Yup look at them. Universal healthcare, longer lifespans, how horrible.
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Amazon Raises Minimum Wage to $15 for All US Employees
YeuEmMaiMai
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You know I live in a mobile home and I would not change it for anything....my friends always complaining about their taxes, assessments, pay for this and that, etc...
1. New paid for with cash, so no house payment
2. properly taxes + land lease which includes water, trash, sewer, and electric is under $580 a month.
two people making minimum wage at 40 hours a week can easily afford that making $2320 roughly $1640 a month after taxes. It is all about how you save and spend your money.. Now most entry level office jobs start around $10 to 12 an hour. From talking to various people that I KNOW whom are currently or have worked for Amazon at the local warehouse, they were making at least $14 an hour, almost double the min wage... making it even easier to do. the down side is Amazon WORKS you hard...
cageymaru
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Anybody that thinks Bezos did this out of the goodness of his heart is delusional. He did this to attract more/better workers. And the effort to get the Federal minimum wage increased is aimed at putting pressure on his competitors by forcing them to do the same. With its larger size, Amazon can absorb that kind of cost increase easier than smaller companies.
pek
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Amazon is hiring right now for their new Memphis distro center, going to be interesting to see if turnout grows after news of this gets out. I'll have to check the local news to see if they announce it. May get a little crazy.
Edit, 1,500 jobs and a "sortation center"(?):
https://wreg.com/2018/09/27/amazon-hiring-more-than-1500-in-memphis/
and I guess the local news is getting the word out:
https://wreg.com/2018/10/02/amazon-...hiring-begins-at-memphis-distribution-center/
But, "sortation center"?
And, fucking streets are going to be even worse as more late employees blow through stop signs and lights.
Edit, 1,500 jobs and a "sortation center"(?):
https://wreg.com/2018/09/27/amazon-hiring-more-than-1500-in-memphis/
and I guess the local news is getting the word out:
https://wreg.com/2018/10/02/amazon-...hiring-begins-at-memphis-distribution-center/
But, "sortation center"?
And, fucking streets are going to be even worse as more late employees blow through stop signs and lights.
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Indeed. True Capitalism means everyone gets a chance to make their cut. However, currently only those at the very top expect and demand to make the profit.
That_Sound_Guy
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Yeah I hear ya. Even worse, using paramedics as an example, is you have 3 options. Private which is vastly more expensive but with slightly higher wages, government (Fire/EMS combos) which will always be low pay or hospital triage/transport which falls into what you just said. I really worry if the 15 an hr trend continues US wide, what happens in this space.
Let me just leave this here. Yes, it was required for my Engineering degree. It was, as far as I know, required for just about EVERY major. With such a high demand, Engineering majors took it as a Spring course, whereas Business majors took it as a Fall semester course (so their first semester as Freshmen). When I took it, there were also students in my class who were on their THIRD attempt to pass the class (all business majors of some sort). Since this was so unimportant to me, most of the time the lecture 3x a week was my chance to nap between classes on a busy schedule that started with a 7:00am lab and ended with a 3:30pm engineering class. I did the assignments, read the book to study for tests, adn it was a prety easy A. I think all my friends aced the course as well, with minimal effort. And we wonder why the world of finance is such a mess.
Oh yes, sometime over the summer following this, I was at my Uncle's and looking over his bookshelf where he has some of his college texts from 30+ years before. He had the very same Economics 101 text that I had, just his was like 10th edition and mine was like 29th edition.
NWRMidnight
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You know, I just had a similar conversation with my brother, and I use to think like you do. Guess what, the companies that low ball labor, low ball costs, and underbid to get the job, they don't stay in business. They can't keep employees, so they are constantly under manned, and can't maintain their end of the contract, nor can they keep up with costs because they are not making enough money, as well as their quality of work is substandard. That is why many companies who take bids NO LONGER go with low bidders.
People need to get out of the labeling of people or thinking that skill and education is the only thing that should constitute a living wage. Or that minimum wager jobs are not hard work, or are only for entry level positions (look at the job listings nation wide, you will find thousands of NOT entry level positions paying minimum wage) What happened to an honest days work for an honest days pay? We don't have that anymore because people keep labeling and/or classifying jobs as no skill, or entry level jobs, even though many of such jobs are very hard work and are NOT entry level positions. Even sweeping floors for a living is very hard work, and takes a tole on your body. (when was the last time you spent 8 hours sweeping floors? after a hour or two, your arms are ready to fall off, not to mention the tole it takes on your back being on your feet for hours on end). Instead of looking at the skill aspect all the time, maybe we need to step back and actually look at all the other factors. I suggest those that think skill and education are the only factors that should influence how much a person should get paid, go spend a summer bailing hay on a farm. You will have a completely different opinion, as it is not a high skill job, nor does it take any education, but it is down right hard work.
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OFaceSIG
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I was in the Army and then the Guard. I know what it's likely to bust your ass physically all day and get paid shit. In fact I didn't expect to get paid well.
Unless a laborious job is highly in demand and help is scarce you will never get paid well. Again, simple economics. That's what this thread is all about. If people show up to work sweeping floors for $9 an hour then yes, they deserve to get $9 an hour.
Plumbers and electricions make much more per hour. You know why? It's SKILLED LABOR. Sweeping floors isn't all that difficult. Again, simple economics.
If you expect to retire comfortably after sweeping floors for 30 years you have another thing coming to you. Anyone can sweep floors. Not everyone can perform brain surgery. Again, simple economics, you don't deserve high wages for doing work anyone can do. FIND A SKILL.
Maybe take a few economic courses at your local community college and you'll better understand these concepts.
There's an economic system that believes all labor should be treated equally. It's called COMMUNISM.
NWRMidnight
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Where did I say anything about retiring comfortably after sweeping floor for 30 years? Where did I say that electricians or plumbers shouldn't make more? (btw, do you know what the starting wage for apprentices in those field are, you know no experience, no skill, entry level position? in my area, they start at $16 an hour, a far cry from your purposed $9 for entry level position) When you actually own and or run a business for 30+ years, and realize and understand what underpaying your help does, the added costs it creates, you will then realize how wrong you are.
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OFaceSIG
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What you're saying about the rates is proving my point. In my first comment I applauded Amazon for doing this. Electricians SHOULD make $16 an hour because it's... tada! SKILLED LABOR. Sweeping floors is not.
BTW, get better reading comprehension. Plumbers and electricians were an example. I never claimed you said anything about their wages.
Your comment was back breaking labor should have better wages. My point is, if the economy won't bear it, no, they shouldn't. Just because it's "your truth" that hard labor should get paid more means shit in the real world. Supply, and demand. Again, simple economics.
Snowdensjacket
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The price went up because the value of money went down. The value of money went down because the federal reserve printed well over $10 trillion dollars in the last decade.
How about not having such a purist stand in this subject?
There can't be a perfect competition, the market needs to be regulated and have stablished limits, I seriously hope that you are not talking about 100% free non interviened market, because there are certain conditions for that model to exist and none of them are present in real life.
This is the same forum where people were all against DRAM suppliers colluding... again, but yeah, a lot of people hate regulation and evil government interventions until market failures appear.
NWRMidnight
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An apprentice is not skilled labor. It is an entry level position that requires NO skill, no experience, where they are taught the skill by a skilled person in that trade, hence the reason they need to be an apprentice and learn it. You pretty much just contradicted yourself as an apprentice is not skilled labor, and won't be until they learn the trade. I have no issues with my reading comprehension. It appears you do, as you are the one who threw out various examples of higher paid jobs, some how wrongly coming to the conclusion that I believe they shouldn't be making more, based on the fact that they are skilled labor, hence the purpose of my response. I never mentioned anything about those skilled fields shouldn't be paid more, so you had NO reason to even give such examples. I just used the apprentice as an example of what NON SKILLED labor starts out at in that field., which over time, will develop into a skilled trade. Even sweeping floors is an entry level position that can lead over time into a skilled trade, but you have to take off your blinders to see that. This shows that SKILL isn't the determining factor for entry level positions and what they should or shouldn't be paid. When CEO's of large companies are making 200X their lowest paid employee, regardless of what they do, it has NOTHING to do with economics. Back in the industrial age, when this country was at it's best, and CEO's made at most 20X their lowest paid employee, regardless of the position, the majority of works made a living wage. That is not the case today, and it is not due to economics. Next, you are going to tell me, that many of today's minimum wage jobs, that once where not considered minimum wage jobs, are all due to economics.
I ran a small family owned company for 12 years where we paid all our employees a livable wage, even the entry level minimum wage positions where not paid minimum wage, but much more, Yet our prices where in line with the competition who did not pay their employees a livable wage, and paid minimum wage where possible. During the recession. Many of those companies that paid their employees less and where striving at the beginning of the recession, went out of business, with some of them being large corporations. Yet, our business continued to strive and stayed in business, in fact, we hired more people, and never had to cut anyone's hours, as our company grew. According to you, that is economically impossible. Yet, we did it, we continued to strive, even during a recession. All though I no longer work for the company, they continue to do so, all by paying EVERYONE, a living wage, even those positions that are deemed a entry level minimum wage position. Paying people a living wage has less to do economics, and more to do with greed, period.
I would also encourage you to go educate yourself as to why the Fair labor Standards Act was enacted. One quote I read stands out "The minimum wage was designed to create a minimum standard of living to protect the health and well-being of employees"
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OFaceSIG
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You know why electricians and plumbing aprentices are paid well? Because there is a shortage. So therefore, in a skilled field even apprentices will get paid well.
CEO salaries are a complicated matter. It's a matter of what the board is willing to pay for what the level of responsibility is. I would say they make a lot but not being in their shows I cannot tell you if any given CEO is making too much. There are CEOs that make 200k a year and then the sky's the limit.
I'm PROUD of small businesses that pay their workers well. But that was YOUR CHOICE. Not a government mandated minimum wage. You did the right thing for your situation! You cannot mandate that other companies pay their workers "x". You're not in their shoes. If their workers don't like their wages they can leave!
The government can title a bill whatever they want. But it's not sound economic theory to force anyone to pay a specific wage.
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Reality
[H]ard|Gawd
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When minimum wage increases, more people have money to spend, which in turn goes back into the economy. Simple economics.
Also, for those saying minimum wage jobs arent meant to be career jobs, source? You're detached from reality. People cooking your food are an important part of our society, you like prepared food right? Stop shitting on these people and what they do for a living because you have a degree and they dont
Minimum wage needs to be tied to inflation, CEO pay needs a hard cap, and we need to require companies include more employees on their corporate boards. Workers have no power with the continued death of unions, and giving workers a seat at the table ensures that profits arent unreasonably skewed towards CEOs and shareholders.
Companies refuse to put their fair share of profits back into the workers hands. This is the problem.
Somebody above said minimum wage is too high. You're detached from reality.
Also, for those saying minimum wage jobs arent meant to be career jobs, source? You're detached from reality. People cooking your food are an important part of our society, you like prepared food right? Stop shitting on these people and what they do for a living because you have a degree and they dont
Minimum wage needs to be tied to inflation, CEO pay needs a hard cap, and we need to require companies include more employees on their corporate boards. Workers have no power with the continued death of unions, and giving workers a seat at the table ensures that profits arent unreasonably skewed towards CEOs and shareholders.
Companies refuse to put their fair share of profits back into the workers hands. This is the problem.
Somebody above said minimum wage is too high. You're detached from reality.
DejaWiz
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Amazon Prime quick successive increase to $200/year in 5...4...3...2...
For reference -- Bezos' "10 billion dollar yacht":
When it costs me $600 for a 15 minute ride to the hospital in a Ford Econoline with blinky lights, they can sure as fuck figure out how to pay the guy saving lives more than burger-flipper wages. Maybe they'll find the money for it if they figure out how to negotiate a supply contract so a plastic bag of vaguely-salty water and a couple Tylenol costs less than said paramedic's daily wages...
DejaWiz
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Not entirely their fault, once you factor in the fleet costs, medical equipment, vehicle insurance, malpractice insurance, permits, registrations, licenses, inspections, maintenance, garages, dispatch, recordkeeping, and the slew of other astronomical costs associated with being able to keep ambulances on the roads.
If you know that you can do it cheaper and better, then absolutely go for it. There is literally nothing stopping you...
This simply isn't true and has proven untrue time and time again. This was already covered, but here it is again: When companies are forced to increase wage output, they will raise the prices of their goods and services to maintain a similar profit margin to what they were getting before. Why? Because salaries are the biggest expense any company incurs. I don't care what their business is, they spend more money on employee compensation than they do on anything else.
What world have you been living in? I'm sorry but the world isn't a giant liberal arts college. Historically minimum wage jobs are not meant to be career options for the long haul. That's not to say that people don't work those minimum wage, dead end jobs for decades but few people do. People are supposed to have entry level jobs while working their way through school and then when they have some marketable skills, they move into their chosen field and work their way up the ladder of that chosen field. Tradesman apprentice or go to trade schools and effectively do the same thing. Any job that pays well requires some sort of skill or talent. If you don't develop some type of marketable skill then that's on you.
When we have the near sum total of human knowledge at our fingertips, there is absolutely no reason to work bagging groceries for 30 years. You can learn almost anything yourself without formal education. You can at least get some idea of what training you need and where to start to move forward. Even in a grocery store you should move up the ranks into management. If you don't, its because you weren't motivated or screwed up so bad socially (in the workplace) as to end up effectively blacklisting yourself from advancing.
What's happened is that millenials are less motivated and far more apathetic than previous generations. I think this is the reason why they seem to be under the impression that a Wal-Mart cashier should be able to support a family of four. The problem is that as a society, we have gotten to a point where we are rewarding mediocrity and failing to reward or encourage excellence. No one should desire to remain a cashier for 45 years. No one should be burdening themselves with children they can't support. You want to have some sort of career and reasonable financial stability before starting a family. Obviously, that's not what happens in all cases, but giving people higher wages in those dead end jobs isn't the fix for that.
I don't disagree with the comments about minimum wage here. To some extent, I do think it needs to be increased periodically to coincide with inflation. After that, I don't think I can agree with you. While it seems ridiculous for a CEO to make millions and millions of dollars a year, such people shoulder a burden that we don't. More than that, its a high pressure environment and stressful jobs tend to pay more than jobs that are easier. As OFaceSig said, CEO compensation is a complex matter and while I certainly believe many of them are overpaid, its the companies decision to pay that much for those positions. Next, why should we require companies to include more employees on their boards? At some point you have too many cooks in the kitchen and many organizations are management heavy. The board of directors for a company isn't some charity or inclusive club designed to swell its ranks so more people can get fat salaries.
As for unions, I believe they served a purpose at one time. However, with the types of laws and regulations we have in so many industries now it seems redundant. More to the point, its a doubled edged sword that isn't always a good thing. Remember Hostess? The Union was pushing the company for more and more pay / benefits etc. when the company was swirling down the drain. The workers were told to get back to work or the company would close and they'd all be out of work. The Union literally strong armed the company into self-destructing. A company should have the right to hire and fire workers at will. I agree that workers should be treated fairly and not worked like slaves but Unions often have too much power.
While I can agree that some companies are way too greedy, they have no obligation to do so. When you run your own company, you can run it how you see fit. I don't like that companies claim poverty and fire workers while raking in record profits but they can do what they want. I've been a part of such cut backs and it isn't fun.
Given what it was when I entered the work force, I don't know that its too high now. I don't think increasing it to $15 an hour is a good idea. Again, companies will just increase the costs of goods and services. While it will be nice in the short term for people who got a 50% salary increase, it won't be nice for anyone who didn't. All of the sudden, everyone else but the extremely wealthy feels the squeeze of that. That would include me. If my lawn care service doubles or triples their prices to cover larger salaries for their workers I'll have to drop that service and do it myself. How would driving away their customers help that business? Granted they are probably illegal aliens but, you get the idea.
I don't have any problem with a company taking care of its workers and paying over market value for their employees. However, I don't think increasing the minimum wage to $15 is the answer to any fucking economic problem in America. What that will do is cause the prices for things we buy and services we use locally to go up. Companies who pay minimum wage for other American jobs will outsource them overseas or use automation to keep costs down. It won't effect them at all. Worse yet, some of them may claim they are increasing their costs to cover higher labor costs even though that's not happening. They'll do it if they think they can get away with it. Who does that help? It doesn't help anyone here.
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buttons
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working on a farm is no joke, but it paid more then my first technical support "career" job which was minimum wage.
So, if raising minimum wages causes inflation, why dont we just burden excessively rich people with a tax that encourages them to spend it. Create a loophole that allows them to reinvest into business, hire more people, etc which allows them to avoid paying the tax. It will create more jobs, which may create labor shortages in time, thus raising wages of all ?
On one hand i do not like the thought of the government taxing us to death, on the other hand i absolutely hate people hoarding billions of dollars while most of us work two or three jobs just to be broke. People need a carrot on a stick -- a reason to work hard, to innovate, or etc but I feel there needs to be something that encourages the top 1% or even top 10% to redistribute a portion
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Look at video, now many people do you see working this huge ware house. $15/hour when you can reduce your workforce to virtually nothing is really nothing for Amazon, they do have high end positions that pay big bucks if one has technical skills and need a job.
Here we are squabbling about putting a few extra bucks in the pockets of the people who spend their entire shift on foot.
In any case, I agree that minimum wage jobs aren't meant for long term careers. But at the same time, I think if you work full time you should have a "livable" income. By livable, I mean something where you can reasonably afford to provide for yourself without depending on your parents, a spouse, or the government.
I'd like to think that everyone can become skilled in something more valuable, but my experience tells me otherwise. The problem with giving some people more money, is more irresponsibility. But I know that for some, its not a matter of refusing to improve - its just a mental disability of some kind or burned out from drugs. I'm torn on the whole thing really.
In any case, I agree that minimum wage jobs aren't meant for long term careers. But at the same time, I think if you work full time you should have a "livable" income. By livable, I mean something where you can reasonably afford to provide for yourself without depending on your parents, a spouse, or the government.
I'd like to think that everyone can become skilled in something more valuable, but my experience tells me otherwise. The problem with giving some people more money, is more irresponsibility. But I know that for some, its not a matter of refusing to improve - its just a mental disability of some kind or burned out from drugs. I'm torn on the whole thing really.
I've got a friend who lives in Canada. The wait time to see doctors there is insane. They also pay a fuck ton more in taxes than we do. She actually came to the U.S. to visit a doctor here so she could get immediate treatment for whatever it was she needed. I hear this isn't all that uncommon for people who live close enough to the U.S. to do this.
https://business.financialpost.com/...ng-and-youre-paying-a-lot-more-than-you-think
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article/canada-not-a-good-example-of-universal-health-care
https://www.city-journal.org/html/ugly-truth-about-canadian-health-care-13032.html
That's not to say there aren't benefits to such a system, but there are certainly some cons to it as well.
https://www.formosapost.com/pros-and-cons-of-universal-health-care-in-canada/
Only because giving certain people more money isn't the answer. When you look at lower income families, you often see big TV's, smart phones in everyone's hands and a more expensive vehicle than they should be able to afford. Many people live beyond their means and giving them more money won't change that behavior. Again, raising minimum wage will force businesses to cut back on hours, hire fewer people, fire the ones they have and or raise prices on goods and services or any combination of all of the above. The fact is, simply raising the minimum wage of the country isn't the solution to fixing wage gaps or improving the quality of life for the nation or any other problem you can think of.
No, they aren't.
Why is that? Anyone who works full time can choose to work anywhere their skills will allow. Again, there are too many ways to learn skills and various assistance programs to aid in job training for this to be an excuse. That's not to say that we can't do more to provide training. I think vocational courses at the high school level are an excellent way to teach people valuable skills who might not otherwise be able to obtain such training. The high school I went to offered this and few high schools I've seen outside of that one do. However, I think people being apathetic enough to coast through life in the same dead end job for the rest of their adult lives is not something we should reward. Its also not something that the rest of us should pay for. Government assistance for special cases where people have cognitive impairment is already available.
The U.S. military has actually done a number of useful studies on things like this spanning over 100 years. Their study suggests that 1 in 8 people has an IQ of around 83. People with IQ's that low are untrainable for anything useful. If that's true, then we need to do find a way to make those 1 in 8 useful or subsidize them in some fashion. The other 7 have no fucking excuses and shouldn't be working in dead end jobs forever, and if they do, they should be smart enough not to create huge fucking families they can't afford to care for. As it is we have social programs to help such people already. One example of this: There are programs available to get people houses that they can't afford if they make too little money and have a crap ton of kids they can't support properly. (See USDA subsidized home loans.)
If 1 in 8 people aren't smart enough to be all that productive (which I'm not entirely convinced is true), then the solution isn't to pay all 8 a super high minimum wage. The cheaper solution is probably to subsidize the one person who can't contribute in some way or find another role for them while letting the others work as they do now. In a free market society, there is a great deal more potential to succeed but there is also the freedom to fail. To some degree, we have to allow the potential for failure and not impede success. Not everyone will succeed all the time, but we already have programs in place to deal with a lot of that. Again, raising the minimum wage to double what it is now isn't the answer to economic issues in America.
gwarren007
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YES! I can raise the rent on my rentals more now!!
Archaea
[H]F Junkie
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Boil this down for the fools:
Federally doubling minimum wage simply means inexpensive goods and services made here in the States will nearly double in price, become more automated (Losing human jobs), and ultimately further bleed out the middle class.
Do you expect amazon prices not to rise in this scenario?
illustration of Federally requiring a $15 minimum wage...
You are paid $8 an hour now making bread. Next month you make $15 an hour. Your salary nearly doubled for unskilled labor. (So does the farm hand’s wage, the plastic factory workers wage, the bread bag printers wage, the delivery driver wage, the grocery store stocker and cashier’s wage). In kind, Bread goes from $2 a loaf to $4 a loaf to pay for the associated workers’ wage uptick over two months time.
inflation occurs...rapidly!!! What $2 could buy now takes $4-$5
Meanwhile the 6 year college educated (underpaid) social worker who previously made $40k a year didn’t get that same 100% raise. Nor did his school loans half. Maybe he got a 3% cost of living adjustment and this new world with $4 a loaf bread, and $7 a gallon milk/other general living expenses uptick for his family (as the retail market trued up) just turned him from lower middle class to poverty level. Reduced lunches now apply to his kids and government subsidies are claimed, and still his family can barely scrape by.
So the poor gain zero buying power
And
The middle class make less respectively
Inflation spikes eliminating the dollar value of anyone who actually wisely squirreled away savings along the way.
How is that a win?
Oh well you say? We can just import more cheap stuff from other countries?
Yeah bleeding out American money (resources) to increasingly import cheap foreign goods fixes everything!
Federally doubling minimum wage simply means inexpensive goods and services made here in the States will nearly double in price, become more automated (Losing human jobs), and ultimately further bleed out the middle class.
Do you expect amazon prices not to rise in this scenario?
illustration of Federally requiring a $15 minimum wage...
You are paid $8 an hour now making bread. Next month you make $15 an hour. Your salary nearly doubled for unskilled labor. (So does the farm hand’s wage, the plastic factory workers wage, the bread bag printers wage, the delivery driver wage, the grocery store stocker and cashier’s wage). In kind, Bread goes from $2 a loaf to $4 a loaf to pay for the associated workers’ wage uptick over two months time.
inflation occurs...rapidly!!! What $2 could buy now takes $4-$5
Meanwhile the 6 year college educated (underpaid) social worker who previously made $40k a year didn’t get that same 100% raise. Nor did his school loans half. Maybe he got a 3% cost of living adjustment and this new world with $4 a loaf bread, and $7 a gallon milk/other general living expenses uptick for his family (as the retail market trued up) just turned him from lower middle class to poverty level. Reduced lunches now apply to his kids and government subsidies are claimed, and still his family can barely scrape by.
So the poor gain zero buying power
And
The middle class make less respectively
Inflation spikes eliminating the dollar value of anyone who actually wisely squirreled away savings along the way.
How is that a win?
Oh well you say? We can just import more cheap stuff from other countries?
Yeah bleeding out American money (resources) to increasingly import cheap foreign goods fixes everything!
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Raising minimum wages and then said jobs getting supplemented with automation isn't necessarily a bad thing.
This happened before, during the industrial revolution, where agriculture/farming could replace hundreds of workers with a single machine.
However, unlike the industrial revolution, the displaced workers don't have other jobs they can pick up. The displaced workers typically found new jobs at a factory or some form of desk work.
The simple matter of the fact is, humanity has come to a point where we don't actually need all that many workers at all and we seem to only employ people out of pity or greed.
Pity, because our society is stuck with using currency as a means of living.
Greed, because it's easier to have slaves work off their "debt" and never figure out they are actually slaves.
This happened before, during the industrial revolution, where agriculture/farming could replace hundreds of workers with a single machine.
However, unlike the industrial revolution, the displaced workers don't have other jobs they can pick up. The displaced workers typically found new jobs at a factory or some form of desk work.
The simple matter of the fact is, humanity has come to a point where we don't actually need all that many workers at all and we seem to only employ people out of pity or greed.
Pity, because our society is stuck with using currency as a means of living.
Greed, because it's easier to have slaves work off their "debt" and never figure out they are actually slaves.
Boil this down for the fools:
Federally doubling minimum wage simply means inexpensive goods and services made here in the States will nearly double in price, become more automated (Losing human jobs), and ultimately further bleed out the middle class.
Do you expect amazon prices not to rise in this scenario?
illustration of Federally requiring a $15 minimum wage...
You are paid $8 an hour now making bread. Next month you make $15 an hour. Your salary nearly doubled for unskilled labor. (So does the farm hand’s wage, the plastic factory workers wage, the bread bag printers wage, the delivery driver wage, the grocery store stocker and cashier’s wage). In kind, Bread goes from $2 a loaf to $4 a loaf to pay for the associated workers’ wage uptick over two months time.
inflation occurs...rapidly!!! What $2 could buy now takes $4-$5
Meanwhile the 6 year college educated (underpaid) social worker who previously made $40k a year didn’t get that same 100% raise. Maybe he got a 3% cost of living adjustment and this new $4 a loaf bread, and $7 a gallon milk/general increase in living expense for his family (as the retail market trued up) just turned him from lower middle class to poverty level. Reduced lunches now apply to his kids and government subsidies are claimed, and his family can barely scrape by.
So the poor gain no buying power
And
The middle class make less respectively
How is that a win?
Oh well you say? We can just import more cheap stuff from other countries?
Yeah bleeding out American money to increasingly import cheap goods fixes everything!
Well put. I've said the same thing and it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.
Grimlaking
2[H]4U
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- May 9, 2006
- Messages
- 3,245
Boil this down for the fools:
Federally doubling minimum wage simply means inexpensive goods and services made here in the States will nearly double in price, become more automated (Losing human jobs), and ultimately further bleed out the middle class.
Do you expect amazon prices not to rise in this scenario?
illustration of Federally requiring a $15 minimum wage...
You are paid $8 an hour now making bread. Next month you make $15 an hour. Your salary nearly doubled for unskilled labor. (So does the farm hand’s wage, the plastic factory workers wage, the bread bag printers wage, the delivery driver wage, the grocery store stocker and cashier’s wage). In kind, Bread goes from $2 a loaf to $4 a loaf to pay for the associated workers’ wage uptick over two months time.
inflation occurs...rapidly!!! What $2 could buy now takes $4-$5
Meanwhile the 6 year college educated (underpaid) social worker who previously made $40k a year didn’t get that same 100% raise. Maybe he got a 3% cost of living adjustment and this new $4 a loaf bread, and $7 a gallon milk/general increase in living expense for his family (as the retail market trued up) just turned him from lower middle class to poverty level. Reduced lunches now apply to his kids and government subsidies are claimed, and his family can barely scrape by.
So the poor gain no buying power
And
The middle class make less respectively
How is that a win?
Oh well you say? We can just import more cheap stuff from other countries?
Yeah bleeding out American money to increasingly import cheap goods fixes everything!
You realize that isn't how it works right?
Here is a nice study that breaks it down.
https://evans.uw.edu/sites/default/files/minwagereport20180119.pdf
While prices did go up the first two years it was about 6% a far shout from your 100% nightmare scenario and that's for dining out food. Grocery foods went up 4-6 percent the first year then down 0.4% the second.
While at base level your example rings like basic truth, the real answer is that prices went up a minute amount even though base pay was increased from 50 to 100% in that city.
Will that be true across the board, probably not. Will it be a 100% price increase tied to the increase of minimum wage? No. The amount of price increase tied to minimum wage is actually... minimal. Remember the % of employees making less than 15 an hour or at the actual 7.25 an hour base pay is not that large due to the record low unemployment numbers in the US businesses are already increasing pay for some in order to attract and keep employees. So the overall impact on income across the board isn't a net increase of 100%. It's pretty minor and probably closer to the 4-6% we see in the study.
So while your sensational numbers are.... sensational, they are not proving to be true.
Now if income doubled for EVERYONE then yea that would probably happen.
I never argued that raising the minimum wage was some kind of fix-all. Its also not giving - they're already working for it! Nor do I believe that people actually relying on minimum wage are living the kind of lifestyles you describe. Its the middle income families with hundreds of thousands of credit card debt that, in my opinion, line up with your description.
I want to put a few extra bucks into the pockets of people who work shitty jobs. If that means my tab at McD's is 7.50 instead of 7, fuck it. Maybe people should reconsider the affordability of their lifestyles if prices go up a few percent. Which they will anyways for plenty of other reasons. Free market rules are great and all, but we've seen what happens - power tends to concentrate in the hands of the few and everyone else is left holding a bag of shit. I'm not saying a fully planned economy is the way to go, but this kind of stuff is the reason we have government in the first place - we are self-interested actors agreeing to a social contract in a system that tries offer everyone some basic protections and rights.
More of a personal philosophical reason, but I've seen the struggle and I hate seeing people I care about suffer. I've seen a lot of people sacrifice their time, which is all we really have, for shit paychecks. I can't help everyone, but if I see someone working hard to survive, you're damn right I think they should be paid well and offered better opportunities. Businesses will do whatever is necessary to scrape by with more profit - morals or not, its just business. Good people wind up in all kinds of bad situations - its easy to say as an outsider "well you shouldn't have done that." So in this sense I believe the minimum wage, at some level, protects workers.
I'm not going to do the math on that, but it still sounds like a lot of people. And the programs you speak of are already not enough. Even if you serve, the VA will still fuck you.
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Archaea
[H]F Junkie
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You realize that isn't how it works right?
Here is a nice study that breaks it down.
https://evans.uw.edu/sites/default/files/minwagereport20180119.pdf
While prices did go up the first two years it was about 6% a far shout from your 100% nightmare scenario and that's for dining out food. Grocery foods went up 4-6 percent the first year then down 0.4% the second.
While at base level your example rings like basic truth, the real answer is that prices went up a minute amount even though base pay was increased from 50 to 100% in that city.
Will that be true across the board, probably not. Will it be a 100% price increase tied to the increase of minimum wage? No. The amount of price increase tied to minimum wage is actually... minimal. Remember the % of employees making less than 15 an hour or at the actual 7.25 an hour base pay is not that large due to the record low unemployment numbers in the US businesses are already increasing pay for some in order to attract and keep employees. So the overall impact on income across the board isn't a net increase of 100%. It's pretty minor and probably closer to the 4-6% we see in the study.
So while your sensational numbers are.... sensational, they are not proving to be true.
Now if income doubled for EVERYONE then yea that would probably happen.
You counter with a short term study of a single city? Where the prices of items imported to that city from the immediately surrounding areas aren’t raised because there was no minimum wage increase — And extrapolate that to a national level where the minimum wage will have significantly raised all Stateside manufactured goods???
Come on man...use your head.
Look at Appendix C, Table C1 in your document.
I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss.
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The correct approach is probably much more nuanced than declaring "capitalism" or "socialism" as the solution to everything.
Simplifying everything or turning everything into a binary option does make it much easier to think about things, but it doesn't seem to be getting us any results. Reality is complicated.
SamuraiInBlack
Supreme [H]ardness
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- Oct 10, 2003
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- 5,771
Even if everyone got a degree, a usable degree in an actual field of work, there's still only so many jobs for any given industry. Even if everyone else got into trades instead of some college degree required gig, there's still only so many jobs in those as well.
Someone still has to flip the burgers, stock the shelves, and deliver the pizzas. There are not enough of those kinds of jobs for teenagers, let alone adults who are trying to support themselves. So what happens then?
Someone still has to flip the burgers, stock the shelves, and deliver the pizzas. There are not enough of those kinds of jobs for teenagers, let alone adults who are trying to support themselves. So what happens then?
M76
[H]F Junkie
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Competition is only a good approach in competitive markets. There are tons of fields where it is counter productive. And technological unemployment makes it absolutely impossible to stick to the archaic notion of competing for jobs. That only works if there are more job opportunities than candidates looking for jobs. People have value, they shouldn't be forced to earn a living. That could be a given. They should compete to earn additional privileges. Competing for basic living when it could easily be granted to everyone given our technology is a sick game the top people enjoy playing.
There are those dystopian movies where the poor is forced to compete for food and their lives, while the rich bet on them and watch. We're already in that world, most are just too blinded by the glitter to realize it.
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