NVIDIA NDA & HardOCP - POLL

HardOCP Signs the NVIDIA NDA for 2080 Launch Access?

  • Yes

  • No

Results are only viewable after voting.
Like others, I would like to see an abstain on the poll. I don't know enough about business to make an informed vote. I'd like to take certain positions, but have been burnt in the past because I didn't quite grasp the legalese on contracts I have signed.

It's one thing to take a moralistic stance when my money isn't on the line, and another when it's my livelihood.
 
odditory said:
Sadly, no. It doesn't require loving Nvidia, or complex analytical insight, to know that the angry AMD bros padding the No votes would rather see [H] go 404 than give Nvidia an inch, if given the choice.
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[H] has been excluded before and is still here...
 
Those prices though...if that's legit, I'll not need to read any review about them. Cheapest is about 750 a card. Hopefully some lower end cards for us cheapskates.

As for the NDA, it's your clicks and money. That's your call.
 
I know you have faced [H] going under in the past (phantom console lawsuit) and that you have tried to set things up to better be prepared if it happened again. Seems to me it is kind of happening when it comes to Nvidia. I know buying these video cards is expensive. The GPP thing really left a sour taste in my mouth. 5 Years is a long time. If the NDA was more specific then I could agree on signing it. But I feel if you do sign it, Nvidia will only have their interests at heart, all reviewers be damned to hell.

Only you, Kyle, knows of your financials, and a good few of us even know some of your personal family things, so you must do what is best for your family. The needs of the few, out way the needs of the many. If you can afford to purchase the materials you need to make your honest, no Bull Shit reviews, then continue doing so. But either way I will support whatever decision you go with.
I am voting NO.

Be back in a few, I am going to up my patreon to $10 a month, because actions always speak louder then words, just like [H] articles and editorials. And I do think all of [H] articles and editorials are actions, it is what a journalist does.
 
encore2097 said:
Unless I missed something, 5 years is standard NDA for confidential info.

Nothing in the NDA says anything about not being able to call out flaws in a product -- only says you will use CONFIDENTIAL information for the benefit of NVIDIA - once something is publicly disclosed = no longer confidential. I'm not a lawyer but have read / signed a lot of NDA's on both sides of the table.

edit: Also sounds like RTX isn't doing so hot..
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Interesting that this type of NDA has never been trotted out to the press in the 20 years I have been dealing with NVIDIA and covering its products. As stated above, this NDA is fine for people that only review the hardware. The statement betlow I got from a person rather high up the chain in the GPU industry.

"You also inspired them to create this fine piece of content (NDA) so that disobedience does not take momentum ."
 
odditory said:
Sadly, no. It doesn't require loving Nvidia, or complex analytical insight, to know that the angry AMD bros padding the No votes would rather see [H]ardOCP go 404 than give Nvidia an inch, if given the choice. Some people take their petty brand allegiances way too seriously.
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Just like the rabid pro-nVidia people aren't trying to pad the yes votes? I really would like to see your proof that the no votes are being padded by AMD zealots since you're making that claim.
 
I'll sign the NDA, I won't disclose anything, I'll be too busy playing games on the 2080ti to leak anything. ;)
 
SmokeRngs said:
Just like the rabid pro-nVidia people aren't trying to pad the yes votes? I really would like to see your proof that the no votes are being padded by AMD zealots since you're making that claim.
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I mean hell, my gpu history has been all nvidia: 4400 ti - 6800gt - 2x 260 core 216s - 2x 560 tis - 1080 ti. Yet I voted no, and jumped on Patreon because of this. I agree with you, and have a feeling fanboys are an extremely small portion of the votes here today.
 
While the out of pocket cost for the reviews sucks big time. Nvidia has WAY too high of a chance of pulling more shady shit in the future, and it would be a travesty for the only site with the balls to call them out on their shenanigans to be gagged.
 
The only way I can see this being a 'bad' NDA is if nVidia provided you with CI related to something akin to the GPP; if nVidia provides it to you, you would be effectively gagged by the NDA until it became publicly available information.

Alternatively, you could sign the NDA and then terminate the agreement once you have the review hardware. That way nVidia wouldn't be able to send scetchy GPP esque garbage knowing you would be gagged by their NDA.
 
launch day reviews don't matter as much as the in-depth unbiased testing [H] is known for...buy the cards later and review it at your leisure...everyone is in a rush to release things as fast as possible these days to get more views/clicks/likes...the best reviews are the ones that take their time...
 
You've been an independent source for years and from what I've understood you've even been to court to maintain the right to speak objectively about products. A couple weeks plus or minus isn't going to kill the platform. I can understand an NDA that would give all reviewers an equal chance to conduct a thorough evaluation but years is just dumb. Don't sign.
 
Deimos said:
The only way I can see this being a 'bad' NDA is if nVidia provided you with CI related to something akin to the GPP; if nVidia provides it to you, you would be effectively gagged by the NDA until it became publicly available information.

Alternatively, you could sign the NDA and then terminate the agreement once you have the review hardware. That way nVidia wouldn't be able to send scetchy GPP esque garbage knowing you would be gagged by their NDA.
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Wow that is an excellent point. I wouldn't be surprised if as soon as this is signed, they will flood him with every sketchy thing they are thinking of doing over the next five years, well before the cards ship, to tie him to keeping quiet on all this. There's no way he's going to be able to cut and run after he gets the review samples.
 
Deimos said:
The only way I can see this being a 'bad' NDA is if nVidia provided you with CI related to something akin to the GPP; if nVidia provides it to you, you would be effectively gagged by the NDA until it became publicly available information.
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That would be 100% correct. And to think that I had no sources inside NVIDIA would not be a good call.

Deimos said:
Alternatively, you could sign the NDA and then terminate the agreement once you have the review hardware. That way nVidia wouldn't be able to send scetchy GPP esque garbage knowing you would be gagged by their NDA.
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I do not think that would be with the spirit of the agreement would and not be ethical on my part.
 
polonyc2 said:
launch day reviews don't matter as much as the in-depth unbiased testing [H] is known for...buy the cards later and review it at your leisure...everyone is in a rush to release things as fast as possible these days to get more views/clicks/likes...the best reviews are the ones that take their time...
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Sad but true, along with all the click bait for no other reason than to generate add revenue.

Time for me to get a Patreon account..

I wouldn't hold it against you for signing it Kyle. I haven't read the NDA. If there isn't anything in there too draconian that could limit your journalist integrity, go ahead and sign it. Either way, I trust your judgment, and will by relying on [H] reviews for my product purchases, like I always have over the past 15+ years.
 
I voted no, mostly based on what Kyle has said about the NDA both here and when it was leaked, but I think this is a complex issue. Nvidia likely lost a lot of money due to the GPP fallout and they do not want that to happen again. Instead of doing the pro-consumer thing and deciding not to go down roads like that again, they chose to make a wide-reaching NDA that could very well prevent the media from talking about issues like that again. How the NDA would work in a situation where something leaks and Nvidia denies that it exists or claims that the leak is fake is debatable, but it is a potentially dangerous question to have to ask. If a journalist has that info and has signed the NDA, could Nvidia tell them not to publish it or to take down articles about it? Would they have to according to the NDA? It's a sticky situation for anyone signing. On the other hand, it doesn't sound like it would prevent honest reviews of the cards and there is something to be said about the traffic of day-0 reviews and not having to spend over four grand on buying cards.

[H]'s reviews have always been good, fair, and honest. That got my attention, but it was the brutally honest coverage of bad products and practices, even when having to deal with very angry companies, that have kept me visiting for over 15 years (or maybe closer to 20, really can't remember). If the NDA means that would end, at least for Nvidia products, then I feel it could be more damaging to the site than not having day-0 coverage.
 
I say dont sign. The fact is if someone or some company does shady business practice or practices and is found to be misleading I think its dutiful to call 'em out on it. Of course companies dont like to be bad mouthed. But thats why you have evidence to backup your thoughts/claims. Big business puts out a product and they need held accountable if they wish to retain their stature in the community. You guys here at [H] have given us the cold hard facts(love it or hate it) and thats what we want. Real data with real truth.
 
I'd read the [H] reviews either way. No promises on clicking the advertisements, either way either, but if I buy a GTX/RTX I'll try to use a referral link.
 
Kyle, I have know you for years brother (haven't talked to you personally since the Texas Gamexperience at Eddie Deans in 2012) and have seen you take several stands over the years. I have fond memories of you going all Gallagher on a Phantom Console at QuakeCon and I still use a Ratz Pad :). I still remember the conversation that you, I and Angel Munoz had at the CPL about IBM Deathstar hard drives by the Shuttle booth how many years ago at the CPL? when I first met you so I feel I know what kind of integrity you have since we have spoken at several events over the years. I voted no. Nvidia's NDA may seem innocuous but a 5 year NDA with very broad "confidential information" clauses that your attorney did not like. LISTEN TO YOUR ATTORNEY. Don't sign. Sounds like Nvidia is setting up journalists with this NDA to have a way to gag them if needed down the road by classifying information they have previously released as "Confidential". We come to [H]ard|OCP for honest reviews of hardware and I still always come her first for reviews of purchases I am considering. So stick to your guns and principals.

P.S. one of these days we will have to get all of the old Senior Gaming League guys together at a LAN party somewhere and have some fun fragging old school.
 
If you stick to your word and have any integrity, you won't sign the NDA. If you cave and sign it, then all your GPP coverage was meaningless.
 
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In the end its your business and IMO you should do what is best for it. True [H] supporters will stay no matter what you choose.
 
Use your head, Kyle. You know how to navigate these waters better than any poll can tell you.

We'll support you in whatever decision you ultimately make.
 
Stoly said:
In the end its your business and IMO you should do what is best for it. True [H] supporters will stay no matter what you choose.
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It will make him a huge hypocrite in my eyes if he signs it.
 
Sign it. You did the right thing, and I think they're doing the right thing by not blacklisting you. The NDA is the same as everyone else signs and if you were in the hardware business you would ask people to sign the same sort of document. I think you would show yourself to be mature and sincere by accepting their offer.
 
The ideas presented in this thread over not signing and also potentially doing a Patreon/GoFundMe/whatever type "sell off" of the cards after they're properly reviewed aka "The [H]ard Way" have a lot of merit. I'm not even a gamer anymore, my last big video card purchase was so long ago, a GeForce 3 Pro card that cost me a whopping $389+tax cash in the hand, so that aspect of this situation matters not to me. I do read some of the hardware reviews that happen here at the [H] now and again, but think about it: the "sell off" of review cards could potentially benefit not just the website but the proceeds could also go to some charity on a percentage basic maybe.

I noted that Kyle pointed out his own lawyer basically stated it's an NDA to avoid so that alone is a pretty telling thing - above and beyond everything else that I myself and everyone else has said in this thread - not to mention the poll has had a consistent 2/3rds majority towards No since it was created is all that really needs to be said I suppose.

I personally don't trust Nvidia because time and time again they've been shown to not be trustworthy, and this in my own opinion is just another chance for them to prove it - don't give 'em that chance.

I say choose not to sign it and then look into doing the Patreon/GoFundMe/etc concept for not only helping the [H] survive in the times ahead but also some charitable organizations as well.
 
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If you guys are that hard up for money - send me PayPal details. I can't use Patreon because it's a piece of crap. I mean, $4300 to run your business and review the hottest, latest cards? Nevermind that they have re-sale value that you could leverage after the reviews?

The NDA removes your ability to be completely impartial. I'm in for $100 on the GoFundMe or PayPal donation.

EDIT: also happy to pay for cards and you send them back to me after you're done - signed, of course. :)
 
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Voted “No” in its current state. Ask for a Word copy and have your attorney send them a redline.

The request will probably get ignored, but it is worth a shot trying to negotiate. At the least, it demonstrates a willingness to consider their needs while also addressing yours.
 
I thought about it some more and changed my vote to "No". I also signed up for Paetron and will donate $5/month. You're a stand-up guy Kyle.
 
If affordability isn't an issue, what's there to poll or discuss? You have an established base. We know the review won't be out the same time as everyone else's. And don't care. Write what you/we expect, the truth.

They want to talk because this card has a premium that isn't going to be much more than a 1080Ti in general gaming (2080). 6x Ray Tracing, 8x Ray Tracing, 10x Ray Tracing vs 1080Ti!!! Who gives a fuck? Can it run Crysis motherfucker?@4K?????? Or any top level games@4K? Is SLI going to be viable again so we can play @4K???

Now Kyle you don't sign, we can have that kind of truth. Fuck it, don't sign. Tell us the truth over the 1080Ti. (which from last night went from $649 to over $729 at the egg this morning?)
 
Charlie_D said:
Yeah, this is the only tech site I really visit anymore, and the only reviews I typically go by. I don't need day one coverage, just information I can trust. Lots of us like that here.
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I agree... Fewer and fewer people care about getting hardware on day one. Dollar values have increased from the old days, and so more people are waiting for a complete picture.

Just reading these comments and knowing about what is required to get a day one review already taints the validity of those day one reviews, in my opinion.
 
If rather have one long well rounded review than a shorter one on launch day anyways, so a delay for a retail sample isn't a concern .

Given nVidias reaction to GPP and then your lawyer's reading of the NDA, as well as industry talk about you in regards to nVidia, I don't see how you can sign it.
 
I don’t read reviews on AV products as they are just that - free ad material for those who provided the expensive equipment. That shit is just that ... shit. It provided nothing of substance and is only filled with marketing jargon. If signing the NDA means you turn into another advertiser with nothing of substance, I’d probably stop coming to the site in general so I would say to that DONT sign it.

On the flip side, if it means you maintain your normal stance and aren’t degredated to that of a paid-for reviewer I say sign it.
 
5150Joker said:
It will make him a huge hypocrite in my eyes if he signs it.
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That's absurd. One has nothing to do with the other. GPP was an internal B2B matter between Nvidia and their AIB partners. It really was none of anyone else's business. It's good that it got talked about in the consumer sphere anyway, but all the ire that was directed at Nvidia for what amounted to an opt-in incentive program for their AIB partners, really should have been directed at those partners. They somehow got off scot-free, even though it was their greed that ultimately said yes to GPP. That's not to say Nvidia creating GPP wasn't dumb and unnecessary to begin with.

Obviously reviews are Hard-OCP's bread and butter. Timeliness of the review - as in, day one access - isn't everything, but it's a big thing. In the end Kyle should do what's best for business, but catering to the echo chamber here isn't necessarily going to be.
 
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I say NO. Maybe I should kick in more than 1 buck a month..

edit: what happened to the patreon link? used to be at the top of the page.. nvm found it
 
All that matters is how useful this 'under NDA' material and information is to [H] and its longevity. I mean, you have already demonstrated that you are willing to drop a wad of cash to support nVidia and their products. Having access to these products is supremely important to [H] regardless of the blow-back or ethics surrounding recent events. It comes down to past experience with NDAs -- have they made [H] better?

Maybe the decision comes down to aligning your personal thoughts and ethos with those you wish to uphold as part of whatever [H] means, or allow them to diverge. Either way most people will understand -- many won't. ;)
 
My response would be "Suck my dick, Nvidia." Who the hell do they think they are? The police? Financial penalties my arse. Buy the cards yourselves and nail them to the wall.
 
BTW Kyle, what did you expect when you asked nvidia for a review sample. I mean you already had the "NO" in your pocket. So I guess you were hoping for a "YES" and in that case why would you deserve special treatment? It's the same exact NDA every other site, youtuber and blogger already signed.

Since you already knew you'd have to sign the damn NDA then why ask nvidia in the first place?
 
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