NVIDIA Controls AIB Launch and Driver Distribution @ [H]

Algrim said:
Founder's Edition (or, as I like to say, Fuck you Edition) pricing was exhaustively discussed and dissected back when Pascal was introduced. For quite some time after launch you were lucky to see any card in the lineups that went for under the FE price. I felt I was lucky to score a AIB card under the FE price a few months after the release of Pascal.

AIBs have no incentive to price below what nVidia itself sells for. If an AIB has a greater perceived value than nVidia's 'reference' card it's going to sell for more despite what the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price is set to.
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Exactly. All I said was before founders edition. We used to have msrp. We would get AIB cards with better coolers. 50-100-150 or so above it, in this instance 1050, 1100, 1150 and so on. Now you have AIBs playing around the founders edition price. 1169-1300 or more. if an AIB thinks their cooler is better than founders edition no way they are pricing below 1199. Everyone dances around founders edition pricing now, then you see cheap blower cards come in months after.
 
Algrim said:
Founder's Edition (or, as I like to say, Fuck you Edition) pricing was exhaustively discussed and dissected back when Pascal was introduced. For quite some time after launch you were lucky to see any card in the lineups that went for under the FE price. I felt I was lucky to score a AIB card under the FE price a few months after the release of Pascal.

AIBs have no incentive to price below what nVidia itself sells for. If an AIB has a greater perceived value than nVidia's 'reference' card it's going to sell for more despite what the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price is set to.
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That’s my point. We don’t know whether AIBs will maintain their “greater perceived value” status until reviews of the new FE drops. If it’s a flop then yeah AIB cards will be priced FE++.
 
NKD said:
Lol. Wasn’t the case when there was no founders edition tax. Before msrp and the aib cards will have 100 or so premium. Now all aib cards are 1250. Above founders edition card. What is their incentive to actually undercut founders edition? None! They are treating it as base price. Next time when nvidia announces founders edition ti that is +300, aib after market cards will be +350. Name of the game. Msrp can wait. Milk the fanboys.
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GTX 1070 FE = $449 at launch (6-2016). 3-4 months later, bought a Zotac 1070 AMP for around $390. No reason not to assume the same for RTX GPUs, when adequate stocks are available and new-gen-hi-demand-craze simmers down. Expect the same with RTX as Pascal unless you have a differing historical record re FE cards and can cite examples to the contrary. Again, keep in mind, we are NOT talking about pricing for first month or so after a release, but a few months after that.
 
IdiotInCharge said:
Of all of the components on a graphics card, the GPU is 99% of the innovation. The AIBs are just gluing them together, and they're following Nvidia's reference designs on release.

I'm recognizing that graphics cards based with Nvidia GPUs are initially based entirely on Nvidia's work, and Nvidia's right to charge what they see fit.

And pointing out the tantrums evidenced here that appear to be vacant of market understanding.
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Doesn't matter , just pointing out the issue in your statement :D They don't sell you the GPU directly, they sell to AIB, and AIB sells to you =p (I'm just splitting hairs, calm down man)
 
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amenx said:
GTX 1070 FE = $449 at launch (6-2016). 3-4 months later, bought a Zotac 1070 AMP for around $390. No reason not to assume the same for RTX GPUs, when adequate stocks are available and new-gen-hi-demand-craze simmers down. Expect the same with RTX as Pascal unless you have a differing historical record re FE cards and can cite examples to the contrary. Again, keep in mind, we are NOT talking about pricing for first month or so after a release, but a few months after that.
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Could be. But I think it will be longer this time. Since 1070s won’t ship till November. Honestly I was just surprised they raised the founders edition 200 vs msrp. Even above the 100. I suppose nvidia might be doing it to make AIBs happy. Gives them a reason to float around with nvidia prices. And make more profits. Nothing wrong with that if people are willing to pay. Power is in the hand of the purchaser.
 
amenx said:
GTX 1070 FE = $449 at launch (6-2016). 3-4 months later, bought a Zotac 1070 AMP for around $390. No reason not to assume the same for RTX GPUs, when adequate stocks are available and new-gen-hi-demand-craze simmers down. Expect the same with RTX as Pascal unless you have a differing historical record re FE cards and can cite examples to the contrary. Again, keep in mind, we are NOT talking about pricing for first month or so after a release, but a few months after that.
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Really? I waited for a long time, never once found a single 1070 @ even close to MSRP! :( even the blowers / FE
 
This video has a pretty good research done on founders edition. How after market cards are priced vs msrp before and after founder edition. That is the entire point I was trying to make. Yes people buy it, yes nvidia can do it, but its clearly a way to inflate prices for new cards.

 
polonyc2 said:
I don't get it...so Nvidia is holding back launch day drivers but doesn't care if lower performance benchmark numbers leak out?...why not just supply the official driver which makes the cards look better in the end?
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I feel like we might get a quack.exe type event again with a specifically allowed beta driver, turn off features to increase performance on benches.
 
NKD said:
This video has a pretty good research done on founders edition. How after market cards are priced vs msrp before and after founder edition. That is the entire point I was trying to make. Yes people buy it, yes nvidia can do it, but its clearly a way to inflate prices for new cards.

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Wow, what a bunch of Nvidia lies and BS! They think we're dumb? lol."The Reference, uh.. Founder's Edition". What a joke.

Edit *Apparently we are since they're sold out :rolleyes:
 
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Krenum said:
Wow, what a bunch of Nvidia lies and BS! They think we're dumb? lol."The Reference, uh.. Founder's Edition". What a joke.

Edit *Apparently we are since they're sold out :rolleyes:
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It was just funny how the guy said reference when he was suppose to say founders edition. Hahaha!
 
I cancelled my order after careful consideration, and it has nothing to do with the price. Just the fucked up attitude towards what is essentially a very narrow market anyway. It's completely unnecessary bullshit. 95% of the world could care less about their video card, and they just pushed me into that category. I'm going back to my Sega Saturn.
 
fwiler1 said:
I'm going back to my Sega Saturn.
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Hellz yeah! Play some Panzer Dragoon! Wish I had a Saturn, still have my original Playstation, thinking of knocking the dust off of it and playing that for awhile until AMD give us a card that doesn't require a nuke plant to run.
 
NKD said:
It was just funny how the guy said reference when he was suppose to say founders edition. Hahaha!
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Yeah, you know it would be different if the "Founders Edition" actually came with some kind of special early adopter perk, maybe a % off your next upgrade or some kind of marketing gimmick, but they're just selling people reference cards at extreme markups! People that say they're not reference cards are ignorant to the truth, the truth is in that video right there, strait from the green eyed monster itself.
 
Krenum said:
Yeah, you know it would be different if the "Founders Edition" actually came with some kind of special early adopter perk, maybe a % off your next upgrade or some kind of marketing gimmick, but they're just selling people reference cards at extreme markups! People that say they're not reference cards are ignorant to the truth, the truth is in that video right there, strait from the green eyed monster itself.
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Yep. He clearly said we will see how it goes. People bought in to it and now they jacked the founders edition price $200 above MSRP on the Ti! Brand bias is very real. I have owned nvidia cards alot of the time. I have also had some AMD. But mostly Nvidia recently but some people actually waste their time trying to justify the founders edition pricing. Hey if you want to buy it buy it, there is nothing wrong with it. But call it like it is.

Its funny how Nvidia decide they were going to charge 200 more for the Ti reference when charging 100 for the other cards. I guess when you can get away with it you do it!
 
All you people complaining about price...you know, the same thing happened with the rx 480 launch, and a bunch of hoopla from people who couldn't find cards at msrp. It's what happens at launch. If you can't afford it or can't justify the cost, wait or refresh nowinstock until you find one at msrp. It's how I got my sapphire nitro+ rx 480 only a couple weeks after launch, despite the limited supply.
 
I’m super curious if the import tariff are going to go through in the US. I believe they should be taking effect soon. That’s going to be a 25% import fee on most PC parts... The RTX pricing may not look so bad if everything else goes up in price soon...
 
Nobu said:
All you people complaining about price...you know, the same thing happened with the rx 480 launch, and a bunch of hoopla from people who couldn't find cards at msrp. It's what happens at launch. If you can't afford it or can't justify the cost, wait or refresh nowinstock until you find one at msrp. It's how I got my sapphire nitro+ rx 480 only a couple weeks after launch, despite the limited supply.
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Clearly you have no idea what we were talking about. We are debating the facts that Founders edition increased overall prices of AIB cards. Its a fact, not bunch of people bitching! Debating a price has nothing to do with money in your wallet or being a bad ass who can afford it! Rich or poor. wati for refresh for MSRP is not happening for months. Thanks to founders editoin. That is what we were discussing. You got an rx 480 which has nothing to do with after market Nvidia cards that always compete around founders edition instead of msrp. That is what we were discussing.

Are you really saying if you fresh enough all of sudden you would find 2080ti for 999 that hasn't been available yet? of 2070 for 699? That is the entire debate we wont see nvidia cards at msrp for a while. Because right now its founders edition time.
 
NKD said:
Clearly you have no idea what we were talking about. We are debating the facts that Founders edition increased overall prices of AIB cards. Its a fact, not bunch of people bitching! Debating a price has nothing to do with money in your wallet or being a bad ass who can afford it! Rich or poor. wati for refresh for MSRP is not happening for months. Thanks to founders editoin. That is what we were discussing. You got an rx 480 which has nothing to do with after market Nvidia cards that always compete around founders edition instead of msrp. That is what we were discussing.

Are you really saying if you fresh enough all of sudden you would find 2080ti for 999 that hasn't been available yet? of 2070 for 699? That is the entire debate we wont see nvidia cards at msrp for a while. Because right now its founders edition time.
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Msrp for 2080 IS $799, like it or not, and there are 9 different AIB cards at that price (or lower!). If prices drop below that, then they're selling below MSRP, not at some imaginary "actual msrp".

Nvidia has a reason for selling their cards at MSRP, and that is a combination of costs, demand, and profit. They've set msrp where it is because they believe they will make the most profit at that price, given the costs and demand, not because somebody put a gun to your head and forced you to pay whatever they're asking. Like I said, if you can't justify it (regardless of how much spare money you have horded away) then don't get it. If principals are what is making you complain, then stand by them by all means. But imo nvidia isn't doing anything wrong as far as MSRP goes.

Edit: Oh, I see, it is $699...still, seems a bit pedantic to complain about $50-80 (10-11.5%) above msrp on a $700 card, that's still in preorder. To put into perspective, the RX 480 I got was $280, I got it for $260 after promo code in july, and it was down to $245 by December (would've been earlier if it weren't for the mining craze, which sent it skyrocketing to $300, if you were able to get it from amazon/egg/etc). AMDs MSRP for the 8GB reference model is $220
 
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Nobu said:
Msrp for 2080 IS $799, like it or not, and there are 9 different AIB cards at that price (or lower!). If prices drop below that, then they're selling below MSRP, not at some imaginary "actual msrp".

Nvidia has a reason for selling their cards at MSRP, and that is a combination of costs, demand, and profit. They've set msrp where it is because they believe they will make the most profit at that price, given the costs and demand, not because somebody put a gun to your head and forced you to pay whatever they're asking. Like I said, if you can't justify it (regardless of how much spare money you have horded away) then don't get it. If principals are what is making you complain, then stand by them by all means. But imo nvidia isn't doing anything wrong as far as MSRP goes.

Edit: Oh, I see, it is $699...still, seems a bit pedantic to complain about $50-80 (10-11.5%) above msrp on a $700 card, that's still in preorder. To put into perspective, the RX 480 I got was $280, I got it for $260 after promo code in july, and it was down to $245 by December (would've been earlier if it weren't for the mining craze, which sent it skyrocketing to $300). AMDs MSRP for the 8GB reference model is $220
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There is also the issue of that card being price much higher then it used to be, you get this kind of reaction.
 
Nobu said:
Msrp for 2080 IS $799, like it or not, and there are 9 different AIB cards at that price (or lower!). If prices drop below that, then they're selling below MSRP, not at some imaginary "actual msrp".

Nvidia has a reason for selling their cards at MSRP, and that is a combination of costs, demand, and profit. They've set msrp where it is because they believe they will make the most profit at that price, given the costs and demand, not because somebody put a gun to your head and forced you to pay whatever they're asking. Like I said, if you can't justify it (regardless of how much spare money you have horded away) then don't get it. If principals are what is making you complain, then stand by them by all means. But imo nvidia isn't doing anything wrong as far as MSRP goes.

Edit: Oh, I see, it is $699...still, seems a bit pedantic to complain about $50-80 (10-11.5%) above msrp on a $700 card, that's still in preorder.
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huh? dude who is complaining? I am debating lol! These days having a debate about whats fair or not is complaining? Plus the whole time I have been saying nvidia does this to fake msrp, the real msrp should be the founder edition price. Some people got on me for that lol. Can't win either way I guess lol. Plus all the 749.99 ones are place holders. Most of the good 2080s are above 799. My main debate was about the 2080 ti founders edition, instead of being 100 above msrp they bumped that 200 for founders edition. Like 100 wasn't enough already lol. Like it already wasn't priced high enough.
 
NKD said:
huh? dude who is complaining? I am debating lol! These days having a debate about whats fair or not is complaining? Plus the whole time I have been saying nvidia does this to fake msrp, the real msrp should be the founder edition price. Some people got on me for that lol. Can't win either way I guess lol. Plus all the 749.99 ones are place holders. Most of the good 2080s are above 799. My main debate was about the 2080 ti founders edition, instead of being 100 above msrp they bumped that 200 for founders edition. Like 100 wasn't enough already lol. Like it already wasn't priced high enough.
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Fair enough. My post wasn't really directed at anyone in particular, just seemed like a lot of people were complaining about what tends to happen regardless of vendor or brand (see example in my last post). It's exacerbated by fe pricing, but still within reason imo.
 
Nobu said:
Fair enough. My post wasn't really directed at anyone in particular, just seemed like a lot of people were complaining about what tends to happen regardless of vendor or brand (see example in my last post). It's exacerbated by fe pricing, but still within reason imo.
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only for the 2070 and 2080 it would be fine for first dibs. But my biggest knock has been the way nvidia put 2080ti above 200. And now you have that much more for AIBs to play with. You will see cards little below and above that price depending on model and it will take that much longer for them to come towards MSRP. I think by then nvidia will likely make the founder edition 1080ti 999. Its a good strategy. Launch founders edition, drop price down the road to msrp and now your price drop became msrp lol. win win.
 
I honestly think they should double the MSRP just to take advantage of the e-penis bunch. That'd be awesome. :p
 
notarat said:
I honestly think they should double the MSRP just to take advantage of the e-penis bunch. That'd be awesome. :p
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The 'Founders Edition' has always come across as an early-adopter tax. The childish flailing about on the topic is entertaining, but it's also getting tiring.
 
Review the cards with whatever drivers are available to regular people, even if those are legacy or generic windows drivers. That would be 100% honest reporting. To save time, maybe do a shorter pre-release review using the best drivers any one of us readers could get? If Nvidia doesn't want their cards reviewed at launch with unstable drivers (or the windows VGA driver!) then they ought to make the drivers available to anyone. If the results are dissatisfying, maybe consumers should know that too?

You could always update the review or do a more full complete review after updated drivers are released.
 
flenser said:
Review the cards with whatever drivers are available to regular people, even if those are legacy or generic windows drivers. That would be 100% honest reporting. To save time, maybe do a shorter pre-release review using the best drivers any one of us readers could get? If Nvidia doesn't want their cards reviewed at launch with unstable drivers (or the windows VGA driver!) then they ought to make the drivers available to anyone. If the results are dissatisfying, maybe consumers should know that too?

You could always update the review or do a more full complete review after updated drivers are released.
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Nvidia just doesn’t want partners to distribute old drivers. It’s easier if they can send out the drivers directly to everyone at the same time.
 
Ocellaris said:
Nvidia just doesn’t want partners to distribute old drivers. It’s easier if they can send out the drivers directly to everyone at the same time.
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This has never been an issue before. Older drivers, in my experience, will not work with new cards, as those drivers have a check in place for what card it is being installed to. What you have posted here is a 100% non-issue.
 
Ocellaris said:
Partners get multiple driver versions before launch, some of those are worse than others.
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Please tell me how this works. LOL!

I have been doing this for literally 20 years, and I have NEVER seen an issue with AIBs distributing "old" drivers to reviewers. In fact, most of the time, it is the last thing we get, as they want the hardware to be shown in its best light.
 
Crazy idea ... get all the big 'net reviewers together, and agree not to post reviews until everyone has cards in hand. Pre-orders get a mystery loot box. *shrug*
 
Ocellaris said:
Nvidia just doesn’t want partners to distribute old drivers. It’s easier if they can send out the drivers directly to everyone at the same time.
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I think they just want to keep drivers out of the hands of people who somehow managed to obtain a card early through unofficial channels, maybe to help reduce the number (or at least the accuracy) of early performance leaks.
 
Nobu said:
I think they just want to keep drivers out of the hands of people who somehow managed to obtain a card early through unofficial channels, maybe to help reduce the number (or at least the accuracy) of early performance leaks.
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nVidia is a company with a market cap of billions of dollars. Why are we, the unpaid (by nVidia) and unwashed masses, defending them? They can afford a PR department. Let them state the reason why.
 
Algrim said:
nVidia is a company with a market cap of billions of dollars. Why are we, the unpaid (by nVidia) and unwashed masses, defending them? They can afford a PR department. Let them state the reason why.
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I'm not defending them, I'm just saying what I honestly think. They have plenty of reasons for me not to like them, in this case I think it's pretty simple.

In any case, I don't see how you could interpret what I said as any "better" than what ocellarias suggested.
 
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Nobu said:
In any case, I don't see how you could interpret what I said as any "better" than what ocellarias suggested.
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I probably shouldn't have only quoted your post though, to be fair, I'd have had to quote a lot of this thread. But everyone who is defending nVidia's decision should let nVidia do it. We're not paid to.
 
Old news around here, but I was on vacation cruising around another continent for a few weeks. Now that I’m back and have had a chance to catch up on the news, just wanted to chime in. Kyle, I’ve been a reader of the [H] since 1998 when I was in college (I just happened to forget my first few logins when y’all would cleanse your database, so I’m on my 3rd or 4th nick). I’m stoked that you and the crew have managed to keep shop open while maintaining strong credibility. Not easy to do given how many (formerly) great websites have disappeared over the ensuing 2 decades.

I love that you wrote about Nvidia’s latest NDA strongarm bs, and continue to hold the [H]’s integrity in the highest regard. It’d be easy to kowtow and just sign NDAs in pursuit of day 1 review clicks. Well known sites like Anandtech, Tech Report, Tom’s, etc al are doing it, so why not right? I believe it’s because the [H] and its captain still remember that it was exactly this sort of journalism that inspired the reputation you have long carried in the pc hardware community. Even in 2018, the forums at places like Ars Technica and Anandtech still recommend [H] reviews as some of the best, most thorough, and most real-world relevant places for info. That’s not an accident, it’s a mindset in the community and forums that is largely influenced by the [H] staff and your tell-it-like-it-is approach.

Thanks for keeping it real with no BS, and fuck anyone who tries to pull NDA etc shenanigans on y’all. Hardware fanbois and shareholders who pledge allegiance to XYZ Corp may not like it, but I’m betting most [H] readers appreciate the honesty. It’s also why I tell my peeps at various tech companies to send you their rumors. It’s better than the old days when I used to do stuff like pass you info via burner account emails.
 
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