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No, they don't, but that's how they're trained. "Shoot first, worry about what you hit and why later. Most likely it was a threat to you." So, essentially anyone that commits a crime or is suspected of having committed a crime can potentially be shot at any time for any reason. It's insane.
kirbyrj
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Have you been to police training? Explain to us how police are trained to shoot first at "essentially anyone that commits a crime or is suspected of having committed a crime." Otherwise you're talking out of your ass.
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Most cultures in history have had a Rite of Passage type of thing.. where a boy became a Man.. girl became a Woman.. etc
in modern western culture that happens when they simply turn 18.. or such
Most make it just fine, some dont. And with the instant world wide news of the internet, we are bombarded daily with all the failures.
IcePickFreak
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Spoken like someone that's never worked around heavy machinery. LEOs are nowhere near being an exception in life-or-death split second decision making.
kirbyrj
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I never said that they are the only group, but you don't hear 10 posts bashing equipment operators as being "poorly trained" and a "low bar for entry," etc. every time there is an accident.
Get off your high horse. 25 years ago cops were not shooting/killing people because they 'felt threatened'.
I feel my life in danger whenever I see a police officer, but I don't have the right to shoot police officers.
IcePickFreak
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Oh believe me those exact things are said all the time even on near misses, and they're generally true. I mean there's always going to be accidents, but some people just seem to be more prone or less attention span or something than others. Difference is those people generally get booted early on and go work retail or something.
LEOs just tend to want to think they're a special case, and they're not.
Patton187
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This is a terrible idea. We dont need gulags for morons.
sfsuphysics
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I feel so old because I hear shit like "Swatting" and I think to myself what in the fuck is wrong with "kids" these days. I mean shit I remember the worst pissed I got in playing a video game involved me throwing a controller into the floor and that's about it.
kirbyrj
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Sure they were. You just didn't hear about it. If you really believe your life is in danger, then you should start playing the lottery. You have a better chance of winning that then getting shot by police. In all seriousness, tens of thousands of police interactions each day yield zero public deaths. You're arguing that the 0.001% is normal which is stupid.
My high horse? Half the people in this thread are arguing the police are the problem, not the kids who orchestrated them being there. If you or a family member were the victim of a serious crime, it sounds like you'd rather the police just say, "Oh well, it's not worth the risk of shooting someone to save someone else, so we're just going to ignore the problem and hope it resolves itself." Or if you're being held hostage, "Hey, lets knock on the door and see if it's just a fake call even though the victim might be in imminent danger."
Not so much. 25 years ago, cops still largely used 6 shooters, and we specifically taught to not discharge more then one or two shots at a time, due to the time it takes to reload a firearm. Now, they're instead taught to "neutralize the threat", since reload speed and ammo capacity aren't significant concerns. And given that law is written in such a way as the shield cops from any liability so long as they "felt threatened", it's no wonder this is happening.
And yes, it's happening much more now, but is more apparent since everyone has a phone.
D
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In the USA, apparently, police can decide to take your life for a whole number of reasons and they are never liable.
So yeah, it is a lot easier to blame the death on an innocent by police to whoever made the prank than the useless officers who took somebodies life without a reason for it.
Innocent unless proven guilty my ass.
How many officers get away with killing somebody because "It looked like he had a gun"?
What if police go to your house because somebody fucked up and instead of assuming that people inside are innocent unless proven otherwise they go in full tac-gear as if they were on a war?
SWATing incidents wouldn't happen to the extend they do if police weren't so trigger happy. How hard can it be to CHECK and INSPECT before going head first? Fucks sake, in the event of an emergency you first check that there is a real emergency then act. You don't simply run like a mad men assuming the worst possible sceneario because somebody called in panic mode. No. You check first, reassure of what is going on then prepare for said task or operation.
Heck, how much money does the USA pay because of liability concerns regarding police? Hundreds of million per year because of wrongful interactions? More?
allright. I have a few questions... did the police do a backgroundcheck on the suspect? I believe it is incredibly easy to punch in the number on a comp to get all priors. In my country we still knock on the door and say "this is the police, Come out with your hands up and visible"...see ...not hard at all.99.999% come out peacefully. Now, this might be a guess, but have you as a people of the land of the free and brave actually looked at your society and wondered...hmmm what's going on instead of demanding blood be spilled? JustMy1Cents(EUR)
edit: edit before all this bullshit about northern european socialism bullshit. Our policeforce is as tough as any countrys. But we don't go in guns blazing. I'm saying that the swat team on route could have all info available before sending in rambo. Agreed I don't know shit about the situation but unarmed civilian against well armed swat team? Fuck is wrong with you? swat teams have bulletproof shields and body armor ffs... "GOGOGO he has something of nothing in his hands! DROP THE NOTHING OR YOU WILL GET SHOT!!"
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absolutely agree with you there. Euro police has been rightfully more vigilante against armed suspects and that is because of terrorist. FFS the bobbies In the UK don't even have firearms. I come from finnish decent and Finland has a policeforce that interacts with the locals..they don't go full on assault whenever someone calls omGHz he got AK. That would be stupid and the most they would rally up a few patrols and surround the building. They would never breach a compound with out probable cause. I fucking love Swedish, Norweigan, Danish and Finnish police...professionalism at its height.
kirbyrj
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Then GTFO and go to Scandinavia.
or any nordic country for that matter. But beware you will be taxed out of your ass
edit...and 1 night at the hospital is $10 including whatever treatment is available meds everything.
eh I shouldn't be saying this because the proud Islandic viking population....but I think they desperately need an injection of sorts to their genepool
Wait, was that testing bad because testing is bad, or was it bad because of the situation that existed at the time and how it was used?
Seems like a lot of people seem to have hangups about police officers, and law enforcement generally. Are there bad cops? Yes. Abusive cops? Yes. Trigger happy cops? Probably.
However, all that stuff combined is the slimmest minority. I'm not excusing bad behavior, but...a good shoot is a good shoot and a bad shoot is a bad shoot. As far as I know, EVERY agency has an investigation after any shooting. That seems prusent to me. If it's really bad, people get fired and charges are brought, which also seems correct to me.
Like I said, there are bad guys. Some bad guys are cops. On the whole, though, not the case.
However, all that stuff combined is the slimmest minority. I'm not excusing bad behavior, but...a good shoot is a good shoot and a bad shoot is a bad shoot. As far as I know, EVERY agency has an investigation after any shooting. That seems prusent to me. If it's really bad, people get fired and charges are brought, which also seems correct to me.
Like I said, there are bad guys. Some bad guys are cops. On the whole, though, not the case.
Yes, because the cop was put into a terrible situation, called to the location of an emergency where life and death is at hand, faced with an individual who is potentially a threat who fails to follow the officer's commands.
Shit happens.
Someone caused it, and someone is being punished for it.
No, it wasn't like that at all. The cops went to the guy's house, the guy came to the door before the cops did. There were cops in a couple of different locations, a couple across the street and at least one off to the side of the front lawn. The cops told the man to keep his hands up where they could see them but at one point, the man quickly moved his hands to his waste/belt, then right back up and it actually did look like he might have pulled a gun, one of the cops shot one round killing the guy.
Oh, and they were just the regular patrol cops, they weren't even the SWAT team.
yeah there will always be rotten eggs. I saw this statistic and was kind of surprised...Finland being the smallest country ever to whoop Soviet ass has 7300 police officers and is listed at 124th in the world by 100.000ppl.
USA and again a surprise is at 88th place with 284 per 100,000 ppl. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_police_officers I'mnot saying that stats tell the whole picture...but...
USA and again a surprise is at 88th place with 284 per 100,000 ppl. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_number_of_police_officers I'mnot saying that stats tell the whole picture...but...
Darunion
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Seriously though, what happened to just ordering pizzas under someone elses name?
well then I see now how the guy would respond in a reasonable matter, shocked, prolly watching WWF and thinking "what the fuck" mmm seems reasonable that an unarmed civilian should be killed.
lcpiper, I was once a suspect of aggrevated assault and rape charges in Finland. I was walking down to the beach when suddenly a police patrol apprehended me. No fucking guns, no batons,,they just threw them selves on me. 2 seconds. No kills, no one mamed. I spent 3 hours in jail until freed because mistaken ID. All well and good. WE DON'T KILL PEOPLE ON SUSPICION ONLY ffs
Darunion
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True. But I also usually don't go to my door ready to take orders from cops pointing guns at me. Maybe we was checking to see if his dick was still hanging out from whatever he was doing earlier? Or even maybe he had his handgun not much earlier and wanted to be sure it wasnt on him. It is what I do when I go into a school or gov building just as one final check to make sure it isn't on me before entering.
Heck when I get home most days I open up a nice brew so my reflexes might not be up to par.
I dunno, I feel like I would have a very difficult fight ahead of me if I utilized my concealed handgun on someone reaching for their belt and they had no firearm on them.
D
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What situation was the cop into? Can't the cop assess for himself? Shouldn't he assess for himself? Do you have brain-dead officers or people who think? Potentially, the threat is real but also potentially, the threat isn't. You should approach it with caution but not with the intend to kill anything that moves, which is the way cops in USA approach situations. And apparently it works because a "I believe he had a gun" is useful in court. No guns were found? "But sir, I honestly thought he had one". And BAM, case closed. The simple officer was afraid and shot as a reaction.
How about the one that took the shot takes responsability for the lived that took mistakingly? How about that?
And the onus of the situation can't ever be placed on the one that made the call. Come on now. Even you won't believe that whoever called is responsible for whatever happened. Somebody dieing on a swatting incident is solely on whoever pulled the trigger. Whoever made the prank called should be fined and should pay for whatever tax money was used on the operation. But blaming him for a bad call on the officer's part? Are you crazy?
No, it was even worse. You have an innocent guy (remember? Innocent until proven guilty) outside his home. You have NOTHING against him, but a simple call that anybody could have done. You are half a dozen strong, with a full power light blinding him. For starters even if he had a gun the chances of getting it to shoot on target are simply non. So, the threat to the officers was an absolute 0.
Yet.. he died. And you want to blame said death to whoever made the call?
Really?
GoldenTiger
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Yes of course. No swatting, no cops. The police did what they could but accidents happen, albeit very rarely
OutOfPhase
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That's really it. There are of course several problems, and it is not a good idea to conflate them all.
1. Dipshits attempting to weaponize our public defenders into doing something they want, specifically some harm to a third party.
2. Cops deal with horrible shit all day, and just want to go home at the end of the night to their kids like we all do.
3. There are actually some shitty cops.
4. We don't hear of the cases where cops show up, suss out what is really going on, and return to the base because it was a hoax.
We assume everything is #3, when it is of course statistically absurdly rare.
kirbyrj
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What happened to you is almost certainly what would have happened here. There are thousands of people arrested on a daily basis that most never bat an eye at. The problem is that some hear the sensationalized stories of the one guy who gets killed under suspicious circumstances and associate that with every arrest that an American cop makes or attempts to make. I'm not reacting to the fact that there are occasionally bad cops who do bad things. I'm reacting to the idea that American cops have a mentality of shoot first ask questions later. This just isn't the case.
Nobu
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And, in fact, over the years the number of unintentional deaths by firearms has gone down (dunno if that link will work, but if not, group by year and/or state, modify injury intent and mechanism, then click send), at least according to data gathered by the cdc. Interestingly, the number of deaths classified as "legal intervention" have increased by about the same amount as "unintentional" has decreased, so if you combine the two sets of data they stay at about the same number over the years.
Not sure if any are put in multiple categories in certain circumstances or if they're all only placed in one category, but regardless, you should be more worried about what's happening in your own back yard than what's going on across the continent. If your police are doing good, be glad. If not, then do something to fix that. Shouting about it here won't help, because people don't listen to other people on the net. They're just weird like that, I guess.
BoogerBomb
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What I hate is that when citizens fuck up and accidentally kill someone we get prison for years. If a cop does it its just considered collateral damage. A cop has to practically execute someone on camera to be held accountable. What makes them better than the citizens that they are supposed to protect?
Krenum
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Honestly, they put on the badge and choose to put their lives on the line to protect. Its a shame that there are so many bad apples out there that tend to spoil the bunch.
Anyway, I hope these guys get the book thrown at them & the cops who were involved, I hope they are taken out of law enforcement.
d8lock
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Yeah right. A good majority of cops around here were picked on as kids and grew up with a chip on their shoulder. Welders put their "lives on the line" too. Where is their license to kill?
Krenum
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Everyone was picked on as a kid, nobody is special in that regard. Difference between a welder and a police officer is the welder isn't obligated to save or protect someone from harm or sacrifice their life for someone else. Last I check a welder wasn't the citizens first line of defense in a national emergency.
If people don't like law enforcement. Move to a third world country or simply don't use it whenever you need it.
Darunion
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I think that is part of a problem too. People can't just want for improvement, it always comes down to "you do it then" or "get out if you don't like it". Remember when we used to just strive for improvement?
EDIT: I know police have a tough and dangerous job, but I do think something needs to change to improve the overall twitchy finger-ness(?) of many of them as of late.
I do think also that people need to stop spitting in their faces all the time as well. Both police and the rest need to remember that both are citizens and have families.