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South Korea May Make Sexual Harassment in Online Games Punishable by Law
- Thread starter Megalith
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spikeline
Weaksauce
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Man, it would be really cool once this becomes an offense with real-money fines attached to it. It could become a revenue stream for the government and all the state-enthusiasts could also pay into the inevitable offence quotas that get legislated into permanence. If you object, you're a bigot. If you don't pay, you're a bigot. The burden of proof would be so low, because you could literally overlay text into a game-play video. I wholeheartedly support this brilliant plan to reduce deficits. I am also from Canada though, we like that sort of thing up here apparently.
velusip
[H]ard|Gawd
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It's strange to think that in Korea you can legally sexually harass someone afk, but not in game. Games are sacred.
What makes you think that is a true statement?
Exactly this. Bans, especially soft ones, do nothing to address the underlying problem. It's the anonymity that makes people feel invincible, and until you strip that away you aren't going to solve anything.
Remember boys and girls, If you are talking to a guy, it is just shit talk. However if it turns out they were actually a girl IRL, then it is sexual harassment because double standards and such. You aren't allowed to assume everyone on the internet is male any longer.
Absolutely disgusting law being pushed by disgusting people.
Absolutely disgusting law being pushed by disgusting people.
Except it's not and sexual harassment also happens to men.
Hagrid
[H]F Junkie
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I remember sexual harassment in real life. Woman grabbed my front. You know what I did? Laughed. So did everbody else. We all knew each other and back then had way less snowflakes.
So... You're confirming that sexual harassment does happen to men. Good for you that you laughed, I guess? What if that happened to your daughter or wife? or mom? Would that be your same reaction -- would you expect her to laugh it off? Or would you get mad and want justice? Then again, I suppose that would make you a snowflake.
Sure hand over your SS to another none government company. I am sure nothing could go wrong. They will surely keep it secure. Also now you take something harmless online into the real world cause you could find where the offering party lives and go kill them. People just need thicker skin.
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M76
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If it happened in a videogame? Then it's not real, get over it. Yes, absolutely do something about trolls in games, Making it part of criminal law is just stupid. These things should be handled by the service provider who wants to provide a decent service.
NeoNemesis
2[H]4U
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I agree with you in part, but the South Korean identification system they've put in place is ludicrously convoluted and makes doing anything online a complete pain in the ass.
I lived in Korea for 6 years.
RanceJustice
Supreme [H]ardness
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I oppose this sort of law for many reasons. First, it essentially makes saying rude things online, illegal - curtailing freedom of speech. Of course since they target "sexual harassment" and not all offensive comments, they are now selecting out what rude speech is somehow permissible and what is not. The recipient of the rude speech will also likely play a role here, from various double standards in society around gender (ie saying X to a man is just being a jerk, saying X to a woman is considered sexual harassment, both in mindset of the recipient and society in general. Furthermore, the potential disparity in the same sort of insult in terms of societal response where the aggressor is a male and the recipient a female, versus a female aggressor and male recipient.) as well as the ability of the recipient to decide if they felt harassed or not and what the societal and legal response to that might be. Lets remember that when we're talking about online gaming "sexual harassment" only comes down to words from across the screen - there is no possibility of groping, assault, or physical harm nor viable threat thereof simply from making a rude comment (in the rare cases someone makes a credible threat backed up by evidence suggesting to take their grievance into the real world, there are already stalking laws and the like, restraining orders etc as there should be). In most other cases, games give players the chance to mute or ignore those they dislike for any reason and there's always a second level of GM interaction for repeat offenses; while this won't handle every single circumstance, it will certainly help with the vast majority. If there are other special circumstance (ie harassment of people in person on the pro circuit or between teammates, that's an entirely different issue) that can be handled, but in general I can see that the potential downsides of this policy massively eclipse the benefits.
Ever since the rise of the corporate, "Web 2.0" Internet and especially the arrival of Facebook, there has been a desire by business and governments alike to merge meatspace and cyberspace , abolishing anonymity and trying to impose the limitations of one onto the other. In many ways, this is actually harmful to society overall and the health of the Internet. Now many countries barrel towards a future where online presence is simply an extension of offline presence and that is a horrible thing, counteracting the good that the Internet can do. When it comes to childish people saying stupid things over text or voice chat in game, I'm not a fan of that. However, it can be up to every community to generally police what conduct they wish to allow and the ramification thereof. There is certainly worth a discussion where monolithic companies like Facebook , Twitter, Google and others become de-facto public squares because of their size and reach and want both the best benefits of being both private and public when it suits them, but what Korea here is suggesting seems to come close to a First Amendment violation if it was implemented in the US. And yes, I know that some will claim that "Harassment is not protected speech" but lets not forget why "sexual harassment" laws are (in many cases - especially those governing non-physical and without credible threatening intent) limited to the workplaces where both parties are compelled to be to make their living and why saying the very same thing to someone at work that would justifiably land you a trip to HR would, if said to someone in a bar or other social situation, may at worst simply result in being dismissed and thought of as a jerk. However, even these situations are different from something taking place online - especially in a game - and we need to recognize that.
If we claim to value free speech and anonymity (and frankly I'm bothered by the comments that seem to imply it is a problem), we need to take the good with the bad. The same anonymity that protects whistleblowers, allows people to find others who share their interests without judgment, and grants people the ability to speak their mind without fear of reprisal, can also be used by those who want to troll, be jerks, manipulate , or perhaps just blow off steam. Just like the First Amendment means that Neo Nazi and KKK also get to peacefully assemble and speak their views without persecution, we need to have enough fortitude to realize that the most important tenets of society are only window dressing if they can be wiped away from whomever some elements of society find disreputable, from neo-nazis to black trans prostitute activists.
The idea that someone saying a mean remark, of the sexual nature or otherwise, via a video game actually being culpable for punishment by the government seems dystopian, and in fact requires the kind of dystopian monitoring that will be necessary to attribute the avatar to the account holder. This means allowing governments, with the help of private games companies, to have full access to the data of any player so they can identify when someone does the "bad" thing. Imagine if every time someone reported you (even for what today would be considered generally innocuous, reports in bad faith etc) in World of Warcraft, Blizzard would be given a subpoena and forced to turn over your payment information; soon a summons or ticket would come to your house claiming you in violation of morality statute X and depending on its severity, you'd need to pay a ticket or show up to court? That alone would be insane, now picture that escalated to what any accusation of sexual harassment or impropriety involves! Of course, anyone who has lived since the passage of the Patriot Act knows, that the corporate and government powers that be won't just stick to its intended usage, but instead use these powers for unrelated targets - such as disrupting social and political movements and/or parallel construction to take down a thorn in someone's side.
Ultimately, this just seems like the wrong direction. We do not need to treat anonymity like the enemy nor do we need to squash what makes the Internet great because there will be some challenges. There are other ways to approach the issue of people being jerks, harassment, and more online and frankly if we need laws for anything it is GDPR style "right to be forgotten" laws; which can take down offending personal content that is not vastly in the public interest. As a society we're just beginning to see the massive problems that come from everyone's identities - especially real world identities - being perpetually under scrutiny and always available . My generation was probably the last one that, as things go, was able to make mistakes and not have it captured forever and attributed to them for eternity - a major issue. Combine this with a culture that is meshing and equating online and offline and generally suspicious of anonymity.. that's not a good thing. There's far more to discuss including the change in expectations for insulting or harassing content and the perpetual seeming viability for those offended by it in certain circumstances, but I've written too much already. In any event, this just seems like the wrong path.
Note: In the event there is some Korean cultural element here that would somehow greatly differ from the North American / USA implementation of which I wrote, I'd be curious to know.
Ever since the rise of the corporate, "Web 2.0" Internet and especially the arrival of Facebook, there has been a desire by business and governments alike to merge meatspace and cyberspace , abolishing anonymity and trying to impose the limitations of one onto the other. In many ways, this is actually harmful to society overall and the health of the Internet. Now many countries barrel towards a future where online presence is simply an extension of offline presence and that is a horrible thing, counteracting the good that the Internet can do. When it comes to childish people saying stupid things over text or voice chat in game, I'm not a fan of that. However, it can be up to every community to generally police what conduct they wish to allow and the ramification thereof. There is certainly worth a discussion where monolithic companies like Facebook , Twitter, Google and others become de-facto public squares because of their size and reach and want both the best benefits of being both private and public when it suits them, but what Korea here is suggesting seems to come close to a First Amendment violation if it was implemented in the US. And yes, I know that some will claim that "Harassment is not protected speech" but lets not forget why "sexual harassment" laws are (in many cases - especially those governing non-physical and without credible threatening intent) limited to the workplaces where both parties are compelled to be to make their living and why saying the very same thing to someone at work that would justifiably land you a trip to HR would, if said to someone in a bar or other social situation, may at worst simply result in being dismissed and thought of as a jerk. However, even these situations are different from something taking place online - especially in a game - and we need to recognize that.
If we claim to value free speech and anonymity (and frankly I'm bothered by the comments that seem to imply it is a problem), we need to take the good with the bad. The same anonymity that protects whistleblowers, allows people to find others who share their interests without judgment, and grants people the ability to speak their mind without fear of reprisal, can also be used by those who want to troll, be jerks, manipulate , or perhaps just blow off steam. Just like the First Amendment means that Neo Nazi and KKK also get to peacefully assemble and speak their views without persecution, we need to have enough fortitude to realize that the most important tenets of society are only window dressing if they can be wiped away from whomever some elements of society find disreputable, from neo-nazis to black trans prostitute activists.
The idea that someone saying a mean remark, of the sexual nature or otherwise, via a video game actually being culpable for punishment by the government seems dystopian, and in fact requires the kind of dystopian monitoring that will be necessary to attribute the avatar to the account holder. This means allowing governments, with the help of private games companies, to have full access to the data of any player so they can identify when someone does the "bad" thing. Imagine if every time someone reported you (even for what today would be considered generally innocuous, reports in bad faith etc) in World of Warcraft, Blizzard would be given a subpoena and forced to turn over your payment information; soon a summons or ticket would come to your house claiming you in violation of morality statute X and depending on its severity, you'd need to pay a ticket or show up to court? That alone would be insane, now picture that escalated to what any accusation of sexual harassment or impropriety involves! Of course, anyone who has lived since the passage of the Patriot Act knows, that the corporate and government powers that be won't just stick to its intended usage, but instead use these powers for unrelated targets - such as disrupting social and political movements and/or parallel construction to take down a thorn in someone's side.
Ultimately, this just seems like the wrong direction. We do not need to treat anonymity like the enemy nor do we need to squash what makes the Internet great because there will be some challenges. There are other ways to approach the issue of people being jerks, harassment, and more online and frankly if we need laws for anything it is GDPR style "right to be forgotten" laws; which can take down offending personal content that is not vastly in the public interest. As a society we're just beginning to see the massive problems that come from everyone's identities - especially real world identities - being perpetually under scrutiny and always available . My generation was probably the last one that, as things go, was able to make mistakes and not have it captured forever and attributed to them for eternity - a major issue. Combine this with a culture that is meshing and equating online and offline and generally suspicious of anonymity.. that's not a good thing. There's far more to discuss including the change in expectations for insulting or harassing content and the perpetual seeming viability for those offended by it in certain circumstances, but I've written too much already. In any event, this just seems like the wrong path.
Note: In the event there is some Korean cultural element here that would somehow greatly differ from the North American / USA implementation of which I wrote, I'd be curious to know.
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I mean there is somewhat of a difference, If a woman grabs my junk I can most likely defend myself, a woman might have a harder time defending herself its just how it is. Now if everyone had a CCW and knew how to use it then we would all be pretty well off because most people would be equal.
This online bulling, come on, where are these peoples spines? I trade pleasantries once in a while when i'm driving and I don't call the cops for that.
There may be ways around it. I didn't ask for details, but when I mentioned this to some S. Korean guys I know they just kind of smirked and said it's not an issue.
Granted, my story does not constitute evidence of anything so take it with a grain of salt.
I wonder if a simple VPN would do the trick for gaming purposes.
oROEchimaru
Supreme [H]ardness
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unless your one of the pervs people fail to see the toxic gaming communities effect on children. I still remember everquest back when I was 14-15 and getting requests for cyber sexing for platinum. fing creeps should be arrested (thanks for the platinum /s).
HorseproofBacon
Limp Gawd
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All they need is an extradition treaty with the country of origin. With your SS number attached to the account, you are screwed...
LigTasm
Supreme [H]ardness
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This is so stupid. Do they not have anything better to legislate in South Korea?
Meh, my SS was stolen twice that I know of via two separate government hacks. The *real* problem is SS number being used as a primary means of identification authentication.
This is actually a growing problem, given the popularity of online titles in South Korea. And banning/criminalizing speech that promotes violence or is hurtful against an individual/group isn't that uncommon; many countries already do so to some extent.
I agree but still shouldn't handed it out willing to a corporation.
VPN’s don’t really mask anything, a few simple steps taken by the ISP and they are easily circumvented, Korean ISP’s are already working with the government on a number of policies towards curbing bad behaviour and identifying cyber bullies and the sort. Given the fact that Korea lives in a perpetual state of war readiness they probably have a lot of surveillance in place already.
EchtoGammut
2[H]4U
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Simple questions:
1) Is it only sexual harassment if it is a man towards a woman?
2) Does the harasser have to know the victim's sex?
3) If a man uses language that would be deemed harassing towards a woman, towards a man, knowing that the target is a man, would it still be construed as harassment?
3) If a woman makes a comment of a potentially sexually evocative manner towards a man, is that harassment?
I'm all for getting rid of the toxic online gaming environment, but I have yet to see anyone put forth any constructive means of doing so. I will read through this Korean legislation, but based on past legislation and implementations in other fields I am very skeptical of equitable and logical enforcement.
1) Is it only sexual harassment if it is a man towards a woman?
2) Does the harasser have to know the victim's sex?
3) If a man uses language that would be deemed harassing towards a woman, towards a man, knowing that the target is a man, would it still be construed as harassment?
3) If a woman makes a comment of a potentially sexually evocative manner towards a man, is that harassment?
I'm all for getting rid of the toxic online gaming environment, but I have yet to see anyone put forth any constructive means of doing so. I will read through this Korean legislation, but based on past legislation and implementations in other fields I am very skeptical of equitable and logical enforcement.
You may very well be right. I really have no idea.
As much as I have shit like this, I still think it should be in the hand of a select game developer and not government. There's no reason to link real name to a game account and it's probably even worse than these bastards that yap around profanity and whatnot in chat. It's a fucking game afterall, nothing to do with government.
cyberguyz
Gawd
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The problem with games is they themselves promote to sexual harassment by objectify females. Many (but not all!) of the players of these games are in their teens or young adults. Take a good look at just about every MMO out there. You see "fully armored" female toons with almost nothing covering their boobs, legs or ass. Here is a prime example of a toon wearing the best available armor from a 10 year old MMO (yes, they look like that in-game!). The game was created and published in South Korea.
And counties wonder why there is sexual harassment in games? The game creators and publishers are banking on it! But will game creators create games with no sexes at all to their characters? Would players actually play them?
And counties wonder why there is sexual harassment in games? The game creators and publishers are banking on it! But will game creators create games with no sexes at all to their characters? Would players actually play them?
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Hagrid
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That depends on their age and stuff. You know, common sense.
Vercinaigh
Gawd
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it's part of it, and just because you're thick to it doesn't mean others are nor should they have to be. So much is said to others online you would never -DARE- say to anyone in person. Sexual in nature and otherwise, my statement stands. Just because they did not touch them, doesn't mean they did not do everything short of it, nor does that suddenly excuse it either.
Hagrid
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They should not be playing those types of games if they are butt hurt too easily.
Vercinaigh
Gawd
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Negative, the kinda stuff they and I am talking about should never leave your mouth unless it's followed by your jaw broken and thrown in jail, ever.
GoldenTiger
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Hear hear! I agree completely with you.
Hagrid
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I grew up in a different time. We did not get so easily offended. All this over a video game online, over the internet.
Vercinaigh
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Has nothing to do with it, you still would not dare open your mouth with some of the shit said in person, you just wouldn't because you know you'd get drug outside and beaten to a pulp by anyone who was witness. It has nothing to do with time, has to do with maturity and not saying that shit in the first place.
Hagrid
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It's just a game. The boo baby whiners need to figure that out and grow a set. If it interferes with the game, then report. Mute button.
After that just play the game.
Vercinaigh
Gawd
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Nevermind you're too dense, moving on, nice chatting.
velusip
[H]ard|Gawd
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It isn't. It's comedy.