Own an Android Phone? You Might Not Get That Loan

This whole credit score system is BS. I have a 0 credit score (no debt for at least 10 years) Because of this, I have been denied residence at two apartment complexes and been denied car rental about 5 times. What had me absolutely baffled is when I bought a pre-owned car. I paid cash in full, yet the dealership still insisted on a credit check.
 
This seems like a cause of them assuming that correlation implies causation. I have an iphone and therefore I am well off? How about people that get them for free or low cost?
 
This whole credit score system is BS. I have a 0 credit score (no debt for at least 10 years) Because of this, I have been denied residence at two apartment complexes and been denied car rental about 5 times. What had me absolutely baffled is when I bought a pre-owned car. I paid cash in full, yet the dealership still insisted on a credit check.
Due to loans, the price of houses and cars skyrocket. It's easy to increase the price of something that you're taking a loan on cause most people are terrible with math. All they care is what is their monthly fee. This is why today a car costs on average $35k, even though the average American only makes $30k-$40k a year. As soon as you drive it off the lot the price drops because that's the true value of the vehicle.

The rate of inflation is out of control because of fucking banks. After Equifax I find it funny that anyone can still take the credit score system serious. Might explain why they're going by phones now. I nearly erased my debt but I'm sure that won't reflect well on my credit score because they want people to be in perpetual debt.

l-11339-when-i-was-your-age-i-owned-my-own-house.jpg
 
This seems like a cause of them assuming that correlation implies causation. I have an iphone and therefore I am well off? How about people that get them for free or low cost?
Most people I know that have a iphone are basically homeless. They have a nice car and an iPhone but no roof over their head. They're between homes.
 
This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Here's how lending works:

  • If you don't need money the banks will beg to lend you money.
  • If you desperately need money, the banks don't want to lend you money.
  • If the banks do want to lend you money the interest rate will be low.
  • If they don't want to lend you money the interest rate will be high.
  • If you are in between these 2 extremes, you can interpolate.
 
Due to loans, the price of houses and cars skyrocket. It's easy to increase the price of something that you're taking a loan on cause most people are terrible with math. All they care is what is their monthly fee. This is why today a car costs on average $35k, even though the average American only makes $30k-$40k a year. As soon as you drive it off the lot the price drops because that's the true value of the vehicle.

The rate of inflation is out of control because of fucking banks. After Equifax I find it funny that anyone can still take the credit score system serious. Might explain why they're going by phones now. I nearly erased my debt but I'm sure that won't reflect well on my credit score because they want people to be in perpetual debt.

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There is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to start. First of all, you say that people are bad at math (I assume you mean other people not yourself). Then you say inflation is out of control. Finally you say "I nearly erased my debt". Why would you do that if inflation is out of control? If inflation is out of control you want to increase your debt load in today's dollars because you pay them off with inflated dollars in the future. Although I would make the assertion inflation hasn't been out of control in 30 years. Otherwise it's been pretty stable between 2 to 5%.

The average car price is a terrible metric, nobody discloses median but it's likely to be significantly lower considering most people aren't buying $227k Mercedes S63's. That kind of thing is going to skew an average very quickly.

Let's look at the Civic. A 2017 Honda civic sedan, is $20,530. Comes with a 158hp engine that gets 40mpg with airbags everywhere, power everything, bluetooth, climate control, rearview camera, traction control, abs brakes w/ brake assist, . It's 71" wide and 182" long, 42"/37" legroom. A comparable historical car is NOT a 1997 Civic. A comparable car is a 1997 Accord. 1997 Accord: 130hp, 30mpg, 185" long, 70" wide, 42"/34" legroom, only driver and passenger airbags and no other safety features, does have power locks and windows. That Honda Accord? $18,990.

OK now let's work the time value of money. Using the CPI calculator we can see that $18,990 from 1/1/1997 converts to $29,786. So you are SAVING nearly $10,000 and getting a significantly better car. There's pretty much no way you would rather drive a 1997 Accord over a 2018 Civic.

If you want we can do the exact same thing with houses. If you think a house from 20, 30, or 50 years ago is even close to a house from today, you're wrong. Most old homes had 1 bathroom for every 3 bedrooms. Now new homes are 1 full bath for every 1 bedroom, air conditioning standard, improved insulation to reduce your heating and cooling bills, better materials (no lead or asbestos), etc... If you want to live in downtown Palo Alto? Yea you're fucked. No different than Manhattan 50 years ago. If you want to live in the suburbs and have a nice house with a picket fence basically anywhere other than a very few select cities? You're better off today than you were 50 years ago.
 
Windows phone i do have, up the creek I must be. SOL ~ Windows phone is now virtually off the grid. so barter system is my only option.
 
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Hmm, I have an 822 FICO and own 3 houses. My debt to income ratio is less than 10%; maybe I should switch from Android to iPhone...

This algorithm seems a bit odd to me...
 
If you don't understand how credit works, Google it. There are thousands of websites devoted on establishing, repairing and/or improving credit scores. Credit is a huge determining factor for ALL business risk, not just unsecured purchases. Businesses use credit scores for almost everything. It's a "game" of sorts. If you play the "game" well, you'll save lots of money. If you play the "game" poorly, you will struggle with it. Yes, it's possible to make it through life without the use of credit, but it's not practical nor financially beneficial.
 
It is clear from this story that they don't seem to have a clear grasp on how to analyze data.

Econometrics and linear regression are all good and well, but you have to look for dependencies in your variables. If your variables are too dependent (as I presume the phone ownership and income variables may be, as they are probably an income estimator in disguise) your analysis is mostly worthless, regardless of what it says.

Some of these insurance company and bank employees really ought to take a college level course in linear regression before enacting their misguided policies.
 
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There is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to start. First of all, you say that people are bad at math (I assume you mean other people not yourself). Then you say inflation is out of control. Finally you say "I nearly erased my debt". Why would you do that if inflation is out of control? If inflation is out of control you want to increase your debt load in today's dollars because you pay them off with inflated dollars in the future. Although I would make the assertion inflation hasn't been out of control in 30 years. Otherwise it's been pretty stable between 2 to 5%.
Because being in debt really fucking sucks. Pay doesn't increase with inflation and if you can't make payments then you get fees and interest rates go up. Debt collectors can levy bank accounts which can cause all sorts of problems. Better yet you have a health problem and can't pay shit.
The average car price is a terrible metric, nobody discloses median but it's likely to be significantly lower considering most people aren't buying $227k Mercedes S63's. That kind of thing is going to skew an average very quickly.

Let's look at the Civic. A 2017 Honda civic sedan, is $20,530. Comes with a 158hp engine that gets 40mpg with airbags everywhere, power everything, bluetooth, climate control, rearview camera, traction control, abs brakes w/ brake assist, . It's 71" wide and 182" long, 42"/37" legroom. A comparable historical car is NOT a 1997 Civic. A comparable car is a 1997 Accord. 1997 Accord: 130hp, 30mpg, 185" long, 70" wide, 42"/34" legroom, only driver and passenger airbags and no other safety features, does have power locks and windows. That Honda Accord? $18,990.

OK now let's work the time value of money. Using the CPI calculator we can see that $18,990 from 1/1/1997 converts to $29,786. So you are SAVING nearly $10,000 and getting a significantly better car. There's pretty much no way you would rather drive a 1997 Accord over a 2018 Civic.
A 1990 Honda Accord was $14k. A 2000 Honda Accord was $20k. A 2018 Honda Accord is $24k but can go up as high as $35k. The average household income in 1990 was $53k, while today it's $59k. The same car went up in price by at least $10k to at most $20k, and yet the average income hasn't gone up.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-income-in-the-united-states/

Most people today would rather take $10k and buy a used Mercedes or Lexus with 10x more features than today's low end cars. Car industry is ignoring the used auto market and how it effects their sales. Prices should be lower, not higher. But hey, don't believe me. Lets see if in a year or two if GM, Ford, and Chrysler don't file for bankruptcy cause they keep producing cheap junk cars that are overpriced. European and Japanese autos are just as likely to suffer from this, but at least they produce cars that aren't throw away.
If you want we can do the exact same thing with houses. If you think a house from 20, 30, or 50 years ago is even close to a house from today, you're wrong. Most old homes had 1 bathroom for every 3 bedrooms. Now new homes are 1 full bath for every 1 bedroom, air conditioning standard, improved insulation to reduce your heating and cooling bills, better materials (no lead or asbestos), etc... If you want to live in downtown Palo Alto? Yea you're fucked. No different than Manhattan 50 years ago. If you want to live in the suburbs and have a nice house with a picket fence basically anywhere other than a very few select cities? You're better off today than you were 50 years ago.
Most homes today are 30 - 40 years old. Only new homes built recently are better, and even then people do extensions and what not. But a house in the 80's was like $70k where the same house today is over $400k. What the even fuck. That's why we had the housing crisis because houses were inflating uncontrollably. It's going to happen again cause banks are pushing for higher prices again. New Jersey, where I live, we have the highest rate of zombie homes and forecloses. It's already happening, but we'll pretend nothing is wrong until the banks file for bankruptcy.

I hope to Steve Wozniak that we don't bail the banks again.
 
A 1990 Honda Accord was $14k. A 2000 Honda Accord was $20k. A 2018 Honda Accord is $24k but can go up as high as $35k. The average household income in 1990 was $53k, while today it's $59k. The same car went up in price by at least $10k to at most $20k, and yet the average income hasn't gone up.

I agree with your sentiment, but this example is slightly flawed.

The reason for this is that the Honda Accord in 1990 was a very different vehicle than it is today. The Accord has moved up a lot in both size and become a more upscale vehicle.

I'd argue that the 1990 Honda Accord is closer to a Honda Civic today.

It's a little bit more abstract, but I think the point is more accurately made by looking at the CPI-U (Consumer Price Index). Consumer prices from January 1990 to January 2018 went up 82.93%, and to your point, the median income has only risen by about 11.3% since then. So yeah, on average people have seen a MAJOR decrease in standard of living since 1990.
 
Because being in debt really fucking sucks. Pay doesn't increase with inflation and if you can't make payments then you get fees and interest rates go up. Debt collectors can levy bank accounts which can cause all sorts of problems. Better yet you have a health problem and can't pay shit.

Sure but your loan payments dont go up with inflation either. If youre borrowing so much you cant pay the loan after inflation youre borrowing too much.

I prefer to use other peoples money to do things ;).
 
I'm still running a Windows Phone. They would probably call the cops on me.
 
ahaha. who are the dumbfuck statisticians who arrived at this?

confounding factor at best.
A lot of iphone owners are irresponsible spenders.

Stick to tried and true data, like credit card payment history. These "big data" companies are just coming up with this bullshit to stay relevant when, in reality, they're not needed.

This x 1000.

If you want to know if someone will likely pay on a loan you are considering offering, you look at their prior payment history, current debt load, income, etc. If they have an iPhone or placed their order after 9 PM doesn't mean crap.
 
The average household income in 1990 was $53k, while today it's $59k. The same car went up in price by at least $10k to at most $20k, and yet the average income hasn't gone up.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/200838/median-household-income-in-the-united-states/

Your argument is invalid. You quoted adjusted for inflation income for previous years (1990) earnings and unadjusted pricing on the purchase price of the vehicle.. You have to use the same metric if you wish to compare relative prices.


Here is 1990 income, in 1990 dollars:
https://www2.census.gov/prod2/popscan/p60-174.pdf
 
Cause or effect?

IPhone user might be more likely to make money by scribbling a few lines in a paint program and selling it for millions. IPhone buyer might be more likely to spend 5 days producing 3 gourmet KitKat. Banks reward those that make money firstly, not really based on *how* they make it. IPhone users I find - tend to place extreme value on their achievements no matter what it is.

If they determine that you bought a semi-automatic weapon, they may flag you as a successful drug dealer - and be more likely to give you more credit. Such is the way the world works.

Personally: I think the man on the moon missions were mostly a Trillion dollar program that left a flag and a big pile of human feces on the moon. China will actually build a reflective satellite relay on the moon and make it the uber-satellite, requiring no fuel to stay in orbit for millennia - that it always was. That mentality, makes me an android user.
 
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IPhone user probably has an $16 per slice avocado toast shop that sells to $100,000 in debt millennial students.

Which is *exactly* the type of customer the banks want. People that make wage slaves out of other people, and reliant on banks to survive day to day. Seriously, its pure logic - Banks cannot reward fiscally prudent and responsible borrowers and businesses.
 
Seriously, its pure logic - Banks cannot reward fiscally prudent and responsible borrowers and businesses.

Sure they can and they do. If it is essentially a "sure thing" that you will get your money back plus interest on the loan due to the person being a ultra-low risk you offer a lower rate to get the loan closed. They are essentially guaranteed a profit in interest. If it is a high risk loan, rates go up as that person can't rate shop as much, and the bank also has to assume a certain percent will default, so the rate for that risk pool needs to be higher to make money as a whole.
 
A 1990 Honda Accord was $14k. A 2000 Honda Accord was $20k. A 2018 Honda Accord is $24k but can go up as high as $35k. The average household income in 1990 was $53k, while today it's $59k. The same car went up in price by at least $10k to at most $20k, and yet the average income hasn't gone up.

Dude you didn't even read what I wrote. You're missing the point that cars have actually gotten CHEAPER over time. The new Accord is incomparable to the old Accord because it's significantly larger and comparble to an Acura from 10-15 years ago. I used actual facts that point out that 2 comparable cars have basically not even moved in price on a static basis and on an inflation adjusted basis have gotten much cheaper while providing significantly more benefit.

You sound like you're mad at the world and refuse to even read any facts that don't agree with your idea that the world is terrible and we're all fucked. The only problem we have with debt in this country is that 99% of the country is financially illiterate. Debt isn't the problem, it's people who don't know how it works racking it up. Blaming anything on debt is like blaming forks for obesity.

Maybe an easier concept would be televisions. Median TV is probably more than a median TV from 20 years ago but when you're talking a 75" flatscreen with netflix built in vs a tube tv that's 34" and weighs 250lbs, your purely notional inflation number goes out the window. There are inherent improvements over time that do not get calculated into inflation.

I know you will never read it but this is an amazing book that explains how the world is getting better at essentially an exponential rate. If you think you would be better off middle class in the 1960's vs the 1990's vs 2020's, you're just plain wrong. Think about your phone, think about your car, think about the medical improvements, think about your access to information from the internet, think about your selection of food at the supermarket. I would rather make $75k today and enjoy my Galaxy S9 and internet than $250,000 and live 50 years ago driving this piece of shit and playing backgammon.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTPJo6d47a2v4IEWJ0WGFrqJ7FSN8OqTzs4uUGkpTHb2KpCl3hC.jpg
 
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I'll wait until my flip phone becomes cool and then get a nice big loan I can't afford!

Next up loans based on what dog or cat breed you own.

Maybe some day they'll start teaching statistics and how to use them, starting in middle school.
 
Your argument is invalid. You quoted adjusted for inflation income for previous years (1990) earnings and unadjusted pricing on the purchase price of the vehicle.. You have to use the same metric if you wish to compare relative prices.


Here is 1990 income, in 1990 dollars:
https://www2.census.gov/prod2/popscan/p60-174.pdf
No where in my article says that 1990 money was adjusted for inflation. Going over that PDF that you linked from 1991 shows the average income in homes to be about $30k. That PDF is huge and I really wished you just told me the numbers so that I didn't have to look that up. Assuming that statistic of yours in 1991 is true, and assuming my articles statistic is true in 2016, then the yearly income from 1990 to 2016 has doubled. But inflation has more than doubled. Like I said, a home in 1990 was like $70k but today that same home is well over $400k. That's an inflation rate of 6x.

I could go by how many hours have been worked by Americans. In 1998 it was a total of 198 billion hours, and that's the same in 2013. We have a 42% increased gain of output since 1998. The population did grow since 1998, so we should have seen more working hours go up. Same hours worked but an increase of 40% of the population since 1998. Something something inflation something.

http://conversableeconomist.blogspot.com/2014/05/hours-worked-no-change-output-up-42.html

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Sure but your loan payments dont go up with inflation either. If youre borrowing so much you cant pay the loan after inflation youre borrowing too much.

I prefer to use other peoples money to do things ;).
That isn't free money. What happens when you can't pay it back due to unforeseen consequences?

I agree with your sentiment, but this example is slightly flawed.

The reason for this is that the Honda Accord in 1990 was a very different vehicle than it is today. The Accord has moved up a lot in both size and become a more upscale vehicle.

I'd argue that the 1990 Honda Accord is closer to a Honda Civic today.
If you wanted the same car with the same MPG and same horsepower. Not to forget government enforced regulations for safety and emissions as well. But again, the used auto-market is far more sensible. For less than half I could buy a used Mercedes that's 10 years old with far more features than a 2018 Honda Accord, let alone a Civic.

It's so bad that 6.3 million Americans are 90 days late on their auto loan payments. That's recession level problems right there. Wanna know why banks may use stupid shit like owning an overpriced phone?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ayments/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.06b3c9c66704
It's a little bit more abstract, but I think the point is more accurately made by looking at the CPI-U (Consumer Price Index). Consumer prices from January 1990 to January 2018 went up 82.93%, and to your point, the median income has only risen by about 11.3% since then. So yeah, on average people have seen a MAJOR decrease in standard of living since 1990.
Because of fucking banks. Look at the PC industry, has prices gone up steadily? I remember my parents buying my first computer in the early 90's to be like over $1.5k. Today you can own a much faster computer for $450. But yet the same car with the same features and engine power is I guess the same price. The Accord got better, but so did the price.

BTW recently PC prices have gone up because the competition is down to two. AMD vs Intel CPU's and god forbid AMD fucks up cause Intel will just stagnant the market. Nvidia vs AMD which again god forbid AMD doesn't make the fastest GPU, cause the prices will just skyrocket. We don't even have a choice for motherboard chipset manufacturers like we used to. We used to have SIS, Via, Nvidia, AMD, ATI, and Intel for motherboard chipsets. Now it's Intel and AMD, and realistically only Intel for Intel and AMD for AMD. The market has no real competition and the prices will climb as a result.
 
No where in my article says that 1990 money was adjusted for inflation. Going over that PDF that you linked from 1991 shows the average income in homes to be about $30k. That PDF is huge and I really wished you just told me the numbers so that I didn't have to look that up. Assuming that statistic of yours in 1991 is true, and assuming my articles statistic is true in 2016, then the yearly income from 1990 to 2016 has doubled. But inflation has more than doubled. Like I said, a home in 1990 was like $70k but today that same home is well over $400k. That's an inflation rate of 6x.

I could go by how many hours have been worked by Americans. In 1998 it was a total of 198 billion hours, and that's the same in 2013. We have a 42% increased gain of output since 1998. The population did grow since 1998, so we should have seen more working hours go up. Same hours worked but an increase of 40% of the population since 1998. Something something inflation something.

http://conversableeconomist.blogspot.com/2014/05/hours-worked-no-change-output-up-42.html

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That isn't free money. What happens when you can't pay it back due to unforeseen consequences?


If you wanted the same car with the same MPG and same horsepower. Not to forget government enforced regulations for safety and emissions as well. But again, the used auto-market is far more sensible. For less than half I could buy a used Mercedes that's 10 years old with far more features than a 2018 Honda Accord, let alone a Civic.

It's so bad that 6.3 million Americans are 90 days late on their auto loan payments. That's recession level problems right there. Wanna know why banks may use stupid shit like owning an overpriced phone?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ayments/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.06b3c9c66704

Because of fucking banks. Look at the PC industry, has prices gone up steadily? I remember my parents buying my first computer in the early 90's to be like over $1.5k. Today you can own a much faster computer for $450. But yet the same car with the same features and engine power is I guess the same price. The Accord got better, but so did the price.

BTW recently PC prices have gone up because the competition is down to two. AMD vs Intel CPU's and god forbid AMD fucks up cause Intel will just stagnant the market. Nvidia vs AMD which again god forbid AMD doesn't make the fastest GPU, cause the prices will just skyrocket. We don't even have a choice for motherboard chipset manufacturers like we used to. We used to have SIS, Via, Nvidia, AMD, ATI, and Intel for motherboard chipsets. Now it's Intel and AMD, and realistically only Intel for Intel and AMD for AMD. The market has no real competition and the prices will climb as a result.
Don't forget Ali chipsets.
These companies quit because it was too hard, and/or they weren't any good at it and do something else now.
Nowadays I do more stuff on a Linux powered Chromebook than I could have ten years ago with a 500w $2000 box.
But since I use Android I guess I'm a second rate citizen.
Do they make iPhone skins for Android phones?
 
I know you will never read it but this is an amazing book that explains how the world is getting better at essentially an exponential rate. If you think you would be better off middle class in the 1960's vs the 1990's vs 2020's, you're just plain wrong. Think about your phone, think about your car, think about the medical improvements, think about your access to information from the internet, think about your selection of food at the supermarket. I would rather make $75k today and enjoy my Galaxy S9 and internet than $250,000 and live 50 years ago driving this piece of shit and playing backgammon.

While it is true the world overall is getting better, and in most places it isn't it is getting worse at a slower pace (Hans Rosling did some excellent talks on it) you are also missing some of the problems with wage stagnation in the US. It is easy to look at the overall inflation number, which has been low, or the quality and availability of some nice luxury goods like bigscreen TVs and smartphones and think it is all great. However that masks the real problem: Inflation is not even across all sectors. You have sectors like tech that more or less have had steady deflation, but then you have others that have had a large amount of inflation, far more than the average. Wanna guess what some of the biggest are? Healthcare and education. Food and energy are up there as well. If you are well off, then this doesn't really matter. These things aren't that big a part of your budget, you can afford the increase and basically make it up in that you can get luxuries cheaper. However if you are on the lower end of things, these make up a bigger and bigger part of your budget, meaning the increase is more painful. Goes double for education since a college degree has become so mandatory for jobs these days, rightly or wrongly. It is difficult to just get a high school education and go and get a well paid job, and university costs have grown a ton.

As cool as the modern technology we have is, it doesn't make up for access to healthcare when you need it, a good education, things like that. When those costs rise to levels people have trouble affording, it doesn't really matter how cheap a bigscreen TV is or how amazing the latest smartphone is, they'll feel the economic pain.
 
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Don't forget Ali chipsets.
These companies quit because it was too hard, and/or they weren't any good at it and do something else now.
Nowadays I do more stuff on a Linux powered Chromebook than I could have ten years ago with a 500w $2000 box.
But since I use Android I guess I'm a second rate citizen.
Do they make iPhone skins for Android phones?
I believe that you need a license to make chipsets and Intel and AMD denied that. SIS and Via maybe couldn't keep up but Nvidia most definitely could. And I totally forgot about Ali.
 
I'm still running a Windows Phone. They would probably call the cops on me.

As they SHOULD. Thats just criminal.

That isn't free money. What happens when you can't pay it back due to unforeseen consequences?

I never said it was free money I said I prefer to use other peoples money and make it work for me. Also I said if youre borrowing so much you cant pay it back youre borrowing too much. Are you not saving up for emergencies? Thats what you do for unforeseen consequences. Sure you cant plan for everything and maybe you end up not being able to pay. Shit happens. You could end up in that scenario regardless of debt.

But lets put it this way: If you buy a house with a loan payment thats just 1% of your income and you suddenly cant pay even that what do you think is going to happen? Youre going to get kicked out. Because you cant pay.

Now what do you think happens if you do that in a debt free way by renting a place for the same amount. Same end game, only it happens a lot faster because evictions are generally easier than foreclosures.

Unless your paying cash for EVERYTHING you are always going to have the what if I cant pay risk. No scratch that you STILL have that risk. Even if you paid cash for your home and own it 100% it can still be foreclosed on. Why? Taxes.

So I am not entirely certain what your point is except that you appear to be saying debt is bad and you should only pay cash? Thank you but no I would rather not go back to living in mud brick huts with thatched roofs while the 1% live in castles...
 
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But yet the same car with the same features and engine power is I guess the same price. The Accord got better, but so did the price.

This is the 3rd time you are saying this completely wrong thing so I am going to explicitly refute it AGAIN. Maybe better formatting will help you. Let's compare a 2017 Civic and a 1997 Accord. Why am I comparing a Civic and an Accord? Because they're the same exact size.

2017 Civic
  • Engine: 158hp, 40mpg
  • Options: airbags everywhere, power everything, bluetooth, climate control, rearview camera, traction control, abs brakes w/ brake assist, .
  • Size: 182" long, 71" wide and 42"/37" legroom.

1997 Accord:
  • Engine: 130hp, 30mpg,
  • Options: Driver and passenger airbags, power door locks and windows.
  • Size: 185" long, 70" wide and 42"/34" legroom,

Comparison Breakdown:
  • Engine: Winner 2017 Civic
  • Options: Winner 2017 Civic
  • Size: Draw


OK now let's work the time value of money. Using the CPI calculator we can see that $18,990 from 1/1/1997 converts to $29,786. So to compare price:

2017 Civic: $20,530 in 2018 dollars
1997 Accord: $29,786 in 2018 dollars.


So you are SAVING nearly $10,000 and getting a significantly better car. There's pretty much no way you would rather drive a 1997 Accord over a 2018 Civic.
 
As cool as the modern technology we have is, it doesn't make up for access to healthcare when you need it, a good education, things like that. When those costs rise to levels people have trouble affording, it doesn't really matter how cheap a bigscreen TV is or how amazing the latest smartphone is, they'll feel the economic pain.

This is a really good point and in both of those cases nobody actually pays for either of those things directly and that's why there's so many problems. If you had "grocery insurance" and you paid $100/mo for whatever groceries you want, you'd never compare price and you'd never shop around. I just had blood taken for my routine yearly exams. I have no idea what it really costs, I just know my deductible was $50. My friend's kid just had his tonsils out, he has no idea what it cost, he just paid the deductible. Could he have shopped around and found a cheaper hospital to do the procedure? Sure but why would he? This is one way we get insane healthcare cost inflation. Why is it that Lasik eye surgery and breast implants are 1/10th of their original cost but all other healthcare costs have gone up? Because there's no insurance coverage for lasik's or breast implants. Despite all the rising healthcare costs, I do believe I am better off getting surgery or cancer treatment today than 50 years ago. Are the prices exorbitantly higher? Yes. But did we have PDL1 inhibitors back then? No. Did we have powered endocutters and routine laparoscopic surgeries? No. So I am in full agreement with you that rising healthcare costs are worrisome but I still maintain that it's hard to tell the actual trade off between price inflation vs quality increases.

Same thing for education. #1, most kids don't pay full boat for college. They get financial aid and grants which blunt the actual rising cost of tuition yet the nominal full rate of tuition is what is always stated. This isn't to say tuition hasn't been rising exponentially, it has. I'm just saying many kids will never pay that full number. #2, kids can get student loans without any regard to their performance in school or chosen major. Would any rational person give the same interest rate to a C student majoring in 15th Century LGBT Studies as to a A student double majoring in Comp Sci and EE? Of course not. But instead banks are happy to throw money at kids because nobody can expunge their student loan debts so they feel they have a high probability of recovery. So similar to the medical issue, kids load up on student loans, usually at an age at which they know nothing about finance, and then pay the loans off over 20 to 30 years. If banks stopped lending carte blanche to kids, college tuition hikes would grind to a halt.
 
Considering China's new credit plan and the desire for one world goverment and religion it should not be suprising. The endgame of is to be able to identify and terminate a person from being able to engage in any commerce in any part of the world instantly. Everything about a person will be used to determine if you a world citizen or not. Conisder the Utah NSA datacenter that most Senators claimed to have no knowledge of and its massive bulk datacollection.

Do the Jesuits run China?
 
This is the 3rd time you are saying this completely wrong thing so I am going to explicitly refute it AGAIN. Maybe better formatting will help you. Let's compare a 2017 Civic and a 1997 Accord. Why am I comparing a Civic and an Accord? Because they're the same exact size.

2017 Civic
  • Engine: 158hp, 40mpg
  • Options: airbags everywhere, power everything, bluetooth, climate control, rearview camera, traction control, abs brakes w/ brake assist, .
  • Size: 182" long, 71" wide and 42"/37" legroom.

1997 Accord:
  • Engine: 130hp, 30mpg,
  • Options: Driver and passenger airbags, power door locks and windows.
  • Size: 185" long, 70" wide and 42"/34" legroom,

Comparison Breakdown:
  • Engine: Winner 2017 Civic
  • Options: Winner 2017 Civic
  • Size: Draw


OK now let's work the time value of money. Using the CPI calculator we can see that $18,990 from 1/1/1997 converts to $29,786. So to compare price:

2017 Civic: $20,530 in 2018 dollars
1997 Accord: $29,786 in 2018 dollars.


So you are SAVING nearly $10,000 and getting a significantly better car. There's pretty much no way you would rather drive a 1997 Accord over a 2018 Civic.

Well the engines arent the same same. Looks like the physical size isnt exact either. Hate to be pedantic here but you did say exact...

Also I would totally rather drive a 1997 than a 2018. Do you know how hard it is to fix a 2018 when compared to a 1997? A lot harder. Not only is it harder to get at some things but there is computer programming in some cases that may be entirely unavailable to do by anyone other than an authorized service station.
 
No where in my article says that 1990 money was adjusted for inflation.

That's because your "article" is on a website that's a shitty data aggregator that wants to charge you money to see what the source is. 60 seconds of googling should find you the source but common sense alone should have told you that those numbers are inflation adjusted.

But inflation has more than doubled. Like I said, a home in 1990 was like $70k but today that same home is well over $400k. That's an inflation rate of 6x.

Nevermind, you appear to not know what inflation adjusted means. Your home price example is ridiculous and does not correlate at all to median home prices let alone average inflation.

It also runs counter to your argument. If inflation has been 600% then cars being less than 100% means cars are amazing deals right now.
 
Demand for houses in the densest cities rose since 1990. 1991 set the national record for total homicides, even with 250 million people instead of 326 million.
 
Well the engines arent the same same. Looks like the physical size isnt exact either. Hate to be pedantic here but you did say exact...

Also I would totally rather drive a 1997 than a 2018. Do you know how hard it is to fix a 2018 when compared to a 1997? A lot harder. Not only is it harder to get at some things but there is computer programming in some cases that may be entirely unavailable to do by anyone other than an authorized service station.

You're right, the Civic engine is better in power, better in efficiency which means a lower overall cost of ownership, and it has more legroom. In fact, the Civic also has 15 cu ft of cargo space vs 13 in the accord while being 3 inches shorter on the exterior which is actually helpful for turning radius and parking but I didn't want to be a dick about it since they were close enough.

I think the difference between buying a new civic today or a used accord really depends on how much money you have. If I had no money at all, I'd buy the used accord, it's a no brainer. Great car, great reliability. If I could afford to buy a new Civic I would buy a new civic. If I got in a bad accident, the Civic would protect me better than the used Accord. Just the side airbag alone could be a life saver if I were to get hit in the driver door. Beyond any other car metric, I take safety into account as #1 but that's just me.
 
My credit score is 757. My phone is a Pixel 2 XL. I wonder which would have more of an impact towards getting a loan?

People getting all bent out of shape. The thing is both metrics are flawed. I haven't ever defaulted on a loan. I have been a good credit risk to date. My pattern of behavior is exactly the same as when I started my credit history, but my score has changed over the years. Now I get dinged for not borrowing enough money. So my friend who has had to resort to debt consolidation in the past now has a higher score than I do.

The credit reporting industry is looking at new scores, and we see this digital footprint thing. They are all the same thing. The industry is looking to build a better map of risk AND attractiveness of the customer for a given business.

You can say your score is 757, but has it moved in the last few years at all? That may be for the exact same type of thing you are scoffing at simply because someone attached a brand name to it.
 
This is the 3rd time you are saying this completely wrong thing so I am going to explicitly refute it AGAIN. Maybe better formatting will help you. Let's compare a 2017 Civic and a 1997 Accord. Why am I comparing a Civic and an Accord? Because they're the same exact size.

2017 Civic
  • Engine: 158hp, 40mpg
  • Options: airbags everywhere, power everything, bluetooth, climate control, rearview camera, traction control, abs brakes w/ brake assist, .
  • Size: 182" long, 71" wide and 42"/37" legroom.

1997 Accord:
  • Engine: 130hp, 30mpg,
  • Options: Driver and passenger airbags, power door locks and windows.
  • Size: 185" long, 70" wide and 42"/34" legroom,

Comparison Breakdown:
  • Engine: Winner 2017 Civic
  • Options: Winner 2017 Civic
  • Size: Draw
You insist to compare two cars with similar features, but if we applied this logic with computers then I should be grateful to be using a Raspberry Pi for $2k since it has similar features and performance to that of a computer made in the year 2000. Which means in the automotive industry we either made no progress, or limited that progress with a higher price. Also those options you list are just mandated by the government with the exception of bluetooth and rearview camera, which I can put in any car for $140 that literally runs Android. In fact, I've done this like five times. Rearview camera's on Ebay are like $8, no joke.

OK now let's work the time value of money. Using the CPI calculator we can see that $18,990 from 1/1/1997 converts to $29,786. So to compare price:

2017 Civic: $20,530 in 2018 dollars
1997 Accord: $29,786 in 2018 dollars.


So you are SAVING nearly $10,000 and getting a significantly better car. There's pretty much no way you would rather drive a 1997 Accord over a 2018 Civic.
Or, I could buy a 2015 Mercedes C300 for the same amount. The moment a car drives off the lot its value is then evaluated on the used market despite how little miles are put onto the car. That's cause the vehicle is given its true value.

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/l-Used-Mercedes-Benz-m43#listing=203286619

A 2015 Honda Accord is like $19k with 22,000 miles. That Mercedes was originally $40k and that's base price.

Well the engines arent the same same. Looks like the physical size isnt exact either. Hate to be pedantic here but you did say exact...

Also I would totally rather drive a 1997 than a 2018. Do you know how hard it is to fix a 2018 when compared to a 1997? A lot harder. Not only is it harder to get at some things but there is computer programming in some cases that may be entirely unavailable to do by anyone other than an authorized service station.
It would be better to compare an Accord to an Accord cause that's a certain class of car. Which in 21 years there had better be improvements in the same car. A Corvette today is pretty much a world of difference compared to a 1980's Corvette, and there's a lot of cars today that produce more power than that 80's Corvette, but a Corvette holds many more standards than features and engine horsepower. A Camaro is not a Corvette, it's a poor mans Corvette. Just like a Honda Civic is not a Honda Accord. It's similar but the Accord has more space, which is the same reason you bought an Accord in 1997.

Also if a 2018 car has already broken down, I would ask for my money back. If you plan to keep it indefinitely, yea repairs are going to be a bitch later on.

You're right, the Civic engine is better in power, better in efficiency which means a lower overall cost of ownership, and it has more legroom. In fact, the Civic also has 15 cu ft of cargo space vs 13 in the accord while being 3 inches shorter on the exterior which is actually helpful for turning radius and parking but I didn't want to be a dick about it since they were close enough.
I think at this point the Honda cars are a bad example since the Civic and Accords in 2018 are too damn similar. Why even make two cars when they have similar features? But there has to be a reason they charge more for the Accord. It must have more trunk space from the photos. That's a super small looking trunk for the Civic.

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usc80hoc024d021003.png
 
You insist to compare two cars with similar features, but if we applied this logic with computers then I should be grateful to be using a Raspberry Pi for $2k since it has similar features and performance to that of a computer made in the year 2000. Which means in the automotive industry we either made no progress, or limited that progress with a higher price. Also those options you list are just mandated by the government with the exception of bluetooth and rearview camera, which I can put in any car for $140 that literally runs Android. In fact, I've done this like five times. Rearview camera's on Ebay are like $8, no joke.

Way to move the goalposts. Remember your quote below?

A 1990 Honda Accord was $14k. A 2000 Honda Accord was $20k. A 2018 Honda Accord is $24k but can go up as high as $35k. The average household income in 1990 was $53k, while today it's $59k. The same car went up in price by at least $10k to at most $20k, and yet the average income hasn't gone up.

Your argument wasn't "Cars aren't progressing fast enough", your argument was "the same car" is going up in price which is false. I gave you data on "the same car". Now you want to argue "well it's the same car but it's not good enough".
 
Unadjusted 1990 median income is $30,126 according to the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis. Use the Accord price unadjusted and it's more expensive than a 2018 Accord.
 
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