Google Could Owe Oracle $8.8 Billion

rgMekanic

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In the latest news from the battle between Google and Oracle ongoing since 2010, Bloomberg is reporting that the U.S Court of Appeals ruled Tuesday that Google's use of Java shortcuts to develop Android was too far, and a violation of Oracle's copyrights. Oracle was originally seeking $8.8 billion, though that number could grow as the case gets remanded to a federal court in California to determine how much Alphabet Inc. will have to pay.

I have a feeling that despite this decision, this case is still far from over. The article notes that ANdroid has generated more than $42 billion in advertising revenue alone, which puts a hamper in the "Android is free" defense.

“It’s a momentous decision on the issue of fair use,” lawyer Mark Schonfeld of Burns & Levinson in Boston, who’s been following the case and isn’t involved. “It is very, very important for the software industry. I think it’s going to go to the Supreme Court because the Federal Circuit has made a very controversial decision.”
 
The $42B in revenue is not directly from the platform, but rather from their 'proprietary add-ons'. Gmail, etc. Anyone is free to use the platform (ala Amazon and others) Google gets no revenue that is directly tied to the Java APIs.
 
I am completely baffled by all this. What parts are open-source, what is not and what does this mean for open-source now? Isn't Java a programming language, not a final product. Does this mean that any program based on Java is at the mercy of Oracle? As an example, If I make some small app using Java and distribute it as open-source and free, That's fine. But if it becomes wildly successful and I make billions from it, will I incur the wrath of Oracle?
 
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And didn't the previous CEO let them use it?

My bad. It was Sun's CEO. Then Oracle buys Sun and the fun begins.
That the problem we all should just run Oracle in to ground ban any and all there product and service we know why bought it.
It to bad that Google didn't buy Sun at the time it would save them a lot headache now and it would been truly open source
 
And what about in-app adverts? Those make Java calls plenty.

The $42B in revenue is not directly from the platform, but rather from their 'proprietary add-ons'. Gmail, etc. Anyone is free to use the platform (ala Amazon and others) Google gets no revenue that is directly tied to the Java APIs.
 
And what about in-app adverts? Those make Java calls plenty.
But they are suing about the platform, not the other add-ons. Think of it this way. Pretend this were in an alternate reality where both Lougle & Google exist. Lougle bought Sun, not Google. Lougle makes the android 'platform' available, just like Google did. Google jumps on it and adds all their cool wizbang stuff on top of it.

That is essentially the current reality of Amazon & Amazon Fire. They don't use all the android wizbang stuff like Gmail, Play Store, etc. Just the freely provided underlying platform.

If they are trying to make the claim that anyone actually using google's platform is liable, there are a ton of players in deep s*** if they succeed.

This is a pure money grab on Oracle's part. It would be disastrous for this to get upheld.
 
This is a pure money grab on Oracle's part. It would be disastrous for this to get upheld.
Since it was already decided by a three judge Federal Circuit panel the only potential appeals are to the entire Federal Circuit and the Supreme Court, which does not accept appeals from the Federal Circuit very often.
 
My company has some older applications built on Microsoft Java. We got screwed over on that one.. Fuck Oracle!
 
I need to dig through my old archives and find all the news articles I saved detailing Sun giving the non-profitable Java to the masses! I have yet to understand how Oracle has been able to get judges and jurors to believe they were somehow able to put the genie back in the bottle after it having been freed while owned solely by Sun.
 
Just more reason to eliminate Java use wherever you can. I mean the main reason is security, Java is the #1 security issue on client computers overall, but there's plenty of others, this predatory crap Oracle pulls being another good one. When you are looking at devices for work, look at ones that don't use Java for their management.
 
Sun sued Microsoft for adding on to Java and making that version only work on Windows. So, Oracle didn't ruin Java, they've being doing this for a while.

Also, Microsoft updated Java to make J++, they also stole Java to create a different product. If I'm reading the suite correctly, Android just blatantly added Java code to Android to make Android easier to code for. If this was the GNU Public License they would literally have to give all of Android to GNU for doing this...

I'm with Oracle on this one. Freeware does not mean free code, you still have to respect the license.
 
Sun sued Microsoft for adding on to Java and making that version only work on Windows. So, Oracle didn't ruin Java, they've being doing this for a while.

Also, Microsoft updated Java to make J++, they also stole Java to create a different product. If I'm reading the suite correctly, Android just blatantly added Java code to Android to make Android easier to code for. If this was the GNU Public License they would literally have to give all of Android to GNU for doing this...

I'm with Oracle on this one. Freeware does not mean free code, you still have to respect the license.
I think i get it, so you use it as is, but you don't get to slice and dice it, integrate it to your own software, and call it a day?
As to google not profiting from the plataform that is just absurd, its a where is the egg question. The plataform was made as a conduit for profiting from ads, that was the whole point.
 
I am completely baffled by all this. What parts are open-source, what is not and what does this mean for open-source now? Isn't Java a programming language, not a final product. Does this mean that any program based on Java is at the mercy of Oracle? As an example, If I make some small app using Java and distribute it as open-source and free, That's fine. But if it becomes wildly successful and I make billions from it, will I incur the wrath of Oracle?

What the problem is here is that instead of paying the proper licensing fees to make the programming language part of the OS and build the java run time into it, Google just copied enough code to not need Java to write and run Java code. So instead of Oracle's Java you now have something like Google Coffee (made up name) that can do everything java can, but doesn't involve Oracle. While you can code in Java for free you can't use embedded java for free.

so your dvd player if it supports Java has to pay them a little per device, if your fridge runs java they had to pay them a little per device, any IoT devices that might run java required payment of a little bit per device.... Everyone else has to pay, Google got around that by just copying the code (and admitted to copying the code to allow people to use java to code apps).
 
Working for a company that uses Oracle products and deals with them pulling a lot of shady shit, Oracle can go fuck themselves with a rotten piece of driftwood.
 
I work for one of the companies involved, my opinions on social media are solely my own and do not represent my employer's.

I find this case interesting as I believe it to be one of the few instances left where the internet as a whole views Google as a victim.
 
This is very definitely a money grab by Oracle. After they took over Sun, they started going on a rampage to get money for all the services Sun was offering for free. What Oracle is proposing here has far reaching implications, but in reality it will likely spell the doom for Java. Because of their Antics, many companies are already turning from Java and going back to straight C++. Also many browsers are completely getting rid of the Java plugin capability and only accepting Javascript and C++. There is software out there now that will take your C++ coded and simplify it to run directly on Chrome and it can translate it to javascript and run it on just about any browser.

In addition to this, Oracle's pricing scheme and structure for their services is quickly driving companies away from them. More companies are moving away from the Oracle infrastructure services using Suns VM and zoning technology and pushing it to cloud services such as AWS, Google Cloud, and Azure. In addition, more companies are replacing their Oracle DBs with other solutions, many of which are actually better for integration with Big Data systems because they are not as rigidly structured as Oracle.

Just more reason to eliminate Java use wherever you can. I mean the main reason is security, Java is the #1 security issue on client computers overall, but there's plenty of others, this predatory crap Oracle pulls being another good one. When you are looking at devices for work, look at ones that don't use Java for their management.

Umm...say what now? Java is not the security issue. The security issues comes in poor programming and using the outdated Java applet technology. This is just another example of how people take things out of context. Java is a programming language that you can build and compile securely. If we were to eliminate Java completely right now, most of the world would practically shut down, that is how widespread it is. As for Java applets and the Java plugin, that is already being phased out in most browsers. Most browsers now use Javascript rather than Java applets.
 
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The in-app ads are part of the platform.

But they are suing about the platform, not the other add-ons. Think of it this way. Pretend this were in an alternate reality where both Lougle & Google exist. Lougle bought Sun, not Google. Lougle makes the android 'platform' available, just like Google did. Google jumps on it and adds all their cool wizbang stuff on top of it.

That is essentially the current reality of Amazon & Amazon Fire. They don't use all the android wizbang stuff like Gmail, Play Store, etc. Just the freely provided underlying platform.

If they are trying to make the claim that anyone actually using google's platform is liable, there are a ton of players in deep s*** if they succeed.

This is a pure money grab on Oracle's part. It would be disastrous for this to get upheld.
 
So is this it? Oracle is stooped to being patent trolls?
Google should just buy Oracle and put this to bed.
 
My personal source for it would be my SANS instructors, but if you want a source online here you go.

I think you didn't pay close attention to what your SANS instructor said then... Here is a paper describing applets from a SANS contributor. Here is a brochure from SANS on their "Defending Web Applications Security Essential course, I direct your attention to 522.5 which clearly outlines Java applet security. If you look at their Developer 541, it talks about secure Java programming and it has all the same attributes as other programming languages.

As for that source, it is terrible and it part of the problem I explained above. Java is not a program, it is a programming language. What they are referring to, yet again, is Java applets. That is what you download the Oracle plugin for.

It is important to understand the difference, especially if you are working towards being a security professional. The problem with things like ActiveX and Applets is they try to simply running code for websites, but to do that they poke holes in the existing security infrastructure. That is why they are being phased out rapidly in favor of other methods.

EDIT: for more reference regarding this, you can see this article as well.
 
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I need to dig through my old archives and find all the news articles I saved detailing Sun giving the non-profitable Java to the masses! I have yet to understand how Oracle has been able to get judges and jurors to believe they were somehow able to put the genie back in the bottle after it having been freed while owned solely by Sun.
I'm sure there was millions in "campaign donations" involved.
 
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