lol, no, they're not. The only time B&W end up in studios is for marketing stunts. Most studios will be using active monitors from JBL, Genelec, etc.
Their FR is bad, their off axis is bad, dynamics, time alignment, etc. none good.
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Replacing Op-Amps in a Topping D10 DAC
- Thread starter cageymaru
- Start date
lol, no, they're not. The only time B&W end up in studios is for marketing stunts. Most studios will be using active monitors from JBL, Genelec, etc.
Their FR is bad, their off axis is bad, dynamics, time alignment, etc. none good.
pgwalsh
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Delta Sigma or R2R/Multibit Dac?
Class A Amp or Class A/B Amp or Class D Amp? (yes there are others)
What do you all prefer out of these categories?
Class A Amp or Class A/B Amp or Class D Amp? (yes there are others)
What do you all prefer out of these categories?
Class D for everything. Years ago they really brought the THD down Class D amps, the price (watt to dollar ratio up!) and efficiency make them a go-to buy for me.
I don't get too caught up the DAC used as long as the item I'm using doesn't introduce noise into the chain. My next set of purchases will be some Motu's for a fully active LCR.
Your SH50's are pretty awesome, there are "better" speakers but SH50's are awesome point source. You could help them out by adding midbass modules, I've noticed that they need some help in that area.
The surprise. I does not has it 
. The "upgrading opamps" thing has always been funny to me because if you learn even a fairly small amount of electrical engineering, you come to find out that with circuits it isn't a case of just getting "better" components, they need to be the right ones.
Ummm, they get used plenty in studios, not 90% like the OP claimed probably, but they crop up plenty. For example you see them in a little studio called Abbey Road, you might have heard of it. Studio One has 800Ds, Studio Two has Nautilus 801s, Studio Three has 800Ds. Same deal on the mastering side, lots of B&W kit. Now you can argue if that is the best choice or not, but trying to claim that it is "just marketing stunts" is silly. The gear is there full time, go look it up on their page, and Abbey Road is a place people go to make some really top notch works.
They might not be your thing, they aren't mine (too expensive for what you get) but trying to act like they are garbage and no real studio would use them is silly.
. The "upgrading opamps" thing has always been funny to me because if you learn even a fairly small amount of electrical engineering, you come to find out that with circuits it isn't a case of just getting "better" components, they need to be the right ones.Ummm, they get used plenty in studios, not 90% like the OP claimed probably, but they crop up plenty. For example you see them in a little studio called Abbey Road, you might have heard of it. Studio One has 800Ds, Studio Two has Nautilus 801s, Studio Three has 800Ds. Same deal on the mastering side, lots of B&W kit. Now you can argue if that is the best choice or not, but trying to claim that it is "just marketing stunts" is silly. The gear is there full time, go look it up on their page, and Abbey Road is a place people go to make some really top notch works.
They might not be your thing, they aren't mine (too expensive for what you get) but trying to act like they are garbage and no real studio would use them is silly.
pgwalsh
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I like Class D as well. Right now I'm trying to decide on a Benchmark Media AHB2 and a D-Sonic amplifier. The D-Sonic is half the price, but the Benchmark measures incredibly well. No rush until I get close to finishing my Statement II's.
As for DAC's, I'm curious about R2R multibit, but have never heard one. Right now I'm using my Oppo 203 as a transport and converter.
As for studio speakers, many music studio's have multiple pairs. I know a lot of studio keep a pair of Alesis Montior One's, at least the classic version. Not that they're a particularly good speaker, but they were found so often people used them as a reference point.
B00nie
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The main problem is that we do not know how to measure everything in audio yet - if it's going to be even possible to measure with traditional methods. You can have two amps that on paper and measurements seem identical but yet people hear a difference in the sound. And nyt: If you claim B&W 800D is a bad speaker, perhaps you need to get your hearing checked!
Ive got $1000 headphones and I can't tell the difference with DACs tbh.
I've got an ifi Black Label Micro which is supposed to be pretty good but the improvement over my ZxR was, to my ears, just having an amp.
A really shit dac, sure, but anything decent and it gets beyond my ears pretty quick
I've got an ifi Black Label Micro which is supposed to be pretty good but the improvement over my ZxR was, to my ears, just having an amp.
A really shit dac, sure, but anything decent and it gets beyond my ears pretty quick
Theres really no point into comparing studio monitors, except to look at FR range. Its not like studio's just plug them in and go "ok guys, we will base all of our stuff on just these!" The first thing they do is EQ them flat, point at producer and go from there. Of axis in this case only matters to those who listen from the sides, the best these things really need is 15-20 degrees up to 14khz and you wouldn't tell the different.
Most of the time the speakers are given to them, free advertising!
DrBorg
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I can't believe how much BS there is in audio.
I spent the last 10+ years building dataaq systems; hundreds of channels at 200MHz and 10 bits.
Optimizing noise in these systems is essential, as there's so much happening.
10 bits is easier than 24 bits, but it doesn't change the fact that the single biggest noise source is something you can't really do anything about.
Resistors.
Boltzmann wrote the equations that define noise in electronic systems, and everything is proportional to temperature.
Some resistors are quieter than others; but you can make a peavy work-horse amp sound a lot better by replacing all the resistors with high quality metal film resistors.
When some jackass tells me he can hear the difference changing an opamp makes, it makes me want to sell him silver speaker wire, lol. (also does nothing, btw.)
You Can radically change the noise specs for a lot of electronics, if you want; liquid nitrogen is what we use for the germanium detectors, it drops the noise to multi-electron levels.
Oh, and for anyone who thinks a Class D amp is quiet, you've either never heard a good amp, or expensive electronics are wasted on you, due to your hearing.
Look up how they work; they're a PWM with a cheap filter.
:rofl:
I spent the last 10+ years building dataaq systems; hundreds of channels at 200MHz and 10 bits.
Optimizing noise in these systems is essential, as there's so much happening.
10 bits is easier than 24 bits, but it doesn't change the fact that the single biggest noise source is something you can't really do anything about.
Resistors.
Boltzmann wrote the equations that define noise in electronic systems, and everything is proportional to temperature.
Some resistors are quieter than others; but you can make a peavy work-horse amp sound a lot better by replacing all the resistors with high quality metal film resistors.
When some jackass tells me he can hear the difference changing an opamp makes, it makes me want to sell him silver speaker wire, lol. (also does nothing, btw.)
You Can radically change the noise specs for a lot of electronics, if you want; liquid nitrogen is what we use for the germanium detectors, it drops the noise to multi-electron levels.
Oh, and for anyone who thinks a Class D amp is quiet, you've either never heard a good amp, or expensive electronics are wasted on you, due to your hearing.
Look up how they work; they're a PWM with a cheap filter.
:rofl:
A half decent dac doesnt need to cost 200 let alone 2k
Just needs to be clean and no noise added. Amps on the other hand vary widely. Schitt paired with my hd800 was.. well shit. Too bright is the best way to describe it. Paired with a ifi micro sd for half the cost of the schitt amp i tried turned out to be amazing. Beyond that was a 2k tube amp which my ears said sound just a bit nicer, a woo amp but couldn't justify cost over a few sample songs which didnt reveal that much more to me.
Just needs to be clean and no noise added. Amps on the other hand vary widely. Schitt paired with my hd800 was.. well shit. Too bright is the best way to describe it. Paired with a ifi micro sd for half the cost of the schitt amp i tried turned out to be amazing. Beyond that was a 2k tube amp which my ears said sound just a bit nicer, a woo amp but couldn't justify cost over a few sample songs which didnt reveal that much more to me.
D
Deleted member 93354
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No actually they are still in over 90% of classical studios.
That said just about ALL drivers that get higher in frequency have dispersion issues. Some more than others.
The graph you site is 90 degrees off a is which is unreasonable in any setup unless you are using a very carefully set up [edit (noticed my typo after I reread it. Curse my lack of proofing)]dipolar like Martin Logan[/edit]. And then they would have dips and peaks on the low end.
For any further response graph anything below 3dB you can't perceive. However the thd is very respectable and the break up frequency of the tweeter is higher than jbl actives.
And saying any brand is better than another is a bit of high nose snobberly. You NEVER get to say your speaker setup is better than another. It's always a personal pref based on your music choice room setup and how you like your music presented. Smooth versus forward. Punchy versus delicate. It's a lot like art. Not everyone's taste match.
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pek
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For those of you who didn't read past the pretty chart, farther down in that thread there's a reference to an interesting page about op-amps & testing:
https://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/08/op-amp-measurements.html
https://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/08/op-amp-measurements.html
Dr. Righteous
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I always considered myself an audiophile but within reason. I worked in the electronics industry for 10 years so I know 90% is built in hype.
The idea of swapping out the op amps is nothing new. In fact there has been some products where the new generation was nothing but the same box using the newer, cleaner (lower THD, lower SNR) op amps that came to the market. I have an ancient BBE sonic maximizer; one of the first models produced. The later generations produced was the same box with much improved op amps. Better in every respect.
The idea of swapping out the op amps is nothing new. In fact there has been some products where the new generation was nothing but the same box using the newer, cleaner (lower THD, lower SNR) op amps that came to the market. I have an ancient BBE sonic maximizer; one of the first models produced. The later generations produced was the same box with much improved op amps. Better in every respect.
mygreeneggsandham
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Apparently the only thing missing from this test of audio equipment is the listening part. The whole point of audio equipment is to make pleasurable sounds for humans to subjectively enjoy. Merely showing that the opamp replicates all frequencies does not actually translate into sounding the same as another opamp that can replicate all frequencies. Not a helpful test of the audio equipment.
The reason I sold them was because I was indulged into Movie Sound and ended up blowing the tweeters twice ($1,000 each). Hence they were not suitable form may use case and I placed them in a much bigger room than they were meant for (140 square meters 4.5 meters high - HUGE volume).
Now the Danley's not only play louder (peak dynamics) they are also in a much smaller room (52 square meters 3 meters high).
Regarding bass management and the SH50s - they have 2 X 12" Woofers each and above 100Hz they hit hard in the stomach (like being in a club) but you NEED to set them up properly that's why I have made the custom stands but in any case bass is dependent A LOT in your room, speaker placement and what you have done with it. My "playroom" is mostly concrete + a double bricked wall (we don't use plasterboard a lot here) so it is very rigid with low vibrations.
Next step would be going with active crossovers through Metric Halo probably or whatever is equivalent when it is time.
I also cut them off at 80-100HZ and I use 2 Custom made sealed subs (a reputable member in AVS made them for me) that use 2X15" woofers each with a 5,000 Watts QSC amp + room correction software through J.River media center convolution. Here there are with serial numbers 0001 0002 and they are quite "odd looking". You can place a glass full of wine on them - crank them up at max and the glass will stay there. This pair is something I am never going to sell.
Here with the my old B&W 800Ds (they are passive but there is an active cooling system for the voice coils - pretty smart move by their designer)
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pek
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Listening will always be colored by perception, unless one's "golden ears" are regularly calibrated (and to which standard?), my ears/brain will interpret sounds differently than your's. Measurements can provide a baseline to start your search, as long as you relate measurements to your listening pleasure. That will take a lot of listening, and access to lots of equipment.
This.
That's why so many of the audio-fools seem to be unwilling to accept -- that having scientific measurements provides your listening with a rough sense of objectivity, so that when wanting to get more audio products (the curse of all who have been bitten by the audiophile bug, myself included), you have some idea of what you might like (like a baseline). It's not perfect (and current measurements don't cover every last thing), but it's a heck of a lot better than nothing at all. Otherwise, it's practically pure speculation and heavy marketing nonsense (and can lead to very costly mistakes). Sites like InnerFidelity (at least, back when Tyll ran things) and DIY Audio Heaven are giving us, the enthusiast consumers, a great service (to say nothing of NwAvGuy, who was fantastic in shaking up an industry chock-full of snake oil, if nothing else, and proved it with his simple, well-engineered, basic, and relatively cheap O2).
Or (to put it another way), what would you prefer? HardOCP (with no NVIDIA/etc NDAs signed), or the current incarnation of Tom's Hardware Guide (signing away everything including your mother, and then happily paying the COD by the author of the NDA)?
Side note: this is a great little survey that should give anyone a rough idea on what their preferences are, in terms of how "subjective" or "objective" they are being: https://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/about/subjectivist-objectivist-or-intermediativist/
D
Deleted member 93354
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Now you have my interest on the sub design. You say the glass stays there. Yet it sits on top of glass and appears to be directly under the driver which is firing upwards. How on EARTH do you keep a wine glass from shaking on a radiative source (the glass) with such large differentials is well beyond me
You could weight down a sub with sand (I stick mine on a massive decoupled sand base) But filling it will sand affects interior volume and that affects response and volume. A passive radiator would help some with this, but there would still be loss.
I'm very happy with my Velodyne DD. I never had to get super exotic as my theater is ~14x23. But I do have a couple thousand watts available to me.
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D
Deleted member 83233
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Maybe not even better or worse objectively either. I've heard some things that I thought didn't sound good, that the person in question thought was amazing. I'm sure the reverse has happened plenty of times too. I like the crisp highs of the older Mackie HR824s for example, whereas many people don't like them. A lot of people say they sound a bit metallic in the top of the range. To me it sounds clean and decisive which I like, provided it's not overpowering. I think I liked those more than some of the Adam lines that cost a ton more. (though I do think the A7s and S3As sound good in general) Everyone's ears are shaped differently, and everyone has a unique brain that was brought up and/or possibly trained under certain conditions. It will never align between two people perfectly. Maybe damned close, but not perfectly.
There are plenty of subtle differences to appreciate at all "tiers" until it reaches the stupid range. Just pick what you like, set it up how you like, and use it. The only time I'd say otherwise is for mastering. Get the flattest thing you can find, even if it's less interesting to the ear, and go from there. It's up to the listener to color things how they like through equipment, EQing, etc. I use Mackies and AKG 240MkIIs for this very reason. They're hardly top end, but I'm always happy with my mixes.
D
Deleted member 93354
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And that is purely subjective, thus not objectively measurable in science and where impressions can be artificially colored to say what ever the freak you want.
You may call it purple. To me it's fuscha
D
Deleted member 83233
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It's violet for fuck's sake!
pek
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Nope, blue and gold.
BloodyIron
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I approve of articles like this. It's a primary reason I do hardocp.
disemboweler
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Yeah, and what did we expect from "audiophiles"? You know, the ones who can't distinguish nostalgia from audio quality? Who fueled the completely insane "success" of Monster cables, when a coat-hanger-as-wire performs exactly the same?
I would like to see an "audiophile" actually prove they can distinguish anything but their own illusions in an independent scientific test, because I don't think they exist beyond being able to tell a record from a "decent" set of modern speakers and a CD... only the most obvious cases are actually ever backed up, AFAIK.
I would like to see an "audiophile" actually prove they can distinguish anything but their own illusions in an independent scientific test, because I don't think they exist beyond being able to tell a record from a "decent" set of modern speakers and a CD... only the most obvious cases are actually ever backed up, AFAIK.
noclevername
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Than there are smart people who learn how to make cables and save a shit load of money to have nice looking cables.
GoodBoy
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If that is same design as a pulse width modulated amp I built years ago, they add 0 noise, except in the analog to digital conversion phase. That's all low voltage (line input), and isn't difficult to engineer with excellent audio characteristics. The one I built was about 200khz base frequency square wave sent to the speaker, that was then time modulated with the audio information. The speaker itself did the digital back to analog conversion. Talk about low distortion. It sounds crazy how they work, but the one I had (got stolen out of my car) was amazing. I had the best car stereo you've ever heard (frequency response curve and fidelity wise, perhaps not volume, thought it was loud as hell...). The square wave is too fast to produce anything audible at 200khz. Sending the full power that cancels itself out to the speakers I suspect makes them more responsive.
Well the subs weigh 80Kg each and the reason you have no ramblings on them is because they use opposing drivers. Forces are canceled out. One woofer fires up and the other down at the bottom - it is also a sealed design.
Everything is custom in them (even the speakers were custom ordered and "binned". They go down to 10Hz outputting 120db IF you go the "Corner Loading" path and have a rigid room. It is a very special feeling in your vowels when movie scenes with such low passage are played.
I paid almos $10,000 for these to bring them from the US in Europe and they are really worth it. But if you want to see extreme here is another one that goes down to 1Hz and its going to cost you $27,000 each.
Yes this is a subwoofer and uses servos that makes the blades shift as it rotates. It only goes up to 30Hz but the manufacturer suggests a crossover at 20Hz. It is actually a machine that makes you feel "terror" when cranked up according to those who have seen it.
Have a look at their site (old and??) at the news section to see some applications for this thing.
http://www.eminent-tech.com
They're pretty bad. Great Abbey road uses it, but they're not in the majority of studios, not even close.
Maybe you need to read a little more on what makes a good speaker. Try the works of Olive and Toole. The 800D has bad on and off axis response and ranks low in blind testing for this reason.
Off axis matters to everyone in the room. The sound you hear is not just direct sound, though that's the most important part. If you just EQ a speaker flat, you may be making resonances and off axis response even worse. A speaker may measure flat on axis, but have bad off axis response, and you will hear that. Harman addresses this with their LSR waveguides in most of their modern studio speakers.
*CITATION NEEDED
They're really not. In the dozens of studios I've been in, I've yet to see anyone actually using them for mastering or production. Most places I know using them are used for listening after production is complete.
Direct radiators will have a narrowing bandwidth as frequency increases based on the diameter of the radiating area. The trick is using proper components, waveguides, and crossing at appropriate frequencies to keep the off axis response linear and as flat as possible. As you can see in the 800D off axis I posted earlier, it's anything but linear.
It's not just horrible at 90 degrees off axis. There's a huge off axis peak at around 5khz.
rofl, no.
Sure, there's taste, but there's also objectivity and accuracy, which your knowledge of is clearly lacking.
Dave is a hack. Not knocking your subs, but sonotube dual-opposed units are nothing new.
If you need active cooling on your coils, you're doing it wrong. But I guess that's what happens when you get cheap woofers from China
Wow, dave really nailed you in that deal. Sorry
120db at 10hz, you'd need at least 20-25db of room gain.....
Lol, rotary subs are not extreme. They're easily bested by conventional subs at a tenth of the cost with less space utilized. Their bandwidth is limited as is their output. Waste of time and money.
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Ermm...Dave did not nail me at all thank you very much I can check prices...my country customs plus shipping from the US did but money was not an issue then. Forget the prices you know in the US - it is totally different in Europe and we have a 24% VAT in my country now that is applicable even on shipping costs when importing.
120db @ 10Hz you do need that much gain (I agree) but I don't need 120db @ 10Hz - not anymore. Ok it's been 5 years since I did any measurements so unless I measure again I take this back.
Subwoofers from China??? Dave was not using such woofers on those to be honest (I remember the whole process) - and the active cooling is not required. They are working fine without it.
Anyway, you are welcome to discuss it with him on AVS. I repsect that you two do not get along very well.
120db @ 10Hz you do need that much gain (I agree) but I don't need 120db @ 10Hz - not anymore. Ok it's been 5 years since I did any measurements so unless I measure again I take this back.
Subwoofers from China??? Dave was not using such woofers on those to be honest (I remember the whole process) - and the active cooling is not required. They are working fine without it.
Anyway, you are welcome to discuss it with him on AVS. I repsect that you two do not get along very well.
... 10k for 4x 15s in sonotubes... oooook lol.
So which woofers did he use in those? Last I was aware they were all coming from a small shop in cn.
In the EU there are great mfrs like B&C, 18sound, and others, oh well I guess.
pgwalsh
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JargonGR - I'm sure shipping and taxe's were an arm and a leg and that's unfortunate. $10,000 is a lot of money for 2 dual opposed, but they look really nice.
I built 2 dual opposed 15's with MFW 15's from when AV123 went belly-up. I paid $75 for each driver and they sound great. Those 4 drivers blend really well with my Maelstrom 21" that I built into an ottman. They weren't as purdy has JargonGR's sub, but all in, including amps, I spent less than $2500.
The 21 vs 15".
You don't have to spend a lot of money to get good bass.
My next project will be 4 x 18" marty subs, well after I build my Statement II's.
You don't have to blow a lot of money on audio equipment to get great sound, but if you do and you can afford it and that's what you want and like then that's great. No criticism from me.
I built 2 dual opposed 15's with MFW 15's from when AV123 went belly-up. I paid $75 for each driver and they sound great. Those 4 drivers blend really well with my Maelstrom 21" that I built into an ottman. They weren't as purdy has JargonGR's sub, but all in, including amps, I spent less than $2500.
The 21 vs 15".
You don't have to spend a lot of money to get good bass.
My next project will be 4 x 18" marty subs, well after I build my Statement II's.
You don't have to blow a lot of money on audio equipment to get great sound, but if you do and you can afford it and that's what you want and like then that's great. No criticism from me.
RIP Maelstroms.... Kevin got screwed hard....
built these for a friend, dual-opposed 18s, under 1.5k
built these for another friend... 4x b&c 21s tuned to 16hz to fit behind his curved screen, or they'd be a bit larger...
commissioneranthony
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Good ol Burr Brown Op-amps
Where are you going to get cones from a bankrupt company?
Man too much to delete lol. Anyways true, off axis response does sometime suffer poor response characteristics after EQ is applied (tho this mainly applies to increasing PEQ versus reducing) but if that were the case I’d just throw away the monitor. I’m not going to use it if I can’t EQ itThey're pretty bad. Great Abbey road uses it, but they're not in the majority of studios, not even close.
Maybe you need to read a little more on what makes a good speaker. Try the works of Olive and Toole. The 800D has bad on and off axis response and ranks low in blind testing for this reason.
Off axis matters to everyone in the room. The sound you hear is not just direct sound, though that's the most important part. If you just EQ a speaker flat, you may be making resonances and off axis response even worse. A speaker may measure flat on axis, but have bad off axis response, and you will hear that. Harman addresses this with their LSR waveguides in most of their modern studio speakers.
*CITATION NEEDED
They're really not. In the dozens of studios I've been in, I've yet to see anyone actually using them for mastering or production. Most places I know using them are used for listening after production is complete.
Direct radiators will have a narrowing bandwidth as frequency increases based on the diameter of the radiating area. The trick is using proper components, waveguides, and crossing at appropriate frequencies to keep the off axis response linear and as flat as possible. As you can see in the 800D off axis I posted earlier, it's anything but linear.
It's not just horrible at 90 degrees off axis. There's a huge off axis peak at around 5khz.
rofl, no.
Sure, there's taste, but there's also objectivity and accuracy, which your knowledge of is clearly lacking.
Dave is a hack. Not knocking your subs, but sonotube dual-opposed units are nothing new.
If you need active cooling on your coils, you're doing it wrong. But I guess that's what happens when you get cheap woofers from China
Wow, dave really nailed you in that deal. Sorry
120db at 10hz, you'd need at least 20-25db of room gain.....
Lol, rotary subs are not extreme. They're easily bested by conventional subs at a tenth of the cost with less space utilized. Their bandwidth is limited as is their output. Waste of time and money.
Does the B&W monitors exhibit poor off axis resonance? I thought they would show very little with the HF being in a bubble type enclosure.
cageymaru
Fully [H]
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Lots of companies sell recones as most speakers aren't full custom. They might be custom as in picking magnet A, cone C, and voice coil D. But most are taking off the shelf parts and making their speakers.
These guys will custom make you most anything. There are plenty of other companies that can do the same.
https://fixmyspeaker.com/
Guys sure you can build cabins for less and conceal them in a dedicated room - but when I got them looks and finish was important since they were not concealed but were part of the living room. The amount of work that has gone in to these cabins ha nothing to do with pure MDF boxes and basic paint. It was certainly worth the money (custom extruded PVC cylinder, bampoo + design idea) and back then no single commercial unit @ $3,000 each would outperform it & produce the clean sound I wanted and at the levels I wanted. I also got a BASSIS equalizer in the package that is now listing for $950 in the US (without taxes) and it does a great job with the curves and the manual Dave provided. I played around with many high-end subs back then before I got them and did a lot of research along with DIY with huge $1800 18" drivers and decided against it.
The internet is full of threads about Dave and his subwoofers with a lot of haters and lovers. But that is how it always goes.
The internet is full of threads about Dave and his subwoofers with a lot of haters and lovers. But that is how it always goes.