I've had for nearly 20 years. My desire was to do my local running in it; save the newer truck for trips. Damn solid truck made in the days they built trucks form steel not plastic (unlike my '14 Ram pickup). But the down side is vehicles with carburetors suffer with ethanol gas. If they are not driven regularly it will gum the carb up and make it run like crap. It needs some maintenance mainly because it is old. (rear end bearings, AC does not work) and I don't have anywhere to work on it here. I'm going to have to put it in mothballs. Draining the fuel tank removing the carb and battery, putting desiccant inside and put it on blocks then dropping the tire pressure to about 10 lbs. When wrap it up tight in a tarp. I'm planning on building a shop building but life keeps happening so the ole Ramcharger is going to have to sit out in the cold for now.
 
Dr. Righteous said:
I have a '85 Dodge Ramcharger I've had for nearly 20 years.
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I've always wanted to do a '61 to '71 Dodge Sweptline D200 with the 4-door crew cab, but I doubt I'll ever restore one unless it falls in my lap. They're not horribly rare, but it's rare to find one with good sheet metal and a good trim line from front to back. The crew cabs were built individually and Dodge didn't care much about panel alignment, especially at the back doors.
 
seanreisk said:
The problem isn't the electronics, the problem is that car companies are cutting manufacturing costs by buying these as assemblies. Some of these pieces are like a laptop - if a discrete component goes bad, you replace the whole assembly. I know this is true for my Buick's rear view mirror.

Sometimes that's for the best. Some cars have sensors in the rear bumper that can be installed upside down or be installed in the wrong position along the bumper, and if that happens your car will constantly beep at you whenever you're in reverse.
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One of the other problems is that a lot of these sensors need calibration after replacement, and that calibration needs SPACE. That kind of space usage is inefficient for repair facilities for most of their work, and thus you get charged out the wazoo for access to said space. As more vehicles need the same thing, it should come down in price as the cost gets distributed over a higher percentage of the customer base, but you will still be paying for the overhead of the space.
 
sfsuphysics said:
Well lets look at this a bit closer, as I was curious of the results
Here's where I'm getting my data, and I'll consider it to be accurate unless shown otherwise
http://fridgeadvisor.com/how-many-watts-does-a-refrigerator-use/
1700kWh/yr for a 60/70s model, 1150kWh/yr 80/90s model, and 400kWh/yr for today's (2013 when the article was published)
We'll do 25c/kWh rates, not sure what it is in SoCal but that's the 100-400% usage rate up here in the north, So $1275 for the 60/70 model over 3 years, 862.50 for the 80s/90s, $300 for the modern model. These are all "average" sized units too. So replace your mom's is in that 80s/90s category so replacing it would save roughly $562 over the 3 year period. Now that's a far cry from a $2000 model fridge, but lets be honest that's a fairly high end model of a fridge, your "average" fridge for most families once you get rid of things like stainless steel exterior, french doors, ice maker, etc they're closer to the $600-800 range which isn't too far off, now if your mom's fridge was even older than you'd save nearly $1000 over 3 years and you pretty much have a new fridge worth of electricity in 3 years. Now if you live in "have the A/C on 24/7" parts of California you're also paying higher than 25c/kWh rates too, so definitely newer pay off.
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Electrical rate are about the same down here.
It's an early 80's model, but was very efficient for the time.
Even using your numbers of saving $562 over 3 years, that's $1124 over 6 years, about the cost of a new fridge that designed to only last 6 years.
Sounds like a wash to me. Besides, at her age it's not worth the investment. :eek:
 
Paul_Johnson said:
I have heard people say that before, but I am not sure how true it is. There doesn't seem to be any real reason why body on frame can't be as safe as unibody. It will be heavier which means it is going to get worse fuel economy but as safe and cheaper to repair.
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How would it be cheaper to repair? You still need to chop up the body on top of the frame to fix it, if its damage.

Weight and additional costs (vs unibody in a car/cuv applications) is the number one reason they don't use it outside of full sized trucks/SUVs where gas mileage isn't as important as it is in smaller products.
 
SecretStash said:
Yes, and it will only get worse when you trust the machines to fix laziness. "I can just look in my backup camera exclusively," nevermind that a kid's bike is approaching quickly outside of view
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The reason for a backup camera is that you can actually see what is directly behind you-one of the incidents that made backup cameras a requirement was a girl backing up out of her garage and running over and killing her sister that was in the driveway sunning her self-she was out of the view of the mirrors on the car. Other stories have small children directly behind the car-so on so forth-its a huge improvement over mirrors on your car, but you should be using your own eye and mirrors in addtion to the camera/backup sensor.

Cars also pair backup sensors along with the cameras for additional safety.

As for sensor failures etc-they happen, but given the history of electronics, most of them should last 10-15 years before needing to be replaced in a few years. I remember hearing about ECU failures in cars in the early to mid 1980s-I haven't heard of one since then.

My auto highbeam feature got screwed up when I had my windshield replaced, but i normally don't drive that much at night, so it wasn't a huge impact to me.
 
besides repair costs, it also keeps the initial price of cars high.

Most mass manufactured items get cheaper over time, not cars.
 
umeng2002 said:
Did anyone actually want self-driving cars?
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Yes, everyone who's stuck in a 1 hour plus commute in stop and go traffic 5 days a week would want one at first because you figure that you don't have to worry about the stop and go traffic, but to go further the main reason for that traffic is due to the irregular and chaotic nature of people driving, no one can merge well as people are either too timid or "fuck you me first" too aggressive. And for what should be smooth sailing because everyone is going straight never is because again too timid or "fuck you me first" aggressive "that lane is faster, no that lane is faster, *accelerate* *slam on the brakes causing a mini traffic jam due to the chain reaction*". Autonomous only cars have the potential to make freeway driving in the most crowded conditions relatively smooth.

AND... people want self-driving cars only because it'll mean getting people who obviously can't drive for shit off the road.
 
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