More Confirmation Of NVIDIA GPP Impacting Consumer Choice

Rvenger said:
This screws AMD Ryzen mobile I would think as well. Especially if they decide to put a 6-8 core monster CPU they would be forced to go Nvidia. No Vega or Navi mobile for you.
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Not necessarily. With the tech they used with the Kaby Lake-G processor, they could easily stuff Navi under the hood. I mean, c'mon, isn't it obvious that the other two cores in Threadripper are there for video???
 
ChadD said:
Not to mention that in most countries outside the US. Coke has been in court more then once and lost. Coke in many countries used to do things like lock supply in on fountain dispensers, and discounted or supplied coolers in exchange for exclusive supply deals. They where sued over it and lost. (well accept in the US... the courts there seem to have a higher tolerance for BS)
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Y'know, I have less a problem with the cola thing, because most of these national chains negotiate a fee to supply ALL of their stores, with a few exceptions where they aren't allowed to eliminate brands (truck stops in Oklahoma iirc, the I 90 toll road rest stops in Ohio, etc.). Now, when they do this shit to independents, then yeah, throw the book at them.
 
Who cares? RTG isn’t competitive. I just priced out a build for a guy. Cheapest 580 8gb is $100 more than a GOOD 1060 6gb. Even if prices were normal AMD AT BEST competes with 1070 and 18 months LATE. V64 is a hot loud power hungry mess. And with Navi supposedly only targeting 1080 - RTG is TOAST until maybe 2020 post GCN.
 
Rathor said:
Who cares? RTG isn’t competitive. I just priced out a build for a guy. Cheapest 580 8gb is $100 more than a GOOD 1060 6gb. Even if prices were normal AMD AT BEST competes with 1070 and 18 months LATE. V64 is a hot loud power hungry mess. And with Navi supposedly only targeting 1080 - RTG is TOAST until maybe 2020 post GCN.
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This is the attitude about this that is dangerous. NVIDIA is not doing GPP for "now," it is doing it for the long play.....years. And if you can push your competition out of the best known "gaming brands" while they are down, they will not be their either when they can compete. A FWIW, at MSRP, the only place RTG isn't competitive is at the 1080Ti level.
 
bigdogchris said:
We just need to keep the pressure on. Eventually someone in the finance industry will report on possible antitrust issues Nvidia may be facing and due to how well their stock has done recently, it will make major news. Nvidia will be forced to respond.
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There is no antitrust issue. Nvidia has the right to control their branding. The put a lot of $$ into co-marketing - and it is unfair for AMD to get a free ride on Nvidia marketing dollars. AMD can work with OEMs to make their own brands and spend its own money promoting them.

You do realize Nvidia has the right NOT to sell it product to an OEM at all - right? What do you say about Sapphire and Powercolor and Others being “AMD ONLY”? Is that illegal?
 
Rathor said:
I respectfully disagree. Nvidia spends a lot of money co-marketing those brands - and looking at Steam (instead of peddie which includes mining) Nvidia is 90% of those Brands volume. AMD has no right to benefit from Nvidias comarketing and engineering JV $$$.
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Disagreement noted. Steam stats are not correct FWIW, but that his neither here nor there.
 
Nvidia did not create ROG, Asus did. And Asus put both Nvidia and AMD video cards inside that brand. And they have been markeing that way for years.
Now Nvidia comes along and tells Asus ROG belongs to Nvidia, not you, Asus.
The only brand that belongs to Nvidia is GeForce, but they are flexing their market share and trying to take was is not theirs.

And if Nvidia was such a good little boy in all this why are they so silent on this issue, as shit hits the fan? If what Kyle has reported is false Nvidia would be all in our faces explaining things. Instead they act like they have never heard of GPP.
 
IKV1476 said:
Nvidia did not create ROG, Asus did. And Asus put both Nvidia and AMD video cards inside that brand. And they have been markeing that way for years.
Now Nvidia comes along and tells Asus ROG belongs to Nvidia, not you, Asus.
The only brand that belongs to Nvidia is GeForce, but they are flexing their market share and trying to take was is not theirs.

And if Nvidia was such a good little boy in all this why are they so silent on this issue, as shit hits the fan? If what Kyle has reported is false Nvidia would be all in our faces explaining things. Instead they act like they have never heard of GPP.
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If it’s Asus’ brand 100% then why are they worried about losing co-marketing dollars.

Also, busniess is dirty. Like anything competitive. The question is only are they doing something illegal. And the fact is we don’t have enough info and non of us are antitrust lawyers. If they are telling OEMs not to make AMD cards or telling retailers not to sell them - that’s illegal. But for them to say “we will only put co-marketing and engineering $$ behind Nvidia Exclusive brands - that’s SMART.
 
Rathor said:
If it’s Asus’ brand 100% then why are they worried about losing co-marketing dollars.

Also, busniess is dirty. Like anything competitive. The question is only are they doing something illegal. And the fact is we don’t have enough info and non of us are antitrust lawyers. If they are telling OEMs not to make AMD cards or telling retailers not to sell them - that’s illegal. But for them to say “we will only put co-marketing and engineering $$ behind Nvidia Exclusive brands - that’s SMART.
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Considering that established gaming brands outsell non-gaming brands 3 to 1, might be something to consider.
 
Rathor said:
If it’s Asus’ brand 100% then why are they worried about losing co-marketing dollars.

Also, busniess is dirty. Like anything competitive. The question is only are they doing something illegal. And the fact is we don’t have enough info and non of us are antitrust lawyers. If they are telling OEMs not to make AMD cards or telling retailers not to sell them - that’s illegal. But for them to say “we will only put co-marketing and engineering $$ behind Nvidia Exclusive brands - that’s SMART.
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It is not all about the marketing money and engineering support as much as Nvidia can hold back chips for making video cards. Nvidia can punish for non compliance of GPP. That sits ok with you?
 
dgingeri said:
The way I read it, manufacturers are free to simply start up a new gaming brand specifically for Geforce products and continue to have their existing brands kept aligned with other products. As an example, Asus could simply make a new gaming brand, say RoG GeForceWorks, and have all their Nvidia products go there while keeping their Republic of Gamers products separate from Geforce, with its full integrity, and still have Radeon video cards with that brand name.
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I swear, I think most people these days have zero reading comprehension.

Here's a cartoon, maybe you can get it when you "read" it.

q8ppacyag3n01-jpg.jpg
 
Rathor said:
I didn’t say it wasn’t FPS competitive - particularly in a game made for AMD like FC.
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No I guess you are saying... due to mining and AMD releasing GPUs that are better suited to mining. Nvidia deserves to take over their customers brands.

Yes we all get it buying AMD cards right now is a pain in the rear cause the mining craze has driven their street price up well over their MSRP. Nvidias cards are sub par for mining its not just that 8gb is required... its that they are better compute cards and can actually do more math while undervolted which sounds stupid yet is true.

So yes today this move isn't really going to effect gamers a ton at the moment. Cause yes we all know the store is going to have 1060s 1070s 1080s on the shelf... and AMD if they are on the shelf at all are going to be priced higher then they should be. However what about 6 months from now. If AMD releases a navi part that gives you 1080 performance at a 1060 price point... you will want to buy a decent one from a decent AIB that you know and love. Those of us around here will do just that. However AMD isn't making the real money of (semi)educated geeks... the make it off the masses. For the PC gaming masses those brand names matter >.<
 
jwcalla said:
There could be all kinds of reasons for that. There could just be more cards under the gaming brand umbrella. They could be marketed better. They might be objectively better cards (cooling, etc.). They might have more distribution outlets.
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They could be covered in unicorn farts that draw people in! Hate to tell you this, most people upgrade GPUs to play games. And keep this a secret between you and I....they buy the "gaming" video card. Metrics have also shown that amount of VRAM displayed on the box is a big factor in purchase decisions too, but what do I know.
 
DukenukemX said:
The thing is, why GPP? Nvidia has dominated the market for so long, and yet GPP came out of left field. This has to be a repsonse to something that is going to change the market. One that'll fuck Nvidia over real good. Something like Kaby Lake G. That and Intel plans to enter the GPU market as well.

Yea it'll fuck AMD in the graphics card market, but it'll do much more damage in the laptop market.
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I think Kaby Lake-G is a big part of this, because it gives AMD the tech to drop their mobile graphics platform onto those two unused dies on Threadripper. Plus, if what I think is true (that AMD has something up their sleeve that's gonna bitch-slap nVidia in the graphics department), then what nVidia is trying to do is prevent that from coming out, and cut AMD off at the knees before they can do any damage. Problem is, the only way they see to do that is through illegal and immoral means.
 
Aireoth said:
Tell that to General Electric.
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What monopoly do they have??

Try talking to IBM, Xerox, Kodak, and even Microsoft. And there's hosts of others that, once they dominated a market, lost all incentive to continue to innovate, to the point where their businesses collapsed, and others moved in and filled the gaps.
 
jwcalla said:
NVIDIA tried to license x86 many, many years ago and Intel told them to pound sand. They wouldn't even allow a translation technology to emulate x86.

Intel has used its monopoly power to prevent NVIDIA from entering the IGP / APU market, which is a critical market to be in for laptop sales.

Not that anybody here has expressed much concern about that monopoly.

That's why I don't care what NVIDIA does at this point. Let them pound the competition into dust. The competition hasn't been playing fair for years, and payback's a bitch.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of Intel, either, for their own nonsense they pulled. It's the entire reason we still don't get equally specced laptops with AMD processors.

nV has long been the bully in this industry. They never want to play with the other children at recess and when something doesn't go their way, not only do they take their ball and go home, but then they throw a tantrum about it. Who here remembers when Windows 7 came out and someone discovered "Hey! You can now run two different vendors graphics cards at the same time and not have any issues! I'm using my higher performing Radeon for graphics with a low end nV card for PhysX!" and nVidia wasn't going to have any of that, no sir. Didn't take long before they cooked up some drivers to block PhysX from working when there was an AMD GPU installed.

nVidia is what I equate to a spoiled rich kid who likes to bully everyone else, and because their daddy owns the town's claim to fame, no one punishes the brat for his antics. Same reason Intel got away with their bullying for so long. :\
 
Shop_vac said:
I'm actually conflicted about this. I absolutely loathe intel (though i use a 6850k), and couldn't care less what they were able or not able to do. AMD seems to be collateral damage, and that's sad, but intel has shitstormed on nvidia's parade for years.

If nvidia ever got to make x86...
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You shouldn't be conflicted at all. Just ask yourself this question, "Is this good for me, the consumer?" the answer is no. Seems pretty cut and dry to me
 
Rathor said:
There is no antitrust issue. Nvidia has the right to control their branding. The put a lot of $$ into co-marketing - and it is unfair for AMD to get a free ride on Nvidia marketing dollars. AMD can work with OEMs to make their own brands and spend its own money promoting them.

You do realize Nvidia has the right NOT to sell it product to an OEM at all - right? What do you say about Sapphire and Powercolor and Others being “AMD ONLY”? Is that illegal?
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But they can't take over someone else's branding for their own. That's like me walking into your house and claiming your wife for mine.

If nVidia doesn't want Asus to buy their stuff, they don't have to sell it to them, true. But that's cutting off nVidia's nose to spite it's face: Asus is the actual MANUFACTURER of the video cards, that nVidia supplies ONLY the GPU chip itself; plus, they build some of the best and longest-lasting cards out there; THEREFORE if nVidia loses Asus as a manufacturer, they lose a metric fuckton of income.

nVidia SHOULD know this, but someone in the ivory tower has decided to try ice skating uphill... and that someone should get sacked for this.
 
IKV1476 said:
Nvidia did not create ROG, Asus did. And Asus put both Nvidia and AMD video cards inside that brand. And they have been markeing that way for years.
Now Nvidia comes along and tells Asus ROG belongs to Nvidia, not you, Asus.
The only brand that belongs to Nvidia is GeForce, but they are flexing their market share and trying to take was is not theirs.

And if Nvidia was such a good little boy in all this why are they so silent on this issue, as shit hits the fan? If what Kyle has reported is false Nvidia would be all in our faces explaining things. Instead they act like they have never heard of GPP.
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(I wish I could get the author to sign this...)
 
Chaos Machine said:
You shouldn't be conflicted at all. Just ask yourself this question, "Is this good for me, the consumer?" the answer is no. Seems pretty cut and dry to me
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I can say without the shadow of a doubt I don't need to purchase an Intel cpu. You don't mean that though.

I think Intel is a great threat to consumers, because they're actively anti-consumer. Not anti-competitive, anti consumer. They don't even see the consumers, it's all dollar signs like the matrix.

But they make good hardware and it's sometimes affordable, so double standards exist.
 
Inacurate said:
Words matter, as does context.

If ROG is the gaming brand for ASUS, then Nvidia's statement of 'gaming brand aligned exclusively' is the beat around the bush way of vaguely, yet very specifically, saying ASUSs' gaming brand must align only with Nvidia products.

The statement in question is cherry picked from an entire agreement, so WE have no context unless we can read every word and exception.

But as presented, if ASUS were to create and market ANOTHER gaming brand, that too would be against the alleged GPP agreement.
The 'gaming brand' phrase is at the crux of the GPP, along with the context in which it was stated.
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I don't want to assume anything and you shouldn't either. Not out of interest to parties involved, but just out of the neccesesity of due process. You're apt to be just as wrong as right.
 
Shop_vac said:
I feel like this is a game of semantics.

"The gaming brand" as a statement doesn't qualify already established branding. Your statement sounds nefarious, and is highly suggestive. AIB and OEM are victimized by your account. I think they're willing accomplices, and if they are, it means they have a say in the matter.

The devil is in the details.

I also appreciate you standing up to big money in the interest of the people. That's hugely commendable, and I know your integrity is sound. I just don't think this says what you think it says.
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Yeah, I am pretty sure I am not clear either, especially after talking to all the AIBs, OEMs, and NVIDIA about it. /s Jeezus dude, it is not like I just read an email and wrote the article, I researched this and interviewed people for WEEKS. But surely after the movements we have seen in branding in the market, the silence from NVIDIA, you can still doubt all you like. It is your prerogative. It is quite possible that NVIDIA backs off with the OEMs since they have given resistance, just like I wrote previously.
 
Big_Rig_Stig said:
But they can't take over someone else's branding for their own. That's like me walking into your house and claiming your wife for mine.

If nVidia doesn't want Asus to buy their stuff, they don't have to sell it to them, true. But that's cutting off nVidia's nose to spite it's face: Asus is the actual MANUFACTURER of the video cards, that nVidia supplies ONLY the GPU chip itself; plus, they build some of the best and longest-lasting cards out there; THEREFORE if nVidia loses Asus as a manufacturer, they lose a metric fuckton of income.

nVidia SHOULD know this, but someone in the ivory tower has decided to try ice skating uphill... and that someone should get sacked for this.
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Sure they can. In fact they just did. The Top guys at the OEMs realize AMD is barely 10% of their business and have gladly decided to give those brands to Nvidia for continued access to co-marketing $$ and engineering help . AMD can spend their own $$ building new brands. No more freeloading off Nvidia.

The people that have a problem with this are generally long term AMD fan boys and people that were already Nvidia haters to begin with. This includes the people at Asus etc... that Kyle is “talking to”. Talk to the CEO not some ananomyous source that’s probably just a low level manager that is an AMD fanboy.
 
Big_Rig_Stig said:
I think Kaby Lake-G is a big part of this, because it gives AMD the tech to drop their mobile graphics platform onto those two unused dies on Threadripper. Plus, if what I think is true (that AMD has something up their sleeve that's gonna bitch-slap nVidia in the graphics department), then what nVidia is trying to do is prevent that from coming out, and cut AMD off at the knees before they can do any damage. Problem is, the only way they see to do that is through illegal and immoral means.
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LOL. It’s already been stated Navi will target the 1080 because 7nm is a new node. You will get NOTHING out of RTG till 2020 at best.
 
Rathor said:
Sure they can. In fact they just did. The Top guys at the OEMs realize AMD is barely 10% of their business and have gladly decided to give those brands to Nvidia for continued access to co-marketing $$ and engineering help . AMD can spend their own $$ building new brands. No more freeloading off Nvidia.

The people that have a problem with this are generally long term AMD fan boys and people that were already Nvidia haters to begin with. This includes the people at Asus etc... that Kyle is “talking to”. Talk to the CEO not some ananomyous source that’s probably just a low level manager that is an AMD fanboy.
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missed.gif
 
ChadD said:
No I guess you are saying... due to mining and AMD releasing GPUs that are better suited to mining. Nvidia deserves to take over their customers brands.

Yes we all get it buying AMD cards right now is a pain in the rear cause the mining craze has driven their street price up well over their MSRP. Nvidias cards are sub par for mining its not just that 8gb is required... its that they are better compute cards and can actually do more math while undervolted which sounds stupid yet is true.

So yes today this move isn't really going to effect gamers a ton at the moment. Cause yes we all know the store is going to have 1060s 1070s 1080s on the shelf... and AMD if they are on the shelf at all are going to be priced higher then they should be. However what about 6 months from now. If AMD releases a navi part that gives you 1080 performance at a 1060 price point... you will want to buy a decent one from a decent AIB that you know and love. Those of us around here will do just that. However AMD isn't making the real money of (semi)educated geeks... the make it off the masses. For the PC gaming masses those brand names matter >.<
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AMD doesn’t make real money - period. They are barely EPS positive. And while AMDs top Navi offers 1080 performance for $250 (before mining tax) Nvidia will have a 2060 that offers that and a 2080 that beats a 1080ti and a 2070 somewhere in between.
 
Spidey329 said:
Yes, those are just the guys you want to run an Anti-trust playbook against, the same ones that got hit with Anti-trust themselves.

What is nVidia so afraid of? They've been the leader in GPU tech for many years. Their brand and company can stand on that fact. Why do they feel the need to do some of these shady tactics? It seems almost systemic at this point and nVidia might want to think about clearing some house if this is what they're spending money and effort on. They're signaling that they're insecure about their future.
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Yes, but now is the perfect time to shut down their only competitor. From a business standpoint, it makes sense. Will it work legally? Not so sure. At the end of the day though, they're holding a huge market share lead and AMD doesn't currently have a whole lot of viable alternatives.
 
Rathor said:
Sure they can. In fact they just did. The Top guys at the OEMs realize AMD is barely 10% of their business and have gladly decided to give those brands to Nvidia for continued access to co-marketing $$ and engineering help . AMD can spend their own $$ building new brands. No more freeloading off Nvidia.

The people that have a problem with this are generally long term AMD fan boys and people that were already Nvidia haters to begin with. This includes the people at Asus etc... that Kyle is “talking to”. Talk to the CEO not some ananomyous source that’s probably just a low level manager that is an AMD fanboy.
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Sounds like you're the fanboy. Every consumer should hate this. Why you don't is beyond me. Have fun paying more in a monopoly market because your favourite company ever, Nvidia, said so...
 
Rathor said:
AMD doesn’t make real money - period. They are barely EPS positive. And while AMDs top Navi offers 1080 performance for $250 (before mining tax) Nvidia will have a 2060 that offers that and a 2080 that beats a 1080ti and a 2070 somewhere in between.
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So lets say your right....

What is it we are hoping for as gamers ? Really

The 1080 is over 2 years old now.... and if your right and Nvidia starts shipping something faster in volume in 4-6 months from now... it will be what only 2.5 years of Pascal.

How long do you think your going to have to use that 2080 before they release a 3080 if AMD decides screw this we can't even sell our chips in performance parts anyway. Lets focus on Radeon Pro, those SSG cards are making us money. And forget consumer cards.... we'll just sell our chips directly to mining companies.

I guess then what we are hoping Intel will come along and just produce gaming cards in house and ignore the AIBs cause they are locked down anyway?

There is no upside for gamers if Nvidia is allowed to pull this crap. Even if you are the biggest Nvidia fanboi in the world you have to see that. Without consumer gaming card competition... Nvidia is going to focus even more money on AI, and refresh their gaming parts every 3 or 4 years if your lucky.
 
Rathor said:
LOL. It’s already been stated Navi will target the 1080 because 7nm is a new node. You will get NOTHING out of RTG till 2020 at best.
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But the majority of the market is not buying 1080Tis. Perhaps you are because you care about E-peen and all that, but most people and OEMs are playing in the mid-range market. If Navi is competitive with the 1080 right now, and has relatively good power efficiency, couple that with Freesync and I would now have no reason to buy Nvidia. If I wanted the best in 4K, I would buy Nvidia, but I don't typically want to budget that much for a card. I play in the mid market, like most, so I don't care.
 
I think nvid learned last time that they might get a smack that at this point probably wouldn't even cause a flinch but meanwhile it took AMD years to recover the last round and if this crap continues it could set them back decades. That is, unless they fold altogether.

People who think all this is just rumor churning really need to consider how do antitrust/monoply laws apply when there's truly only one company available to buy from in a market. Most consumer industries have many, many, competitors. I welcome some viable facts people chiming in as to the 'rumors' implied by Kyle's and other sites to prove this isn't so for our GPU market presently. I've seen red drivers, green drivers. I haven't seen beige, yellow, or purple a$$ drivers for software or games.
 
I'd be mad (well annoyed) if AMD cards were not allowed to be sold as gaming cards, but we've already seen ASUS's AREZ GAMING cards....

...so now it looks like Nvidia is just making sure that their marketing dollars don't go to product lines that also host their competitor's products.

As someone else said, that's smart- smart business.
 
Nvidia’s GPU business did $8.15billion last year. AMDs entire CPU and GPU business did $3 billion - so let’s pretend RTG did $1.5 billion. That means NVIDIA’s GPU business is more than 5x larger than RTG. That means Nvidia is 5x more of the OEMs business and spends 5x more money on co-marketing and engineering support for the OEMs gaming brands.

What gives AMD the right to free load on this advertising and R&D spend? They can spend their own money to co-market their own brands.

Most AMD fans seem to think they have a right to “free stuff”. AMD sells its GPUs at BREAKEVEN. Nvidia provides the same performance for the same price while making a profit like good companies should. AMD fans think a Nvidia should give AMD free access to Gameworks - even though Nvidia spent $300 million and counting to develop them. AMD fans insist that free sync is better than Gsync - because it’s free. Notice a trend?
 
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