Fresh Windows 10 install questions

MrCrispy said:
LOTD will never happen even if they got 100B dollars investment. Linux is fragmented by design and thats the way they want it, they will never agree to standardize any goddamn thing. Just look at what an uproar systemd, one of the best things to happen, caused.
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The MS brainwashing is strong. Fragmentation.... yes it must be a naughty word. That's what my harddrive does all the time right ? lol

Modularity is the purpose of the design. Fragmentation is what happens with MS file systems. Its also why Linux rules super computers servers mobile (the most personal of all computing) medical devices (now that those manufacturers have come to their senses) ect. The advantage of having 2000 different parts is not every computing device needs 2000 parts obviously. Take the ones required for that task and you still have a working system. Standards are in fact the only thing that make any of that work. (seeing as your talking about desktops what does it matter... you can launch the same software running Gnome KDE XFCE LXQT openbox or any other X / wayland standard GUI you like.... want to write a HTML 5 desktop as a computer science degree paper go for it, just make it talk the language of X or Wayland or Mir Standards... which all run the same software)

Its why MS has never really gained any traction outside the desktop, their system is just not easy to break down and redesign for completely different tasks. Windows will never power a super computer... its not an ideal server OS, to run on mobile it has to be completely redesigned and really win mobile on a system level wasn't even windows anymore.

Anyway I'm honestly not trying to get in a posting war on this silly topic yet again. Just understand if your saying fragmentation you got it wrong its modularity. Its a good thing not bad.

Also for the record just so you understand why MS island is ever shrinking. The Linux kernel alone has had well north of 100B spent on its development. Some of that money even spent by you guessed it MS and Apple. lol MS just released a new iot operating system using the Linux Kernel... and Apple have been hiring Linux kernel developers for their own iot projects recently. So ya guess what modularity wins.
 
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heatlesssun said:
If you have needs beyond the basics I'd agree. ChromeOS is all that a lot of people would need but then mostly all you're getting a just a bigger version of a phone or tablet.
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For sure Google even markets ChromeOS as exactly that... easy like your phone.

I think we are at a point where we have to start looking at the mobile space as what it is... personal computing.

My three boys are in their 20s and only one owns a laptop. The other 2 are fine with just a phone. Between their Playstations and phone games they are covered and their wives still bitch at them for spending to much time gaming... one of them insists on torrenting from his phone. My only point is they can't think of any reason to buy or build a desktop anymore. Its not that they moved on from personal computing they just moved on from caring about over priced Intel chips in a desktop format.

I'm never not going to have a desktop either... but I am struck by how fast the desktop went from pretty much a required household item to not required for most people.
 
I agree that for most peoples need a simpler computing experience is enough - which is why tablets became so big, and then ChromeOS. I use both and recommend them to family and friends whose needs they will meet. My dad is now setup with a laptop vs a pc that I had built for him.

Computers will continue to get more accessible. I don't know if we will ever have the scifi future of a global computing cloud and everyone accessing it through omnipresent devices, implants etc. But it might if enough corporations and govts can agree.

Linux is absolutely going to be a part of this future - already it runs most of the Internet (in the servers). You mistake my defense of MS for not caring about Linux or knowing its importance. And I believe I mentioned Azure Sphere already. I am simply trying to say MS has been a very important factor in the evolution of personal computing, you may or may not agree, its fine.
 
MrCrispy said:
I agree that for most peoples need a simpler computing experience is enough - which is why tablets became so big, and then ChromeOS. I use both and recommend them to family and friends whose needs they will meet. My dad is now setup with a laptop vs a pc that I had built for him.

Computers will continue to get more accessible. I don't know if we will ever have the scifi future of a global computing cloud and everyone accessing it through omnipresent devices, implants etc. But it might if enough corporations and govts can agree.

Linux is absolutely going to be a part of this future - already it runs most of the Internet (in the servers). You mistake my defense of MS for not caring about Linux or knowing its importance. And I believe I mentioned Azure Sphere already. I am simply trying to say MS has been a very important factor in the evolution of personal computing, you may or may not agree, its fine.
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Indeed and that is fair. I don't see MS history as a rosy one really... I mean yes they popularised the desktop in a way it hadn't been before can't deny them that. Just as a child who grew up with a commodore and apple machines at school... when I was a teen and my parents did buy a IBM PC running msdos and then windows, my mother was working for the local university teaching programming. I used to dial into her Unix account to browse the web before html. VT-100 terminal emulation go. Hard to believe but the Lynx browser is still in active development. IMO MS set the home computing industry back by pushing us all to their windows way of doing things and away from the solid foundation of the Unix roots that drove the rest of the computing world before MS. I guess its hard to argue that in the early 90s the hardware for consumers was not exactly tailored to a full unix like OS, and MS cut things down. (its not like the basic running 80s consumer machines where unix running either). I liken windows to a console... yes xbox and playstations with PC hardware game fairly well but they set the gaming industry back. Windows has done the same imo, windows being the target of software companies for 30 years hasn't been a great thing.

If MS hadn't had licencing issues and fully developed xenix who knows... the world would be a much different place that's for sure. (and of course that is on AT&T not MS) No doubt Linux wouldn't have been able to grab up all the server space if MS was shipping a unix OS.

Anyway my point, I get what your saying. We disagree on MS place in history that's cool. I grant that in the late 80s and early 90s they popularised home computing. I'm just not convinced that without them it wouldn't have happened anyway. The number of computing companies doing real innovative things during the MS hay day dropped to zero. When they where all gone MS themselves also stopped innovating for the most part at least in terms of OS. Heck MS hasn't even seen fit to really update their 25 year old file system.
 
ir0nw0lf said:
Anyone solely using CCleaner for tweaking things like the registry is not using the program fully. Great for cleaning oddball/misc temp crap.
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Definitely. It's great for purging random temp stuff and managing windows startup functions, and it can even be used to uninstall Windows 10's forced UWP apps.
 
ChadD said:
I think we are at a point where we have to start looking at the mobile space as what it is... personal computing.
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Of course, I've been saying for years that phones are the new PCs. But many folks that don't care for Windows 10 and its "dumbed down" UI will say their PC isn't a phone.
 
heatlesssun said:
Of course, I've been saying for years that phones are the new PCs. But many folks that don't care for Windows 10 and its "dumbed down" UI will say their PC isn't a phone.
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More reasons why Linux is the best option.... remember its not fragmentation, its modularity.

The issue MS has with windows is trying to label everything Windows (insert version letter and numbers). Doing that makes people expect it to be whatever they consider windows to be. I actual get what MS was doing with 8... they simply made the mistake of not adding a secondary DE option. There really wasn't any reason they couldn't have had a "classic" mode DE built in. That choice was just plain dumb... unless it was a technical issue I mean the windows code is pretty unwieldy by all reports.

Linux avoids that problem completely... don't like one DE run a different one. Want build a phone distro... go ahead. Of course Google is the big dog their. Still Ubuntu and KDE have phone DE / Distros. Modularity makes it really easy to build the os out as needed. Now that MS has had all their windows code on on a proper version control setup for a year or so (They moved windows to GIT) instead of adding stupid features no one wants or cares about they should get to work breaking windows down properly so they can easily build out windows for use on other platforms. (I'm half kidding good luck with that... Linux has the advantage in that regard being built from day one with the Unix modularity model)
 
ChadD said:
Doing that makes people expect it to be whatever they consider windows to be. I actual get what MS was doing with 8... they simply made the mistake of not adding a secondary DE option. There really wasn't any reason they couldn't have had a "classic" mode DE built in. That choice was just plain dumb... unless it was a technical issue I mean the windows code is pretty unwieldy by all reports.
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So tell me, how do 2 in 1 Chromebooks handle their support of keyboard, mouse, touch and pen?
 
ChadD said:
??? WTH are you on about.
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There are an increasing number of 2 in 1 Chromebook designs, the Google Pixel is one. All of those devices have one DE or UI shell. They don't convert between some desktop shell and then some totally different tablet/touch shell.
 
Yes, even the abandoned Ubuntu and Firefox mobile variants don't convert between totally different DEs in touch/normal modes.

As for modularity, Linux isnt any more modular. It juts appears so because its open source and there are a million DEs, window managers, login managers etc etc and every distro is free to mix/match as they please. If you look at NT's design it is just as modular if not more so. The windowing manager (User), file system and many others are all subsystems that can be interchanged. This is how MS was able to add ReFS and support for multiple architectures as well as WinRT e.g. The Windows kernel is better designed, it has stable interfaces and drivers that are certified in WHQL. You can run a minimal Windows server install without any GUI, just like Linux, and it has all Windows features.

Linux folk love to complain about systemd saying it does too much and violates the Unix philosophy. Well that exactly what the Linux kernel is - a monolithic beast with all drivers compiled in. Linux still uses protocols from xorg which are >2 decades old for the display server, stuff which was designed for teletypes. Wayland is never going to be mainstream, we've been hearing that for a decade now. Audio on Linux was a nightmare before Lennart implemented pulseaudio. For which he got a lot of hate, because the one thing Linux folk hate is a single system standard - same reaction for systemd.

If Linux people actually bothered to learn what Windows is instead of just blindly claiming its inferior to Linux in every way, they'd see a lot of its design is just as good.
 
A reasonable amount of FUD in this very thread, as always.

There is no way anyone can argue that Linux is not more modular by design in comparison to Windows and to turn the argument on it's head, the lack of apparent fragmentation under Windows has very little to do with the popularity of Windows. Fragmentation is a term invented by generation Y and regurgitated all over the Internet, just like the apparent fabled 'year of the Linux desktop'.

I don't see a single user here, Linux users included, that haven't bothered to learn what Windows is.
 
Mazzspeed said:
A reasonable amount of FUD in this very thread, as always.

There is no way anyone can argue that Linux is not more modular by design in comparison to Windows and to turn the argument on it's head, the lack of apparent fragmentation under Windows has very little to do with the popularity of Windows. Fragmentation is a term invented by generation Y and regurgitated all over the Internet, just like the apparent fabled 'year of the Linux desktop'.

I don't see a single user here, Linux users included, that haven't bothered to learn what Windows is.
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I already know what Windows is, it is a kick ass desktop, laptop, 2 in 1 and tablet operating system. :)

Edit: Oh, and that is just the client side. :)
 
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Mazzspeed said:
And I think the same about Linux and Android.
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Linux on 2 in 1s? Maybe with ChromeOS but then that's really more Android than Linux. I guess the direction for ChromeOS these days is some kind of Linux desktop/Android tablet hybrid approach.
 
heatlesssun said:
Linux on 2 in 1s? Maybe with ChromeOS but then that's really more Android than Linux. I guess the direction for ChromeOS these days is some kind of Linux desktop/Android tablet hybrid approach.
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I don't like 2 in 1's.

I want a desktop device with a desktop OS and I want a mobile device with a mobile OS.
 
Mazzspeed said:
I don't like 2 in 1's.

I want a desktop device with a desktop OS and I want a mobile device with a mobile OS.
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There's only two areas in PCs that are seeing any kind of growth, gaming machines and 2 in 1s. 2 in 1s are an important form factor especially in the prosumer and education markets where the added flexibility does add value. Google has certainly gotten into the market, its top end Pixel Chromebook is a 2 in 1 with pen support along with an increasing number of OEMs that are repurposing Windows designs.
 
heatlesssun said:
There's only two areas in PCs that are seeing any kind of growth, gaming machines and 2 in 1s. 2 in 1s are an important form factor especially in the prosumer and education markets where the added flexibility does add value. Google has certainly gotten into the market, its top end Pixel Chromebook is a 2 in 1 with pen support along with an increasing number of OEMs that are repurposing Windows designs.
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They're replacing laptops. It's not growth when the retailer offers a 2in1 over a conventional laptop and half the people have no intention of using the touch screen.

Does every thread have to evolve into an argument over your point of view?
 
2 in 1's aren't going anywhere because its a big shiny feature to put on the box that people have come to accept. PC sales are hurting as it is and everyone is adding touch, even though most people never use the touchscreen. A lot of these are targeted at millenials and college kids who value style and flash over substance, they don't care about productivity, value for money or performance.

I don't much like 2in1 but I want to buy a Surface Pro when it becomes affordable :)

The sad fact of the matter is when Apple adds touch to the Macbook, which they inevitably will along with merging iOS and OSX (and just wait and see, when that happens all the tech blogs and posters who criticize MS for having a single unified OS, will hail Apple's move as the greatest innovation ever), its all going to be over as everyone else hurries to copy them. Just see whats happening with Android oem's copying the bloody stupid notch from iPhoneX, because people are sheep and easily brainwashed and will only buy Apple.
 
MrCrispy said:
The sad fact of the matter is when Apple adds touch to the Macbook, which they inevitably will along with merging iOS and OSX (and just wait and see, when that happens all the tech blogs and posters who criticize MS for having a single unified OS, will hail Apple's move as the greatest innovation ever), its all going to be over as everyone else hurries to copy them. Just see whats happening with Android oem's copying the bloody stupid notch from iPhoneX, because people are sheep and easily brainwashed and will only buy Apple.
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Last I heard Tim Cook was quoted as claiming that Apple's macOS and iOS lines were being kept very much separate. I doubt Apple will add touch to their desktop products when their iPad line is so successful.

I used an iPhone X with the notch the other day, I find the notch really intrusive and annoying! ;)
 
Apple has a long history of going from 'we will never do this! because its not good for users!' to 'we invented this and have the best implementation ever!'. The list goes on - copy and paste, large screens, notifications, multitasking etc etc.

Trust me, they are going to merge. The Touchbar, the worst idea in the history of computing - lets replace decades old Fn keys used by everyone with a gimmick - is just the start.
 
MrCrispy said:
I am sick of all the MS hatred and FUD on the internet. Windows 10 is easily their best OS. I was a big critic of 8/8.1 due to the Start menu disaster and focus on tablet users. All that is fixed in 10, it is lighter and faster. So yes there is extra telemetry and some privacy concerns, but less than Google/Apple/Facebook, and those companies get a pass because they aren't MS.

Anyone daring to say anything nice about Windows 10 is immediately labelled an apologist.
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Yeah I agree. You can turn off the snooping and at least for me Windows 10 has been faster and more stable than Windows 8 was.
 
heatlesssun said:
This is often said by anti-Windows 10 folks but is there really any proof of this? For instance I'd love if game review sites benched games across Windows 7, 8.1 and 10. For Win32 DX 11 and lower games I doubt much would be different across those versions.
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A bit off topic but I just installed windows 8.1 pro. It's 9 GB.
Windows 10 home is 24 GB.

I think this is relevant because even though you can cut them down in size and that *might* make them closer in size, I'd imagine that there is wasted space and if you create periodic disk images, it takes its toll, especially if you are backing things up onto smallish sized media.

Also, not sure how fair of a comparison this is but Windows 10 desktop with 4th generation i3 and 4gb ram gets smoked by a $50 android phone in web browsing with the former browser crashing a fair bit @ 10 chrome windows, whereas the latter sails along with 15 browser windows opened.
 
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floatingkeyboards said:
A bit off topic but I just installed windows 8.1 pro. It's 9 GB.
Windows 10 home is 24 GB.

I think this is relevant because even though you can cut them down in size and that *might* make them closer in size, I'd imagine that there is wasted space and if you create periodic disk images, it takes its toll, especially if you are backing things up onto smallish sized media.

Also, not sure how fair of a comparison this is but Windows 10 desktop with 4th generation i3 and 4gb ram gets smoked by a $50 android phone in web browsing with the former browser crashing a fair bit @ 10 chrome windows, whereas the latter sails along with 15 browser windows opened.
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do a disk clean up and youll get a bunch back. all the installs ive done recently are ending up around 16gb.
 
johnnysd said:
Yeah I agree. You can turn off the snooping and at least for me Windows 10 has been faster and more stable than Windows 8 was.
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No you can't actually. There's no official spying off switch, and all the third party hacks are a best guess at stopping it, since only MS knows what backchannels it uses to evade the blocks the way they did for windows update when people blocked it. Another problem is the big featureless seasonal updates undo all the telemetry blocking hacks.

As for Windows 8.1, it's rock solid.
 
pendragon1 said:
do a disk clean up and youll get a bunch back. all the installs ive done recently are ending up around 16gb.
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When you remove unwanted programs from uninstalling from the list of apps, it seems to be at around 26 GB. I suppose you are using powershell to uninstall a bunch of stuff.
 
floatingkeyboards said:
When you remove unwanted programs from uninstalling from the list of apps, it seems to be at around 26 GB. I suppose you are using powershell to uninstall a bunch of stuff.
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no, an actual disk clean up. it will remove leftover install files and drivers and shit. start disk cleanup and select clean up system files then tick every box.

edited speeling
 
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pendragon1 said:
no, an actual disk clean up. it will remove leftover install files and drivers and shit. start disk cleanup and select clean up system files then tick every box.

edited speeling
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Ok. I think I will try that once I have installed a few of my core programs (at which point I plan to create a disk image). Thanks for the tip.
 
Try installing a windows update on a cheap garbage laptop with a 32GB eMMC HDD alongside a typical Windows 10/MS Office install with nothing else on the HDD - It's impossible! The worst thing is, you remove the update to make room to actually use the thing and Windows 10 in it's infinite wisdom just downloads the update again resulting in a loop of frustration!
 
Mazzspeed said:
Try installing a windows update on a cheap garbage laptop with a 32GB eMMC HDD alongside a typical Windows 10/MS Office install with nothing else on the HDD - It's impossible! The worst thing is, you remove the update to make room to actually use the thing and Windows 10 in it's infinite wisdom just downloads the update again resulting in a loop of frustration!
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Had to deal with this issue recently on a laptop for my brother-in-law, a 32 GB eMMC Atom Lenovo laptop and Office 2016 installed. Indeed devices with 32 GB of storage can fill up and prevent updates from installing. The trick there, as long as there isn't too much user data on the device, is to run Windows Update from a flash with 10 GB or more of free storage. Did that with this device updating to 1803 and it worked perfectly though is was very slow, took about 3 hours, including freeing up space after the update. When down though the 32 eMMC was close to half free, my brother-in-law only had about 200 MB of Word or other docs he uses on it.

For his needs the device for what it cost, he told me he paid about $180 bucks for it, does a good job, he actually needs Word for stuff related to his ministry which is why he got a Windows machine. It actually runs Word and web browses fine but the drive space is certainly an issue when it comes up updating and while easy enough to deal with the step of using a flash drive, that's not something average people would know about.
 
More proof that MS needs to fix their update system. The most broken thing about windows, it makes their OS completely unusable. People are starting to know better, MS really needs to make that their priority. Especially if they are planning to start pushing ARM based windows to compete with chromeos.
 
ChadD said:
More proof that MS needs to fix their update system. The most broken thing about windows, it makes their OS completely unusable. People are starting to know better, MS really needs to make that their priority. Especially if they are planning to start pushing ARM based windows to compete with chromeos.
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You can always look at the cheapest and slowest Windows devices and find problems. When has a $200 Windows laptop ever been great? 32 GB eMMC, hell that's less than a good phone these days. Go to a 128GB of SSD/NVMe and there's no problems like these and tons faster.

Not saying there's no problem with the Windows 10 update process but I could just as easily look at Windows gaming on a $200 laptop and conclude Windows gaming is completely unusable.
 
heatlesssun said:
Not saying there's no problem with the Windows 10 update process but I could just as easily look at Windows gaming on a $200 laptop and conclude Windows gaming is completely unusable.
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Gaming isn't the issue. No one buys a $200 anything expecting to game. If windows is to survive they need to fix their update system. Full stop. They are about to flood the market with ARM windows if people can't even manage to get updates without wanting to football spike their devices the future is not going to be very windowsy. I'm cool with that... but it seems to me all MS really has to do is fix the biggest PITA issue windows has dealt with for 20+ years.
 
ChadD said:
Gaming isn't the issue. No one buys a $200 anything expecting to game. If windows is to survive they need to fix their update system. Full stop. They are about to flood the market with ARM windows if people can't even manage to get updates without wanting to football spike their devices the future is not going to be very windowsy. I'm cool with that... but it seems to me all MS really has to do is fix the biggest PITA issue windows has dealt with for 20+ years.
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MS seems to know that and it tries to kill (yet again) the competition. It has bought influence in the open software consortium and now the purchase of GitHub... Extend, Embrace, Extinguish.
 
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ChadD said:
Gaming isn't the issue. No one buys a $200 anything expecting to game. If windows is to survive they need to fix their update system. Full stop. They are about to flood the market with ARM windows if people can't even manage to get updates without wanting to football spike their devices the future is not going to be very windowsy. I'm cool with that... but it seems to me all MS really has to do is fix the biggest PITA issue windows has dealt with for 20+ years.
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The main reason why we have these discussions is that we're talking about a lot of different kinds of hardware and software. The cheapest Windows device I currently have that gets much use is a $90 Bay Trail Atom 2 GB RAM/32 GB eMMC storage Nuvision tablet. Comparing the update process of that, or much else really, to even something like my wife's 2016 HP Envy x2 Core m5 4 GB RM/128 SSD device is nonsensical. I'm not saying that there's no room for improvement in the Windows 10 update process but the notion that 700 million Windows 10 users ALL CAN'T use their systems effectively because of the update process again is nonsensical. But no doubt those Windows 10 folks running bare minimum hardware are seeing problems here. These ARM devices coming out, they aren't of the cheapo variety like these Atom Bay Trail devices and they're going with UFS storage over eMMC, BIG IMPROVEMENT.
 
pendragon1 said:
no, an actual disk clean up. it will remove leftover install files and drivers and shit. start disk cleanup and select clean up system files then tick every box.

edited speeling
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Hmm.. that only freed up about 9 MB.
Any guesses as to why you had a different experience?
 
floatingkeyboards said:
Hmm.. that only freed up about 9 MB.
Any guesses as to why you had a different experience?
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Windows will automatically delete update files after 30 days I believe. If you're on 1803 try Settings->Storage->Free up space now. Is essentially a modern UI for the disk cleanup tool but lists everything in one place.
 
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