ManofGod
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2007
- Messages
- 12,863
So basically, this IS an anti competitive move and Nvidia is buying their way into this, glad you agree.
![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
Guys let's support AMD gpu, and boycott Nvidia, Asus, Gigabyte, MSI
- Thread starter holden j caufield
- Start date
So basically, this IS an anti competitive move and Nvidia is buying their way into this, glad you agree.
Ieldra
I Promise to RTFM
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2016
- Messages
- 3,539
ManofGod
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2007
- Messages
- 12,863
Thanks for finally agreeing that this is anti competitive, appreciate all the support you can give AMD.
Ieldra
I Promise to RTFM
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2016
- Messages
- 3,539
Thanks for finally agreeing that this is anti competitive, appreciate all the support you can give AMD.
LOL! So much decline that Nvidia has to respond to it in an anti competitive attempt to hold on to their market share, got it.
Why are you replying to me about the exact same thing in two different threads you dolt??? Seriously don't understand this, anyway. You can whine about it all you want, I don't see how this is any more "anti-competitive" than enforcing the exclusivity of a partnership with an AIB, which NV has done in the past. The crux of the issue is that if NV weren't in a position of power then they would have absolutely no leverage with this GPP. If AMD cards were available and performing well then AIBs would have no reason to sign the GPP. You're basically complaining that NV has better market share, better products and greater availability, otherwise the GPP wouldn't have legs to stand on.
Eh. How does this logic work really? If we rewind to a point when NV didn't provide said benefits/perks, and they propose a GPP style agreement to AIBs, would that be the same? You can't call it economic blackmail because the incentives were never there in first place.
You're also portraying it as a "you can't sell AMD products under your brands" whereas it appears to me that it's very clearly a "you can't sell AMD AND NV products under the SAME brand if you want the following incentives" which is not the same thing in my eyes.
AIBs are free to maintain existing branding for the AMD lineup, if they do not deem AMD GPUs worthy of such an investment then they won't.
NV providing marketing funds to AIBs is purely an extra, why is it unreasonable to demand that branding be compartmentalized such that NV's marketing money doesn't go towards AMD products?
Last edited:
Ieldra
I Promise to RTFM
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2016
- Messages
- 3,539
How do you reach this conclusion based on his post? These are genuinely bad attempts at baiting people, I don't understand how it's even remotely possible for you to think these kind of scrubby tactics are going to work...
Regardless of what your and other Nvidia bots opinions are, Kyle here and Linus both think this is anti competitive and one even called out Jang on it. Therefore, your continuous bashing of those opposed to this, for valid and good reasons, changes nothing. I guess you think Kyle and Linus must be AMD fanboys, eh?
Now this is truly an important tidbit because it perfectly encapsulates your warped reasoning. I disagree with someone, therefore I must necessarily think they are a biased actor ? What the fuck? Are you still in school mate?
I take it you weren't pleased when Kyle called Polaris a polished turd.
Also, nobody knows who the fuck Jang is.
Pic related, it's Jang according to google.
ManofGod
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2007
- Messages
- 12,863
Ummm, what? LOL!
Dayaks
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2012
- Messages
- 9,773
Whatever Jang is selling I'll buy five!
Please tell me you do not really believe this. Gee, "ALL" Amd has to do is make a new brand to go up against a fully established brand.
I don't think NVIDIA is so much afraid of what AMD will bring in the future as much as making sure that it dominates the market, preventing AMD from ever having the R&D budget to challenge them in a serious way. Its a good strategy given that it is exactly the same strategy Intel has employed for decades. NVIDIA is being anti-competitive, but not out of simple fear of a superior product. Success in business often has more do to with strategy than the actual products they sell.
You....haven't dealt with a games publisher yet.
May I also add that if anyone has dealt with devrel with both AMD and Nvidia, will pretty much know both are equally evil. Trying to paint one company as angelic over the other is just hypocritical.
BababooeyHTJ
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2009
- Messages
- 6,951
Actually, I didn't even think about that one. With amd supplying both consoles I'm sure that most optimizations carry over to their PC hardware.
Stryke1983
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2011
- Messages
- 271
AMD have been supplying the two main consoles for five years now. Even longer than that in fact, if you consider that the game developers had advance notice/access to the hardware. If most optimizations carried over I imagine we'd have seen the impact already.
IdiotInCharge
NVIDIA SHILL
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2003
- Messages
- 14,675
The hardware and driver stack is very likely too different between the two, given that the arch used and driver model are also about that old.
Last 3 rigs I built had Asus mobos and Nvidia GPUs, one had Asus mobo and Asus branded Nvidia GPU. Doesn't bother me at all and they are all three nice builds.
Asus Rampage V Extreme w/SLI TitanX Maxwells (EVGA)
Asus Maximus VIII Gene w/Asus Strix 1070
Asus Strix Z270i w/TitanXp
I don't get evangelical over computer builds.
Edit: Just remembered, I also have a MSI 980Ti in my email computer (MSI mobo), and an Asus 970 mini in my HTPC.
Yea, it's not so much evangelical as it is instinct, lol. My original parts purchase flowchart had AMD stuff, changed my mind at the last minute. I just don't like partner programs, very disingenuous.
Grimlaking
2[H]4U
- Joined
- May 9, 2006
- Messages
- 3,245
Here's the rub. Vendors that have a gaming centric line.. ASUS or MSI or Whomever just need a lets say minor change in box design for their AMD cards and their Nvidia cards. The cost in manufacturing I think would be minimal for the packaging differences. It's more of an annoyance to make sure they don't slap an AMD card with an logo that Nvidia is "paying" for.
You think Microsoft is king of the hill in PC gaming because they DON'T pay developers and assist developers in making games for their platforms?
You think Apple doesn't pay or offer development assistance to 3rd party device companies that work with their product? You think they don't assist Cannon and other manufacturers to best use their hardware?
Everyone does this.. some stick to open standards. (Dell for one for consumer grade hardware.) others pay out and assist in development for their target devices. Yet we don't shit bricks when that happens because it is how that business is done.
Do I LIKE that Nvidia is doing this with one hand while trying to say they care about consumers with the other? NOPE. I call BS. I never felt cared for as a consumer from Nvidia. But I don't buy their products to cuddle with either. NOR Do I buy AMD product to cuddle with. I want the best performance for my money.
The real threat here is people perceiving that the hardware is better in X because it is marketed in the fashion that they like. And that is a potential problem.
A solve would be to remove the ROG line and others like it, or have equivelant lines for AMD. Publish performance specs for both lines and go from there. Both companies should be flush with cash thanks to the mining craze. (boy if/when that falls over will they look bad.)
I'm not sure if what Nvidia doing is illegal per say. It is shady or else they would be talking about how great it is.
You think Microsoft is king of the hill in PC gaming because they DON'T pay developers and assist developers in making games for their platforms?
You think Apple doesn't pay or offer development assistance to 3rd party device companies that work with their product? You think they don't assist Cannon and other manufacturers to best use their hardware?
Everyone does this.. some stick to open standards. (Dell for one for consumer grade hardware.) others pay out and assist in development for their target devices. Yet we don't shit bricks when that happens because it is how that business is done.
Do I LIKE that Nvidia is doing this with one hand while trying to say they care about consumers with the other? NOPE. I call BS. I never felt cared for as a consumer from Nvidia. But I don't buy their products to cuddle with either. NOR Do I buy AMD product to cuddle with. I want the best performance for my money.
The real threat here is people perceiving that the hardware is better in X because it is marketed in the fashion that they like. And that is a potential problem.
A solve would be to remove the ROG line and others like it, or have equivelant lines for AMD. Publish performance specs for both lines and go from there. Both companies should be flush with cash thanks to the mining craze. (boy if/when that falls over will they look bad.)
I'm not sure if what Nvidia doing is illegal per say. It is shady or else they would be talking about how great it is.
Indeed, the most common case is soft drinks at fast food place, it is either Pepsi or Coke.
So I understand how someone could see this as "a history of trying to utilize tech that gives AMD cards a huge boost in performance", but I really don't think this is the reason behind it. I think the reason behind their engineering choices is that by "building" for the weaker card, both companies products will run the title at acceptable rates and you don't cut out measurable part of your consumer base. Build for the largest customer base you can because if you build for the other target, you'll cut out customers when they realize that they can't run the game well. It's not like people won't be talking about it if it sucks on AMD cards, and there goes a piece of your sales that you didn't need to lose.
You know that's why for years, Blizzard Entertainment built all their titles to run on the widest variety of platforms, so they wouldn't cut out potential sales.
I think it's a perception issue.
As for boycotting, well everyone has to make their own decisions. But I don't think the AIBs and OEMs have any say so in this so I think you'd be making victims of them and it's not their fault, they really have no choice. If you don't want to buy an NVidia card that's fine. But I think it's wrong to boycott MSI and Gigabyte, etc.
To me, this is centric. I don't buy AMD or NVidia, because I literally do not buy their cards, I buy from ASUS and EVGA. I think people forget how much of a distinction this is.
SixFootDuo
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2004
- Messages
- 5,825
The only way this situation is going to improve is not on the backs of it's loyal customers. While honorable for those of you that do make the sacrifice and stick with AMD it's not going to fix the problem.
Only AMD can do that.
AMD has to bring some serious performance to the table. Like right now!
I'll ask the question the same question that is on everyone's mind right now ... "where the hell is AMD?"
nVidia is only doing this because AMD is weak with video cards that just can't perform compared to nVidia.
Now, while very doubtful this would ever happen, if AMD was to release something that performed as fast or faster than the new 1180 / 1180 Ti then none of this would matter. Video cards sell themselves based of their level of performance, not branding, not marketing.
Only AMD can do that.
AMD has to bring some serious performance to the table. Like right now!
I'll ask the question the same question that is on everyone's mind right now ... "where the hell is AMD?"
nVidia is only doing this because AMD is weak with video cards that just can't perform compared to nVidia.
Now, while very doubtful this would ever happen, if AMD was to release something that performed as fast or faster than the new 1180 / 1180 Ti then none of this would matter. Video cards sell themselves based of their level of performance, not branding, not marketing.
IdiotInCharge
NVIDIA SHILL
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2003
- Messages
- 14,675
AMD would have a chance if they actually shipped hardware.
Though I must say I caught myself looking at 8GB RX5x0 cards the other day for my Linux box that has a FreeSync monitor...
Still priced retardedly for the performance. I'll wait. Maybe crypto will keep crashing.
Though I must say I caught myself looking at 8GB RX5x0 cards the other day for my Linux box that has a FreeSync monitor...
Still priced retardedly for the performance. I'll wait. Maybe crypto will keep crashing.
Alkaladur
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2016
- Messages
- 179
Who exactly do you think you are? Coming to this thread and making a reasonable post, what exactly is your problem? Do you think you can just stroll in here with your common sense and ruin this circlejerk? For the love of christ... people and their manners. Are you the kind of guy who walks into a mental health facility and starts telling all the patients that they're actually delusional ?
\
thebufenator
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2004
- Messages
- 1,383
Nvidia trolls are awesome
Usual suspects from the "I hate FuryX" threads I see
Usual suspects from the "I hate FuryX" threads I see
You're right, AMD needs to respond.
I don't thing they have that response, they can barely hold a middling position with low instock levels, their engineer left for Intel, and they seem to be putting all their chips in with the CPUs for now.
nVidia seems to have timed this GPP well, taking advantage of amds weakness.
Sadly long term this is bad news, no matter how people want to spin it. If AMD goes, we all need to be ready for Intel level hardware increases, ie no need to buy the kaby lake GPU, my Haswell from 2012 is doing just fine thank you. Is that what you all want?
IdiotInCharge
NVIDIA SHILL
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2003
- Messages
- 14,675
I'll spin it as good news: this is AMD's 'get off your ass or become irrelevant in the GPU market' wake up call. I only hope that it isn't too late.
Better products come from technological breakthroughs and the willingness and ability to bring those advances to market. They come from a need or a lacking market that has room for something new in it. Necessity really is the mother of invention. It's a far more complex issue than you make it out to be. ArtX was a company no one had heard of as was NexGen Systems. Yet, these companies are what allowed ATi and AMD to compete with NVIDIA and Intel on any level despite the massive difference in cash flow, branding and size. It was at these times that brand recognition and anit-competitive practices had to be employed by NVIDIA and Intel respectively. Many companies came from out of no where to dominate their industries. 3DFX, NVIDIA, etc. are all examples of this. There is no reason to think it couldn't happen again at some point in the future. The anti-competitive practices aren't good for the industry, but are inevitable in any free, albeit somewhat regulated market.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Never underestimate AMD's ability to operate at a loss. It's done it for much of the last two decades. It's really something to behold. Doom and gloom has been predicted for them many times over and it hasn't happened.
Nonsense. Branding isn't trivial. ROG has been known as ASUS' flagship brand for over 10 years now. It's a brand the company has spent millions of dollars on and not being able to sell AMD cards under that banner hurts AMD. It's as anti-competitive as you can get. ASUS, if true signed on the dotted line because it had no choice. I already explained this earlier. If a companies GPU sales are 70% NVIDIA and 30% AMD, the GPP is a necessary evil. NVIDIA helps pay for your marketing and not going with GPP may even get your company placed on the back burner for GPU allocation. So either they bolster that 70% of CPU sales to try and make up for the 30% of sales they'll lose under that brand, or watch that 70% get cut in half or worse.
Investing in new branding or dropping down to standard branding for AMD cards hits them in the profit margin of those 30% of total sales because now they have to reinvest in marketing those cards under a new umbrella. That's also a hard sell when AMD cards aren't selling in huge numbers due to disparate performance compared to NVIDIA cards. Even though the blind taste test usually wouldn't yield any difference without an FPS counter at most resolutions, gamers don't care. We want the best performance and won't lose out on it without a massive price break to compensate for it. Sometimes it's not even about the gaming experience. It's about ego and having a system that's faster than what your buddy has. Not every justification for one card or another applies every time, but there are many reasons why AMD is in a bad position right now and NVIDIA is doing what it can to capitalize on the situation.
I found that confusing as well. You'd think he'd have read that part.
It is normal. I've indicated it many times. It happens a lot more than people realize and in many industries. It's something that happens in the automotive and retail worlds all the damn time.
Last edited:
M76
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2012
- Messages
- 14,030
Of course I didn't mean that the only thing that makes better products is competition. But competing for the market is easier with better more "competitive" products. Anti competitive practices are a symptom of the market system, but that's a much bigger and broader topic that is not relevant to this thread.
What you're talking about are game changers. There is no reason to think that it won't happen again, as there is no reason to think that will happen in the foreseeable future either. I don't know how is that relevant to nvidia taking possession of their partners brands in less than ethical ways.
I don't see what is confusing about that. If you don't sign up to GPP as an AIO you can close shop (stop selling cards built around NV), because you'll be at such a disadvantage compared to those that did sign up. Your products will be late to market, and/or less robust, and also more expensive, or you'll make a smaller profit on them.
Care to show an example of that? I don't know about anything even similar. Creating a new brand in partnership doesn't count. Only when a company alters the terms of a long standing cooperation in such a one-sided manner.
NVIDIA is banking on it not happening in the foreseeable future. That's one reason why you engage in anti-competitive practices. It cuts the legs out from under their primary competitor, even though ATI and later AMD never really challenged them regarding sales and profits. The GPP is designed to hurt AMD and strengthen its own market position. I've already said this.
This isn't a viable option. Yes, ASUS could close up its NVIDIA graphics card business or opt out of the GPP. However, doing so would greatly reduce the companies revenue. Its a publicly traded company and the people at the top and ultimately the shareholders would never stand for such a stupid decision. A moral high ground doesn't equal profits and dividends. It never has. I'd say these companies are being put in a tough spot but there is nothing tough about it. You sign up for the GPP or you lose marketing contributions from NVIDIA and potentially lose GPU allocation. Not selling NVIDIA hardware also weakens the brands that currently sell NVIDIA hardware.
I'm probably not too far off on the 70/30 split between NVIDIA and AMD. It makes no sense to castrate 70% or more of your GPU sales. Yes, the 30% or less that's made up of AMD GPUs will take a hit, but that's far more manageable than losing that bigger chunk of NVIDIA based sales.
Jesus Christ......do people not actually read these threads anymore? I've already cited examples of this. I was very clear on how this happens in the computer industry and in retail markets in general. I am NOT doing it again for the ADD crowd or post skimmers.
I may not have been clear on how this is done in the automotive world so I will get into this topic a bit. There is a great "Adam Ruins Everything" episode on the practices of the car industry. The dealer network has anti-competitive practices that allow for localized monopolies. It's allowed families to basically become dynasties in the business and prevent new blood from coming into it. You can't just decide to open up a new Chevrolet Dealership in a network that's filled with dealerships already. You can't even sell cars of your own design in certain areas or states if you refuse to be part of that network. Tesla found this out the hard way. If you sell GM vehicles in one dealership, you can't sell Fords as well. This restriction is somewhat relaxed with some brands and in more rural areas but generally holds true. The vehicle brands also have you buy the short hairs in terms of what you sell and how much of a given product you are allocated.
M76
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2012
- Messages
- 14,030
Whoever doubted the goal? Do you always have to assert a disagreement where none exists?
FFS Case and point for the above. Of course it's not a viable option. That's why the only option is to sign up for GPP.
Sorry, I don't have time to read hundreds of posts, you replied to me, don't be offended if I don't read all your other posts in the thread automatically that weren't addressed at me.
Oh the land of the free. In the EU they'd be shut down faster than they can count the money their cartel makes for them. It is common practice here for the same showroom to sell multiple brands next to each other. Most dealerships will even sell used cars from competing brands that their customers exchanged for new cars on their own grounds.
Anyway as I said it's not the same thing. Having a non-compete from the get go is one thing. But selling both products for years under your name, then one of them saying you must dump the other to continue selling mine that's what is happening here.
Gideon
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2006
- Messages
- 3,548
There is quite a bit to how the automotive world works, there are very specific laws that actually make it very difficult to open or run a dealership the way you want to and most agreements put a ton of power into the manufactures hands. Yes Tesla did find out that dealer networks were required in quite a few states, without them they cant sell direct to the public and with them they cant sell direct to the public, they must go through the dealer network. You only need to look at Tucker automobiles to see just how difficult it is to start a new car company as well, you wont be getting a warm welcome from the industry, Tesla is trying but they have yet to turn a profit. Auto industry is fun world with many secret and not so secret agreements and a certain amount of collusion that the government is quite ok with. This GPP reminds me of things I used to see in that industry.
Exactly.
My point is largely that other industries engage in behavior that's just as anti-competitive or even more so than NVIDIA's GPP. I'm not advocating it, but I understand it.
WorldExclusive
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2009
- Messages
- 11,548
A boycott would go a lot smoother if AMD had a 1080Ti competitor.
Alkaladur
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2016
- Messages
- 179
https://videocardz.com/75783/nvidia-gpp-meet-asus-arez-radeon-series
AREZ
You mean Vega 64 in techspot's review of FC5 using the canned benchmark? 1080Ti performance right there man
Kyle's testing doesn't agree with it, neither do the german websites, but they're lying.
AREZ
You mean Vega 64 in techspot's review of FC5 using the canned benchmark? 1080Ti performance right there man
Kyle's testing doesn't agree with it, neither do the german websites, but they're lying.
Last edited:
Dayaks
[H]F Junkie
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2012
- Messages
- 9,773
https://videocardz.com/75783/nvidia-gpp-meet-asus-arez-radeon-series
View attachment 64901
AREZ
You mean Vega 64 in techspot's review of FC5 using the canned benchmark? 1080Ti performance right there man
Kyle's testing doesn't agree with it, neither do the german websites, but they're lying.
No one in their right mind considers a Vega 64 and a 1080ti as being on the same playing field when buying a video card. Especially on [H] where we compare OC to OC.
Alkaladur
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2016
- Messages
- 179
OutOfPhase
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- May 11, 2005
- Messages
- 6,575
"When everything is working" means not only that everything is working, but the competitor is clearly not working properly. Then, and only then, can we consider it a fair comparison in the land of Wishing Will Make It So.
But what's a forum without fans with double standards?
Krenum
Fully [H]
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2005
- Messages
- 19,193
Mission accomplished. Just switched over from an GTX 980 to a RX 580.