Tesla Cracks the America's Top 10 Best-Selling Sedans List

Joust said:
I'm calling bullshit on these numbers.

Even casual observation informs me that this CANNOT be true. Look at the cars you see during the course of a day/week/month. Seriously, look at the cars it supposedly beat out. Count what you see. Bet these numbers simply do not hold up to scrutiny.

Edit: I bet there are more current production year cars on this list sitting on lots in California alone than Tesla has made of all cars to-date.

Seriously, does no one else think this CANNOT be right?
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It is definitely plausible. One thing is that sedan sales in the US have been trending down for the past few years. So much so that Ford has decided to stop selling sedans in the US market altogether. The bar to crack the top 10 is now lower than it was 5 years ago.
 
likely a mixing up of delivered vs actual sold, since it is Tesla.

so the data for other cars does not have the same matrix
 
seanreisk said:
GM spokesman talking about the EV1: "There simply weren't enough [EV1 customers] at any given time to make [selling electric cars] a viable business proposition for GM to pursue long term."
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I'm sure they planned to say the same thing about the bolt. GM does not want to sell EV's. I had 5 freinds here in Germany that wanted to purchase an Opel Amerpera E (the Bolt rebadged here). GM only imported 500 of these cars to Europe.

They want to prove that they can, but don't want them to succeed.
 
Luke Wells said:
I'm sure they planned to say the same thing about the bolt. GM does not want to sell EV's. I had 5 freinds here in Germany that wanted to purchase an Opel Amerpera E (the Bolt rebadged here). GM only imported 500 of these cars to Europe.

They want to prove that they can, but don't want them to succeed.
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Wasn't Opal spun off from GM last year?

What GM, Ford, and FCA haven't figured out yet is that no one wants their shitty small cars. They've been totally out-competed by the rest of the world in that area. They've made the classic mistake of believing all their propaganda that their vehicles are the best, that they've become blind to their own shortcomings.
 
I'm shocked it made the list. Perhaps this electrifying achievement will make people bolt to a dealership?
 
Joust said:
Uh huh. Count them and compare to the number of Prius cars you see. Maybe there's a shitton, but I bet there are WAY more Priuses...Prii. whatever. And allegedly it outsold them considerably.
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Except that people drive their cars for multiple years so you're seeing 1 or 2 years worth of Tesla 3 on the road and 21 years of Prius.
 
Joust said:
Eh. 150hp is no slouch. You have to know, at one time in the not-distant past, the HP scale was much different. Like, you couldn't go into a dealership, pay money, and leave with a 400hp car. Maybe a TRUE exotic car. Things have changed substantially.

I say this contemplating the move to a CTS-V (because I am too old for a two seat car, and my little co-pilot rides in the back.)
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If you shop around for used cars, you can easily pick up a 200hp sedan for less than a new Toyota Corolla. I would also assume 200 torque as most cars are equal to torque and hp, except for Honda where their engines can have 200 hp but 150lbs of torque.

Zarathustra[H] said:
It's just like how I don't understand why people buy trucks for their daily driver. I mean, how often do you REALLY haul stuff? A handful of times a year? I'd rather have a sleeker car that handles better, and gets better mileage, and on the off occasion I need to move something larger, I can rent it.
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That's what I don't get about people driving huge trucks either. You drive it like a sedan but look like you're going to haul stuff.
I had a reservation for a Model 3. In the end I canceled it because I hated the minimalistic interior. I'm more of a "driver-centric cockpit, with gauges and clsuters everywhere and controls within easy reach of the driver." The whole "only place there is a speedometer is on the giant shared screen in the middle" thing was not going to cut it for me.
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Yea, not a big fan of where they put the gauges in that car. You look at the center but my eyes need to closer to the windshield, like by the steering wheel. Stupid that I need to look left and right to see how fast I'm going. But I'd love to have one cause 200 miles is plenty so long as I can recharge it every night.
 
DukenukemX said:
I would love to have the original Ford Taurus SHO with its engine. That thing looks sexy as hell. Look at it. Interesting fact, a lot of Toyota engines are designed by Yamaha, who also helped with the Ford SHO. Personally, modern cheap cars like to hover around 150 hp which to me is a no no. Gotta have at least 200hp or more.

View attachment 109026
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I'll see your v6 and raise you a SHO V8
1200px-V8_32_valve[1].JPG
 
Are these people even test driving the car or just ordering online?

I tried a few shitboxes on and off that list, and would like to try a 3 (among many others). Extremely brief reviews: Camry is meh, new Civic CVT is fun and punchy, Jetta was all throttle lag and shit steering, Elantra was the opposite of the Jetta (very responsive, but too much cabin noise), Altima was utter garbage (even the glass is poor and made me feel ill), Malibu gets worse every year, Fusion was okay... In the end I think that the company getting the most hate is doing the best job: Hyundai. So maybe if we keep hating on Tesla they might have a chance.
 
Joust said:
Uh huh. Count them and compare to the number of Prius cars you see. Maybe there's a shitton, but I bet there are WAY more Priuses...Prii. whatever. And allegedly it outsold them considerably.
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We have a ton of Teslas down here as well, like allover the place, I see them every day. Anecdotes don't really match numbers, but they can tell a story about where future trends are happening first.

Like cars replaced horses, some places takes longer than others to catch up, NY went from all horses to all cars in about 10 years (1908 - 1918) but take NY vs Kentucky in that example, about a 20 year difference.

It's crazy to see a $50k EV in the top 5 list that's dominated by $25k cars yes, but not really surprising considering the pent up demand no one else was wanting to satisfy.

Allot of people may have decided this is their last car and wanted something more future proof, or decided the longterm savings are worth it, etc. Someone will write a thesis on this eventually I'm sure.

Screen-Shot-2018-09-23-at-1.38.44-PM.png

We knew that EVs were less expensive to operate, but after running the numbers, we were completely surprised by how substantial the savings were.

— Prof. James Pawley, University of Wisconsin-Madison
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https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/3...r-free-in-10-years-buy-an-electric-car-today/
 
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Joust said:
I'm calling bullshit on these numbers.

Even casual observation informs me that this CANNOT be true. Look at the cars you see during the course of a day/week/month. Seriously, look at the cars it supposedly beat out. Count what you see. Bet these numbers simply do not hold up to scrutiny.

Edit: I bet there are more current production year cars on this list sitting on lots in California alone than Tesla has made of all cars to-date.

Seriously, does no one else think this CANNOT be right?
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Orders vs deliveries is the question. Tesla has a stupid amount of deposits right now for these cars, but will the translate into deliveries is the question.
 
HockeyJon said:
Orders vs deliveries is the question. Tesla has a stupid amount of deposits right now for these cars, but will the translate into deliveries is the question.
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As much as I dislike Musk and think Tesla cars have the ugliest interior design I've ever seen (so bold having jackshit in the cockpit :rolleyes:) I'm pretty sure they're talking about cars delivered.
 
Ultima99 said:
True, you'll look cool whenever you're broken down on the side of the road. I'll make sure to wave when I drive by in my Camry.

In all seriousness I'm on my third Camry and they'd all carry me through the gates of hell and keep on going.
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My grandfather bought a camry after the civil war. Still going.
 
Brian_B said:
Sedans.

In ‘Murcia, where everyone drives a SUV or truck.
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This is a very good point.

Trucks and SUV's were always more popular in the U.S., but over the last 10-15 years the trend has gone into overdrive.

It's amazing how quickly people forgot the gas price spikes up to $4.50 per gallon after hurricane Katrina damaged refineries in 2005. People have just been buying bigger and thirstier vehicles ever since.

Personally, its not even a matter of fuel milage. Even if crossovers and SUV's got the same milage as a smaller vehicle, I still wouldn't buy one. I hate sitting so far up. Makes the vehicle feel unbalanced, especially in the corners. Stopping distances are much longer too.
 
Wierdo said:
We have a ton of Teslas down here as well, like allover the place, I see them every day. Anecdotes don't really match numbers, but they can tell a story about where future trends are happening first.

Like cars replaced horses, some places takes longer than others to catch up, NY went from all horses to all cars in about 10 years (1908 - 1918) but take NY vs Kentucky in that example, about a 20 year difference.

It's crazy to see a $50k EV in the top 5 list that's dominated by $25k cars yes, but not really surprising considering the pent up demand no one else was wanting to satisfy.

Allot of people may have decided this is their last car and wanted something more future proof, or decided the longterm savings are worth it, etc. Someone will write a thesis on this eventually I'm sure.

View attachment 109143


https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/3...r-free-in-10-years-buy-an-electric-car-today/
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This is going to depend greatly on where you live, what the electricity rates are and what the gas prices are.

This being a Canadian study the numbers are going to be larger due to their plentiful cheap hydropower and high gas prices.

Here in Massachusetts where we have american comparatively low gas prices, and some of the highest electricity prices in the nation, last time I ran the numbers it was pretty much even between ICE and BEV. The BEV still has advantages though, as there are many fewer moving parts, so less need for service and maintenance which saves money.

10 years seems like an awfully long time to compare costs over. A more realistic timeframe would probably be 4-5 years, as that's about how long most people keep a vehicle. Any study of ownership also needs to consider the differences in purchase price, and the differences in residual value when you move on to your next vehicle, in order to get a complete picture.

So,

Purchase Price: Benefit ICE
Maintenance Cost: Benefit BEV
Fuel Price: Depends on electricity rates and gas costs in your area.
Residual value: Unknown (at least to me)

Which actually winds up having the lowest total cost of ownership winds up not being quite as straight forward as suggested.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
This is a very good point.

Trucks and SUV's were always more popular in the U.S., but over the last 10-15 years the trend has gone into overdrive.

It's amazing how quickly people forgot the gas price spikes up to $4.50 per gallon after hurricane Katrina damaged refineries in 2005. People have just been buying bigger and thirstier vehicles ever since.

Personally, its not even a matter of fuel milage. Even if crossovers and SUV's got the same milage as a smaller vehicle, I still wouldn't buy one. I hate sitting so far up. Makes the vehicle feel unbalanced, especially in the corners. Stopping distances are much longer too.
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The thing is that people are replacing mid-sized cars with small CUVs like the Escape. Roughly the same gas mileage and space for the driver, but more space in the back of it when needed.

So when was the last time you actually drove an CUV? My wife as a 2017 Escape (I have a 2013 Taurus SHO in relation) and her Escape drives/handles just as well as my SHO does. it might not have the off the line speed my car does, but it sure gets the hell out of its own way and stop pretty well too.

CUV vs Sedans MPG wise is a moot point-once you hit about 20MPG the amount of $$$ your saving from impoved MPG flattens out-people aren't driving 12-14 MPG Explorers any more-the new ones can get 24MPG highway and the high teens in city driving.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Which actually winds up having the lowest total cost of ownership winds up not being quite as straight forward as suggested.
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Certainly does depend on location yes. There was some work on comparing return on investment based on different states, results do vary but generally speaking the savings are solid:

http://www.umich.edu/~umtriswt/PDF/SWT-2018-1_Abstract_English.pdf
The current average annual cost of driving a typical new gasoline vehicle in the United States is $1,117, with a maximum of $1,509 in Hawaii and a minimum of $993 in Alabama.
The current average annual cost of driving a typical new BEV in the United States is$485, with a maximum of $1,106 in Hawaii and a minimum of $367 in Louisiana
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Other factors that may be of interest to some buyers:

Performance: These things are monsters in their class on both the track and drag strip now. To some drivers this can be a big seller.

https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1030313&page=82
Long time BMW (~20 years) enthusiast here. Registered just to throw my two cents on this thread (I am active on n54tech & bimmerpost but only lurked here), . I currently have an E36 325i with track suspension setup and a E82 135i with Performance Suspension upgrade and many M3 suspension part upgrades. The 135i is tuned and is a beast especially with the upgraded suspension setup.

I was in the market for a new car and cross shopped between the M2 Competition and either latest or upcoming M3 and the Performance Model 3. Well, I test drove the Performance Model 3 and was just blown away. The hyper-low center of gravity and low polar moment of inertia (just a frunk where a heavy engine would be) and insanely quick, smooth and silent acceleration just threw a curve-ball to everything I knew about sport sedans & performance cars. Especially one in this weight class. The car is simply a beast and absolutely out performs anything BMW has to offer today. After a few days of taking it up my favorite mountain twisty roads with very spirited driving I'm absolutely convinced of this. I would most likely need to go to a Porsche Cayman to beat the handling aspects of this car but even that wouldn't have the instantaneous power & torque of the Performance Model 3.
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Range: We're reaching acceptable levels for 99 percent of the population. Going 300-350 miles is enough for most people.

Utility: New benefits on the table to explore, which people find fun, exciting, handy or cutting edge:
- Drives in snow and rain with traction that's drastically more responsive.
- Some EVs can be used as a backup battery during a disaster.
- Some let you heat/cool cabin in garage before you go - without the garage turning into a gas chamber.
- Can double as a basic trailer, you get to the park and plug it into the socket directly. Can leave AC, player cooler etc on without running an engine.

Safety: Some of the safest cars on the road by design. The extremely low center of gravity leading to ridiculous levels of rollover resistance, rigid battery skateboard adding structural reinforcement, and lack of engines making for massive crumple zones. Some of the highest tested safety scores, five star in every category and sub-category in recent one for example.

Quality: With 2017's panel gap issues sorted, this is becoming another area of interest:
- A silent ride without vibrations while surround music plays in a glass dome. Allot of reviewers mention the experience as being akin to sitting in your personal auditorium.
- No clutter of knobs is becoming a selling point, other manufacturers are doing it next judging by their 2020 EV models.
- Regular over the air updates that constantly improve the vehicle and add new features, keeping the car up to date and/or improving performance.

From previously mentioned BMW driver:
I initially hated the interior direction when the car was introduced. At my test drive, I agreed I could 'live with it' given the phenomenal performance and handling of the car. Now weeks in, I can not imagine having anything else.

The interior is distraction free and clutter free. Leaving you to focus on the driving experience and road. It clears your head in a similar way to sitting at a cluttered messy desk vs. a clean and clear one.

The closest analogy is like using an iPhone and then going back to legacy phone. It's amazing how quickly the interior of my BMWs suddenly feel old.
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One thing BEVs don't have behind them yet is marketing muscle, media is not interested as there's no Ad revenue coming from that direction.

Perhaps in 2020 the old traditional manufacturers may decide to actually promote their EVs without fear of cannibalization of their aging golden hens.

And the more people exposed to proper EVs the quicker the message spreads.

The point is, in many areas it's worth considering some EVs when shopping for a vehicle, sometimes higher prices entry prices can be justified by features and longterm savings, and in a few years it might not even be the case.

Certainly a test drive wouldn't hurt. The only limitation right now is demand keeps outpacing supply so far.
 
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GT98 said:
The thing is that people are replacing mid-sized cars with small CUVs like the Escape. Roughly the same gas mileage and space for the driver, but more space in the back of it when needed.

So when was the last time you actually drove an CUV? My wife as a 2017 Escape (I have a 2013 Taurus SHO in relation) and her Escape drives/handles just as well as my SHO does. it might not have the off the line speed my car does, but it sure gets the hell out of its own way and stop pretty well too.

CUV vs Sedans MPG wise is a moot point-once you hit about 20MPG the amount of $$$ your saving from impoved MPG flattens out-people aren't driving 12-14 MPG Explorers any more-the new ones can get 24MPG highway and the high teens in city driving.
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Stuff like this is why I will never own a vehicle with a center of gravity taller than a standard sedan.



Even the driver of the shitty old Sentra was probably better off here. Truck driver was an innocent bystander and got flipped over, due to being too tall.

Also, you say the escape is comparable to your Taurus. I had a new body style Taurus as a rental once, and I wasn't too impressed. Even so, I just never am comfortable in tall vehicles. I'll easily push my car in a corner of I need to without ever feeling concerned. Even a crossover scares the shit out of me. I feel like I'm constantly only one wrong move away from a rollover.
 
gamerk2 said:
Had two Camrys before moving on to a Prius. Toyota's simply never break down, drive well, are safe, and simply are the best vehicles from getting you from point A to point B.
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It also makes you a Camry driver.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
It really depends on your use scenario.

99% of my driving is my 42 mile each way commute.

I can't remember the last time I drove further than 200 miles in a day. A 200 mile battery electric would handle any and all of my needs.

On the rare occasion I might want to take a road trip, but I don't buy a car for what I do rarely, I buy a car for what I do all the time.

It's just like how I don't understand why people buy trucks for their daily driver. I mean, how often do you REALLY haul stuff? A handful of times a year? I'd rather have a sleeker car that handles better, and gets better mileage, and on the off occasion I need to move something larger, I can rent it.

I had a reservation for a Model 3. In the end I canceled it because I hated the minimalistic interior. I'm more of a "driver-centric cockpit, with gauges and clsuters everywhere and controls within easy reach of the driver." The whole "only place there is a speedometer is on the giant shared screen in the middle" thing was not going to cut it for me.

Other than that, I kind of liked it. I don't much care for any of the self driving nonsense though. I wish I could buy one without that battery killing nonsense.
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Thats perfectly fine. My commute for years was less than 10 miles round trip. I'm a car guy, just couldn't ever imagine wasting my enthusiasm for autos on an electric car. I absolutely don't mean that as a knock on people who do, if it fits what you want, thats awesome. Electric cars just don't fit my check boxes. What electric cars are actually good at, i just don't care about.
 
Anything that has doors on is no fun to drive for me , trucks or sedans.

Driving my Rubicon with doors off and top down is way more enjoyable than anything else.

5th Wrangler I’ve had , and have tried going back to “sensible” cars (both Camry and Prius ) and damned if it isn’t boring as hell compared to what I’m used to, always go back to a Wrangler.

And yes , I drive the Jeep like it’s meant to be, where we go places where always having another jacked Jeep is required as we pull each other out of large ruts or help winch up the side of the hill.

Daily driver with no doors , covered in mud most of the time , is the way to go.

( my kids don’t give a shit about getting 35 mpg , but they do like being picked up at school and their friends looking in awe as they themselves get into the minivan and silver camrys )

;p
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
This is a very good point.

Trucks and SUV's were always more popular in the U.S., but over the last 10-15 years the trend has gone into overdrive.

It's amazing how quickly people forgot the gas price spikes up to $4.50 per gallon after hurricane Katrina damaged refineries in 2005. People have just been buying bigger and thirstier vehicles ever since.

Personally, its not even a matter of fuel milage. Even if crossovers and SUV's got the same milage as a smaller vehicle, I still wouldn't buy one. I hate sitting so far up. Makes the vehicle feel unbalanced, especially in the corners. Stopping distances are much longer too.
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When you have abominations like the GLA being all the rage, something has gone horribly wrong with people.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Also, you say the escape is comparable to your Taurus. I had a new body style Taurus as a rental once, and I wasn't too impressed. Even so, I just never am comfortable in tall vehicles. I'll easily push my car in a corner of I need to without ever feeling concerned. Even a crossover scares the shit out of me. I feel like I'm constantly only one wrong move away from a rollover.
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Don't drive like an idiot and you won't be in those situations most of the time and with stabitly control pretty much standard in higher center of gravity vehicles, its more or less a non-issue these days. I've seen pently of cars with "lower center of gravity" flipped over over the years.

The current gen Taurus is a bit of a mixed bag-not really a car and not really a crossover for the most part. The current gen Escape is based off the Focus platform, which has been pretty well reguarded handling wise through out its lifetime.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I actually had a '97 Mercury Sable LS (LS model had the 200hp DOHC V6, disc brakes all around, tighter suspension and bigger swaybars, as compared to the base GS version) as my college beater.

It wasn't particularly reliable. (the transmission blew up at 120k miles) but I didn't hate the way it drove. Granted, I hadn't been as spoiled by decent cars then as I am now.
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The first car I ever crashed was a '97 Sable LS in white. I was young, stupid, and tried to pack a dip of Copenhagen at 60mph while driving with my knees on a county highway. I touched the gravel shoulder, grabbed the wheel, over-corrected, started fishtailing (with cruise control on... derp,) and got t-boned by a telephone pole which ricocheted me through a stone wall at the edge of a field. That poor car looked like it had been through a war - all of the windows (yes even the windshield) were shattered, frame severely bent, at least two of the wheels were completely broken (all 4 tires were flat, so I may have cracked the other two as well,) and the radiator was punctured. Despite all of that, the only injury I had was a tiny cut on my ear from some of the flying glass. I'm not sure if it was luck or just a ridiculously safe car design. As far as driving went, it was vastly superior to the more recent iterations of the Sable/Taurus. I drove my parent's 2007 Sable a while back, and that thing was horrific even before I had been spoiled by my A6.
 
capt_cope said:
The first car I ever crashed was a '97 Sable LS in white. I was young, stupid, and tried to pack a dip of Copenhagen at 60mph while driving with my knees on a county highway. I touched the gravel shoulder, grabbed the wheel, over-corrected, started fishtailing (with cruise control on... derp,) and got t-boned by a telephone pole which ricocheted me through a stone wall at the edge of a field. That poor car looked like it had been through a war - all of the windows (yes even the windshield) were shattered, frame severely bent, at least two of the wheels were completely broken (all 4 tires were flat, so I may have cracked the other two as well,) and the radiator was punctured. Despite all of that, the only injury I had was a tiny cut on my ear from some of the flying glass. I'm not sure if it was luck or just a ridiculously safe car design. As far as driving went, it was vastly superior to the more recent iterations of the Sable/Taurus. I drove my parent's 2007 Sable a while back, and that thing was horrific even before I had been spoiled by my A6.
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Ahh, so it's not just me then. The second gen Sable LS was a better driving car than the more recent models.
 
GT98 said:
Don't drive like an idiot and you won't be in those situations most of the time
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See, I disagree with this mindset.

You can do everything right, leave tons of space to the car in front of you, etc. etc, and better handling and emergency maneuver capability is still going to be a huge benefit when some idiot cuts you off or does something else that is stupid.

I'd argue that it is always important to have a vehicle that handles as well as possible.

Now, obviously, there has to be some sanity here, we can't all drive fine tuned mid engined sports cars, but still, I just can't fathom giving up handling beyond the point where a sporty modern euopean sedan is.


GT98 said:
The current gen Taurus is a bit of a mixed bag-not really a car and not really a crossover for the most part.
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I had one as a rental once. It's weird, it rides really high, and it is huge on the outside while feeling small on the inside. A terrible car IMHO.

My 1997 Mercury Sable LS was much better by comparison.
 
Interesting news since the big 3 Detroit auto makers have come to the conclusion the sedan market is gone and have committed to stop production of such cars.
 
Dr. Righteous said:
Interesting news since the big 3 Detroit auto makers have come to the conclusion the sedan market is gone and have committed to stop production of such cars.
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It's more a matter of "Big 3 sedans suck at being sedans". It's just like the 70's again, where Detroit is so insulated they fail to see that pretty much everyone views their small car offerings as being lacking when compared to the competition. You also have to consider the fact they are chasing after short-term profit in order to raise their stock price, which is well and good in the short term but often leads to problems down the road.

Case in point: Fords F-series sales are dropping due to increased costs (thanks Trump!), and due to a lack of other offerings is putting Ford under significant financial pressure. Meanwhile, FCA has been literally holding up a "For Sale" sign for the past couple of years, but outside of Jeep there is little to no value in FCA; they literally can't sell themselves right now.
 
As soon as Tesla lets those leases roll out for a model 3, I'm in.
 
gamerk2 said:
It's more a matter of "Big 3 sedans suck at being sedans". It's just like the 70's again, where Detroit is so insulated they fail to see that pretty much everyone views their small car offerings as being lacking when compared to the competition. You also have to consider the fact they are chasing after short-term profit in order to raise their stock price, which is well and good in the short term but often leads to problems down the road.

Case in point: Fords F-series sales are dropping due to increased costs (thanks Trump!), and due to a lack of other offerings is putting Ford under significant financial pressure. Meanwhile, FCA has been literally holding up a "For Sale" sign for the past couple of years, but outside of Jeep there is little to no value in FCA; they literally can't sell themselves right now.
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Just putting this here to remind everyone that people make claims all the time. Usually if tied to a politician or political party the claims are bullshit.
https://autoweek.com/article/car-news/ford-f-series-record-sales-pace
 
Lenard said:
Just putting this here to remind everyone that people make claims all the time. Usually if tied to a politician or political party the claims are bullshit.
https://autoweek.com/article/car-news/ford-f-series-record-sales-pace
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Your article is a bit out of date (July); F-series sales have slowed down since then, with increased costs plus a plant shutdown (hurricane) both being blamed. Regardless, a single product line is responsible for a disproportionate amount of Fords profits, and the cost of that product has been going up significantly; there's a reason why the 84 month auto loan is a thing. Investors are VERY worried about how Ford is going to whether the next recession, which combined with it's relative lack of EVs or a self-driving initiative is dragging down it's stock price (down 50% over the past 5 years).

Dr. Righteous said:
Agree.
As far as Chrysler/RAM being on the skids; the RAM truck is more popular than ever outselling Chevy.
http://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/10...sold-chevrolet-silverado-for-past-two-months/
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I've never said FCA wasn't doing well, just noting their CEO has been trying to sell the company or parts of the company.

https://jalopnik.com/fiat-chrysler-boss-openly-considers-spinning-off-jeep-1794700937
https://jalopnik.com/shit-got-too-real-for-sergio-marchionne-1793356952
https://jalopnik.com/chinese-automaker-geely-offered-to-buy-fiat-chrysler-fo-1823530854
 
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