Win10 April Update is Smashing...I Meant Crashing...Sorry

I got excited there for a moment, as I am still using an Intel PCIe SSD 750, but I guess it is only Optane.

I did toy with the idea of picking up an Optane 900 drive recently though, but I have no idea if my x79 system would be able to boot off of it. It's a miracle it is even able to boot off of my 750...
 
there must be a lot of annoyances. Last time I updated win 10, my whole start menu pinned apps got wiped out and filled with dumb shit like candy crush and xbox

I need to know what I need to back up before doing these updates.
 
Kdawg said:
This Windows "mandatory" update, or else no security updates, is bullshit. Fuckyou microsoft

In the past, they would maintain security updates even for old builds. Now EOL is only 1 year, and you have to suffer through super slow massive update that gets stuck on 99%, potentially bricking your pc.
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Running Linux is great :)

All I use my Windows install for is games.

If A Windows update bricks something, it's fine. I just won't play any games until I figure it out and fix it. Everything else continues to work just fine :)
 
Kdawg said:
there must be a lot of annoyances. Last time I updated win 10, my whole start menu got wiped out.

I need to know what I need to back up before doing these updates.
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I usually just use a live CD to image the entire disk to my NAS using Gparted before doing any major updates.
 
odditory said:
"LOL those dumb users man,
they're such idiots! Why are they updating it wrong? I didn't personally have any issue, so why would anyone else?"
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It is STAGGERING how many tech people think this way. The problems don't exist unless they affect you personally!
 
tetris42 said:
It is STAGGERING how many tech people think this way. The problems don't exist unless they affect you personally!
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I know personally, the idea is cemented when years go by without experiencing all these "issues" the people seem to have. You begin to think that maybe there is something you're doing right with the maintenance of your system and/or what software/drivers you use. It's hard to be so critical of something that continues to never give you issues and just wonder what others are doing that keep giving them problems.
 
criccio said:
I know personally, the idea is cemented when years go by without experiencing all these "issues" the people seem to have. You begin to think that maybe there is something you're doing right with the maintenance of your system and/or what software/drivers you use. It's hard to be so critical of something that continues to never give you issues and just wonder what others are doing that keep giving them problems.
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It's literally impossible to deploy something as complex as Windows 10 and updates to hundreds of millions of devices as varied as x86 PCs and not have some rate of failure. It can't be done with macOS or Linux either without some rate of failure. But if something is running on hundreds of millions of devices then obviously the process tends to work. Of course when you see an issue like this, you kind of wonder want went wrong when a very specific piece of hardware which I would assume is popular is having this problem.

But sometimes the update gods are kind. 1803 went fine for me, the patch from yesterday and hell, even that issue I was having with the app Netflix at 4k seems to have been resolved with the latest GeForce drivers. The thing about something like Windows 10, it supports and runs on god knows what, not even the people in this kind of forum touch 100th of it all, that it works at all is kind of amazing.
 
heatlesssun said:
It's literally impossible to deploy something as complex as Windows 10 and updates to hundreds of millions of devices as varied as x86 PCs and not have some rate of failure. It can't be done with macOS or Linux either without some rate of failure. But if something is running on hundreds of millions of devices then obviously the process tends to work. Of course when you see an issue like this, you kind of wonder want went wrong when a very specific piece of hardware which I would assume is popular is having this problem.

But sometimes the update gods are kind. 1803 went fine for me, the patch from yesterday and hell, even that issue I was having with the app Netflix at 4k seems to have been resolved with the latest GeForce drivers. The thing about something like Windows 10, it supports and runs on god knows what, not even the people in this kind of forum touch 100th of it all, that it works at all is kind of amazing.
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Windows 10 supports and runs on god knows exactly the same shit that Windows 7 and 8.1 run on, actually. There's nothing "complex" and magical about 10 since its just 8.2 under the hood, and really doesn't do anything demonstrably better than its predecessors.

And Windows 7 and 8.1 didn't have anywhere near the level of untested updates for the sake of updates as Windows 10. In the Windows 7 days, service packs were tested by a real QA division and built by real engineers, not a selfie-obsessed millennial and foreign subcontractors with no pride. Updates were delta updates, not a re-install pretending to be an update that wipes your settings, customizations and third party tools back to defaults. By and large updates just worked. In the Windows 10 era its just dread, you have to be on guard for updates, since Microsoft insists on forcing security updates into the same package with Bubble Witch, Candy Crush and multiple gigs of other crapware.
 
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DPI said:
Windows 10 supports and runs on god knows exactly the same shit that Windows 7 and 8.1 run on, actually.
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Not exactly. I've got enough newer hardware that never ran Windows 7 or 8.1 and that I've not seen much on how such hardware would perform. I wouldn't try to run a 4k or high DPI under 7 and even 8.1 doesn't have the level of support of 10.

DPI said:
There's nothing "complex" and magical about 10 since its just 8.2 under the hood, and really doesn't do anything demonstrably better than its predecessors.
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Not saying that there is. But yeah, the hardware mix is just different because of time.

​
DPI said:
And Windows 7 and 8.1 didn't have anywhere near the level of untested updates for the sake of updates as Windows 10.
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So every update for Windows 7 and 8.1 got tested against EVERY possible piece of hardware and PC configuration?
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DPI said:
In the Windows 7 days, service packs were tested by a real QA division and built by real engineers, not a selfie-obsessed millennial and foreign subcontractors with no pride. Updates were delta updates, not a re-install pretending to be an update that wipes your settings, customizations and third party tools back to defaults. By and large updates just worked. In the Windows 10 era its just dread, you have to be on guard for updates, since Microsoft insists on forcing security updates into the same package with Bubble Witch, Candy Crush and multiple gigs of other crapware.
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It doesn't matter how something like Windows is tested, there's ALWAYS going to gaps and failures. With specific data on failures and rates there's no way to argue this subject.
 
criccio said:
I know personally, the idea is cemented when years go by without experiencing all these "issues" the people seem to have. You begin to think that maybe there is something you're doing right with the maintenance of your system and/or what software/drivers you use. It's hard to be so critical of something that continues to never give you issues and just wonder what others are doing that keep giving them problems.
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Yup. I've been building and have had multiple systems on hand for almost 30 years. In that time I've gone through upgrades countless times, and have never had a system breaking problem.

Back in the day, windows upgrades used to be suboptimal, as the clean installs were so much better, but the upgrades always worked.

So, in most cases I am tempted to wonder what others are doing wrong when something like this comes along.

In this particular case, Microsoft has confirmed the issue though, so the answer is, nothing. Or, maybe you could say the mistake they made was to buy the wrong SSD :p
 
DPI said:
And Windows 7 and 8.1 didn't have anywhere near the level of untested updates for the sake of updates as Windows 10.
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With previous windows updates we just didn't get as many major updates. The Windows 10 model essentially gives is a service pack once every 6 months to a year. I'm not convinced testing is any worse now than it used to be, butt issues may be more frequent simply because these major updates are being applied more often.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
With previous windows updates we just didn't get as many major updates. The Windows 10 model essentially gives is a service pack once every 6 months to a year. I'm not convinced testing is any worse now than it used to be, butt issues may be more frequent simply because these major updates are being applied more often.
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Smaller, more incremental updates at a predictable rate. Virtually ALL modern software is developed this way versus longer development time, big bang waterfall releases. A lot of what people don't like about this process has nothing to do with Windows 10 per se, it's just the consensus of how software should be developed and delivered today. A three development cycle in this day age is WAY to long now.
 
heatlesssun said:
Smaller, more incremental updates at a predictable rate. Virtually ALL modern software is developed this way versus longer development time, big bang waterfall releases. A lot of what people don't like about this process has nothing to do with Windows 10 per se, it's just the consensus of how software should be developed and delivered today. A three development cycle in this day age is WAY to long now.
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Yup, and as a hardware development engineer who needs to work with firmware/software people I can authoritaritarily say that Agile software methodologies are one of the worst things to ever happen to software development.

Smug software development gurus all pat themselves on their backs over how efficient they are being with Agile, when all it results in is shoddy products that are beta tested on customers.

Agile ought to be banned outright.
 
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Zarathustra[H] said:
Agile ought to be banned outright.
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I've seen a lot of software development processes debated over the years and come and go. Some form iterative development and continuous delivery won the debate, hands down. Doesn't mean everyone likes it but the consensus is overwhelming.
 
People at my work are freaking out about RDP being broken on Server 2012 with these new round of updates. Happy not to be a windoze server admin any more

edit - work emails blowing up my phone. They found a workaround via GPO
 
BSmith said:
Build 17661 has padded my wallet nicely due to odd things.

1) Have had multiple complaints about DX9 games just refusing to run (crashes to desktop). This one might be due to an NVidia driver as a new driver also got installed with the update. Not 100% on that one.

2) Also had complaints about any audio capture software trying to capture audio is crashing. This one I isolated to a new USBAUDIO driver installed with the build, but another USBAUDIO driver was left to run as well. Crashing the applications in the driver during an alloc of 4K of memory. Presumably a capture buffer.

Rolling back got everyone back online and running.

Have not run into any SSD failures, yet.
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So, you are installing Insider Builds on peoples machines?
 
Burticus said:
People at my work are freaking out about RDP being broken on Server 2012 with these new round of updates. Happy not to be a windoze server admin any more

edit - work emails blowing up my phone. They found a workaround via GPO
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I'm getting the CredSSP error on some RDP sessions now connecting 1803 to 2012R2 stations. Going to look at it more tomorrow, but not sure if it's the same thing you guys are seeing.
 
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ManofGod said:
So, you are installing Insider Builds on peoples machines?
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Like I said before, no, I am not doing it. The customer(s) have been doing it on their own. I tell them not to and if they do then it will cost them to repair the potential damage.
 
serpretetsky said:
I'll come back and give that a try later.
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One thing I forgot, that may be an issue, was there was a copy of Office 2013 on the machine that wanted to be registered, aka if you start it it was asking to be keyed. I uninstalled that to.

Not sure if that will help, But it was the only other major thing I uninstalled from it.
 
heatlesssun said:
So every update for Windows 7 and 8.1 got tested against EVERY possible piece of hardware and PC configuration?
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THIS!!!

With just how many hardware configurations that exist in the market this is quite literally impossible to do. If Microsoft were to do this they would have to have four to five city blocks filled with warehouses with multiple floors and an army of thousands people to test each update on. Why? Think about it. They would have to have each and every single hardware configuration that's imaginable.

Let's take one possible configuration here... take a system with a Gigabyte Z370 AORUS Ultra Gaming motherboard. Take the system and pair it with a Core i3, a Core i5, and a Core i7. Oh, but we're not done yet. Were they overclocked or were they running at stock configurations? We need identical systems with a Samsung SSD, a Toshiba SSD, a Sandisk SSD, a Plextor SSD, a Crucial SSD, and an Intel SSD, etc. Done yet? Nope. We need SATA and NVME versions of each SSD. Done yet? Nope. Now we need identical systems with RX 580s, RX 570s, RX 560s, AMD VEGAs, GTX1060s, GTX1070s, GTX1080s, GTX1080Ti's, etc. Done yet? Not by a long shot!!! What about different versions of various drivers? Especially different nVidia and AMD drivers for video cards. Now we need to repeat all of those possible configurations by replacing the Gigabyte Z370 AORUS Ultra Gaming motherboard with another motherboard and another motherboard and another motherboard and another motherboard and another motherboard and another motherboard and another motherboard.

Now you get to see just how impossible it can be to test on every single hardware and software configuration that the world has to offer. And this is just a snapshot of what's possible as far as hardware configurations. Oh, and now we get the fun job of duplicating all of those possible hardware permutations and run it with AVG, Avast, TrendMicro, Norton, etc. Oh shit, now the number of hardware and software configurations are numbering in the billions.

If Apple can't maintain perfect software quality with their limited hardware choices just how the hell do you think Microsoft can do it when they have to contend with everything from a cheap Dell being held together with duct tape and chewing gum to someone's elite gaming system?
 
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trparky said:
THIS!!!

With just how many hardware configurations that exist in the market this is quite literally impossible to do. If Microsoft were to do this they would have to have four to five city blocks filled with warehouses with multiple floors and an army of thousands people to test each update on. Why? Think about it. They would have to have each and every single hardware configuration that's imaginable.

Let's take one possible configuration here... take a system with a Gigabyte Z370 AORUS Ultra Gaming motherboard. Take the system and pair it with a Core i3, a Core i5, and a Core i7. Oh, but we're not done yet. Were they overclocked or were they running at stock configurations? We need identical systems with a Samsung SSD, a Toshiba SSD, a Sandisk SSD, a Plextor SSD, a Crucial SSD, and an Intel SSD, etc. Done yet? Nope. We need SATA and NVME versions of each SSD. Done yet? Nope. Now we need identical systems with RX 580s, RX 570s, RX 560s, AMD VEGAs, GTX1060s, GTX1070s, GTX1080s, GTX1080Ti's, etc. Done yet? Not by a long shot!!! What about different versions of various drivers? Especially different nVidia and AMD drivers for video cards. Now we need to repeat all of those possible configurations by replacing the Gigabyte Z370 AORUS Ultra Gaming motherboard with another motherboard and another motherboard and another motherboard and another motherboard and another motherboard and another motherboard and another motherboard.

Now you get to see just how impossible it can be to test on every single hardware and software configuration that the world has to offer. And this is just a snapshot of what's possible as far as hardware configurations. Oh, and now we get the fun job of duplicating all of those possible hardware permutations and run it with AVG, Avast, TrendMicro, Norton, etc. Oh shit, now the number of hardware and software configurations are numbering in the billions.

If Apple can't maintain perfect software quality with their limited hardware choices just how the hell do you think Microsoft can do it when they have to content with everything from a cheap Dell being held together with duct tape and chewing gum to someone's elite gaming system?
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I agree, one of the problems with the great freedom and diversity of the PC marketplace is an almost hopeless level of fragmentation that can't possibly be given 100% coverage testing. Apple will always have an advantage in this regard, as they can test damned near all hardware combinations. That isn't a sacrifice I would be willing to make though.

That being said, the market seems less fragmented today than in the past when there were more hardware manufacturers. There has been so much consolidation. On the flipside, hardware stays relevant longer than ever today, so the fragmentation is also made worse by so much historical hardware still being in use, whereas back in the day your 1 year old GPU would be borderline obsolete, and if you had a two year old CPU, forget about it.
 
Exactly Zarathustra[H], the fragmentation in the PC ecosystem is exactly what's causing these issues that Windows has. And then throw in the fact that not all PCs are made equal, some are thrown together with the cheapest shit hardware possible and some are lovingly put together with high-end hardware from places like Newegg and Microcenter complete with custom loop liquid cooling, fancy cable routing, and LED lights.

Now you get to see why Windows has this supposed quality "issue". It's not a Windows issue, it's an ecosystem issue; one that's fought with fragmentation.
 
I work on machines daily that have update issues and my biggest problem is rolling from early 16xx to 1709+

Always some major issue that almost kills the user profile or boot loops or gets stuck at certain percentages.

I have a couple laptops that are 3rd gen intel. Always up to date no problems. 2 desktops, one got stuck on 1803 and needed the wireless driver and finger print scanner removed for some reason.

So I count myself lucky
 
trparky said:
Exactly Zarathustra[H], the fragmentation in the PC ecosystem is exactly what's causing these issues that Windows has. And then throw in the fact that not all PCs are made equal, some are thrown together with the cheapest shit hardware possible and some are lovingly put together with high-end hardware from places like Newegg and Microcenter complete with custom loop liquid cooling, fancy cable routing, and LED lights.

Now you get to see why Windows has this supposed quality "issue". It's not a Windows issue, it's an ecosystem issue; one that's fought with fragmentation.
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While I agree with you, I also agree with those previously who suggest that it is worse now than it was a few years ago. I see way more people frustrated with updates and trying to disable windows patches these days than during the WIndows 7 era.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I also agree with those previously who suggest that it is worse now than it was a few years ago. I see way more people frustrated with updates and trying to disable windows patches these days than during the WIndows 7 era.
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I'm not denying that there's something rotten in Redmond (because there is!) but the blame can't be squarely put at Microsoft's feet here. A lot of the blame can be put on the fact that a lot of systems are simply garbage to begin with. You know what they say right? If you run shitty hardware, expect to have a shitty experience.
 
trparky said:
I'm not denying that there's something rotten in Redmond (because there is!) but the blame can't be squarely put at Microsoft's feet here. A lot of the blame can be put on the fact that a lot of systems are simply garbage to begin with. You know what they say right? If you run shitty hardware, expect to have a shitty experience.
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Agreed. But are systems really more garbage today, than they were 8 years ago, or has something else changed?
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
But are systems really more garbage today, than they were 8 years ago, or has something else changed?
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You see, here's the problem. We've had this "race to the bottom" mentality lately in the PC industry where we've been wanting cheaper and cheaper systems. It's almost like we've had a contest as to who can build the cheapest PC possible. Well, when you have that mentality something's got to give in the quality department. Cheap for the sake of cheap is always bad. Look at your typical stuff you can find in Walmart, it's cheap as shit and breaks in a few weeks.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
While I agree with you, I also agree with those previously who suggest that it is worse now than it was a few years ago. I see way more people frustrated with updates and trying to disable windows patches these days than during the WIndows 7 era.
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At least in part, people were so far behind on installing the updates that they never had to disable them, they were simply not installed.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
While I agree with you, I also agree with those previously who suggest that it is worse now than it was a few years ago. I see way more people frustrated with updates and trying to disable windows patches these days than during the WIndows 7 era.
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That may be because many people turned off updates completely during windows 7 days.
 
ManofGod said:
At least in part, people were so far behind on installing the updates that they never had to disable them, they were simply not installed.
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Indeed one reason why there may be an appearance of more problems with Windows 10 updates is just how often older versions of Windows never got updated. There's no perfect solution here, more control over the update process would be a good thing especially for the Home version. A simple and quick way to rollback and pause updating as well. That's possible now, at least with the Pro version but it can be flaky.

As long as I've been running Windows with Windows Update introduced in Windows XP, I've just always taken all updates in a timely matter. I personally haven't seen any more problems with 10 updates in the last three years than prior versions. But stuff does happen. I don't think this process is a prone to failure as some might say. But I guess these PC tech guys that make money on this are closer to the problem.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Are People really that stupid?
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Not even so much stupid as afraid. Of course stuff can go wrong and in reading threads like this and around online some would have you believe that a Windows 10 Update will DEFINATELY crash your machine. No if ands or buts about it, it's just going to be bad. So never update and all is well!

The truth for most people is that the update does it thing and works and they go on about their business.
 
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{NG}Fidel said:
It broke 802.3ad on my system as well
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How do you do link aggregation?

I ran into this problem already in November 2015 (If I remember properly)

Apparently Windows 10 - unlike it's predecessors - was never supposed to have link aggregation support, so Microsoft pulled it, either in Threshold 2 in November 2015, or in the first Anniversary update. I can't remember anymore.

Microsoft considers this a server only feature now.

At that point both the integrated software link aggregation AND link aggregation direct via Intel's drivers ceased working for me.

There's a rather long and heated thread about this in Intel's support forums from back in 2015 when it stopped working here.

Did you just not update Windows 10 for a long time? Or maybe you just didn't notice it wasn't working until now?

I spent way more time than I care to admit trying to find a workaround for this, but never succeeded. Eventually I gave up after I found a couple of 10G Base-T Intel NIC's reasonably priced on eBay, and used them for a direct line from my desktop to my NAS, and continued using a single gigabit port for all other network traffic.
 
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