DAN C4-SFX: The smallest water cooling case in the world

If the included boxed cooler isn't able to cool the cpu even with turbo off this shouldn't be allowed and is not fair to customers. For me the 8700 is a unfinished and bad product.

I am really thinking of only showing Ryzen results to not make marketing for them.
The biggest joke is the TDP of 65W.
 
If the included boxed cooler isn't able to cool the cpu even with turbo off this shouldn't be allowed and is not fair to customers. For me the 8700 is a unfinished and bad product.

I am really thinking of only showing Ryzen results to not make marketing for them.
The biggest joke is the TDP of 65W.
the included cooler(all intel coolers) is designed to keep it under 100c in a normal atx tower. in your case its clearly isn't gonna cut it but its not an unfinished or bad product. just not up to our [H] standards.
 
I know you recommend blower style VGA. but many users prefer aftermarket vga.
Can you measure heat with aftermarket vga?
 
What's the timing for this project? Is there a (yes very) rough idea when this case will be availalbe for purchase?
 
Why not use some other CPU stress testing software? Isn't Prime95 pretty much found to destroy Intel chips in an unintended way? It thermal throttles my 4770k with no overclock on a huge Noctua C12P SE14 cooler.

Certainly there are more modern pieces of software that more accurately stress/heat test your hardware.
 
Why not use some other CPU stress testing software? Isn't Prime95 pretty much found to destroy Intel chips in an unintended way? It thermal throttles my 4770k with no overclock on a huge Noctua C12P SE14 cooler.

Certainly there are more modern pieces of software that more accurately stress/heat test your hardware.
I bet it wouldn't, if Intel would have soldered the Heatspreader onto the Die like AMD does (and Intel used to do) - or if you delidded it.

The solution to crappy CPU making can't be using less hard stresstests, so it won't look as bad.
 
He just posted a few ideas in the german Computerbase.de forum today. He will probably post the same here before long.
 
Reading there, it looks like there is a major redesign of the case, looks more like the A4 now than the prototype.
 
Reading there, it looks like there is a major redesign of the case, looks more like the A4 now than the prototype.

Indeed. I don't like the path he's heading with this project. Unibody is starting to look really dated. Even Lian Li is moving away from it. If he's concerned about scratched internals, how about how having the panels assembled in the box? You have to dismantle everything for the build anyways.

Seems like his mind makes sense for a new mATX case with negative air pressure radiator cooling. That's fine, but it's not for this ITX case. He should focus on launching it instead. Nothing will ever be perfect, especially when making a tiny case. Compromises are a necessity.

If he can just get the plas panels working, I'd say the project seems to be ready for kickstarter and production.
 
Indeed. I don't like the path he's heading with this project. Unibody is starting to look really dated. Even Lian Li is moving away from it. If he's concerned about scratched internals, how about how having the panels assembled in the box? You have to dismantle everything for the build anyways.

Seems like his mind makes sense for a new mATX case with negative air pressure radiator cooling. That's fine, but it's not for this ITX case. He should focus on launching it instead. Nothing will ever be perfect, especially when making a tiny case. Compromises are a necessity.

If he can just get the plas panels working, I'd say the project seems to be ready for kickstarter and production.

From what I read, I feel like the scratched internal is a result of the case being too cramp, I do wonder if increasing the volume a little bit will solve that issue. I get it means a bigger case, but I think a lot of people can live with that while keeping the prototype aesthetics.

Edit, I reread it again, so the revised C4 will be bigger, interesting Dan couldn't keep the same aesthetics with a bigger case. I get it he said it will be easier to produce with a unibody design but a bit disappointed it came to that.
 
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Scratches anywhere will result in returned items from people who are not members of forums like this and understand the difficulties and compromises which Dondan has had to make.

People are usually sanguine about scratched they make themselves, but not so much a freshly manufactured premium priced product like the C4.

Not sure how I feel about the new design. I like the A4 a lot and in hindsight it might have been a better option for me than the Ncase since I ended up dropping 3.5" drives anyway, but I did feel that the move away from the A4 design meant he lost a family look. Holes in the front take it even further away so that's my main objection.
 
Lol he said this thread is dead. Guess he didn't realize we were waiting for more test results....

I agree on the unibody thing. Sure the A4 is kinda his baby, but it's just one case. I don't think just because hsi first case had that unibody design means that every case needs to have it now.
Being honest I never liked the A4 design. I admired the compactness. But never even considered buying it simply cause I didn't like having a case on my desk that I don't find aesthetically pleasing. It's too rounded. Too apple like. Too feminine in a sense.

The C4 with the more angular and modern look was love at first sight. I'll be gutted when he goes for the A4 look.
 
Hey dondan would be nice if you update this thread as well :)

I totally understand your reasons for ditching the previous design but if you are opting for unibody design you should consider implementing a different look rather than mimicking the one in the A4. It may end up looking similar to an InWin 909 (released back in 2015 btw).

If possible, try making it more sleek and angular. You can still keep some design elements of the previous design (that many of us loved) and apply them to the unibody approach.

Remember to take your time, the "easy" way is not always the "right" one.
 
Just for ease of viewing:

upload_2018-6-27_9-9-23.png

upload_2018-6-27_9-9-44.png


I'm skeptical of a passive radiator - despite dondan testing this. Sorry Dan!

However, the front intake guarantees fresh non circulated air with low noise as a full thickness fan is used.
If this was a concept for a purely windowed case then I'm more positive it would work as intended. Pretty much a win/win for me with the window and airflow design. Of course, I'd still advocate flipping the entire design to use as a roof mounted rad (less back pressure | natural convection) with at least some slim fans to actively ventilate that rad.
 
However, the front intake guarantees fresh non circulated air with low noise as a full thickness fan is used.
If this was a concept for a purely windowed case then I'm more positive it would work as intended. Pretty much a win/win for me with the window and airflow design. Of course, I'd still advocate flipping the entire design to use as a roof mounted rad (less back pressure | natural convection) with at least some slim fans to actively ventilate that rad.

It's not front intake. Look more closely. It's exhaust. This is a negative pressure setup, pulling air through the rads by exhausting through the front.
I'm not into this design. Firstly it looks meh. Secondly it probably creates a pretty stagnant air pocket in the top corner of the mainboard. With watercooling being the intended usecase, there is no fan anywhere close to cool the VRMs either.

If he could just make a limited run of even the unfinished prototype design I'd get one. Not much into the new direction.
 
Sorry for give you this update so late. Currently I am in the process of redesigning the case.


The reason for this is problems with the current prototypes and the feeling that the design isn’t perfect. On the current design the inner body (frame where the outer parts will attached) will get scratches if you install the top and bottom panels. The parts need to made 100% to be ok but this is as you now impossible. Furthermore I don’t find a solution to attach the outer panels without screws, because there is no space for clips and slide in technic will also not work. Furthermore the final product needs to be bigger to have more room for cable management and routing.


The great news is that the cooling concept works. My plan is now to search for new solutions for the C4 everything is possible. Here are two concept ideas. I also have two more ideas in my pipeline but I need to check them with Lian Li first.


These are only ideas:


ITX Case – default Layout with Unibody (130x255x320,8 = 10.6L)

This is not a new idea i posted it some month ago:

testkmubf.jpg




ITX Case – front FAN (130x245x350 = 11.2L)

This next idea is based on cooling with negative or positive pressure. There are only two vent areas under the radiator and in the front. Two fans will suck all air out of the case and new air will come through the radiator. I know a case have here and there also holes where air can go through but this doesn’t matter. 95% of the air will go through the radiator. I tested it with an carton that wasn’t closed perfectly.


This design will allow you to install radiators up to 60mm in height. Or a thinner one with fans directly attached on it.

c4vcj0z.jpg

c4_2wzjd5.jpg



With best regards
Daniel
 
Seems like it would be better to put the twin fans on the top, not the side. Airflow bottom to top makes sense to me. I don't like the side-flow in any case, as someone else mentioned the top corner getting hot. I see this all the time with cases.
 
My opinion is that you should just design it around the simplest possible implementation options and widest application of AIO's first. Those of us who are prepared to put in more time and effort will shoehorn extra stuff in but it will otherwise be widely usable by as many people as possible.

  1. Must be compatible with the biggest possible 120's which includes Kraken G12/Eiswolf on the GPU with thick ol' rads and full sized fans.
  2. Must allow a 240 instead of the two 120's.
  3. If someone wants to compromise for a 240 and additional 120 somewhere then allow that - what to remove though? Perhaps only thin rads?
  4. 280 possible? That's a further nice compromise but perhaps at the expense of overall size which defeats the object a little. That additional width isn't otherwise useful in a watercooled system
  5. Mounting point for a reservoir/pump combo for custom loops. If people want separate res/pump then they can make compromises.
The result is that anyone can watercool using widely available components in options 1 or 2. People chasing temps can work a compromise for 3 or 4. Nutters (who I should add I greatly admire for their amazing handiwork) can go for 5. Importantly you get a lot of entry level people with 1&2. Even if the 'look' is right then group 5 is always going to be a smaller number anyway.

I know I'm oversimplifying but on a forum like this I think it's easy to end up being shaped by esoteric requirements of enthusiasts when a potential easy build is the route to more popularity. Just think how much time you'll save by telling everyone that any old 120 will fit?
 
dondan, on the SFF forum you alluded to a (possible) return of the A4-style riser and layout. Can you elaborate?
 
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So basically the C4 is now going to look identical to my 6 year old Lian Li v700?

4818_99_lian_li_pc_v700_b_mid_tower_chassis_review.jpg
lian_li_pc_v700wx_mid_tower_case_1219349.jpg


Why? Who cares if the inner painted bode can get a little scratched. My Lian Li v700 have scratches around all the rivets. At least you can repaint/fix painted aluminium. It's the anodized parts that are problematic.

As for the screws, I really don't see them as a problem. If people don't like the Philips screws, just use torx. They look amazing. People can upgrade that for modding, if they want.

As for dual 12cm radiators: CLC's on a video card is very rare, and it's harder to mod a card for it, than just use custom cooling. The original idea of having a 24cm radiator for the CPU alone, that would also work as case airflow was just fine. Your temp testing even proved that.

I bought the v700 because it looked good and was the smallest good ATX case I could find back then. But the thing is not nice looking anymore, and the entire concept of unibody just seems really dated (I'm sure LL made cases like this before the v700 in 2012).

If there are some issues with panels going all the way to the front panel, just go back to the original concept with a stripe all the way around the back of the front panel. It looked awesome. Probably cheaper/easier to make glass panel for that (you only need glass on one side anyways).

That's just my 2 €cents. I'm not going to buy an ITX case in 2019 that looks like my dated 2012 case. Not gonna happen. The A4 got a pass, because the size made it so unique. But even that looks dated too.

Everything that made the C4 unique is gone in this new version: The front stripe behind the front plate, the square corners, the ease of flipping the case, the side IO and the side power button. A real shame.
 
The reason for this is problems with the current prototypes and the feeling that the design isn’t perfect. On the current design the inner body (frame where the outer parts will attached) will get scratches if you install the top and bottom panels. The parts need to made 100% to be ok but this is as you now impossible. Furthermore I don’t find a solution to attach the outer panels without screws, because there is no space for clips and slide in technic will also not work. Furthermore the final product needs to be bigger to have more room for cable management and routing.
dondan
At this point, just make it bigger, most will not even notice the increase in size. If a (slightly) bigger case allows better cable management, panel clips (or slide in panels), better radiator support, you should definitely go for it.
As for the scratches issue, can you consider to add something like a rubber padding on the top and the bottom of the frame to prevent them? The frame might look less "clean", but it's covered by the panels anyway, so nobody would care.
Alternatively, you might consider adding a rubber padding to the panels themselves, maybe it's even a better solution.

Keep us posted! ;)
 
Notional It is not uncommon for "old designs" to come back into fashion. While I agree with you that the current idea is a step back, I'm positive that Dan can make Unibody Design look great even in 2018/2019.

Don't forget what Dan said:
These are only ideas
He still has to decide whether or not opting for the Unibody approach.

I know that it's a difficult task but let us try to be positive and constructive if we really want to help him.
 
Sorry for give you this update so late. Currently I am in the process of redesigning the case.
The reason for this is problems with the current prototypes and the feeling that the design isn’t perfect. On the current design the inner body (frame where the outer parts will attached) will get scratches if you install the top and bottom panels. The parts need to made 100% to be ok but this is as you now impossible. Furthermore I don’t find a solution to attach the outer panels without screws, because there is no space for clips and slide in technic will also not work. Furthermore the final product needs to be bigger to have more room for cable management and routing.

dondan You mean this part gets scratched?:
23korrr.jpg




That's not visible once the panel is on.

But if you really want to redesign because of this. You could just trim the top and bottom panels down so they are flat pieces without any bending. Extend the side panels so they fill the entire side, no more scratches. Also it would probably even look better:

whf7h4.png




EDIT:
Also slide in technique would work with this. When you make the panel pins slide in BEFORE screwing the top panel on. So the top panel holds the pins inside the slot. Hope you get what I mean
 

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If you're chasing fashion then this is what other influential manufacturers are doing. All comments are of course wholly subjective and to my taste;
  • Apple Mac Pro (remember the cheesegrater Lian Li and the old Mac pro shared many design elements) is a waste bin design but closed so you can't see components.
  • Lian-Li PC-Q37 is all windows and slots which is great for a modders bedroom or lan party but awful for a livingroom.
  • Corsair hasn't made a good looking case in years. Carbide is fugly and Obsidian dull. Less said about Graphite the better.
  • NZXT is a good one - they've introduced lots of coloured elements in their H200 range and perhaps this is where designs are heading today?
  • Phanteks Evolv I mention here because that also uses lots of coloured components and looks very modern today. I really like the Evolv Shift too but the great looking front panel which reminds me of some Half Life 2 architectural elements adds volume to allow airflow.
  • Fractal design I like but they are quite plain, like the Corsair Obsidian and there's something not right about the layouts to my mind.
  • Thermaltake Core P1 is by far and away the most interesting design to me because of the choices made around displaying components. I wouldn't buy one, but it's an amazingly brave design. I'd probably want a larger P3 configured fully passive like this one at QuietPC - https://www.quietpc.com/sys-corep3. Sensational, like a work of art on your desk with the right components.
  • Silverstone is hard to pin down. They seem to be trying for smaller sizes but then go and do silly things like specify ATX PSU's. FT03 mini is a long term favourite of mine. In black it belongs in Darth Vader's study but it's too big overall.
There are plenty of cases which make compromises on size in order to chase design but here Dondan wants to prioritise size which puts serious limitations on what can be done. Additional volume for the sake of an exterior design element or fan clearance compartment is a compromise I don't think is worth making here. It means that ultimately inner corners should fit as tightly to the components as they can and outer ones follow this. It means there's no room for a compartment for warm air dispersal, it just needs holes. Hiding holes means putting them on the bottom or at the back or just be happy that they are on show.

I don't know really, it's a really hard task he's set himself and some people will hate and others will love but it's important to understand the limitations of the brief and what can be done with that. There must be holes somewhere - it's unavoidable.
 
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If you're chasing fashion then this is what other influential manufacturers are doing. All comments are of course wholly subjective and to my taste;
  • Apple Mac Pro (remember the cheesegrater Lian Li and the old Mac pro shared many design elements) is a waste bin design but closed so you can't see components.
  • Lian-Li PC-Q37 is all windows and slots which is great for a modders bedroom or lan party but awful for a livingroom.
  • Corsair hasn't made a good looking case in years. Carbide is fugly and Obsidian dull. Less said about Graphite the better.
  • NZXT is a good one - they've introduced lots of coloured elements in their H200 range and perhaps this is where designs are heading today?
  • Phanteks Evolv I mention here because that also uses lots of coloured components and looks very modern today. I really like the Evolv Shift too but the great looking front panel which reminds me of some Half Life 2 architectural elements adds volume to allow airflow.
  • Fractal design I like but they are quite plain, like the Corsair Obsidian and there's something not right about the layouts to my mind.
  • Thermaltake Core P1 is by far and away the most interesting design to me because of the choices made around displaying components. I wouldn't buy one, but it's an amazingly brave design. I'd probably want a larger P3 configured fully passive like this one at QuietPC - https://www.quietpc.com/sys-corep3. Sensational, like a work of art on your desk with the right components.
  • Silverstone is hard to pin down. They seem to be trying for smaller sizes but then go and do silly things like specify ATX PSU's. FT03 mini is a long term favourite of mine. In black it belongs in Darth Vader's study but it's too big overall.
There are plenty of cases which make compromises on size in order to chase design but here Dondan wants to prioritise size which puts serious limitations on what can be done. Additional volume for the sake of an exterior design element or fan clearance compartment is a compromise I don't think is worth making here. It means that ultimately inner corners should fit as tightly to the components as they can and outer ones follow this. It means there's no room for a compartment for warm air dispersal, it just needs holes. Hiding holes means putting them on the bottom or at the back or just be happy that they are on show.

I don't know really, it's a really hard task he's set himself and some people will hate and others will love but it's important to understand the limitations of the brief and what can be done with that. There must be holes somewhere - it's unavoidable.
Obsidian 500d brought corsair back into the fold for me. Very modern designs they go for now and a liltte too much RGB.

Dan Personally I think the case looks fantastic. All I would want is enough rad space for a 240 for my cpu and a 240 for my GPU. Im a little excessive on cooling.
 
dondan here's a graphical representation of my previous suggestion:

ezgif.com-resized8szk.gif
 

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