naib
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why would you downgrade?
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12 Things to do After Installing Linux Mint
auntjemima
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Well considering my installer of choice for Gentoo is sysrescue cd
Now if I was to dual boot ever again I would lay out the Harddrive first, then install windows first and then install Linux.
Think about Joe average though...
If the pc is to be single OS, mint actually takes less mouse clicks(this has been done) and is "easier" than windows.
If you start chucking resizing well it is ... Annoying
Is this what the Windows vs Linux debate has come down to? Click count?
No one installing gives two fucks how many clicks it takes.
NoOther
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You believe that Arch is a downgrade from Mint? Interesting. I find that Mint is a simpler version of Linux and Arch has many more possibilities. I am glad you have brought up the prospect of which Linux distribution is the best OS to use though. This is a very thought provoking comment that will bring much insight to the Linux community, especially those looking to use Linux for the first time.
heatlesssun
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For desktop Linux to get any significant consumer market share it needs to come preinstalled on a much larger number of consumer PCs. Most OEMs that office Linux preinstalled go with Ubuntu and I think that would be fine for OEMs to use as the "standard" consumer Linux for a retail PC. Of course many questions arise like what motivation would OEMs need to create many more Linux based PC and how would they market them. Marketing them as a solution to Windows problems is problematic as OEMs would be marketing against their own Windows devices. Then there's the question of software support. I know that some desktop Linux supporters don't acknowledge this as an issue but how often will a PC buyer see a device, get it because of the price not realizing that it isn't Windows compatible then try to install Windows only software. And if OEMs try to label these devices as "Doesn't run Windows software*" but then try to note Wine as a possible solution, that gets complicated.
Best recommendation for non linux users?
Install under hyper-v (if your system supports it)
So much easier to deal with, it's fast, it works, you can easily do snap shots with one click so you can roll back in a few seconds if you screw something up.
We do all our linux installs including Oracle on hyper-v at work. It's a godsend.
Install under hyper-v (if your system supports it)
So much easier to deal with, it's fast, it works, you can easily do snap shots with one click so you can roll back in a few seconds if you screw something up.
We do all our linux installs including Oracle on hyper-v at work. It's a godsend.
auntjemima
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A TON of your post is incorrect. I am out right now, so I'll reply properly later if no one beats me to it.
edit: SOOOOOOOO I clearly either didn't have my coffee before quoting this post OR I quoted the wrong post. I agree with all of it up until the WINE portion, I guess. While I agree that no consumer is going to go to the store, take note of the types and revisions (this DOES matter) of hardware and then research if it works for Linux. I ran into this exact problem more than once. I actually take my cell phone into stores now (the horror!!) just to search up items I am buying as I generally run Linux in at least a dual boot on all of my systems.
The WINE comment, well, wine isn't for drivers. So, should your new device not having Linux drivers and you want to use windows ones, you usually need to use NDISWrapper, which is just the absolute worst piece of garbage I have ever seen. I mean, good on them for trying to provide a resolution to devices with no drivers, but it is just a horrible thing to deal with.
A big gripe I have with Linux is its lack of USB wifi support. USB WiFi is extremely commonplace these days and yet even making sure your device is supported isn't always enough. I regularly have to reinstall drivers for one of my Linux boxes running a supported Realtek chip. If I reboot the system there is a good chance that wifi won't work again until I remove and reinstall the drivers. Even stopping the device and restarting it does not work.
Little nitpicks here and there, really, as not everyone has usb wifi dongles.
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Don't know what chipset my WiFi use, but I claimed to support Linux and I got it working after compiling source code and following a mix of obscure forum posts and guides written for other distributions.
It was like black magic, typing in commands into a terminal and having no idea what they did. But before that I had to get the terminal working in a window so that I could read instructions from a web browser, this is a problem I've had with multiple Linux distributions over several years and I took to Google. By luck I found a forum post that suggested bugs with the terminal may be caused by having an unusual setup, as they don't get tested as much. A light bulb went up. I always change my keyboard layout while leaving the region at English whenever I install Linux/Windows, as opposed to changing both the region and layout. I searched for commands for messing with the keyboard setup, found two and ran them. I ended up in some blue text based program that wasn't entirely clear about anything, but it worked.
After all that, I had everything working, even managed to get the new Shadow Warrior game running with OpenGL and sound, the latter thanks to some forum post again. Then I rebooted and the WiFi was gone. No doubt I have to input additional commands to make Linux save whatever I did, but just the thought of going through all that googeling again made me give up and use a Ethernet over power-line adapter.
That's not to say Windows can't be problematic. Try installing Windows 7 on a PC with only USB 3.0, no CD, or Windows XP on a raid PC with no floppy drive, but whenever I run Linux I always end up typing commands from forum posts, adapting them as best I can for whatever distribution I'm trying this time. Had Linux had a single distribution that utterly dominated, I think things would have been easier simply because people would have been writing guides/forum posts/tools for just that distribution instead of the fragmented reality we got today. Windows can be worse at times, to be sure, but it's much easier to google a Windows problem than a Linux problem in my experience.
ManofGod
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I do not see anything wrong with his post, it makes some very valid points. Could you offer solutions to the things he is bringing up? Like people who said, Essential Phone, what is that? Never heard of it, most folks have no clue what Linux is either and could not care less. All they want is their already purchased software to work and have proper support.
naib
[H]ard|Gawd
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no ... the installation of windows and linux (subset of distro's) is soo painfully easy anyone can do it.
naib
[H]ard|Gawd
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where did I say Arch is a downgrade from Mint... its a downgrade from Gentoo
auntjemima
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I edited my post and yeah, you weren't wrong lol
auntjemima
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I had countless usb wifi issues with Linux, even with supported devices, chipsets and drivers, so I feel your pain there.
heatlesssun
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I was trying to address how OEMs might deal with the issue of software compatibility which certainly is a problem if OEMs today offered consumers a large number of PC models with Linux preinstalled. I think there'd have to be some kind of labeling on Linux PCs that they weren't Windows software compatible though with Wine that's not entirely technically correct.
auntjemima
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When I read software I saw drivers.
Wow! OK windose is fine in a dual boot arrangement if you confine it to a partition. It will write to the root of that partition, which is fine, you don't want it writing to the whole drive's MBR. That will screw up yer dual boot. I often just let it take over after levering it in and boot Linux with, the install or whatever and set up lilo , or grub, which then writes the MBR of sda for instance.
Wine needs winetricks. I run Stalker in DX11 on my Slackware install.
, or grub, which then writes the MBR of sda for instance.Wine needs winetricks. I run Stalker in DX11 on my Slackware install.
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Zarathustra[H]
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My take is that for Desktop Linux to get any significant market share, it needs to change in ways that I don't want Linux to change. I'm happy with it being in the 1-2% range, and keeping it the way it is. Part of what I like about Linux is that it is very tweakable, and comes in infinite permutations and combinations I can pick from. For mainstream success, a lot of this would have to change, and it would become dumbed down and less what I am into. So I say keep Linux on the Desktop/Laptop as it is, a niche application with a small install base. Don't go after the mainstream. Quite frankly, the mainstream sucks
If you don't know what you are buying you are always going to have problems.
I think this is less of an issue than it was before in part because of ChromeOS devices having hit the market. Now there is a little bit more of market understanding that there are systems that run different things, and windows isn't everything.
I agree though. Wine IS NOT the solution. It is utter garbage. I gave up on it 10 years ago. I run all work-alike native open source software on my installs. I have a Windows 10 VM I can start up if I need it, but I usually only boot it once every couple of months for some very specific task. (Last time it was I needed to run MakeMKV). I also dual boot to a dedicated Winsows 10 install I use exclusively for games.
I know, someone always comes along and says that they can run game X in wine, but I'm sorry. It is just terrible. Mouse controls are awful, frame rates are a fraction of what you get in Windows, and that's if you can even get it to run at all without crashing.
I've always thought of USB WiFi dongles as a hack. Something you buy for your laptop at the end of its life when it is dying and the internal WiFi no longer works. I didn't realize these were so common place.
The funny thing is, Linux hardware compatibility used to be a big problem, but I have literally not experienced it at all in almost 10 years. Maybe it's because I predominantly install it on desktop hardware without WiFi and older Dell laptops, but over the last several years generally everything has just worked when I go to install it.
It used to be that brand spanking new hardware would have problems for the first few months because the drivers hadn't been reverse engineered and placed into the kernels yet, so if you were bleeding edge on hardware, you'd have frequent problems, but things would generally work on hardware that was 6+ months old. This doesn't appear to be the case anymore from my experience. I upgraded my stepson to a Ryzen machine not to long after launch. Now he prefers windows (because most of what he does is play games) but I used the latest Mint liveCD a lot during setup and configuration, and everything just worked.
I imagine where most of the hardware incompatibility lies these days is in bleeding edge laptops and their chipsets and WiFi cards, especially if they don't use WiFi chipsets from the big common brands. If you buy some cheap second tier brand brand new laptop, they may use a cheap WiFi-card that is not Intel based and then there might be problems...
heatlesssun
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The truth.
The problem is the term "PC". Chromebooks have their own branding and in retail stores generally they are sold in their own section. Something that's called a PC for decades in the consumer space really means Windows PC. A game that's PC compatible for instance really means Windows compatible.
You mean like the labeling on ChromeOS machines ?
Give me a break heatle... consumers aren't exactly that stupid. The massive "ecosystem" of windows software you go on about is mostly BS for average users these days. The stuff the masses use daily is all first world Linux software, that runs better under Linux and hooks properly to every major distros package manager making it even more idiot proof.
Install a major Linux distro and all the software average users use and need is there. Office software.... already installed. VLC, SMplayer, Spotify app, Chrome Browser, Firefox, Thunderbird.... its already all either installed or one click away. Heck some of the major distros are even adding one click installs for Office 360 crap if that is what people really want to use.
The argument that consumers will be confused when most consumers already use at least 2 different Operating systems daily.... is just silly.
auntjemima
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Lol, you always use that "MOST consumers" remark when speaking about Linux. Your 2% for the past couple decades says otherwise.
Your piss poor attitude towards anyone that says they have issues with your beloved OS is the issue. Not the OS, not the average user, YOU.
Which fan controller are you using? I'm getting a new TV console and I really need to put a fan on my amp...
Whats piss poor about calling FUD FUD... average user will be confused is a stupid argument in a world where average users are using iOS / Android / Windows / MacOS. With almost everyone using at least 2 of the 4 majors daily right now.
Over the years I have helped a ton of "average" users with their computers.(and I am sure you and most other people reading [H] have as well) We all have relatives and friends... for whom PC gaming means Facebook games, for who using Word means they need to write a letter a few times a year. They are the masses.
Linux hasn't left 2%... sure very true. It isn't sold pre installed by any of the majors... it would be shocking for GNU/Linux to ever get above 2-3%. No one is arguing that. Linux is never going to take over as long as its path to use is on PCs sold with another OS installed.
I simply can't stand the but regular users would be confused arguments.. Because they are stupid. (also heard the same silly argument since the days when Apple started moving iMacs)
If Linux was pre installed there would be no regular user driver issues... because no OEM is going to ship a broken machine. Regular users do not buy no name USB wifi dongles and all the crap cheapo hardware people hold up as reasons Linux is not ready for X or Y.
Chromebooks are a great example... they are running Linux. Average users don't complain about them... quite the opposite. Average users love them, as long as you can talk someone into actually using one, because there is so much "It isn't a real PC" FUD around. ChromeOS does everything windows does for 99% of the users in the world... and it does it better. I'm not saying there isn't cases for windows... I simply disagree that it is the best option for average users. We can disagree... but I'm not going to accept that average people are to stupid to realize a machine not running windows won't run windows software. lol
auntjemima
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Your argument is flawed. Mobile OS's are not the same as a Desktop OS. Never has been and never will be if we consider the shitty release of Windows 8. The Metro screen was the exact same as a mobile OS screen, except instead of icons they used blocks. It failed, because they are fundamentally different and using a mobile OS as a comparison to a full blown desktop OS just doesn't work.
I completely agree that they are the masses, and because, based on your post, they are mostly stupid, expecting them to function within Linux is asking for trouble. There are people on this very forum trying Linux every day and having issues. Yes, they do have that Windows mentality, where they expect something to be in a certain spot, but don't act like older people aren't exactly the same.
Computers have been around for the majority of the life of ANYONE who is currently alive. Old or young, doesn't matter, everyone is currently in the Windows mindset when trying to fix issues. I use Linux every day, I know where the location of files I need to edit are, I know the terminal commands by heart now, and I can still see that it isn't as easy to transition as you say. You sit in your ivory tower and rag on Windows and I don't think you can see the average users perspective at all.
Again, I agree and thats exactly what Heatlesssun said, in the exact post you admonished him for it.
YES, THEY DO. That is where you are blinded. Regular users buy ANYTHING based on price alone. And don't act like common brands are any better. I have had Linksys dongles not work. Is there a more common brand when it comes to networking? The one and only USB dongle I didn't have issues with was a ACS brand I bought from alibaba almost a decade ago. Some "cheap chinese junk" that works no issue. The issue when buying a usb device is the controller. People see DLink, TP, Netgear, Linksys.. they don't google the item to make sure that revision B1 isn't using a Broadcom controller.
My children use ChromeOS at school and even they find it annoying. They range from 6 - 12 and both sexes (yes, both (2)). Explain to me how a laptop that is extremely cheap AND offers a warranty AND is made by such a well known company AND can be purchased ANYWHERE, makes almost zero inroads outside of educational facilities? Quick, tell me how MS from the 90's caused it. Spin it however you can.
Zarathustra[H]
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Got to love the sibling rivalry in the Linux world.
Arch is a solid distribution. Very active forum community that is very helpful. I tend to prefer Debian based distributions, but you wouldn't go wrong with Arch.
If something happened, and I needed to abandon the Debian/Ubuntu/Mint tree, Arch would be up there among the distributions I'd try first.
That's fair... no doubt the most popular Operating systems are mobile. No they are not aimed at the same hardware. I still think it has helped train the masses that not everything is "windows" compatible. Again not that I think it matters even a little bit... as all the software regular people use is on both operating systems. Windows doesn't have a killer windows app anymore in terms of mass use. Sure we can talk about photoshop and a handful of other programs that are going to be windows / mac only... they just aren't what the masses are using. Office is perhaps the only one that argument could work on... at this point however MS has actually done a good job moving people to 360 in which case again runs just fine under Linux. Some of major distros are even shipping with 360 installers just like windows does. (the neck beards aren't impressed but whatever it ticks that argument box)
Asking the masses to function in windows hasn't exactly been a success. I mean we have all agreed we have had to help relatives and friends for years. Why is that ?
If you give an operating system the power to do powerful things... people are going to muck things up. I'm not blaming MS for making a system that is to hard to use. (although I believe they could do better)... Linux imo isn't any more complicated to use then Windows is.
We can disagree. I don't believe its all that big a transition anymore no. Most users don't need to know where or what /home/.conf/ is... just as they don't need to know how to make changes to their windows registry. For users that want to mess with such things... its not rocket science to figure out how X or Y operating system does things. 10-15 years ago ... no doubt it was a major issue because to use Linux you really did need to understand where those things are. I'm sorry for a distro like Mint... average users don't need to know any of that anymore.
Not exactly... he was saying OEMs would have a big issue with people expecting windows software to run on a machine not running windows. I don't give average users that much credit no... but I don't think they are that stupid either.
Ok but why did you buy a USB wifi dongle to begin with ? I don't see regular users buying them no... unless your talking about them picking one up for some 10 year old machine they have. No one has bought a laptop for years without decent working wifi.
As for cheap Chinese made hardware... its hardly the point anyway. Most of that type of crap has problems with windows as well. Finding a place to download a driver... or not having a version of windows covered. Ect. Shit hardware is shit. Doesn't matter which OS your using for the most part.
Completely different experience from my own kids. Perhaps your kids school bought some crapo hardware. I get that most of the education aimed stuff is low end, and ya I have seen some stinker hardware. The OS itself works just fine. As for google not making inroads. I'm not so sure that is true. Not saying this time next year windows will be replaced by chromeos, just saying they are moving units. There is a ton of FUD to cut through before chromeos devices (if they ever do of course) experience a market share explosion.
Zarathustra[H]
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I agree with this.
If you search my history on these forums when Linux comes up, you'll find that I have made the following statement many times.
Most modern Linux distributions work very well for basic users, and for very advanced users. Where they fail are for the middle users.
Most basic users don't really ever install software. They have their web/email/office needs, and once you set that up for them, a modern Linux distribution will work just fine. They click the browser icon in the menu, the browser opens. They can type letters and use basic spreadsheets, and it generally just works for them. Because it is Linux, they won't hose their systems with malware and other shit as often as they otherwise would, so their computer-loving nephew who always fixes shit when it breaks gets a break too. These users will note that their desktop will look slightly different than windows, but m,ore or less its organized the same, and they never dig into the more advanced settings, so they do just fine. This is where we used to have problems, when your mom would go into Staples and buy a TurboTax CD and wonder why it wouldn't install on her PC, but these days so much of that stuff has moved to the web, that it isn't much of an issue anymore.
Most very advanced users understand the benefits of Linux, and also know the drawbacks. They may or may not decide to use it, considering if those benefits are worth it to them, vs the annoyances of the drawbacks, but they are capable enough to figure out workarounds when they have to.
The problem then is the middle users. The ones who don't have the interest or wherewithal to become knowledgeable with both systems but still want to install tons of shit (programs, games, etc.) For these people Linux will not be a good fit. And that's fine. They don't have to use it.
That is a pretty good break down. Still even with those middle type users... the only reason they would really have any issue with Linux is trying to mess with windows software. Just enough know how to realize things like wine and VMs exist... but perhaps not enough know how to make them work properly, or enough sense to understand its not going to be 100% as stable or as fast as actual windows.
If your installing tons of software via the package manager and Linux games from steam... ignoring all the non linux stuff. Those middle users would also be fine. Yes I agree those types of users won't ignore wine and VMs just saying... if they did Linux or Windows they will run into the same types of issues. Its not always the Operating Systems fault. lol
heatlesssun
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If this really is the case then I wonder why more OEMs don't offer Linux on more models. OEMs are free to do so, with all of the legal issues Microsoft has been through on this they can't use force to stop OEMs from doing so and all the OEMs know have Chromebooks. There's no question that OEMs would run it this problem by offering Linux on gaming PCs.
I nor anyone else has suggested companies should sell Linux gaming boxes at this point. (steam tried that... not going to work yet)
As far as the multiple times larger mass market goes there are plenty of reasons;
- just because MS lost a ton of court cases doesn't mean they are going to be doing hand springs and bending over for companies that don't tow the line. I think the recent PR issues NV have hit should make it clear... just because something isn't spelled out in black and white that doesn't mean its not implied heavily. Why convert even 10% of your line up if your main supplier is going to act like a jilted lover... even you know that's the truth. MS would not react well if a company like HP started shipping a quarter of their lineup with HP linux. lol
- No doubt Linux hasn't really been ready until recenty. I can be honest... 10 years ago Linux wasn't ready, 5 years ago it still wasn't ready. Things have changed a lot in just a few years. A lot of that has to do with that ecosystem you keep going on about... the software the masses actually use all runs on Linux just fine. (that wasn't the case until the last few years) The rise of open source in general... has made a lot of the issues of operating system disappear. No one needs to learn a new browser... or loose their book marks. No one needs to figure out a new media software... most people average can run Linux today and use 95% of the exact same software. No doubt that hasn't been the case until recently.
- There is one big company offering $ support... I'm not saying MS pays OEMs to run windows. But in the case of the biggest ones they do indirectly through co marketing funds ect. Yes MS lost a bunch of law suits... but that didn't put a complete end to MS being able to support their OEM customers. So unless a company like canonical or red hat all of a sudden starts burning money courting OEMs in a way that makes sense for them to give MS the finger, I wouldn't expect the HPs of the world to do anything bold.
I have agreed that GNU/Linux (ubuntu fedora suse arch anything else) isn't going main stream any time soon if ever. Someone needs to solve the real business issues with Linux... and they are not issues of Hardware or software support... the entire tech industry supports both. Linux is the largest joint tech project in the world and every major OEM / hardware company / software publisher is a member. The issues are mainly MS still has a death lock on OEMS. Unless you honestly believe a few slap on the finger rulings really changed anything for MS.... if you believe that then Nvidias recent failure I'm sure will be the end forever of their attempts to control their market with slimy tactics.
Linux will win when one of two things happen... both are likely imo.
1) Google will continue expanding ChromeOS... and eventually replace MacOS as #2, and then over 4-5 years progress toward the #1 spot.
2) Somewhere along the line MS will release Windows 11 (under whatever terrible marketing name they choose) with a windows DE running on a Linux base. (I get that sounds crazy to you heatle... but its less crazy then when I first said it 2 years ago, its far less crazy then it was a year ago... and in a year or so more and more people will start saying it. Is going to happen at some point)
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heatlesssun
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But as some will point out, the average gaming PC isn't a gaming PC, they tend to be fairly basic machines. There's tons of light weight indie content on Steam these days that's Windows only. If OEMs could just plop a Linux distro on a typical consumer PC and few would notice there'd be a lot more consumer facing Linux PCs out there.
I agree completely.
It might even happen at some point in the next few years.
The main issue is the old adage. "No one got fired for choosing IBM." I doubt there are many people out there in the corporate world willing to stick their heads out. That may change. As I said I admit Linux hasn't really been ready for that until recently. I use Linux steam... and ya I'm very happy with the selection. But someone at a company like HP would have to put their head on the block to decide tomorrow to ship millions of Linux running machines. No one ever got fired for shipping a windows box.
SuperSubZero
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I like how one of the very first things you should do after installing Mint is "clean up your system."
Oh, and "don't use the default package manager it sux use this other one LETS FIRE UP A TERMINAL!"
Oh, and "don't use the default package manager it sux use this other one LETS FIRE UP A TERMINAL!"
Zarathustra[H]
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Yeah, I don't necessarily agree with this list.
There is absolutely no reason to ever use anytning other than apt to install packages in a Debian/Ubuntu/mint install. All this snap/flatpack junk is unnecessary. At worst, install a ppa add-on to the default apt repositories and leave it at that.
And clean up? Yeah, an apt-get autoremove makes sense after doing some kernel updates (or the old kernels will waste drive space) but you shouldn't have to as soon as you install.
lol true. Its hard to argue that some of the long time Linux users... not always the best people to evangelize Linux switching.
Stock Mint is pretty solid.
Nenu
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Wish I could help.
I found it among a load of old gear and stashed it in case it was useful.
I havent seen another.
Its unpowered and seems to be a variable resistor inside a small plastic box with a knob.
I dont know what else is inside the box.
heatlesssun
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If this were generally the case then OEMs would probably be selling tons of Linux gaming PCs.
Linux as a serious gaming platform is what 2 years old at most, Steam hasn't even been on Linux for 5 years total yet. So sure heatle, that OEMs aren't pushing it must mean its horrid.
If progress keeps moving forward I know you don't wanna hear it Heatle but Windows is not forever going to be the go to gaming OS. I'm not arguing with you Windows is the better gaming platform currently... Its not the only option nor is it the only good option. I don't believe windows is always going to be the go to option. At some point Google is coming for Microsofts gaming cookies, and they are going to come hard. When that happens folks like you and I are likely going to be Linux gamers... while the masses play on their locked down Google boxes. As long as google pushes a Linux powered offline mode and doesn't go 100% streaming that will be possible. Or you will be able to stay on Windows.... Vulcan and OpenGL do run on Windows.
If google locks it down... You an I better hope their service doesn't become the netflix of gaming. (more you as you have so many thousands sunk into your PC.)
I'm not sure if I'm joking with you or not right now... cause ya if Google does manage the netflix of games and draws a ton of developer support, its not going to mean good things for PC gaming in general Windows or Linux.
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heatlesssun
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You said you were happy with the gaming selection of Linux. I think what you say here is an acknowledgment that generally most people wouldn't be as happy.
Linux is still well behind macOS in terms of user base and gaming title count. I never said that Windows would always be anything but at this point desktop Linux gaming is really only for desktop Linux fans.
One rumor about Google getting into gaming and Microsoft is toast in gaming. Probably would be best to see if the rumors are true and what Google is even offering.
Again, we'll have to see what Google is offering. Everyone is trying to get into gaming these days because gamers spend money and are a loyal customer base. This is a crowed space, Google will have to spend billions against other companies that are far from broke. And then they'll have execute nearly perfectly.
You know what makes you annoying to argue with. You have zero reading comprehension.
No what I am saying is... OEMs don't willy nilly choose to support something new. Nintendo can't even convince big software companies to support their new systems... and they have a long track record as the most profitable gaming company ever. So yes Linux with valve alone spending money backing it right now for all of a couple years is going to attract big time support. You know a lot of people would be very happy with Linux as a gaming platform... but the types of gamers that would be happy are not the type of computer users that are in general installing their own operating systems over the one that shipped on their hardware.
I'm done arguing with you about Linux. We can agree to disagree. Go away.
You believe MS and windows is the best thing ever and its going to be on PCs till the end of time. That is all I need to know. I disagree. We can agree on that. The end.