Backpage.com Shut Down by FBI

kinjo said:
Who the fuck are the victims. Person A. wants to have sex and is willing to pay for it. Person B. wants money and is will to provide sex in exchange for money. there is no victim in that scenario.

Now maybe, you are thinking of people who are forced into the sex trade by an outside party in some way, but that's not prostitution it's usually a form of slavery (and often many other crimes) but it's not prostitution. There are no victims in prostitution, stop conflating one completely non harmful activity with other unrelated activities in order to push your agenda.
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if you actually put as much research into why prostitution is not a victimless crime as you did your post, you would come to an entirely different conclusion

1. if the person is married = more often than not, the marriage is destroyed
2. STDs
3. Women whom engage in selling themselves are often victims of other crimes committed by the "john" such as rape, murder, assault, etc...

Need we go on?
 
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Kdawg said:
not few enough to matter.

sometimes you just have to apply common sense rather than looking at skewed data... Like Bill Maher says "I don't know for a fact, I just know it's true".

SNIP

I believe that with decriminalized or legal prostitution, MORE women will volunteer to be hookers. Right now, they're not doing it because they're afraid of being busted by law enforcement.

Women are already fucking random strangers on Tinder. Why not get paid for it?
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Yeah, sure, lets just ignore studies on the subject, and make policy decisions based on what we think is true. The whole point of the study I posted was to show that the increase in the number of women volunteering to be prostitutes when it is legalized doesn't make up for the increase in demand that occurs when men don't have to worry about legal issues when paying for sex. Just because you think that certain legal changes will have a certain effect, doesn't mean that effect will happen. There are plenty of examples throughout history of legal changes having effects that were completely opposite of what was intended. The famous case of the yacht tax in early 1990's for example, which ended up killing a bunch of jobs and costing the government more in unemployment that it made it taxes for example.
 
Accursed said:
As I stated in my post, I'm ok with prostitution, ie victemless consenting adults.
Go peddle your nontolerant Christian views elsewhere.
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Try again bud. I'm an atheist and this was not about prostitution, it's about sex slaves. There's a difference and if you don't get that, then the problem is you.
 
nilepez said:
Try again bud. I'm an atheist and this was not about prostitution, it's about sex slaves. There's a difference and if you don't get that, then the problem is you.
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Yes, and if we allowed prostitutes to be business people instead of criminals it would go a long way toward marginalizing the actual slavery. They didn't go after the slavers, they shut down the entire platform...and the Craigslist personals. All this does is push it further into the shadows.
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
if you actually put as much research into why prostitution is not a victimless crime as you did your post, you would come to an entirely different conclusion

1. if the person is married = more often than not, the marriage is destroyed
2. STDs
3. Women whom engage in selling themselves are often victims of other crimes committed by the "john" such as rape, murder, assault, etc...

Need we go on?
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1. Infidelity (a. occurs outside of prostitution all of the time, b. is not a crime, c. has nothing to do with prostitution (if people want to cheat the issue lies in the relationship)

2.Not directly related to prostitution, they (STD's) are a risk of having sex with a stranger for money but they(STD's) are also a risk when fucking someone you met on tinder. If you have sex with someone you are taking a risk but as long as the risk taking is consensual and mutual there is no victim
if I choose to go skydiving and my chute does not open I am not a skydiving victim, I am a moron who chose to jump out of a plane... and died.

3. If a woman (or man) working as a prostitute is raped, or murdered or assaulted then they are a victim... or rape or murder or assault not a victim of prostitution. If I go to the store to buy eggs and the cashier pulls out a gun and shoots me I am not a victim of grocery store egg sales; I am a victim of murder.


So yes perhaps you do need to go on with a more well constructed argument.

here is a good reference for where you went wrong. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause
 
kinjo said:
1. Infidelity (a. occurs outside of prostitution all of the time, b. is not a crime, c. has nothing to do with prostitution (if people want to cheat the issue lies in the relationship)

2.Not directly related to prostitution, they (STD's) are a risk of having sex with a stranger for money but they(STD's) are also a risk when fucking someone you met on tinder. If you have sex with someone you are taking a risk but as long as the risk taking is consensual and mutual there is no victim
if I choose to go skydiving and my chute does not open I am not a skydiving victim, I am a moron who chose to jump out of a plane... and died.

3. If a woman (or man) working as a prostitute is raped, or murdered or assaulted then they are a victim... or rape or murder or assault not a victim of prostitution. If I go to the store to buy eggs and the cashier pulls out a gun and shoots me I am not a victim of grocery store egg sales; I am a victim of murder.


So yes perhaps you do need to go on with a more well constructed argument.

here is a good reference for where you went wrong. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause
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lol is that how you rationalize it?

you said it was a victimless crime and I just showed you it was not. Please try again

oh, and I am just gonna drop this right here

https://www.courses.psu.edu/wmnst/wmnst001_atd1/Prostitution/facts.html
 
Blakestr said:
Not to soap box this but what are they supposed to do? Allow it to continue openly? I have no problem with legal prostitution but child prostitution. I'd take a scorched earth policy to that - as long as you can be CERTAIN you are right, you set a furious example of anyone who even KNEW anything. I'm talking deploy Doom Marine in there. At least some crazy Jihadists think they are doing God's will, these shitheads know it's wrong but still do it.
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The problem with scorched earth is that you've destroyed every resource that you, yourself need. As said already, by removing these avenues all it will do is push the sex trafficking trade underground and make it harder to actually stop.
 
Armenius said:
The problem with scorched earth is that you've destroyed every resource that you, yourself need. As said already, by removing these avenues all it will do is push the sex trafficking trade underground and make it harder to actually stop.
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I'll admit my ignorance here -- I don't really understand how child trafficking "manifests". I can see the wisdom behind keeping a website up so you could track the "big fish" and nail them. Great, we caught the ringleaders. But how does someone 'cut into" the power vacuum? There's not a cocaine manufacturing facility to take over. There's not a "field of kids". So if you get the ringleaders and then shut down their operation, how does it come back? I'm a bit like Peter in Office Space ..."Great, now how do we find money launderers?"
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
if you actually put as much research into why prostitution is not a victimless crime as you did your post, you would come to an entirely different conclusion

1. if the person is married = more often than not, the marriage is destroyed
2. STDs
3. Women whom engage in selling themselves are often victims of other crimes committed by the "john" such as rape, murder, assault, etc...

Need we go on?
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1- is not a valid argument against prostitution or whether or not it's a victim-less crime. Legal prostituion is not going to change whether a person cheats on their spouse. Cheaters gonna cheat. But sure, lets ban an entire industry (making it far more risky for women) because some shitheads can't control themselves.

2/3- Are only a problem in the current illegal/unregulated state of prostitution. Make it legal with regulations and those problems resolve themselves. Take a look at Vegas as an example.....
 
Biznatch said:
1- is not a valid argument against prostitution or whether or not it's a victim-less crime. Legal prostituion is not going to change whether a person cheats on their spouse. Cheaters gonna cheat. But sure, lets ban an entire industry (making it far more risky for women) because some shitheads can't control themselves.

2/3- Are only a problem in the current illegal/unregulated state of prostitution. Make it legal with regulations and those problems resolve themselves. Take a look at Vegas as an example.....
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to claim that something is a victimless crime there has to be no victims, ever
condoms do not prevent the spread of all STDs... Genital warts/Herpes comes to mind.

Nice try though...
 
YeuEmMaiMai said:
to claim that something is a victimless crime there has to be no victims, ever
condoms do not prevent the spread of all STDs... Genital warts/Herpes comes to mind.

Nice try though...
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That's the same risk you take banging pretty much anyone.... Regulating it like the porn industry with mandatory screenings severely reduces this problem. So would you rather stick it in some unknown person at the bar, or someone who gets tested every month or 2, and always uses condoms to protect themselves and be able to pass the next screening. Fail the screening and you can no longer work, so it behooves them to be extra careful and screen clients etc.

Also, prostitution isn't going away. Ever. So we can either legalize/regulate/tax it, making it MUCH safer for people working the job. Or we can keep it illegal/underground, which heavily encourages trafficking/underage prostitution, and is much harder for law enforcement.
 
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jojo69 said:
Yes, and if we allowed prostitutes to be business people instead of criminals it would go a long way toward marginalizing the actual slavery. They didn't go after the slavers, they shut down the entire platform...and the Craigslist personals. All this does is push it further into the shadows.
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From the article you didn't read said:

According to the DOJ, the biggest issue with these websites is that it facilitates sex trafficking for people who would have been to sheepish to pursue sex on the streets, especially to look for children.
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Or are you advocating for child prostitution?
 
kinjo said:
Who the fuck are the victims. Person A. wants to have sex and is willing to pay for it. Person B. wants money and is will to provide sex in exchange for money. there is no victim in that scenario.

Now maybe, you are thinking of people who are forced into the sex trade by an outside party in some way, but that's not prostitution it's usually a form of slavery (and often many other crimes) but it's not prostitution. There are no victims in prostitution, stop conflating one completely non harmful activity with other unrelated activities in order to push your agenda.
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You're capable of complex thinking. Use that capability.
 
Biznatch said:
Also, prostitution isn't going away. Ever. So we can either legalize/regulate/tax it, making it MUCH safer for people working the job. Or we can keep it illegal/underground, which heavily encourages trafficking/underage prostitution, and is much harder for law enforcement.
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That doesn't mean we can't shame whores as a society and dissuade young females from ruining themselves in pursuit of money via whoredom. Or we can keep pretending we are doing women a favor by encouraging them to become whores for easy pussy for ourselves and damaging society at a mass level. Your tolerance leads to insane shit like the "Slut Walk" where brainwashed girls walk around calling themselves "sluts" proudly.
 
BasicCandor said:
That doesn't mean we can't shame whores as a society and dissuade young females from ruining themselves in pursuit of money via whoredom. Or we can keep pretending we are doing women a favor by encouraging them to become whores for easy pussy for ourselves and damaging society at a mass level. Your tolerance leads to insane shit like the "Slut Walk" where brainwashed girls walk around calling themselves "sluts" proudly.
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Instead of creating an account here to post this, maybe go out and talk to a woman some time. It is a healthy experience, I promise.
 
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Biznatch said:
Also, prostitution isn't going away. Ever. So we can either legalize/regulate/tax it, making it MUCH safer for people working the job. Or we can keep it illegal/underground, which heavily encourages trafficking/underage prostitution, and is much harder for law enforcement.
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Except, as I posted before, studies have shown that legalizing prostitution increases the amount of human trafficking going on. When prostitution is legal, a lot more men are willing to buy sexual services; the increase in demand overwhelms the increase in women willing to prostitute themselves voluntarily, and thus there is a much larger financial incentive to traffic in women to meet demand. When prostitution is illegal, most men will simply try harder at bars/Tinder before they will go out hire a hooker; less money going to the sex industry means less trafficking.

It is also much easier for law enforcement to just arrest everyone buying & selling sexual services than it is for them to figure out if the woman selling them is doing it voluntarily or not; remember that between pimp-enforced drug addiction and threats against family members back home, a lot of the women being trafficked simply won't be willing to come forward and say they were forced. Get them into the courts and away from the pimps, and it will be a lot easier to send them back home.
 
dreadcthulhu said:
Except, as I posted before, studies have shown that legalizing prostitution increases the amount of human trafficking going on. When prostitution is legal, a lot more men are willing to buy sexual services; the increase in demand overwhelms the increase in women willing to prostitute themselves voluntarily, and thus there is a much larger financial incentive to traffic in women to meet demand. When prostitution is illegal, most men will simply try harder at bars/Tinder before they will go out hire a hooker; less money going to the sex industry means less trafficking.

It is also much easier for law enforcement to just arrest everyone buying & selling sexual services than it is for them to figure out if the woman selling them is doing it voluntarily or not; remember that between pimp-enforced drug addiction and threats against family members back home, a lot of the women being trafficked simply won't be willing to come forward and say they were forced. Get them into the courts and away from the pimps, and it will be a lot easier to send them back home.
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What studies?

Look at history and the opposite happens. When the government bans something, it gets left to the criminals running it underground. Prohibition and the war on drugs are some pretty glaring examples of how 'well' laws like that work. It's only really profitable for criminals when it's illegal. Make it legal/regulated with a safe environment for women who WANT to do this line of work (Despite what you may believe, they DO exist....), and it no longer becomes profitable for criminals to continue. Again, look at LV where it's been legal for a long time.
 
Remember raping a child isn't prostitution.

Child prostitution is still just rape of a minor.

Always funny people get those two things conflated.
 
5150Joker said:
Just legalize prostitution already. As soon as the baby boomers whither away and die, I bet we will see this change finally come about. That generation has really held back progress in the US.
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LOL! I find it odd your idea of making progress is to legalize prostitution. If your earmark for progress is that, then move to Nevada. It is legal there. Well, legal through licensed brothels.
 
BSmith said:
LOL! I find it odd your idea of making progress is to legalize prostitution. If your earmark for progress is that, then move to Nevada. It is legal there. Well, legal through licensed brothels.
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Yea, and how much sex trafficking is going on in NV compared to everywhere else where it remains illegal?..... Not really profitable to run a criminal enterprise in an area where patrons have a legal/clean/licensed/risk-free brothel to visit....
 
Biznatch said:
Yea, and how much sex trafficking is going on in NV compared to everywhere else where it remains illegal?..... Not really profitable to run a criminal enterprise in an area where patrons have a legal/clean/licensed/risk-free brothel to visit....
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If it is legalized here, fine, if not, fine. Would not vote one way or the other if it came up for a vote.
 
BSmith said:
LOL! I find it odd your idea of making progress is to legalize prostitution. If your earmark for progress is that, then move to Nevada. It is legal there. Well, legal through licensed brothels.
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My benchmark for success is the decline of Abrahamic religious beliefs holding back social and technological progress in the US that other countries have already made.
 
5150Joker said:
My benchmark for success is the decline of Abrahamic religious beliefs holding back social and technological progress in the US that other countries have already made.
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Well, our perspectives are in direct conflict with each other, but that is the nice thing about opinions. We all have em.
 
5150Joker said:
My benchmark for success is the decline of Abrahamic religious beliefs holding back social and technological progress in the US that other countries have already made.
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wait what? How is that holding back technological progress?
 
thebufenator said:
wait what? How is that holding back technological progress?
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Stem cell research comes to mind back from GWB's days in office: http://healthland.time.com/2012/08/...e-science/slide/bush-bans-stem-cell-research/

“My position on these issues is shaped by deeply held beliefs,” he said. “I also believe human life is a sacred gift from our creator.”

...

Experts say Bush’s policy hampered progress in the field of stem cell research by depriving it of government funding, and drove some of the U.S.’s best scientists to set up labs abroad. In 2009, President Barack Obama liftedthe restriction, making it possible for federally funded scientists to use excess embryos from IVF procedures to obtain stem cells for study.
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BasicCandor said:
That doesn't mean we can't shame whores as a society and dissuade young females from ruining themselves in pursuit of money via whoredom. Or we can keep pretending we are doing women a favor by encouraging them to become whores for easy pussy for ourselves and damaging society at a mass level. Your tolerance leads to insane shit like the "Slut Walk" where brainwashed girls walk around calling themselves "sluts" proudly.
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Are you seriously for real?

You really need to look up the reason why the Slut Walk was created.
 
Biznatch said:
Yea, and how much sex trafficking is going on in NV compared to everywhere else where it remains illegal?..... Not really profitable to run a criminal enterprise in an area where patrons have a legal/clean/licensed/risk-free brothel to visit....
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Really? Which legal brothels have 13-17 year old prostitutes? That's right, none, because it's not legal. And if you RTFA, you'd know that was part of the issue. And before you say that legalization would stop that, guess again. It's a problem in NZ and AUS and prostitution is legal there. Hell, it's a problem there with adults too. These are separate issues.

I think you'd find a lot of us, myself included, open to legalized prostitution, but sex trafficking is not the same. It's people force into sexual slavery and there's no reason why the owners wouldn't want to do that in places where prostitution is legal.
 
old topic but first chance ive had to respond:

Blakestr said:
Not to soap box this but what are they supposed to do? Allow it to continue openly? I have no problem with legal prostitution but child prostitution. I'd take a scorched earth policy to that - as long as you can be CERTAIN you are right, you set a furious example of anyone who even KNEW anything. I'm talking deploy Doom Marine in there. At least some crazy Jihadists think they are doing God's will, these shitheads know it's wrong but still do it.
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They are supposed to enact legislation to correct the actual problem. not force it underground and/or/by creating "feel-good" do-nothing legislation that does not actually DO anything at all.
I have no problem with hookers either. what two people do in the privacy of their own locations is up to them be it paid for by mutual agreed upon exchange or handed out for free. the problem is when you add "BUT THE CHILDREN!!" you have already lost. that is always "feel good" legislation that rarely does anything substantial except causing the average person to have to deal with a bunch of headaches.

and you cannot take a scorched earth policy to anything anymore. why exactly do you think we have the political climate that we have now? everyone using scorched earth tactics on absolutely everything they do 100% of the time and a refusal to enter true and valid political discourse.

as for people that do the wrong thing and know it- why dont we try enforcing the bazillion laws that we already have on the books instead of creating new ones that do little to address the issues in the first place?


the soapbox is now yours :)
 
someone make a new website plz i need my body rubs and massages locally im so lost ...........
 
harbingerofdoom said:
old topic but first chance ive had to respond:



They are supposed to enact legislation to correct the actual problem. not force it underground and/or/by creating "feel-good" do-nothing legislation that does not actually DO anything at all.
I have no problem with hookers either. what two people do in the privacy of their own locations is up to them be it paid for by mutual agreed upon exchange or handed out for free. the problem is when you add "BUT THE CHILDREN!!" you have already lost. that is always "feel good" legislation that rarely does anything substantial except causing the average person to have to deal with a bunch of headaches.

and you cannot take a scorched earth policy to anything anymore. why exactly do you think we have the political climate that we have now? everyone using scorched earth tactics on absolutely everything they do 100% of the time and a refusal to enter true and valid political discourse.

as for people that do the wrong thing and know it- why dont we try enforcing the bazillion laws that we already have on the books instead of creating new ones that do little to address the issues in the first place?


the soapbox is now yours :)
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Trust me, I get the dangers of reactionary/fire from hips legislation. They try it with gun laws all the time, does nothing. Same thing as a border wall, if you don't fix the underlying problems, it won't work. It's complex.

My issue is that you are dealing with legislation vs criminals who won't abide by it. So how do you legislate something that will stop it?
 
Blakestr said:
Trust me, I get the dangers of reactionary/fire from hips legislation. They try it with gun laws all the time, does nothing. Same thing as a border wall, if you don't fix the underlying problems, it won't work. It's complex.

My issue is that you are dealing with legislation vs criminals who won't abide by it. So how do you legislate something that will stop it?
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if i had that answer i would have already become the supreme overlord of the world. but what i do know is that this is exactly how you DONT do it.
 
Blakestr said:
Trust me, I get the dangers of reactionary/fire from hips legislation. They try it with gun laws all the time, does nothing. Same thing as a border wall, if you don't fix the underlying problems, it won't work. It's complex.

My issue is that you are dealing with legislation vs criminals who won't abide by it. So how do you legislate something that will stop it?
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By making the illegal market unprofitable with legalization/regulation.
 
I see lots of arguments in this thread that amount to "jobs should not exist because slavery is bad". Never understanding that mutual consent changes everything, from this, to normal jobs, to hobbies like racing, just because something has negatives doesn't mean many, if not most people will do some or all of them for money, or in some cases free because they enjoy it. What changes is consent.

They then side track into stuff about relationships etc. Let me tell you, lots of jobs are bad for relationships, ask me how I know. Some are full time travel, or long hours etc etc, some jobs result in death, hearing loss, blindness etc etc etc. but guess what? People who work those jobs feel the exchange for the money is worth it.

Being of legal nature also allows those who do have something happen to them from a client (which is because of a client, not the occupation), they would be able to report it and have that person charged, stopping it from happening more.

As for STDs, in a legal environment you probably have less chance of catching something from them than you do the normal bar rat. As these girls have a vested interest in being clean and servicing clean clients, as catching something puts them out of the trade. As medical billing, insurance and check ups are the biggest cost to those that work in areas where it is legal.

 
fightingfi said:
someone make a new website plz i need my body rubs and massages locally im so lost ...........
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Where you live? I've got some oils and lotions.... :p /s

There are plenty of arguments for and against legalization of prostitution. It's not all good, and it's not all bad. Just depends on what you value more (personal choice and freedom vs. safety of other people and themselves).

As far as the website - it's like anything else. Taking down a drug dealer won't stop drugs from coming into the country. But, it still needs done. Keep going after any and all criminal activity. Yes, it'll push things more underground, but it'll make it more difficult for others to get those services. It'll make it harder to fight, but it's better than having it out in the open. Just keep fighting...
 
Underage sex, trafficking, rape etc etc = all bad things.

The real reason the FBI did this is.... money. Yes, money.

Billions of dollars are lost (not collected) every year due to the fact that prostitution is not taxed from either end of the trick.

When myredbook got taken down (northern California prostitute ad page) there was much discussion about this. It was regulated heavily by the owners and they swear up and down there was no trafficking etc. It was about boatloads of money not getting taxed. (but same case, FBI claimed trafficking)
 
Biznatch said:
By making the illegal market unprofitable with legalization/regulation.
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Let's be clear, I think it's a safe bet we all agree child sex trafficking != prostitution. My understanding of backpage was that it also facilitated underage sex trafficking. I'm not sure how you could make it unprofitable since there is no cheap alternative you could offer to undercut the criminals
 
Blakestr said:
Let's be clear, I think it's a safe bet we all agree child sex trafficking != prostitution. My understanding of backpage was that it also facilitated underage sex trafficking. I'm not sure how you could make it unprofitable since there is no cheap alternative you could offer to undercut the criminals
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If it was legal, business would be opening up offering that service. Who would visit a shady unregulated place like backpage when there are clean legal alternatives?

And backpage wasn't created for sex trafficking, it was abused by people who were involved in that shit unfortunately. It's easy to make money if there are no legal alternative available.
 
nothing can get rid of underaged sex trafficking, as long as there is a demand for them.

This only cuts down on some of it, with the massive side effect that regular johns can't easily find normal consenting hookers to fuck anymore.
 
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