kirbyrj
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Perceived relative value... good for you...bad for me.
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The GeForce RTX 2080 Ti is Too Damn High! @ [H]
- Thread starter FrgMstr
- Start date
Perceived relative value... good for you...bad for me.
Nvidia employs economists to price products. They're better at doing that then everyone who buys those products. You sound angry at how Nvidia priced it. Ever volunteer to take a pay cut?
I can afford it.. not buying it.. no big deal.
kirbyrj
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I'm not angry. But what was a will buy at sub $800-900 turned into a pass at $1200. I have no idea what your "paycut" comment is about.
happymedium
Gawd
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With 71 % of America s living in the middle to upper class brackets, I believe 61,000 is the New middle class income as of a month ago, I don't see why people can afford a $1000 video card if they want it.
71% = about 275 million people,if only 25% of them game ,thats like 63 million people.
And thats just here in the U.S. .
Problem is ,only 1 percent of them have 4k monitors that would actually need a 2080ti.
That's still 630,000 potential sales. At 1200 a card thats
756 million dollars.
Just saying.
71% = about 275 million people,if only 25% of them game ,thats like 63 million people.
And thats just here in the U.S. .
Problem is ,only 1 percent of them have 4k monitors that would actually need a 2080ti.
That's still 630,000 potential sales. At 1200 a card thats
756 million dollars.
Just saying.
I'm not entirely sure what your point here is. Yes, there's a huge market in the "middle class," that is basically to say the median, but you do NOT need a 2080Ti in order to play games on the PC. It helps if you want 4k and max settings, but you certainly don't need it. This is a luxury good. There's plenty of GPUs and even consoles that will provide plenty of enjoyment for far less money.With 71 % of America s living in the middle to upper class brackets, I believe 61,000 is the New middle class income as of a month ago, I don't see why people can afford a $1000 video card if they want it.
71% = about 275 million people,if only 25% of them game ,thats like 63 million people.
And thats just here in the U.S. .
Problem is ,only 1 percent of them have 4k monitors that would actually need a 2080ti.
That's still 630,000 potential sales. At 1200 a card thats
756 million dollars.
Just saying.
A product stack that stops at the "middle class" or median is failing to address the entire market.
cybereality
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To be honest, sometimes I wonder about the whole PC gaming thing. When everything works, it's great, but I probably spend more time messing with settings and dealing with bugs than actually playing games.
And PS4 Pro / Xbox One X look nice on a 4K TV. For much less money and agita you can be actually playing games rather than doing technical troubleshooting for yourself.
And PS4 Pro / Xbox One X look nice on a 4K TV. For much less money and agita you can be actually playing games rather than doing technical troubleshooting for yourself.
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Zarathustra[H]
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Keep in mind, that's household income. So, potentially two working adults make this much combined, in a household where there might be kids (which are extremely expensive to have). Median individual income is just above $30k ($32k?)
Is this enough to live a comfortable life and also spend thousands on non-essential computer hardware? I guess that depends on where you live.
If you live around here (Greater Boston area) , having the classic middle class life, you know, owning and paying a mortgage on a modest home, owning two used but reliable non-fancy domestic cars, putting 2.1 kids through school and being able to save for college, as well as saving for retirement and also being able to occasionally take a nice family vacation somewhere. This would probably require having a household with two professionals each earning ~$125k+. So a household income of $250k.
Maybe if you live somewhere out in the boonies, where living is cheap,a $32k individual income or a $61k household income leaves enough of a budget surplus to be able to afford the occasional luxury GPU, but around here, that's barely scraping by, working poor levels of income, staying awake at night worrying about what on earth you'll ever do if your car needs unexpected costly maintenance, and you can no longer drive to work, because you don't have the $400 it would take to fix it.
Zarathustra[H]
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What games have you been playing? I haven't experienced a single problem with the last 10+ titles I've purchased on steam. Ever since I ditched SLI it's been smooth sailing. Both SLI and Crossfire were a constant disaster of buggy crap, hacks and workarounds though.
I see nvidia prices as due for a correction. sure, lots of early adopters will buy these, but I see them as just too damn expensive for average game enthusiast. they priced these cards for the datamining crowd and without them, I don't think they will have much of a market.
Not all fabrication processes are equal; 10nm at company A does not spin nearly the same as company B. I think it was David Kanter who wrote a pretty good article about this a few years back. Global Foundries has been inferior to TSMC since at least the mid-2000s, and TSMC in turn trails Intel and Samsung. Problem for companies using TSMC (including AMD/Nvidia) is the Taiwanese company tends to over-promise a lot on their new processes. This has caused Nvidia numerous headaches and botched/missed launches in the past.
My main point was, now AMD and Nvidia are on mostly equal footing in terms of silicon production. For now, Nvidia is still the more important customer to TSMC, but that could change. There was a time when Intel and Microsoft seemed unbeatable and 3dfx ruled the graphics roost.
You’re right. I just brought up Intel’s previous ray-tracing efforts because of the current gpu climate. Intel announcing a new discrete gpu (that’s not due for at least 1.5 years rofl
Both AMD and nvidia have been using TSMC as its main provider since like forever. Nvidia went with IBM (I think it was NV30) at one time and samsung for low end cards IIRC and only recently AMD went with GloFo. So the fabrication process for the most part has been exactly the same.
STEM
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Randall Stephens
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STEM
Gawd
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Love the dick to the left of the speaker
The dick is actually his signature...
Gideon
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Id say based on the fact that you can go just about anywhere and get a 2080 at the moment, that the pricing is in fact far too high. Will see how the Ti fairs when they actually release some out, but I have a feeling Nvidia yields might be the bigger limiting factor. Always funny tho that so many want to blame AMD for these high prices, simply dont buy the cards and trust me Nvidia will mark them down quick as no company can afford a massive revenue drop off for long.
Pricing is ridiculous. I'm sure the change to truing was hard and paving the way costs some money but if you really want to push adoption go for the long term ROE vs overnight. The pre orders and such were probably quite good for them, but long term price sustainability now that Mining is not as "hot" as it was when the 1080's launched will probably keep a lot of people away.
I was playing Ring of Elysium with a friend tonight, I can get my 1080 Ti at 2126 MHz in that game for now and at 1920 x 1200 I was a steady 10 to 20 FPS over his 2080 GTX most of the night. A few dips aligned us or put me a bit below for a short blip but most of the time I was well above. He came from a 560 so still a great upgrade for him but still...
I was playing Ring of Elysium with a friend tonight, I can get my 1080 Ti at 2126 MHz in that game for now and at 1920 x 1200 I was a steady 10 to 20 FPS over his 2080 GTX most of the night. A few dips aligned us or put me a bit below for a short blip but most of the time I was well above. He came from a 560 so still a great upgrade for him but still...
cybereality
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So, I should qualify the statement I made. I'm doing crazy stuff with my setups, one with a 55" 4K TV, and another with triple 1440p 3D Vision Surround. For the 4K TV, I would be okay with a single 1080 Ti or 2080 Ti, so that's not much of an issue. However, I am running Crossfire as I wanted to run Vega on that machine and 1 card was not enough for 4K. On the Nvidia machine (w/ the 3 monitors) it's running at 7680x1440 144Hz (also also 3D, if I can get it to work). So most of the problems are self-inflicted, especially since 3D doesn't always work, and Surround has it's own set of issues, add SLI into the mix and I'll be lucky if my Windows desktop functions properly. I know you can say "Just get a single monitor and no fancy business" or whatever, but the whole point of PC gaming for me is living on the edge. If I wanted to just game normally, I'd get a nice TV/projector and play on my PS4. But I still do the PC thing because *when it works* it is GLORIOUS.
kirbyrj
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I was thinking the same thing. I think the 2080 has been in stock since day 1.
ScottSummers79
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I remember driving to two different Best Buys on launch day for the GeForce 4 Ti 4600 and spending $1200 + tax for three of them. I remember how everyone looked at us like we were insane when we got back home and were so happy & proud of being able to get three of them.
I remember shortly thereafter thinking that spending any more than that would have been really insane and kind of setting a hard limit (that I've broken just one time since when I bought a 1080 for $425) that $400 was going to be my card of choice moving forward.
The concept of spending that much for one card is just outside of my hitbox, even if my disposable income has increased by more than the CPI has in the same length of time.
I remember shortly thereafter thinking that spending any more than that would have been really insane and kind of setting a hard limit (that I've broken just one time since when I bought a 1080 for $425) that $400 was going to be my card of choice moving forward.
The concept of spending that much for one card is just outside of my hitbox, even if my disposable income has increased by more than the CPI has in the same length of time.
The chart gives me this to consider:
What was the performance increase from the 980ti to the 1080ti, with roughly the same price?
What is the performance increase form the 1080ti to the 2080 ti, with a $500 increase in price?
Let's even go back a generation, with the performance difference between the 780ti and the 980ti, with an inflation-adjusted reduction in price?
What was the performance increase from the 980ti to the 1080ti, with roughly the same price?
What is the performance increase form the 1080ti to the 2080 ti, with a $500 increase in price?
Let's even go back a generation, with the performance difference between the 780ti and the 980ti, with an inflation-adjusted reduction in price?
Furious_Styles
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Kyle covers that some in the 2080 ti 1440p preview.
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All you need to make your own chart is below.
Here https://www.hardocp.com/article/2018/08/07/nvidia_gpu_generational_performance_part_2/
and
Here https://www.hardocp.com/article/2018/09/23/asus_rog_strix_rtx_2080_ti_1440p_preview/
1Nocturnal101
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Your charts are missing the 9000 series, and for comparison, Why not throw in Workstation cards as well as the Titan series, considering RTX cards are half the Die has specialized Workstation clusters...…………………
Yes they are expensive...………………….
Get over it,
Gaming is getting expensive while they just torched their entire pricing structure of the Workstation lines 2 of the new Turing G series($18)k rivals the power of an 80k Workstation supercomputer, the 2080 TI benchmarking destroys a $3k Titan V for under half its cost, Honestly your getting off cheap for what these puppies can do besides gaming, Wait till programs and windows itself starts leveraging computational power from Tensor then it will be a shit show like a mining craze but for any Industry that can use them and get away cheap.
You have to come to the conclusion, IF you have been around long enough to see technology evolve from its earlier days, that in order for graphics to evolve further we need 2 things...………….
1- Optimize Software and allow easier integration of technologies to reduce development overhead.
2- Evolve Chips themselves, 7nm is at a stonewall without UVL working properly, from here, Moore's Law is dead, to make performance you will not be able to rely on die shrinks instead, you are going to have to specialize areas of the chips to compute separate graphical abilities, to be honest this almost sounds like a step backwards from the day in age where we had to switch to Universal Shaders, but specialized hardware for specific tasks will equate to a more optimized experience.
..any way you are going to dice this up it will become more expensive
..…...Rt/Tensor/………...and what ever else, Physx cores? Hairworks Cores? AI(Deep Learning) cores? ………….How much in 20 years will a GPU be MXM Chip on Chip cluster nodes of separate individualized workstation clusters? It will cost a fortune.
Either Way when Ampere was first announced I called the Tensor Cores would eventually make their way to Consumer gaming GPUs, people argued out their teeth saying it would never happen either way we are here with Tensor cores and an overly expensive GPU people are complaining about.
I am going to call this next, Instead of Universal Shaders, there will be looking at Universal Computational Cores, where AMD, Intel, Nvidia will have to flatten the playing field to move forward. Microsoft will have to overhaul DX again, with a mess of plugins that allow developers to allocate various intensive computations to whatever clusters they need to access..
Yes they are expensive...………………….
Get over it,
Gaming is getting expensive while they just torched their entire pricing structure of the Workstation lines 2 of the new Turing G series($18)k rivals the power of an 80k Workstation supercomputer, the 2080 TI benchmarking destroys a $3k Titan V for under half its cost, Honestly your getting off cheap for what these puppies can do besides gaming, Wait till programs and windows itself starts leveraging computational power from Tensor then it will be a shit show like a mining craze but for any Industry that can use them and get away cheap.
You have to come to the conclusion, IF you have been around long enough to see technology evolve from its earlier days, that in order for graphics to evolve further we need 2 things...………….
1- Optimize Software and allow easier integration of technologies to reduce development overhead.
2- Evolve Chips themselves, 7nm is at a stonewall without UVL working properly, from here, Moore's Law is dead, to make performance you will not be able to rely on die shrinks instead, you are going to have to specialize areas of the chips to compute separate graphical abilities, to be honest this almost sounds like a step backwards from the day in age where we had to switch to Universal Shaders, but specialized hardware for specific tasks will equate to a more optimized experience.
..any way you are going to dice this up it will become more expensive
..…...Rt/Tensor/………...and what ever else, Physx cores? Hairworks Cores? AI(Deep Learning) cores? ………….How much in 20 years will a GPU be MXM Chip on Chip cluster nodes of separate individualized workstation clusters? It will cost a fortune.
Either Way when Ampere was first announced I called the Tensor Cores would eventually make their way to Consumer gaming GPUs, people argued out their teeth saying it would never happen either way we are here with Tensor cores and an overly expensive GPU people are complaining about.
I am going to call this next, Instead of Universal Shaders, there will be looking at Universal Computational Cores, where AMD, Intel, Nvidia will have to flatten the playing field to move forward. Microsoft will have to overhaul DX again, with a mess of plugins that allow developers to allocate various intensive computations to whatever clusters they need to access..
Chris_B
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UK retailers sticking the dick in hard, these cards were ALL priced around £200 to £300 (about $270 to $400) cheaper last week. Gouging at its finest.
1Nocturnal101
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Honestly judging by the way the industry is reacting to this, I am going to say this will spread like wildfire, Peterson from Nvidia stated anything that can use TAA currently can have DLSS added easily, so we are probably looking at seeing this sideloaded into past games as well. The Industry is more excited about this than gamers are. Which is freaking weird.
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If you read, we tell you that.
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Well, you have to actually let gamers use it to get excited about it. Bird in the hand, and all that. That said, bring it on, I want to see it in action assuredly. DLSS is what I am excited about most for these RTX cards actually.
1Nocturnal101
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Apply Inflation for the gap....I'm willing to bet you almost did....lol
Criticalhitkoala
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Ah yes...by the name..."Does not say titan on it". Also a ti hasn't come out at the same time as a 80 varient of the card I believe in the last 6~7 years. It's as obvious it's a replacement for the titan (which has always had absurd point of entry prices) as it isn't. It's completely arguable, but when you release 2 products at the same time, it's smart to charge more for the highest tiered product cause someone is gonna want it.
I really don't under this "Fuck Nvidia" thing. It literally is a LUXURY item paid with expendable income. It's not bullshit at all. Most anyone who is pissed is just pissed cause they want to have the latest, but think they shouldn't have to spend their money for it.
Guess what...you have every right to not spend money on it...cause it's your Money. Why get your panties in a wad and write "Fuck this company" when they best way to do that is not spend your money. But if enough other people find that the price is justifiable to the product they get, maybe the problem isn't Nvidia but rather because you've reached your threshold of what you want to pay. So the true person you should say fuck you to is yourself for not wanting to put out
1Nocturnal101
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Ah yes...by the name..."Does not say titan on it". Also a ti hasn't come out at the same time as a 80 varient of the card I believe in the last 6~7 years. It's as obvious it's a replacement for the titan (which has always had absurd point of entry prices) as it isn't. It's completely arguable, but when you release 2 products at the same time, it's smart to charge more for the highest tiered product cause someone is gonna want it.
I really don't under this "Fuck Nvidia" thing. It literally is a LUXURY item paid with expendable income. It's not bullshit at all. Most anyone who is pissed is just pissed cause they want to have the latest, but think they shouldn't have to spend their money for it.
Guess what...you have every right to not spend money on it...cause it's your Money. Why get your panties in a wad and write "Fuck this company" when they best way to do that is not spend your money. But if enough other people find that the price is justifiable to the product they get, maybe the problem isn't Nvidia but rather because you've reached your threshold of what you want to pay. So the true person you should say fuck you to is yourself for not wanting to put out
I think people gravitate with the whole Appleitis, meaning people, most, are consumers, but they want to feel like they are prosumers while still paying consumer prices very rarely will they justify their purchase as legit, at least not without crying about it.
The bottom line is Marketing from NVidia Blows, they are the complete worst at this,
These are Prosumer products, Prices are well anywhere, if you might regret purchasing these products you probably aren't the intended market segment, I mean you don't buy a 911 and bitch at the fact the Ceramic brakes cost $13k, you should have known what you were getting into. In computers this was always the case.
2008 I built a Asus Striker Extreme 775 with a Q6600 3.0ghz on a Thermaltake V1, 4Gb CorsairDom 1066 DDR2, 2x 150GB WDRaptor X Raid 0, 2x XFX8800Ultra XXX, Vista 64bit - for all that money I had a paper weight for 2 weeks till drivers and Microsoft got there act together, It comes with the territory and bleeding edge prosumer tech is always rough.
supastar1568
Limp Gawd
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Prediction......Nvida shadow launches a GTX 2080 and a GTX 2080ti with pricing and performance that lines up with traditional past-generation releases...
That will happen, right? right?
That will happen, right? right?
kirbyrj
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Ah yes...by the name..."Does not say titan on it". Also a ti hasn't come out at the same time as a 80 varient of the card I believe in the last 6~7 years. It's as obvious it's a replacement for the titan (which has always had absurd point of entry prices) as it isn't. It's completely arguable, but when you release 2 products at the same time, it's smart to charge more for the highest tiered product cause someone is gonna want it.
I really don't under this "Fuck Nvidia" thing. It literally is a LUXURY item paid with expendable income. It's not bullshit at all. Most anyone who is pissed is just pissed cause they want to have the latest, but think they shouldn't have to spend their money for it.
Guess what...you have every right to not spend money on it...cause it's your Money. Why get your panties in a wad and write "Fuck this company" when they best way to do that is not spend your money. But if enough other people find that the price is justifiable to the product they get, maybe the problem isn't Nvidia but rather because you've reached your threshold of what you want to pay. So the true person you should say fuck you to is yourself for not wanting to put out
Lets cut right through the bullshit...
Look right here at this article.
780Ti - Baseline performance - $699
980Ti - 30-40% increased performance - $649
1080Ti - 70% increased performance - $699
2080Ti - 30-40% increased performance - _________
What would you expect to fill in this blank with? If you said $1199, you'd be lying.
You're creating a strawman by saying that, "Most anyone who is pissed is just pissed cause they want to have the latest, but think they shouldn't have to spend their money for it." I have no problem spending money, but as the saying goes, "A fool and his money are soon parted." I think the $1199 price tag is bullshit for the relative performance compared to their own pricing structure over the past 3 generations of GPU's. The fact that the 2080 non-Ti is readily available 5 days after launch certainly shows there isn't a high demand for it at its current pricing. Nvidia has always thrown around the Titan name whenever they felt like it...including two different Pascal Titans. If they wanted to call it a Titan, they would have. And if we were talking about a Titan, I wouldn't have a problem with the $1200 price tag. I would assume that a few months down the road a reasonably priced Titan alternative "Ti" card would be coming out. However, I see nothing except perhaps a more ludicrously priced Titan in the future.
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demondrops
Limp Gawd
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but is gtx still a thing or is rtx replacement for gtx. or do they just release mining cards later or was rtx suposed to be use for mining also?Prediction......Nvida shadow launches a GTX 2080 and a GTX 2080ti with pricing and performance that lines up with traditional past-generation releases...
That will happen, right? right?
CAD4466HK
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SixFootDuo
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Hey, isn't that the Son from Big Love?
SixFootDuo
Supreme [H]ardness
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Hey, I knew ahead of time PC hardware is much more expensive over in Europe. I used to buy hardware for guys that worked at Funcom years and years ago. They would pay US prices, skip VAT and avoid the insane pricing there. It wasn't a ton of hardware but over 2 or 3 years, maybe $2500 dollars was spent. These guys were in Oslo Norway.
The 8800GTX replaced the 7900GTX as nVidia's high end single GPU card. The 8800 Ultra version came out six month later with just higher clocks than the 8800 GTX but due to its higher price, they coexisted. Same number of functional units, same 768 MB of memory and same display configuration as the 8800 GTX. When the 8800 GTX was released, so was the 8800 GTS which replaced the 7900 GT. The 8800 GTS used a cut down G80 die.
I did make a bit of a mistake, there were two version of the 8800 GTS that were released. The G80 had 320 MB or 640 MB of memory where as the G92 based one had 512 MB. The G92 got a boost in clock speeds and a memory upgrade to 512 MB to become the 9800 GTX which then replaced the aging 8800 GTX and 8800 Ultra. I recall the 9800 GTX being generally faster than the G80 based 8800 GTX unless the extra 128 MB of memory came into play.
Chris_B
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The pricing over here is fucking ridiculous, virtually every TI card with the exception of a few is well over TitanXP pricing.
Not to mention the retailers and etailers digging their claws into the convenient shortage of the TI cards presently. Same song and dance virtually every time a new gpu comes out, the consumers get fucked hard.
Criticalhitkoala
[H]ard|Gawd
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So just because it's not called Titan, Nvidia shouldn't charge what they want for it? Seemingly they owe something to us that a TI should never be above $1k, and if it is, then it should be named a titan?
A company can charge whatever they want for a product. It's that simple. What's also a truth is you can pay whatever you want for that product. You can decide you want it, or you can decide you don't. This isn't insulin medicine that you need to survive, it's a video card so you can get 20fps more in PubG.
What's in the name anyways? It's just a label. There's no graphics card law that says
"Article 86905: If a company charges this much more Money, they CANNOT use the naming structure of another card from the past".
I think you are getting hung up on a name, and thinking anything within that name structure should fit under relatively the same price.
I personally think Nvidia naming it the 2080ti is epicly stupid. Name it a Titan, and people would jump on it cause they want that premium. But it really honestly doesn't make a difference what they name it, cause it's a different product then the 2080 in terms of performance. I think Nvidia shot themselves in the foot though because now Titan pricing will be astronomically higher, and they effectively killed the 8~10 month hype of a TI card coming up that people were waiting to swallow up. The 1080ti did great cause it CREAMED the rest of the field and was worth the premium. What's Nvidia gonna release now? the 2080titty?
There is also the x factor of having a brand new technology that hasn't been tested yet in the Ray Tracing. Looking ayour numbers above, what if we find that
780Ti - Baseline performance in Ray Tracing- $699
980Ti - 5% increased performance in Ray Tracing - $649
1080Ti - 10% increase performance in raytracing - $699
2080Ti - 650% increased performance - ___________________
What would you charge then?