DOJ and SEC Load Up to Go After Apple's Slow Old Phones

FrgMstr

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
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We all know that Apple was only slowing down its older phones to help protect its customer base from a declining, it had nothing to do with slowing your phone down in order to motivate its sheep to buy a newer faster iPhone. Seems as though the DOJ and SEC are fully buying that story.


SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - U.S. authorities are investigating Apple’s slowing of older iPhones, according to published reports.

The Wall Street Journal and Bloomberg reported Tuesday that the Department of Justice and the Securities and Exchange Commission are probing whether Apple violated securities laws. In December, Apple apologized for the slowdown after a blogger’s tests revealed the secretive practice.
 
Look, I don't care for Apple as a company, and I'm no lemming. BUT, who cares if they slow it down to prolong battery life. I mean, I just text and check email and make a call once in a while.. It's a damn phone!
 
Well what about when car manufacturers can push an update to your sports car to limit the max RPM it can achieve to help prolong life as the engine ages. Or they do it on your service visits.

It's time for your 60 thousand mile service visit.. we hope you have been enjoying your high performance car. Ok service is done have a nice day.. 340 dollars for the work done.

You call them up a week later. "I noticed instead of my car shifting at 7k RPM like it used to it's now shifting at 6.4k RPM. I thought it might be the car learning my driving habits, but when I went to some hardware forums I was told it's something I'll have to update my computer to fix. Did you guys charge me to degrade the performance of my car?"

"Oh we don't see it as degrading the performance. In order to keep the 100 thousand mile warranty we have determined that the maximum RPM of the vehicle needs to be reduced over time. Once you are at 100 thousand miles or more we really suggest you buy a new car to stay within warranty."

"Can't I just flash the car on my own and not have this problem?"

"Oh sure you can do that, but it will violate your warranty plan and any extended warranties you may have purchased."

It's the exact same thing. Sure taking away the high RPM ranges will help engine life and stress on the motor will be less.

But is that what you bought? A nanny state manufactured device?

The real answer here is to offer battery replacements or open it up to licensed service engineers to update batteries as they age so the consumer can make the call on if the battery life is too little for their needs or not.
 
Nukester said:
Look, I don't care for Apple as a company, and I'm no lemming. BUT, who cares if they slow it down to prolong battery life. I mean, I just text and check email and make a call once in a while.. It's a damn phone!
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Transparency is the only issue I have.

Anywho. Anecdotal story time. My sister is still using her iPhone 5s that’s around 4 years old. She has no complaints about performance or battery. It still works absolutely great for her.

Basically YMMV, which works with the flawed car analogy above. In that analogy they have no reason to limit the RPM besides they wish to do so.

To complete the analogy perhaps they analyze driving habits and certain vehicles are burning through oil faster and risking engine damage (so the engine shuts off at low oil pressure) their fix is to limit the RPMs slowing the loss of oil on all vehicles resulting in fewer engine shutdowns.
 
I do not like Apple, as a company. Not at all.

However, I think the DOJ and SEC may be out of line here.

The above analogy does not work. Here is a better automobile analogy.

Your car engine has detected excessive wear in the rings (blowby). In order to keep the engine running, the timing of the engine will be reset to reduce the amount of power the engine can make, thus prolonging the engine life.


Now, where Apple screwed the pooch is, they did not disclose they were going to do that. The only question for me is, "Does that violate truth in advertising?"
 
Nolan7689 said:
Basically YMMV, which works with the flawed car analogy above. In that analogy they have no reason to limit the RPM besides they wish to do so.

To complete the analogy perhaps they analyze driving habits and certain vehicles are burning through oil faster and risking engine damage (so the engine shuts off at low oil pressure) their fix is to limit the RPMs slowing the loss of oil on all vehicles resulting in fewer engine shutdowns.
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Seems to me that the point of the car analogy above was that the customer should decide whether to reduce the RPM or make changes in the name of longevity, and not have them performed without his knowledge or consent.
 
I still can not understand the decision to have a switch in the new iOS to change the behavior.

I understand the outcry over transparency. Fine, and I thought the battery replacement strategy response was really good. $30 for a brand new battery incl replacement labor by an authorized store is good. I think they should have stopped there and said "and that's it, folks."

Because now you can change the behavior, and people will get REALLY riled up when they realize that not slowing the phone down may mean crashes or reboots. That iOS change is nothing but a shot in the foot.
 
Grimlaking said:
But is that what you bought? A nanny state manufactured device?
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......you have pointed out the biggest issue that I have with the 'update'. It shows that a device that was fully purchased by the consumer still has ties to the manuf. What other things are decided is ok to be loaded to a users phone? NSA? Govt? Unwarranted peeking at a data stream?

Apple has been at the forefront of <seemingly> protecting users data from govt intervention - remember their refusal to crack a phone? But now it seems that they withhold the right to do it themselves.

WTF. Same, not the same, doesnt matter. Why not just let folks know instead of hoping that it wont be discovered.
 
lollerwaffle said:
I still can not understand the decision to have a switch in the new iOS to change the behavior.

I understand the outcry over transparency. Fine, and I thought the battery replacement strategy response was really good. $30 for a brand new battery incl replacement labor by an authorized store is good. I think they should have stopped there and said "and that's it, folks."

Because now you can change the behavior, and people will get REALLY riled up when they realize that not slowing the phone down may mean crashes or reboots. That iOS change is nothing but a shot in the foot.
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I agree they should of kept it in place, it is the Apple behavior after all that they dictate the user experience sans the user letting themselves decide.

I was fine with the decision and the reasons given but I was a little upset they weren't transparent about it.

When I went in to get my battery the process was painless, but they will make you go through a diagnostic test. My guy did a full test, took all of 15 minutes and it peeked into a lot of what was going on with my phone. After 2 years of owning the phone it was still in the "good" status, of course they replaced it anyways and my battery life is back to normal!
 
Madoc said:
Seems to me that the point of the car analogy above was that the customer should decide whether to reduce the RPM or make changes in the name of longevity, and not have them performed without his knowledge or consent.
Click to expand...

I’m not arguing that. Just to me the analogy was incomplete.
 
I feel the "fix" should have been disclosed and should have been a toggle.

I still have an iPhone 6. It's still plenty fast. Although I did replace the battery month ago.

Imagine if nVidia stealthily underclocked their GPUs some years after the release since they were seeing instability at the released clock speeds.
 
I bought stock in Apple in the early iPhone days. I sold some last week at a healthy profit. Glad I took a lot off the table - the stock will be in the House of Pain (queue Jim Cramer sound effects) soon. Investigations, poor iPhone X sales - not looking good right now.
 
Grimlaking said:
Well what about when car manufacturers can push an update to your sports car to limit the max RPM it can achieve to help prolong life as the engine ages. Or they do it on your service visits.

It's time for your 60 thousand mile service visit.. we hope you have been enjoying your high performance car. Ok service is done have a nice day.. 340 dollars for the work done.

You call them up a week later. "I noticed instead of my car shifting at 7k RPM like it used to it's now shifting at 6.4k RPM. I thought it might be the car learning my driving habits, but when I went to some hardware forums I was told it's something I'll have to update my computer to fix. Did you guys charge me to degrade the performance of my car?"

"Oh we don't see it as degrading the performance. In order to keep the 100 thousand mile warranty we have determined that the maximum RPM of the vehicle needs to be reduced over time. Once you are at 100 thousand miles or more we really suggest you buy a new car to stay within warranty."

"Can't I just flash the car on my own and not have this problem?"

"Oh sure you can do that, but it will violate your warranty plan and any extended warranties you may have purchased."

It's the exact same thing. Sure taking away the high RPM ranges will help engine life and stress on the motor will be less.

But is that what you bought? A nanny state manufactured device?

The real answer here is to offer battery replacements or open it up to licensed service engineers to update batteries as they age so the consumer can make the call on if the battery life is too little for their needs or not.
Click to expand...

Apples to apples comparison this is spot on. Essentially it boils down to this: who owns the hardware that you purchased? You? or Apple. I paid what...700$ for the iPhone so I should own that hardware and determine what I can do with it. Not Apple. If the slowdown was optional (and further sold as a 0.99c app increasing battery life) then this would be a different issue. Wonder if this will bake its way in or around the right to repair hardware act.
 
It's clearly false advertisement. There are a few ways to look at it but I think the most obvious is that they one didn't tell users that their phones were actually slowed and they were in fact not imagining it. This leads to more sales... c'mon why else would they hide this fact?

When Mazda sold cars that didn't hit the advertised horsepower, they had broken the law. That's a fact. What Apple did here is 10 times more serious.
 
My Ipad 2 runs like a piece of shit and all I use it for is web browsing/youtube...Why? I can really give a shat about a year or 2 battery on an new phone that probably dosnt need that new battery anywise...sigh I hate my ipad 2!
 
lollerwaffle said:
IBecause now you can change the behavior, and people will get REALLY riled up when they realize that not slowing the phone down may mean crashes or reboots. That iOS change is nothing but a shot in the foot.
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Ha - sometimes you have to let people shoot themselves in the foot and figure out for themselves there were reasons other than "Apple's trying to force me to buy a new phone". I look forward to people complaining that their phone now spontaneously shuts down so I can remind them of all this and point out their being a dumb ass. Of course they will probably down that Apple is purposely crashing their phone to get them to upgrade. Oh well.

Then again some of this is from Apple really pushing keeping the battery size as small as they can so the battery doesn't have much leeway/reserve as the batteries age, which makes this issue worse for many over time.

It's a fine line - I do enjoy the thinness and weight in my phone, but as they age (and I don't upgrade every year - not for me) and the battery ages things like this can surface.
 
umeng2002 said:
I feel the "fix" should have been disclosed and should have been a toggle.

I still have an iPhone 6. It's still plenty fast. Although I did replace the battery month ago.

Imagine if nVidia stealthily underclocked their GPUs some years after the release since they were seeing instability at the released clock speeds.
Click to expand...

That doesnt really count as Apple never advertise their phones actual performance beyond what hardware is in the phone. Theoretical chip performance during a keynote is not consumer advertising.

Customers and reviewers build run benchmarks etc to gauge performance which is always subject to throttling etc. Apple never guaranteed that their phones would perform at maximum forever.
 
how can we push consumers to buy our new products? drain their batteries then drain their pockets (insert laughing tom cruise pic here)
 
What a bunch of tripe. Apple decides to downclock their phones in order to maintain stability when the battery performance has been compromised by age. Good on them! A slower phone is still better than one that crashes every time it gets pushed too hard for its battery's power delivery capabilities.

The other side to that is that reduced clocks lessen overall power consumption, which in turn will help prolong the life of the battery. In what universe is this anti-consumer? If they really wanted people to be forced to buy new phones, they would have just let the processor hammer the battery at full clock speed until the thing was unuseable.

Get our lawmakers working on something that actually matters, please.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
What a bunch of tripe. Apple decides to downclock their phones in order to maintain stability when the battery performance has been compromised by age. Good on them! A slower phone is still better than one that crashes every time it gets pushed too hard for its battery's power delivery capabilities.

The other side to that is that reduced clocks lessen overall power consumption, which in turn will help prolong the life of the battery. In what universe is this anti-consumer? If they really wanted people to be forced to buy new phones, they would have just let the processor hammer the battery at full clock speed until the thing was unuseable.

Get our lawmakers working on something that actually matters, please.
Click to expand...

So where do we draw the line? Is this ok in your car with engine wear? What about your medical devices like a pace maker? How about Ovens or Microwaves? TV's? The list go's on and on.

This particular change wasn't 'evil' per say. But it sure a shit wasn't informative to the user base either.
 
Grimlaking said:
So where do we draw the line? Is this ok in your car with engine wear? What about your medical devices like a pace maker? How about Ovens or Microwaves? TV's? The list go's on and on.

This particular change wasn't 'evil' per say. But it sure a shit wasn't informative to the user base either.
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What, you would rather your car not shut off the engine in the event of a cooling system failure? Because if you're going to make car analogies, that's about the only one that makes sense. The pacemaker line is ludicrous. And yes, I personally would prefer that my microwave/oven reduce it's performance if there were a problem with the power supply that might result in premature component death.

I design industrial control systems for a living. The modern plant, much like the modern phone, is packed with smart sensors that can detect wear on a piece of machinery. If I'm not using that information to compensate the process in favor of equipment lifespan, I'm doing a really crappy job as a controls designer.

I'm not a fan of Apple, but this spin job is ridiculous. We're not talking about automobile/pacemaker/oven failure levels of danger here. Your Twitter app takes a couple seconds longer to load. Big whoop! Would you prefer it crash, or your aging battery reach uselessness even sooner? They made a good call.
 
It seems to me that the DOJ and the federal government has an axe to grind over that incedent in which Apple would not give up a hack to allow the fed to access your phone at will. Apple would rather go down fighting rather that give you, as a cutomer, up to anyone. This is the promise they made to their customers and they kept their promise. Not many companies with that type of integrity now a days. APPLE HORRAH.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
What, you would rather your car not shut off the engine in the event of a cooling system failure? Because if you're going to make car analogies, that's about the only one that makes sense. The pacemaker line is ludicrous. And yes, I personally would prefer that my microwave/oven reduce it's performance if there were a problem with the power supply that might result in premature component death.

I design industrial control systems for a living. The modern plant, much like the modern phone, is packed with smart sensors that can detect wear on a piece of machinery. If I'm not using that information to compensate the process in favor of equipment lifespan, I'm doing a really crappy job as a controls designer.

I'm not a fan of Apple, but this spin job is ridiculous. We're not talking about automobile/pacemaker/oven failure levels of danger here. Your Twitter app takes a couple seconds longer to load. Big whoop! Would you prefer it crash, or your aging battery reach uselessness even sooner? They made a good call.
Click to expand...

But they made that call without the conscent of the user. That is where the problem lies. IF they had informed the users and offered a battery upgrade all along to maintain OEM performance levels then this wouldn't even be a discussion. If you don't get that then I'm not sure we're even communicating.
 
Grimlaking said:
But they made that call without the conscent of the user. That is where the problem lies. IF they had informed the users and offered a battery upgrade all along to maintain OEM performance levels then this wouldn't even be a discussion. If you don't get that then I'm not sure we're even communicating.
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No argument that Apple's behavior on those fronts are lacking. But that's not what I'm steaming about. I'm pissed that there are folks out there slinging hyperbole like 'what if your pacemaker did this'. I'm pissed that that fucking DOJ and SEC are using my tax money to start a legal battle over slow app loading on old phones.

It's not that big a deal any way you look at it. It's a fucking phone. Its core functionality can be had for like fifteen fucking dollars at fucking Walmart for fuck's sake.

And somehow it's national news that old smartphones are slower than when they were bought.

Fuck.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
No argument that Apple's behavior on those fronts are lacking. But that's not what I'm steaming about. I'm pissed that there are folks out there slinging hyperbole like 'what if your pacemaker did this'. I'm pissed that that fucking DOJ and SEC are using my tax money to start a legal battle over slow app loading on old phones.

It's not that big a deal any way you look at it. It's a fucking phone. Its core functionality can be had for like fifteen fucking dollars at fucking Walmart for fuck's sake.

And somehow it's national news that old smartphones are slower than when they were bought.

Fuck.
Click to expand...

Oh I used the pacemaker comment as hyperbole. But yea this smells of wagging the dog. Yet on THIS forum... it's cool cause it's tech and expected. If you want a balance of regular news and tech news discussion this isn't the place for you.
 
Grimlaking said:
Oh I used the pacemaker comment as hyperbole. But yea this smells of wagging the dog. Yet on THIS forum... it's cool cause it's tech and expected. If you want a balance of regular news and tech news discussion this isn't the place for you.
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I don't "want a balance of regular news and tech news discussion." Your words, not mine. Besides, anyone technically astute enough to care about their smartphone's workings wouldn't touch an iPhone with a ten-foot-pole anyway. That is to say: this isn't really tech news, in my opinion. It's "tech news" for enthusiasts about in the same way that a Takata airbag recall is "racing news" to a Formula-1 crew.

Look, I'm sorry if my bile got directed at you. My apologies. I'm just pissed this is a thing and venting about it. No hard feelings.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
I don't "want a balance of regular news and tech news discussion." Your words, not mine. Besides, anyone technically astute enough to care about their smartphone's workings wouldn't touch an iPhone with a ten-foot-pole anyway. That is to say: this isn't really tech news, in my opinion. It's "tech news" for enthusiasts about in the same way that a Takata airbag recall is "racing news" to a Formula-1 crew.

Look, I'm sorry if my bile got directed at you. My apologies. I'm just pissed this is a thing and venting about it. No hard feelings.
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Eh I've been here since... what the late 90's... errr I mean 2006... yea. Anyway it takes more than that to get under my skin. ;) No worries at all.
 
Nukester said:
Look, I don't care for Apple as a company, and I'm no lemming. BUT, who cares if they slow it down to prolong battery life. I mean, I just text and check email and make a call once in a while.. It's a damn phone!
Click to expand...

We damn well know that this shit is about getting users to go out and buy new phones in order to keep milking that cash cow. There is even the added bonus of hiding the fact the batteries you can't replace are going to shit. The lack of a replaceable battery getting noticeably worse would piss off customers who would opt to replace the battery instead of getting a new phone. Removable batteries are also more expensive to integrate and that could cut into Apple's margins.

I don't know about you, but I don't like Apple making decisions about how my device will operate after I've purchased it. I'd have preferred the choice to let my battery life suffer and continue with great performance or vice versa. Apple is once again, telling it's customers how things are going to be and the people get in line like a bunch of sheep every fucking time for this stupid company that seemingly never does anything wrong. Apple has this cult like following and fan boys who would have sucked whatever Steve Jobs was selling right from the tap behind his zipper without question. That cult like devotion people have to Apple computers and devices has always been disturbing to me.

Apple is, was and probably always will be a shit company. It's no surprise as it was started by a shitty human being. Apple has always preyed on it's customer's gullible nature. While this isn't unique to Apple or even any one industry, Apple is probably more egregiously offensive about it than most companies.
 
Dan_D said:
We damn well know that this shit is about getting users to go out and buy new phones in order to keep milking that cash cow.
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Do we though? I mean... there's one of two outcomes:

1.) Apple slows the phone down and the old battery lasts longer, albeit with slower performance.

2.) Apple doesn't slow the phone down and as the battery ages, the phone becomes unstable, crashing and shutting down.

Of those two, which one do you really think is going to "force" people to buy a new iPhone faster? If it were me, a slower phone wouldn't be enough incentive to drop that kind of cash, but one that started locking up all the time certainly would be.

No argument from me that they should have just made the battery replaceable to begin with, but that's a bridge long-since crossed.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
Do we though? I mean... there's one of two outcomes:

1.) Apple slows the phone down and the old battery lasts longer, albeit with slower performance.

2.) Apple doesn't slow the phone down and as the battery ages, the phone becomes unstable, crashing and shutting down.

Of those two, which one do you really think is going to "force" people to buy a new iPhone faster? If it were me, a slower phone wouldn't be enough incentive to drop that kind of cash, but one that started locking up all the time certainly would be.

No argument from me that they should have just made the battery replaceable to begin with, but that's a bridge long-since crossed.
Click to expand...

Or you know design the phone so that it operates within the peak battery output for the complete lifecycle of the battery. Meaning...

If the rechargeable battery is expected to give out X amperage at Y age, and the life cycle of the battery is N years, then you advertise that this non replaceable battery has an expected life cycle of N years, and you build your device to operate at the peak efficiency your model shows to be present at N years. It isn't that difficult. You don't build a device to operate at 100% new battery output for every year of life of the device. That would never work as I understand it.

I tend to agree with Dan that this was a crap move by a company trying to pull a fast one on a market... and sadly it worked.
 
Grimlaking said:
Or you know design the phone so that it operates within the peak battery output for the complete lifecycle of the battery. Meaning...

If the rechargeable battery is expected to give out X amperage at Y age, and the life cycle of the battery is N years, then you advertise that this non replaceable battery has an expected life cycle of N years, and you build your device to operate at the peak efficiency your model shows to be present at N years. It isn't that difficult. You don't build a device to operate at 100% new battery output for every year of life of the device. That would never work as I understand it.

I tend to agree with Dan that this was a crap move by a company trying to pull a fast one on a market... and sadly it worked.
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Again, conceded that their design was lacking from the get go. That, I agree was a crap move.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
Do we though? I mean... there's one of two outcomes:

1.) Apple slows the phone down and the old battery lasts longer, albeit with slower performance.

2.) Apple doesn't slow the phone down and as the battery ages, the phone becomes unstable, crashing and shutting down.

Of those two, which one do you really think is going to "force" people to buy a new iPhone faster? If it were me, a slower phone wouldn't be enough incentive to drop that kind of cash, but one that started locking up all the time certainly would be.

No argument from me that they should have just made the battery replaceable to begin with, but that's a bridge long-since crossed.
Click to expand...

I'd like the choice personally. Secondly, the battery aging would simply lead to reduced battery life, not instability. The only reason why an aging battery would force customers to buy a new phone is the fact that the battery is integrated and therefore, can't be replaced by the end user.
 
Dan_D said:
I'd like the choice personally. Secondly, the battery aging would simply lead to reduced battery life, not instability. The only reason why an aging battery would force customers to buy a new phone is the fact that the battery is integrated and therefore, can't be replaced by the end user.
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I can't recall where I read it, but I have been under the impression that the downclock was also made to alleviate problems users had been having with battery output degradation making their phones lock up.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
I can't recall where I read it, but I have been under the impression that the downclock was also made to alleviate problems users had been having with battery output degradation making their phones lock up.
Click to expand...

That could very well be, but that's not generally how it works. Normally when you have power issues, electronics randomly reset or shut down. In more than 2 decades of troubleshooting PC's, and sometimes cell phones I've seen one PSU problem result in a lockup on a PC. On cell phones, I've never seen a degraded battery do that, but I've only covered Apple phones very early on and not for extended periods of time. I haven't done that with the new ones. Although, places I work keep giving me iPhones and so far I've had zero issues with them other than the usual shit they suck at.
 
Dan_D said:
That could very well be, but that's not generally how it works. Normally when you have power issues, electronics randomly reset or shut down. In more than 2 decades of troubleshooting PC's, and sometimes cell phones I've seen one PSU problem result in a lockup on a PC. On cell phones, I've never seen a degraded battery do that, but I've only covered Apple phones very early on and not for extended periods of time. I haven't done that with the new ones. Although, places I work keep giving me iPhones and so far I've had zero issues with them other than the usual shit they suck at.
Click to expand...
I mean... It makes sense though, doesn't it? Maintaining higher clock speeds requires higher voltage and greater current. If your overclock isn't stable yet and you've got thermal headroom, what do you do? You up the voltage.

The same should apply in reverse. If your power source can't supply enough to keep your processor stable at a given clock speed, what happens? Proc becomes unstable. Obviously not a problem we often deal with in the PC realm, but as batteries age, their current and voltage characteristics degrade.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
I mean... It makes sense though, doesn't it? Maintaining higher clock speeds requires higher voltage and greater current. If your overclock isn't stable yet and you've got thermal headroom, what do you do? You up the voltage.

The same should apply in reverse. If your power source can't supply enough to keep your processor stable at a given clock speed, what happens? Proc becomes unstable. Obviously not a problem we often deal with in the PC realm, but as batteries age, their current and voltage characteristics degrade.
Click to expand...

We aren't talking about overclocking as it goes beyond the set thermal thresholds and TDP's of the processor in question. Intel and AMD set their CPUs at specific clocks because they can get the bulk of chips to behave a certain way in that envelope. Once you go outside of that all bets are off, although Intel and AMD are surprisingly consistent. In reverse, they don't usually become unstable in the same way a system might with faulty memory or storage. They usually simply halt or experience a brown out of sorts causing a restart.
 
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