China Stealing US Tech

FrgMstr

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
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This is a very interesting read over at The New York Times, which is archived here. The basics of the case outline that Micron former employees stole confidential memory chip designs with the intention to deliver those to Taiwan's UMC and China's FJICC. When Taiwanese police raided UMC's offices, laptops, phones, and USB keys with the data were passed off to other employees to abscond with. However the movement was tracked via the cell phone.


Micron grew suspicious, according to its court documents, after discovering that one of its departing engineers had turned to Google for instructions on how to wipe a company laptop. Later, at a recruiting event in the United States aimed at Micron employees, Jinhua and UMC showed PowerPoint slides that used Micron’s internal code names when discussing future chips it would make, according to the court documents.
 
The cloak and dagger end of corporate espionage can be right out of the movies sometimes.
 
Shocking! This Can't Be True! Next you're gonna tell me that water is wet or fire is hot.
 
But China loves IP law and enforces is regularly. After all they are engineering geniuses when it comes to inventing their own tech that rivals US companies. /s
 
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CombatChrisNC said:
If they've been doing this forever, WHY oh WHY do US companies continue to build factories over there?

We've got space here, people. And infrastructure.

Because short term profits > EVERYTHING ELSE.
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Because China is the largest growing market for a number of companies. Also because it makes manufacturing cost lower which makes the bottom line fatter.

Ask Schwinn how well that worked out for them.
 
Time2Kill said:
The problem is China doesn't enforce copy right protection. Major reason why Trump is doing the trade way to protect US company's IP. China outright steals/copies everything, just look at the cars below.


http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/87772/unbelievable-chinese-copycat-cars

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...nspiration-behind-these-designs-a7015966.html
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enforce it? HA. They encourage swiping of US tech, especially on big ticket items. Have you seen their stealth fighter knock off?
 
In this specific case I don't give 0 fuks, they've been rigging prices for decades and I will welcome chinese memory chips with open arms.
 
We go over there because they can already steal from us right here in the good-ole US of A. At least by going there it cuts the prices of the manufactured goods by half, vastly increasing your potential market for digital goods (the smartphone revolution is mostly due to Chinese manufacturing).

It's not like you can vet every single employees history accurately, so yes you get sellers of information. And then there's always been hacking and straight-up theft of equipment (servers, laptops, etc).

Encryption makes this harder, but if you can hack systems you can steal passwords.

Non-story is non-story, this happens in a weekly basis. The thieves just normally don't make it so easy to track them down :D
 
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defaultluser said:
Non-story is non-story, this happens in a weekly basis. The thieves just normally don't make it so easy to track them down :D
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Yes, it's an old story and a common story all over the world. The Bureau of Alternative Facts and Propaganda sent this story down sycophant wire because China is the big bad for today.

Unfortunately the US economy is becoming more and more reliant on exports to China while China's reliance on the US shrinks by the day. Hell, service exports mysteriously never make it into any trade information from the Bureau of Alternate Facts and Propaganda.

The American regime is not wrong, China is a fucking creepy place to do business for so many more reasons than just a total disregard for IP both internally and internationally. They use their prison system like a tool for blackmail, they exert enormous pressure on their trade partners to accept their bullshit as well. China also knows they have all the cards, the US is currently trying to start trade wars with 37 separate markets all at once, mostly on spurious grounds. Isolating itself and weakening its own export sector right before it tries to take on the one country that can absolutely crush its economy.

I hope it works out and China can be brought into the fold as something more like a partner and less like a predator, but it's not likely. Whether it's hundreds of billions in subsidies Pradon me: "defence grants" or refusal to enforce intellectual property laws, nobody wants to trade fair these days. Especially if they feel like they're big enough that the rules shouldn't apply to them.
 
So while this may seem unrelated, it actually helps explains this to an extent:

Confucianism essentially teaches that it is morally wrong to individually profit off an idea, thus their gleeful IP theft.
Their world view tells them they are doing the good, morally correct thing in doing what we call IP theft.
 
TheCommander said:
Yep looks like the F35. Some of their naval vessels also look like ones from the US. Why spend billions on R&D when you can just steal it.
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Looking like and behaving like are two different things, however. Not that China isn't famous for IP theft, but they're also famous for making a lot of "not quite there knockoffs". And there are plenty of extremely talented people there, where everyone's borrowing from everyone for best practices. (hence why we see such design convergence across the board)

But why make subtler claims when we can just shoot from the hip?
 
Derfnofred said:
Looking like and behaving like are two different things, however. Not that China isn't famous for IP theft, but they're also famous for making a lot of "not quite there knockoffs". And there are plenty of extremely talented people there, where everyone's borrowing from everyone for best practices. (hence why we see such design convergence across the board)

But why make subtler claims when we can just shoot from the hip?
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Mostly it's "them" borrowing from "us" without compensation or credit or permission.

China, on a per capita basis, isn't even in the same ballpark on the innovation scale. Not even in the same league. Probably not the same sport.
 
Twisted Kidney said:
Yes, it's an old story and a common story all over the world. The Bureau of Alternative Facts and Propaganda sent this story down sycophant wire because China is the big bad for today.

Unfortunately the US economy is becoming more and more reliant on exports to China while China's reliance on the US shrinks by the day. Hell, service exports mysteriously never make it into any trade information from the Bureau of Alternate Facts and Propaganda.

The American regime is not wrong, China is a fucking creepy place to do business for so many more reasons than just a total disregard for IP both internally and internationally. They use their prison system like a tool for blackmail, they exert enormous pressure on their trade partners to accept their bullshit as well. China also knows they have all the cards, the US is currently trying to start trade wars with 37 separate markets all at once, mostly on spurious grounds. Isolating itself and weakening its own export sector right before it tries to take on the one country that can absolutely crush its economy.

I hope it works out and China can be brought into the fold as something more like a partner and less like a predator, but it's not likely. Whether it's hundreds of billions in subsidies Pradon me: "defence grants" or refusal to enforce intellectual property laws, nobody wants to trade fair these days. Especially if they feel like they're big enough that the rules shouldn't apply to them.
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I feel like we will be able to ditch China more as manufacturing partner as automation picks up speed. But that's still 10 years down the line, so for today we still have to deal wit these assholes.

Trump is sending mixed signals with his Trade Wars, while looking to pardon ZTE at the same time. This accomplishes nothing.
 
Makaveli@BETA said:
Engineer doesn't know how to wipe a laptop has to google it ?
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In this case, I would imagine "wipe" would mean "wipe everything so it can't possibly be recovered by third party tools", which most people wouldn't know how to do without looking it up.
 
Given China is going to get your corporate and technological secrets in time anyways when does licensing become more advantageous?

Ya patent protection is nice and all, when not in China, doesn't really seem effective till China adopts international law (patent wise).
 
gamerk2 said:
In this case, I would imagine "wipe" would mean "wipe everything so it can't possibly be recovered by third party tools", which most people wouldn't know how to do without looking it up.
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Oh well, dd is your friend here.

I am amused by the 'we are genius innovators and they are primitive savages' nonsense. They have a different take on intellectual property, one I rather like, as an old free software guy. Fuck open sores! ;)
 
Joust said:
Mostly it's "them" borrowing from "us" without compensation or credit or permission.

China, on a per capita basis, isn't even in the same ballpark on the innovation scale. Not even in the same league. Probably not the same sport.
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We can use a thousand different metrics to measure ____ sizes even if my point wasn't a competitive one, more that innovation and intellectual property theft is a worldwide thing, and that convergence of design is natural (copycatism). China is no doubt an egregious offender of IP theft. Per capita is, well, one way to make yourself feel better.

I get the luxury of working with some really bright, hard working Chinese guys and girls, and did through grad school as well. Hopefully we (the US) can keep them, because they're a great resource.
 
LazN said:
Confucianism essentially teaches that it is morally wrong to individually profit off an idea, thus their gleeful IP theft.
Their world view tells them they are doing the good, morally correct thing in doing what we call IP theft.
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If by that you mean Confucius and his acolytes were glorified freeloaders, then yes. Although you mistake pragmatism for morality; Chinese dogma is more about results at any cost. By that I of course mean modern legalism as transitioned beginning in the second half of the 20th century under Mao. See: Keay's China, Vogel's Deng Xiaoping, and McGregor's The Party.
 
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gamerk2 said:
In this case, I would imagine "wipe" would mean "wipe everything so it can't possibly be recovered by third party tools", which most people wouldn't know how to do without looking it up.
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Gausing magnet if HDD, or specialized utility from mfg if SSD. Although technically speaking, SSD wear leveling (TRIM) will automatically reset or cleanup released blocks. Even in the spare area. Or use a freeware program you know isn't compromised and has good research behind it.

Or my favorite, clip the chip leads, remove them, smash them, then smash the platters, or put a drill through it.
 
Derfnofred said:
We can use a thousand different metrics to measure ____ sizes even if my point wasn't a competitive one, more that innovation and intellectual property theft is a worldwide thing, and that convergence of design is natural (copycatism). China is no doubt an egregious offender of IP theft. Per capita is, well, one way to make yourself feel better.

I get the luxury of working with some really bright, hard working Chinese guys and girls, and did through grad school as well. Hopefully we (the US) can keep them, because they're a great resource.
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Summary: China is a bad offender, but don't hold it against Chinese people.

Sure. You seem a little defensive of your friends and colleagues. Not unhealthy. I also worked with an incredibly diverse group of people in grad school, including Russians, Chinese, Koreans, etc. In fact, my closest friend in that time of my life was Chinese. I also observed many recurring cultural aspects. I never said these people, on an individual level, were not great resources or not hard working. I would never say that. However, as a people - not a person - it's about as far away from individualistic, free-thinking, creative, and innovative society as exists.

The point of the per capita issue is that, even by just the numbers, China should have some of the smartest - objectively most intelligent - people on the planet. And yet, the innovations coming out of China? Not so thrilling.
 
Joust said:
Summary: China is a bad offender, but don't hold it against Chinese people.

Sure. You seem a little defensive of your friends and colleagues. Not unhealthy. I also worked with an incredibly diverse group of people in grad school, including Russians, Chinese, Koreans, etc. In fact, my closest friend in that time of my life was Chinese. I also observed many recurring cultural aspects. I never said these people, on an individual level, were not great resources or not hard working. I would never say that. However, as a people - not a person - it's about as far away from individualistic, free-thinking, creative, and innovative society as exists.

The point of the per capita issue is that, even by just the numbers, China should have some of the smartest - objectively most intelligent - people on the planet. And yet, the innovations coming out of China? Not so thrilling.
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I think that's more of a cultural thing. Mom and pop shops counterfeit common goods that you see on Amazon. However large corporate entities have a "Just do you job and nothing else" mentality in China. Employees are viewed as tools and not knowledgeable resources which can enhance a company with ideas. The idea of a union where employees have more power would be scoffed at in China. (And I do agree unions and free competition do have their place in certain sectors to prevent abuse. Particularly where there are high risk jobs.)
 
That is a standard operating procedure for China. Manufacurers of every type that have opened facilities in China for production of hard goods have found STUNNINGLY accurate knockoffs of those exact products in short order.

I have a friend in the... hardware providing industry to the military. A competitor of thiers took a contract to build engines in china for the Chinese Military. It took 2 years and China ended the contract and went about using a purely chinese company to build the exact same engines and broke contract with the original provider and left them floundering. They do this without thinking ALL THE TIME. They really don't give two shits.
 
Joust said:
Summary: China is a bad offender, but don't hold it against Chinese people.

Sure. You seem a little defensive of your friends and colleagues. Not unhealthy. I also worked with an incredibly diverse group of people in grad school, including Russians, Chinese, Koreans, etc. In fact, my closest friend in that time of my life was Chinese. I also observed many recurring cultural aspects. I never said these people, on an individual level, were not great resources or not hard working. I would never say that. However, as a people - not a person - it's about as far away from individualistic, free-thinking, creative, and innovative society as exists.

The point of the per capita issue is that, even by just the numbers, China should have some of the smartest - objectively most intelligent - people on the planet. And yet, the innovations coming out of China? Not so thrilling.
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That's a far more balanced perspective than the original post I quoted that was "rah rah you ess aye, you ess aye!", thanks for meeting me much more in the middle. World's a pretty complex place. That's my message.
 
defaultluser said:
I feel like we will be able to ditch China more as manufacturing partner as automation picks up speed. But that's still 10 years down the line, so for today we still have to deal wit these assholes.

Trump is sending mixed signals with his Trade Wars, while looking to pardon ZTE at the same time. This accomplishes nothing.
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I disagree, it's not like they don't talk. It's not like someone from the Administration or the State Department didn't have meetings with ZTE and therefor, the Chinese Government and lay it out for them. They made a deal. Trust me, they made a deal. Now was it a smart deal, will China honor it? I have my doubts, but it does depend on what that deal is.
 
Joust said:
The point of the per capita issue is that, even by just the numbers, China should have some of the smartest - objectively most intelligent - people on the planet. And yet, the innovations coming out of China? Not so thrilling.
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Actually this is in large part due to actions of an rather ancient Chinese emperor. He had everyone tested and those who showed a higher than x intellect were deemed a threat and executed. Think about that. That's a large part of why Chinese innovation is surprisingly rare for the size of the population. I believe it was Qun Shi Huang who it is attributed to.
 
It's not just the theft of intellectual property or China's cheap labor. The Chinese government hates the idea of Chinese wealth being spent overseas. It is acceptable for an individual to have a foreign product, since that can be a status symbol, but at China's industrial level it is unacceptable to depend on foreign companies. Does anyone remember the push to remove Microsoft from all enterprise level servers?
 
What? China stealing ideas and IP? Bullshit, I don't believe it.
 
defaultluser said:
I feel like we will be able to ditch China more as manufacturing partner as automation picks up speed. But that's still 10 years down the line, so for today we still have to deal wit these assholes.

Trump is sending mixed signals with his Trade Wars, while looking to pardon ZTE at the same time. This accomplishes nothing.
Click to expand...

Not really, my family is involved manufacturing. There are tons of cases where its no where near simple. The idea that most Americans have is that the only reason that China can win a outsourcing job is because their employees are abused and under paid. Fact is if you actually are involved in the situation it is far deeper than that. Example production line that was being produced in Michigan was being reviewed. 1 option was to outsource it to china. So research was done on the cost. This production line cost about a half million dollars a year to run. it was so efficient that it only required 2 employees to run it, 1 at a time. Those 2 employees cost around 50k each for their manual labor. So how much would it cost to produce it in China? by the thoughtline of Americns 400k assuming Chinese work for free. But it was only going to cost 250k. The reason was that everything is cheaper there, the supplies needed to run it, the employees, the industry. The supply chain is mostly there in China which is a huge advantage, its the same reason so much auto industry was in Michigan, you can just drive 40 minutes to the one company in the world that produces specialty glass for headlights. You want to do that in another country you need to fly somone in, then you need to export the glass etc….

So even if you completely automate processes it doesn't mean anything other than they can literally stick factories anywhere its most efficient, and in many cases that will still be in China. Now days a lot of it is also about taxes, tax breaks are worth more than all the employees.
 
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