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IRS Reminds US Taxpayers to Report Crypto Earnings
- Thread starter Megalith
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Riptide_NVN
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If it eliminates deductions then it would reduce complexity. For good or bad we are stuck with them. People have figured out ways to pump the economy and screw with it by providing deductions and are holding onto them tightly. We won't ever see a flat tax or a removal of deductions to any significant degree. A consumption tax would be the simplest and least unfair IMO and would be better if we could cut spending. The whole thing is a pipe dream though. Not gonna happen.
CPA once told me he has made a living for 20+ years because "this was supposed to be easy". We can have make believe land where everyone just takes the standard deduction however this isn't reality. It isn't easy for a lot of people for a variety of reasons.
Those of you who have crypto assets - check out bitcoin.tax. As a hobby miner it greatly simplifies keeping track of your payouts and their USD value.
DigitalisAkujin
Limp Gawd
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Lots of misinformation flying around here.
First of all if you mine crypto the IRS considers that taxable income as regular income (approx 30% tax rate) and it is at the time of pay-out from mining pool so if you mined 1 BTC when it was worth $1 you owe income tax on that $1 however because it's below reporting threshold you basically don't need to pay tax on the "income" from a long time ago. And yes you can write off all your mining expenses so that means your taxable income there is even lower.
When you cash that out you then need to pay capital gains on the difference just like with stocks, art, non-real estate property, etc.
So lets say the mining pool paid you out 0.1 BTC when it was worth 100 = BTC. You owe tax on $10. But since your mining expenses are a couple grand you actually don't owe anything since your taxable income is negative.
After that you HODL your .1 BTC till 1 BTC = 10000 USD and you sell it for 1k
You now owe 15% capital gains on the difference between 10 and 10000. So capital gains tax on $9,990.
This is ONLY for USA. Some exchanges aren't in the USA and don't deal with the IRS in any way.
Personally since I mined it all and my BTC wallet address is not known to the IRS I could go on vacation and cash out my BTC for cash at a local exchange in some other country. Few hundred bucks at a time. Pay for vacation expenses tax free.
Basically if I have enough crypto holdings to buy a house I'll end up reporting it and paying tax on it just so I can make that money usable for real-estate state side but otherwise it's just easier to keep the crypto as some nice side pocket change when out of the country.
By the way in Germany if you HODL crypto for 1 year you can legally pay no tax on it when you convert it back to fiat. An american passport these days is trash.
First of all if you mine crypto the IRS considers that taxable income as regular income (approx 30% tax rate) and it is at the time of pay-out from mining pool so if you mined 1 BTC when it was worth $1 you owe income tax on that $1 however because it's below reporting threshold you basically don't need to pay tax on the "income" from a long time ago. And yes you can write off all your mining expenses so that means your taxable income there is even lower.
When you cash that out you then need to pay capital gains on the difference just like with stocks, art, non-real estate property, etc.
So lets say the mining pool paid you out 0.1 BTC when it was worth 100 = BTC. You owe tax on $10. But since your mining expenses are a couple grand you actually don't owe anything since your taxable income is negative.
After that you HODL your .1 BTC till 1 BTC = 10000 USD and you sell it for 1k
You now owe 15% capital gains on the difference between 10 and 10000. So capital gains tax on $9,990.
This is ONLY for USA. Some exchanges aren't in the USA and don't deal with the IRS in any way.
Personally since I mined it all and my BTC wallet address is not known to the IRS I could go on vacation and cash out my BTC for cash at a local exchange in some other country. Few hundred bucks at a time. Pay for vacation expenses tax free.
Basically if I have enough crypto holdings to buy a house I'll end up reporting it and paying tax on it just so I can make that money usable for real-estate state side but otherwise it's just easier to keep the crypto as some nice side pocket change when out of the country.
By the way in Germany if you HODL crypto for 1 year you can legally pay no tax on it when you convert it back to fiat. An american passport these days is trash.
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Riccochet
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It would cost them significantly more to audit me than recovering the $16.89 I'd owe in taxes on my crypto withdraws. And for that I hope I get audited.
Lunas
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according to the new tax policy yes you need to refile for every year you owned it and it is treated as property.
IMHO they should be taxed at exchange treated as a good or item as then it could be treated as it had no inherent value itself but demand gives it value.
PantherBlitz
Limp Gawd
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To an extent it does. Flat tax proposals trade deductions for a smaller, flat rate. Of course, the real complexity in tax law comes from interpreting what is a taxable event, who is liable for it, etc.
Most flat tax proposals keep a standard deduction of some kind; so in your example a person with $30k income could ignore possibly all of his/her income and pay zero.
sfsuphysics
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and there is by far and away more taxable money being earned by the wealthy "elite" that doesn't go to buying necessities and goods than what is being spent by the majority. (translation a federal sales tax would benefit the rich and punish the poor)
Retronym
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How much trouble do you get in for failing to report losses?
There's always someone that bought at the top.
There's always someone that bought at the top.
Lunas
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This is actually the first time i have had that point brought up. Now what do rich people do with money besides hoard it... gas for the mercedes or hummer or plane tickets or fancy pens or whatever. Despite what you are saying they spend more than you think. Tank of premium gas here or there dinner at a 5 star restaurant, fancy pens, tennis bracelets, boats, cars, real estate. You are probably right about a lot of it but you are wrong it punishes anyone who spends money.
Absolutely false my friend.
All it takes is for one do-gooder to be in an exchange with a person. Do-gooder reports a purchase from you, you must have had a sale. Understaffed or no, if there is enough money involved to be worth assigning an auditor, then the seller is fucked.
Then what do the "rich" do with their money other than spend it?
As for the poor/middle class, that's why you exempt housing, rent, food, and used items that have already been taxed before.
You can also exempt other necessities if needed, like utilities and health care items.
This helps protect the poor and middle class from the tax, since the poor are spending most their money on essentials, while the rich are spending much of their money on extras.
However, the problems is that for every thing you exempt from being tax, the tax has to be at a higher rate.
A rich person buys a $100,000 car, a middle class person buys a $30,000 car, the poor person buys a used car. If everyone is paying a 20% federal sales tax, the rich person pays $20,000, the middle class person pays $6,000, the poor person pays $0. Seems reasonable to me.
The poor person lives in an apartment (no tax on rent), the middle class person cuts his own lawn (no tax on their own labor), the rich person hires a gardener & someone to take care of their pool, and pays taxes on those services.
Of course this doesn't work well when the poor person buys a $1,000 iphone
Biggest problem would be an increase in people working under the table to avoid collecting and paying the sales tax, but that already happens with people avoiding the income tax. The difference that that these people would have to pay the tax whenever they shopped at any legitimate retailer. Even drug dealers would end up paying the sales tax when they buy their hydroponics or other supplies.
The group this would be unfair to is retired or soon to be retired people.
They have been taxed on their income for decades while they where trying to save, and now they would be taxed when they spend their savings.
Of course they do. Look, as of about 10 months ago, the US was only responsible for about 3% of bitcoin mining where China was estimated at 60%, Georgia (Not the US State Georgia), 15%, Sweden 7.5%, etc.
That means these transaction and all the money moving around because of them are mostly happening overseas, not in the US. That means the NSA is going to be looking at it because it's happening over the communications channels acrossed the world. They look at everything else acrossed the world, why would cryptocurrency mining be any different?
Everyone in the US hears NSA and thinks it's about us completely forgetting that it's almost always about "them".
Besides, when government computers start talking to foreign computers, it's sure bet the NSA will be watching that.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...th-crypto-mining-malware-report-idUSKBN1FV0VO
https://cryptovest.com/news/louisia...s-for-mining-bitcoin-on-government-computers/
TripleAgent77
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i just hope to have these kinds of problems in the near future
The poor are spending most of their money on tobacco taxes that fund the CHIPS Children's Healthcare Insurance Program
See, it's the poor that don't quit smoking even when they are the ones who really can't afford it. But they are the ones, teeming in their missions that pay most of these tax dollars. Now most of the Federal Dollars go toward CHIPS which rich government loving people think is proper cause it helps pay the insurance on all those poor babies. Of course States use some of it that way, and cities do too, but these guys also use that money for other things, like putting up traffic cameras and other ways to generate revenue.
So the poor are simply trading one tax for another, and the tax breaks that you think they are getting are just going right around to pay for poor kids healthcare costs so rich people don't have to foot that expense.
Cigarettes used to cost less than $3 a carton and they are well up over $60 now and $50 of that is taxes. Even at a pack a day for one person, and married people often smoke in pairs, that's three cartons a month, $200, $400+ if your married or smoke more. How much do poor people make in a month?
Not good, Securities, which are an investment vehicle, ie ... property.
This is because they, the Government, does not want to treat cryptocurrency as ..... currency, and there are some very big differences in what this means to those who "trade" in securities as there are government stipulations on the sale and trade of securities.
I wouldn't touch them now, not unless I went through a brokerage account, (none are yet trading on the markets yet from what I have seen). No cowboy shit for me, way too much to lose.
So light reading here and here to put some perspective on it.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/6/1...al-us-regulation-securities-sec-cftc-congress
https://www.sec.gov/news/public-statement/statement-clayton-2017-12-11
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Yes they have, they have been ruled to be securities and not a currency at all. As such, it requires no special tax bill. The law is very explicit on the sale and trade of investment securities such as Stocks and Bonds. As for any money to make trading securities, it's just like all the other income you make, you should report it. If you don't, well everyone has to take their own chances.
No new laws were needed, on an Agency making a call on what cryptocurrencies should be so they know how they are to be dealt with.
Then what do the "rich" do with their money other than spend it?
As for the poor/middle class, that's why you exempt housing, rent, food, and used items that have already been taxed before.
You can also exempt other necessities if needed, like utilities and health care items.
This helps protect the poor and middle class from the tax, since the poor are spending most their money on essentials, while the rich are spending much of their money on extras.
However, the problems is that for every thing you exempt from being tax, the tax has to be at a higher rate.
A rich person buys a $100,000 car, a middle class person buys a $30,000 car, the poor person buys a used car. If everyone is paying a 20% federal sales tax, the rich person pays $20,000, the middle class person pays $6,000, the poor person pays $0. Seems reasonable to me.
The poor person lives in an apartment (no tax on rent), the middle class person cuts his own lawn (no tax on their own labor), the rich person hires a gardener & someone to take care of their pool, and pays taxes on those services.
Of course this doesn't work well when the poor person buys a $1,000 iphone
Biggest problem would be an increase in people working under the table to avoid collecting and paying the sales tax, but that already happens with people avoiding the income tax. The difference that that these people would have to pay the tax whenever they shopped at any legitimate retailer. Even drug dealers would end up paying the sales tax when they buy their hydroponics or other supplies.
The group this would be unfair to is retired or soon to be retired people.
They have been taxed on their income for decades while they where trying to save, and now they would be taxed when they spend their savings.
The problem with "sales tax" is it still hurts the poor and middle class more than the rich even with exemptions. A "sales tax" is against a person's consumption vs a person's income (as is currently the case). Outside of one-offs like expensive cars; this is assuming the rich will always buy expensive cars oc. With so many exceptions, too, what will be taxed or will things like cars be taxed at 100% which will prevent anyone from buying anything? Or is this a society where only the rich get 'new' thing and the middle and poor must do with hand-me-downs from the rich; trickle down if you will.
A sales tax is also much less predictable since it's driven by demand and not a more-static income. Many states were in trouble in the great recession because people slowed consumption which decreased the tax base. NYC on the other had stopped sales tax and taxes land instead - which is completely static - and did fine during the recession.
Here's some more reading on a fed sales tax proposal from the late 90's: https://www.brookings.edu/research/dont-buy-the-sales-tax/
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Jesus christ, so you're saying:
1. They retroactively want us to declare the monetary value of all cryptocurrency we own for the time it was acquired, going back however long we had it?
2. They want us to pay taxes on any transaction we used the cryptocurrency for (like buying a Steam game)? How is that declared?
Besides a 1040-X for 5+ years or so, do you know what form is used to declare it as property?
Better yet, are there any clear and explicit guides on this? Not just some general guide, but ones that lay out exactly which forms, which lines it applies to, etc.?
If only it was that simple.
illram
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I said no new law has been passed. The IRS or any other agency interpreting the rule is not lawmaking. Not sure what point in my post you are responding to or disagreeing with.
You said "no new law" had been passed, and that it was the IRS interpreting their rules.
That's not the case, the SEC made a ruling that cryptocurrencies, because they are traded, are securities and will be treated as such, everything else is just the other agencies doing their job per the SEC's guidance.
Lunas
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Thats is the beauty of it sales tax is not collected at the personal level it is collected at the business level not only would that be easier to enforce but it would require far less man power to audit. And the only time it would get down to the personal level would be such times as selling a car p2p. The only used items that would be exempt would be things bought person to person. And as for poor use the food stamp/ebt system to decide what all gets exempt Rent utilities and health care are already exempt. House payments should not be but that is covered by property tax and tax at sale.Then what do the "rich" do with their money other than spend it?
As for the poor/middle class, that's why you exempt housing, rent, food, and used items that have already been taxed before.
You can also exempt other necessities if needed, like utilities and health care items.
This helps protect the poor and middle class from the tax, since the poor are spending most their money on essentials, while the rich are spending much of their money on extras.
However, the problems is that for every thing you exempt from being tax, the tax has to be at a higher rate.
A rich person buys a $100,000 car, a middle class person buys a $30,000 car, the poor person buys a used car. If everyone is paying a 20% federal sales tax, the rich person pays $20,000, the middle class person pays $6,000, the poor person pays $0. Seems reasonable to me.
The poor person lives in an apartment (no tax on rent), the middle class person cuts his own lawn (no tax on their own labor), the rich person hires a gardener & someone to take care of their pool, and pays taxes on those services.
Of course this doesn't work well when the poor person buys a $1,000 iphone
Biggest problem would be an increase in people working under the table to avoid collecting and paying the sales tax, but that already happens with people avoiding the income tax. The difference that that these people would have to pay the tax whenever they shopped at any legitimate retailer. Even drug dealers would end up paying the sales tax when they buy their hydroponics or other supplies.
The group this would be unfair to is retired or soon to be retired people.
They have been taxed on their income for decades while they where trying to save, and now they would be taxed when they spend their savings.
With a federal sales tax go ahead pay people cash under the table they go to send money home over the border taxed when they buy anything but ebt qualified items collected...
if i remember the wording right they decided it was only transactions and accounts over 20k in value that were worthy of tracking...
You've got a point there and that's inheritly truw with Flat Tax however, I would encourage you to look at this - FairTax, if you've not done so before. I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on this as compared to FlatTax.
https://fairtax.org/about/how-fairtax-works
sfsuphysics
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Yes it punishes anyone who spends money, now lets take a situation of 2 individuals, person A who only needs 2% of his paycheck to live at his current level of (I don't mean lifestyle, I simply means the "basics", bills, property taxes/rent, food etc), so 98% of his take home ends up becoming "disposable" meaning he can spend it on whatever he wants, Hummers (or hummers), boats, whatever. Person B however is the opposite so 98% of what they make is required to live at his current level, and only 2% is "disposable". Now the knee jerk is person A will end up paying more in taxes because they'll buy stuff, which very well might be true, however when 98% of your paycheck is paying for stuff to live, including said federal taxes on it, then you're already losing, person A is taxed on the 2% he's spending and has the option on what to do with the other 98%, it could be hoarding the money, it could be tossing it all into an investment account to make more money, whatever.
Now this isn't an argument about making better life choices, or even vilifying person A, but it shows the difference between paying more of your income in taxes versus deciding whether or not you want to pay more in taxes based on goods/services you want. Now I never said anything about income levels, person A might have inherited a house and lives a simple life style, where as person B might be some Google exec that has very expensive tastes and is unable to say no to spending money, but the fact is most poorer people are going to be Person B, where as most people of wealth are going to be person A, so it really does push the burden of tax onto those who use more of their paycheck just to survive.
SilverSliver
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So if I had a few dozen BTC stolen years ago, would the IRS allow me to claim a loss?
And then there is the lottery, which is really just another tax on the poor.
Ever notice that most the places that sell a winning ticket are in poor areas?
My last post discussed why a 'fair tax' (aka federal sales tax) would not work:
The problem with "sales tax" is it still hurts the poor and middle class more than the rich even with exemptions like food, housing, etc. A "sales tax" is against a person's consumption vs a person's income (as is currently the case).
A sales tax is much less predictable since it's driven by demand and not a more-static income. Many states were in trouble in the great recession because people slowed consumption which decreased the tax base. NYC on the other had stopped sales tax and taxes land instead - which is completely static - and did fine during the recession.
Here's some more reading on a fed sales tax proposal from the late 90's: https://www.brookings.edu/research/dont-buy-the-sales-tax/
Another point on why a federal sales tax will never be enacted is that taxes are done once a year (yes i know it's taken out of paychecks but most don't "see" that). Also taxes are done right after elections for a reason: people will forget taxes for the next election cycle. If people saw they were being taxed with every purchase, taxes would affect elections much more which elected officials do not want.
I have to agree, the poor have no friends for the most part.
To the other poor, they are competition
to the middle class, they are a burden
to the rich they are invisible,
and to the politicians, they are a vote for the price of a nickle, anyone's nickle but the politicians'.
Lunas
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Except currently lets say person a makes 100k and person b makes 1k per month we will stick to percentages so as to not bring real costs of living into this so let us use the current tax rates person b pays 15% person a pays 25%
Now person a takes home 75k uses 2% to live pays 25k in taxes
now person b takes home 850 uses 98% to live pays 150 in taxes
now person c gets paid under the table 2000 a month pays 0%
person b lives on 833 saving 17 per month
person a lives on 1500 a month saving 73.5k per month
person c lives on lets say 833 saves 1167 still pays 0 taxes lets say they slip by get on welfare and food stamps (it happens a lot)
with federal sales tax
person a, b, c pay 12% sales tax on nearly everything they buy
person a takes home 100k
person b takes 1k
person c takes 2k
lets say they spend 40% of their income in taxables
person a 40k is taxed at 12% 4800 in taxes
person b 400 is taxed at 12% 48 in taxes
person c 800 is taxed at 12% 96 in taxes
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It amazed me how some people fail to understand this concept. All I can figure is they haven't had to be in a position where their income is so low that their disposable income margin is razor thin so every dollar counts. If you haven't had that perspective, I'm guessing it can be an easy oversight for some.
You've confused me, or else one of us has bad math. The top part I follow, the bottom part, you're saying they pay 12% on sales tax, but then say 40% taxables? Can you clarify what you mean?
I got some issues here;
First, throw person C out the door, I know he exists, sure there are people out there trying to get over like this. But you can't base a system of tax collection around people who don't pay. You have to set it up as if everyone is paying and really fuck over the ones you catch, 1st because the people that are paying will be happier, and 2nd because this is how you recoup more from the people who don't wana play the game, you catch a few and take all they've got..............Pirate.
Next, it's a fact of life for the most part, the more money you make, the more you spend. Furthermore, the more you're spending, the more you are supporting others and driving the economy.
So I have some new persons for you;
Person E, makes under the threshold for tax returns and doesn't even have to file. They paid what they paid and get no return but will pay no more.
https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tip...e-need-to-file-an-income-tax-return/L7pluHkoW
So keep this in mind, the rules just changed;
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/16/10-tax-changes-you-need-to-know-for-2018.html
Therefore, you're poor people who don't make but 1K a month, they will not be required to file a return at all.
Next, taxes are not a punishment.
Taxes are how we fund our government.
The government should not collect taxes it doesn't need for this purpose.
Please do not confuse Federal Income Taxes with State and Local Sales Taxes, they are not the same thing and they don't go to the same place for the same reasons.
I can't tell if you are talking about a "proposed" Federal Sales Tax, but I figure I need to point out, there is no Federal Sales Tax, doesn't exist in the USA.
Taxes in the US take on a very few different forms and each State has a different mix of how they collect what they need based on what that State believes works for them, and frankly, I'm fine with that.
There are "income" based tax vehicles, a few States do not have an Income Tax of their own, Texas and Florida are notables.
There are "Real Property" based tax vehicles where you pay for what you own, land, houses, vehicles even. States that have less tourism and smaller populations are usually bigger with this type of tax because if they taxed sales instead of real property they wouldn't get enough money.
But States that have a lot of tourists and a larger population can bring in a whole lot of revenue through "sales" and "use" tax vehicles. All those Snow-Birds are always good for the summer revenue collection boosting the old coffers.
So if you are going to talk about taxes in crude simple terms, you need to accept that there is nothing you are proposing that's even remotely workable because taxes just don't work that way.
There is no person A making 75K and living on $1,500 a year. Even if you owned your own home, your property tax on it would eat this in most states, if you lived in a State with lower real property tax rates then the state would have you pay this in income tax, or they would get it in higher sales and use taxes. And if you didn't own your own home, then you would be paying for it unless you were living in some low income subsidized housing. And in that case, 75K a year would make that impossible.
Now if I am somehow taking your post out of context with a discussion and I am misunderstanding what you're saying, please forgive.
Furthermore, my comment about taxes not being a punishment do not reflect my other belief, that our government is too big and does too much and therefore needs too damn much of our money, and of course wastes too much of it along the way.
Lunas
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Taxable as in not tax exempt goods or services like going to fast food cigarettes alcohol planes trains and automobiles.
Also I said per MONTH
Realistically
Person a: would spend 20-30% on housing and utilities 40%-60% on food and luxury items
Person b: would be required to spend 40-60% on housing and utilities 20-40% would be food and luxury
Person c: 30%-40% housing and utilities 40-50% food or luxury 10-50% gets sent out of the country to family.
1k is barely enough to live on per month low end of rent is 350 in my city add utilities that is 450 add food 650-750 total add in other costs average person will be razor thin check to check with no luxury or savings.
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Well this isn't necessarily convincing me. So you're saying people take home everything, pay 12% sales tax on essentials, 40% sales tax on everything else, correct? Under the same scenario:
Person A: Takes home 100k. Before, had expenses of $1,500. Now, his expenses will range from $1680 - 2100, depending on whether he's paying 12% or 40% on his expenses. His savings rise to $97,900 - 98,320. This is an enormous benefit for him compared to the old system. Sales taxes are basically meaningless to him.
Person B: Takes home 1k, before had expenses of $833. Now, he has expenses of $933 - 1166. His savings are up anywhere from $67 - in the hole for $166. If every single item he purchases qualifies at only 12% sales tax, he comes out ahead. But if he makes a mistake and buys the wrong brand of toilet paper that doesn't qualify, then he's paying more than already was. So, slightly better rewards, but significant risks. It sounds more like a knife's edge.
Person C: Same expenses as Person B, but he gets to keep anywhere from $834 - 1067. He's paying more in taxes than he was.
So Person A wins out tremendously, person B has a sidegrade and is still under a knife, and person C has to pay his fair share. Moreover, let's look at the tax income collected before / after:
Old scenario:
Total money collected: $25,150
New sales tax scenario:
Total money collected: $380 - 1,266
That's uh, quite a big difference. I think you must be leaving out some detail, because that looks like insanity the way you explained it. I guess under this scenario you don't have to worry about Person C collecting welfare anymore.
Lunas
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Wrong 40% of each persons income was spent on taxable items as in items not on the EBT buy list 12% tax was the tax rate on everything.
In the federal sales tax I am also eliminating federal tax return. For individuals.
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