AMD and Nvidia Must Do More To Stop Shortages and Gouging

Exactly. It is actually very likely that producing more units will mean lower margins

Yes it's a balancing act. Create more margin, less people will want it.

Total Profit = # of people buying * Margin
# of people buying = x*1/Cost^t Where X is the general population interested in smart phone and t is a function of disposable income where t >= log 1 / log Cost

And this is the simplified formula. It doesn't always work as Tim Cook found out with the iPhone X
 
It's not SLI

mGPU

More or less the same thing, just a different way of applying it through DX12.

It has all the same inherent problems and drawbacks of SLI and Crossfire, but depends more on game development programming and is less mature.
 
The GPU market was never prepared for this kind of insane demand surge. Ramping up production both difficult and could really backfire if NV or AMD ends up writing off big stocks of unsold merch a few years from now.
Neither NV or AMD really want to piss of resellers either. The only happy people out of all of this are those mining with great cooling, hash rates and cheap power.
 
More or less the same thing, just a different way of applying it through DX12.

It has all the same inherent problems and drawbacks of SLI and Crossfire, but depends more on game development programming and is less mature.

Not even close to the same thing. Yes it requires custom code to support mGPU and puts responsibility more on developers to implement it, but it is so much more efficient!
 
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Hey I got an idea... how about more multi-GPU cards?? quad rx550 on a single card, anyone?
 
Why are folk bitching at NVIDA instead of the actual fab manufacturers (EVGA, PNY, MSI, Gigabyte, Matrox)?
 
I fear both for pc hardware sales as well as PC game developers if no action is taken in say 3-5 or so years.

Personally I want to see Nvidia to take following action for future generations in mind:

GeForce = Gaming cards, BIOS/hardware/driver cryptocurrency mining locked cards
Quadro = Highend workstation/professional use, same as before
A new "miner" focused series = Less fit for gaming (still possible), lack of boost clocks etc, some models can have stripped outputs etc

Initially the shipping volumes split ratio could be like 30~40 % miner / 70~60 % gaming card but no more than 50 / 50 % at tops to better secure gaming card sales (and thus PC hardware & game developers in the long run). They can also better regulate the demand of the two camps and introduce different policies regarding warranty and such if required. This way the miner market card pricing can live its own life according to cryptocurrency hash rates and demand and Nvidia doesn't lose a great added market potential but also secures the more stable PC gaming market.
 
Why are folk bitching at NVIDA instead of the actual fab manufacturers (EVGA, PNY, MSI, Gigabyte, Matrox)?
The actual fabs are TSMC, Samsung, and a bit of UMC (are they still doing it?).

However, what it appears is some people want Nvidia and AMD to engage in illegal collusion tactics just so they can get a cheap GPU, with alternatives being to artificially limit a legitimate, lucrative market.
 
I fear both for pc hardware sales as well as PC game developers if no action is taken in say 3-5 or so years.

Personally I want to see Nvidia to take following action for future generations in mind:

GeForce = Gaming cards, BIOS/hardware/driver cryptocurrency mining locked cards
Quadro = Highend workstation/professional use, same as before
A new "miner" focused series = Less fit for gaming (still possible), lack of boost clocks etc, some models can have stripped outputs etc

Initially the shipping volumes split ratio could be like 30~40 % miner / 70~60 % gaming card but no more than 50 / 50 % at tops to better secure gaming card sales (and thus PC hardware & game developers in the long run). They can also better regulate the demand of the two camps and introduce different policies regarding warranty and such if required. This way the miner market card pricing can live its own life according to cryptocurrency hash rates and demand and Nvidia doesn't lose a great added market potential but also secures the more stable PC gaming market.
I feel the "miner" cards won't do much, unless if they are also good gaming cards. At which point, just sell gaming cards.

A notable (though not overwhelming) part of the ROI is selling used mining cards when they are no longer capable of mining efficiently enough to justify keeping. Well, if they aren't good at mining, that only leaves gaming...

If gamers don't want those old cards, then there is no reason to buy "mining edition" cards. Nvidia already had "mining edition" cards, and they were slammed for doing so, and rightly so. Nobody wants a card with no resell value.
 
on what grounds can someone call out a corporation for purposely not creating enough supply and driving up demand?
Isn't that what practically tons of other companies do? When's the last time i saw an article lambasting nintendo from doing this for it's previous 3 generation of consoles?
Does nvidia/amd have any obligation to meet the demands of the consumers?

Not only electronics, but things such as precious metals and gemstones are "highly regulated" as far as the supply chain goes. There is way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way more supply than is allowed into the market.

However this is not the case as far as I am aware with the current GPU shortage and super high RAM prices.

Now if they knew for certain that the crypto-craze was going to continue indefinitely then they would go ahead and spin up more mfg lines if they aren't already at max capacity as it is.

However, if they think that the bubble is going to burst then it is not in their best long-term interests to spin up more mfg lines and have contracts for more fab space.

I'm just sitting back and watching and working on building (hoarding) some retro machines in the meantime... way cheaper and more fun than buying new gear at this point as I really see almost no point in me upgrading my system yet.
 
I have no problem with miners but I do have a problem with them buying 10 fucking cards that 10 other gamers could use. Or, whatever the amount is. 2 cards is 1 too many. Go be a miner but stop taking cards away from gamers.

I pray and hope to god that nVidia cripples miners ability to use these cards moving forward. There is a demand so the market will respond but with a product that separates gamers from miners, and not soon enough!

Good luck with that. If you really want that to happen, then say goodbye to the GPGPU abilities that newer cards have. They would have to absolutely go back to the way things were before CUDA was around.. which really kinda actually sucked when it came to speed and the ability to add/tweak features.

It would require a complete new architectural design from the ground up.

And then having say 3 instead of 1 distinct types of cards (gaming, professional, and mining) while locking the different lines to their specific use would be completely unmanageable and kill profitability.

There is something to be said for 1 basic line that can do everything and do it well as opposed to multiple distinct architectures that can only do one specific thing.
 
Here's the thing the "crypto will never pop" crowd doesn't seem to get: It is possible to simultaneously be a great idea with staying power, and yet still be the subject of a speculative bubble (see: automobiles, airplanes).

It doesn't make one a Luddite to observe that a large price correction is inevitable at this point. We've seen this show before.


Well yes, but that just means money changes hands. The value will still climb back up.

Crypto is something we've never encountered before. It creates value literally out of thin air (heat), and the only thing you need to create it is spare electricity, and a little inexpensive equipment purchase. Something most places have no problems supplying.

Most of the times these "corrections" are only temporary, and the market recovers in a few days. If your favorite Currency hits a wall you can't vault over (Bitcoin ASIC), you just create a new currency that uses the same old GPUs you already bought.

That is what happened with Etherium, and its the reason miners can use both Nvidia and AMD now. Most people say the rush on Etherium as the reason Bitcoin has continued to climb to such enormous heights over the last year (massive growth on one crypto influences and increases others). Because miners like a diversified portfolio, and they believe the coin that is already sky-high is only going up.

This will never end because, if your favorite currency becomes unpopular tonight, you start mining a new one tomorrow. And so does everyone else, creating a new market and demand for the new currency overnight. BECAUSE EVERYONE IS UNIVERSALLY GREEDY, they all act the same.

This is the same mantra that keeps futures markets running. Same bullshit trades on fantasy products, same market corrections, same recoveries. The mining revolution just makes it incredibly cheap for you to get a seat on the trading floor.
 
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Could be worse. In 1990, my 20MHz 386DX with 1 meg of ram 40meg HD, 512K video, and 13" VGA Monitor was $2000. In todays terms with inflation doubling every 23.4 years (on average of 3% inflation) or 1.03 ^ 28 = 2.28 price factor, that is $4575 in todays dollars.

Economies of scale. Manufacturing gets cheaper as technology advances. It was a heck of a lot harder to get those specs during that time, than it is to achieve todays specs.
We are paying more for the same tech year after year. The performance leaps are far smaller than they where in the 90's and 2000's.
 
You really want to know where a lot of GPU's are going:


Nvidia has you covered: You don't need no stinking GPU at home, they have your back and you can trust them.

AMD has you covered - buy our SOC driven consoles - gamers are a priority with us.


$ $ $ $ $ $ :vamp:
 
Of course the below do not affect resources going to gaming GPU's, oh wait . . .

Volta.jpg SaturnV.jpg

AICar.jpg
 
Anyways if AMD/Nvidia are selling directly (reference cards) to huge mining farms then I would say they are bordering upon this:
Now folks, you are able to get cards even today at reasonable cost - companies will periodically sell you MSRP or close cards to cover their asses. Like EVGA selling me a 1080 Ti for $756 last week when they know they could sell it for way more, Nvidia selling cards at MSRP. These two companies (Nvidia and RTG) are getting close I do believe in getting in some serious trouble. They may loose some patents and the market maybe will be opened up to other players. Then again I am no lawyer.
 
Anyways if AMD/Nvidia are selling directly (reference cards) to huge mining farms then I would say they are bordering upon this:
Now folks, you are able to get cards even today at reasonable cost - companies will periodically sell you MSRP or close cards to cover their asses. Like EVGA selling me a 1080 Ti for $756 last week when they know they could sell it for way more, Nvidia selling cards at MSRP. These two companies (Nvidia and RTG) are getting close I do believe in getting in some serious trouble. They may loose some patents and the market maybe will be opened up to other players. Then again I am no lawyer.

During hurricanes in South Florida the law goes into place that no one can raise the price of goods to take advantage of food or gas shortage.
Some people try to pump gas and sell it for 3-5 times what they paid for, or bags of ice for $50. The offenders are fined and in some cases jailed.

Retailers should not be able to price gouge just because demand outweighs supply. If it's sold out it's just sold out. So yes, Newegg and others are engaging in price gouging/fixing. B&H Photo doesn't have such high pricing.
The retailers just hope the fines are smaller than the profit they'll make. This has been going on since 2012, so there plenty of sales data on this issue.

All the IRS has to do is make clear what are the taxes on crypto and the mining craze will end overnight. Many people don't realize they have to pay capital gains tax on every trade.
 
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During hurricanes in South Florida the law goes into place that no one can raise the price of goods to take advantage of food or gas shortage.
Some people try to pump gas and sell it for 3-5 times what they paid for, or bags of ice for $50. The offenders are fined and in some cases jailed.

Retailers should not be able to price gouge just because demand outweighs supply. If it's sold out it's just sold out. So yes, Newegg and others are engaging in price gouging/fixing.
The retailers just hope the fines are smaller than the profit they'll make. This has been going on since 2013, so there plenty of sales data on this issue.

All the IRS has to do is make clear what are the taxes on crypto and the mining craze will end overnight. Many people don't realize they have to pay capital gains tax on every trade.
Yes indeed! Right now this hardware shortage is threatening a whole 100 billion $/year industry, developers, retailers and the list goes on. Very much like a storm.

There is another aspect that may be very interesting too - which might even be rather scary.

Crypto Currency depends mostly on independent checks/tests of transactions requiring compute resources spread out throughout the world in cases. While there are thousands of Cryptocurrencies there are effectively only two companies that control all of that processing except for the ASIC coins. AMD and Nvidia - two companies that potentially can control tomorrow's money :sneaky:. Is the lure of this possibility so great that AMD and Nvidia is supplying these big mining farms an unfair advantage in procurement? I don't know but something I wish anyone with some rather big balls would check out. This maybe way way bigger than it appears. (Tin foil hat on/now off).
 
Yes indeed! Right now this hardware shortage is threatening a whole 100 billion $/year industry, developers, retailers and the list goes on. Very much like a storm.

There is another aspect that may be very interesting too - which might even be rather scary.

Crypto Currency depends mostly on independent checks/tests of transactions requiring compute resources spread out throughout the world in cases. While there are thousands of Cryptocurrencies there are effectively only two companies that control all of that processing except for the ASIC coins. AMD and Nvidia - two companies that potentially can control tomorrow's money :sneaky:. Is the lure of this possibility so great that AMD and Nvidia is supplying these big mining farms an unfair advantage in procurement? I don't know but something I wish anyone with some rather big balls would check out. This maybe way way bigger than it appears. (Tin foil hat on/ now off).

As you can see crypto on the money and hardware side are unregulated. Many crypto believers wish for things to stay this way, but lack of regulation kills small business and consumer confidence.
I've decided not to build a PC until things go back to MSRP. Which means, lost sales for the companies I usually buy from all because of inflated GPU prices.

Boycott companies like Newegg (Chinese owned) for price gouging US customers.
Only buy form reputable US companies like Amazon (Sold by Amazon) and B&H Photo, or local shops.

If Nivida and AMD don't fix the supply issue, don't upgrade your rig until prices come back down.
If consumer sales drop, this will expose any under the table bulk sales to miners.
 
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As you can see crypto on the money and hardware side are unregulated. Many crypto believers wish for things to stay this way, but lack of regulation kills small business and consumer confidence.
I've decided not to build a PC until things go back to MSRP. Which means, lost sales for the companies I usually buy from all because of inflated GPU prices.
Well if a vital service such as electrical power is just disconnected because the local power company wants to send it elsewhere for a higher price - causing real harm - the government will come in and try to protect the consumers reliant upon that service. That is what government is supposed to do when needed. The power company then becomes liable for damages as well caused by their actions. Cable companies, telephone companies and I am sure have set this precedent, so nothing really new.

If the manufacturers are producing the same number or more then one would expect them to be coming in the normal channels at similar rates - that is not the case now. Mountains of cards are being produced but are be diverted elsewhere. Would be interesting to see the changes in the supply chain and where they are going now. If video cards become so scarce and one's only recourse is to buy Nvidia Gaming Service that would put Nvidia in control of virtually every PC game developer - That would make Nvidia GameWorks (trying to gain control) look like a sand pebble. AMD also has some clear advantages with shortages. Sell more combinations or complete systems, more sells in consoles. Both with hands in a Trillion dollar market as in Crypto is icing on the cake.
 
Well if a vital service such as electrical power is just disconnected because the local power company wants to send it elsewhere for a higher price - causing real harm - the government will come in and try to protect the consumers reliant upon that service. That is what government is supposed to do when needed. The power company then becomes liable for damages as well caused by their actions. Cable companies, telephone companies and I am sure have set this precedent, so nothing really new.

If the manufacturers are producing the same number or more then one would expect them to be coming in the normal channels at similar rates - that is not the case now. Mountains of cards are being produced but are be diverted elsewhere. Would be interesting to see the changes in the supply chain and where they are going now. If video cards become so scarce and one's only recourse is to buy Nvidia Gaming Service that would put Nvidia in control of virtually every PC game developer - That would make Nvidia GameWorks (trying to gain control) look like a sand pebble. AMD also has some clear advantages with shortages. Sell more combinations or complete systems, more sells in consoles. Both with hands in a Trillion dollar market as in Crypto is icing on the cake.

It makes no sense how GPUs can be out of stock for weeks on their own website, Amazon, B&H Photo etc.
We're probably getting what is left over after selling to bulk customers, and we get the inflated prices. When companies get too greedy i.e. AT&T, the Government always come knocking.
 
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It makes no sense how GPUs can be out of stock for weeks on their own website, Amazon, B&H Photo etc.
We're probably getting what is left over after selling to bulk customers, and we get the inflated prices. When companies get too greedy i.e. AT&T, the Government always come knocking.
Well that is why I think AMD and Nvidia maybe on very shaky grounds:

The Clayton Act:
The Clayton Act addresses price discrimination, tying arrangements, exclusive dealing agreements, requirement contracts, and output contracts. In the patent-antitrust context, §3 of the Clayton Act is most pertinent: It shall be unlawful . . . to lease or make a sale or contract for sale of goods . . . or other commodities, whether patented or unpatented . . . on the condition, agreement or understanding that the lessee or purchaser thereof shall not use or deal in the goods . . . of a competitor . . . where the effect . . . may be to substantially lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly in any line of commerce. 15 U.S.C. . .
http://www.brinksgilson.com/files/289_copy1.pdf

The above link is falling asleep material but can be interesting. I look at it, you can hold a patent and have exclusivity as long as you are good stewards of it, if your actions brings harm then you start to fall into the Monopoly category which can overrides your patent. You just can't stop delivering goods that others depend upon while you keep others (patents/exclusivity) from able to compete with you. Will AMD and Nvidia get some lawsuits? What grounds? If they are diverting and contributing to the drought of gaming cards coming to the market for profit causing harm to a whole industry - PCs, gaming - I would think (no lawyer here) someone may have a good case. Now if a real business lawyer can bring some clarity on this would be, well much appreciated.
 
I think everyone's looking at this the wrong way round. What they need to do is release a version of their product that's better for mining than graphics cards. Tweak the memory and CPU to give better hash rates. Perhaps research into models that can help streamline the process of buffering blockchains. Sell them with specific coolers and fans that last longer. Charge a modest premium and at the same time decrease the ROI time sufficiently so that the cards are more efficient. Make interesting features, like "profiles" for specific algos. There's a million ideas that could be used.

How about selling GPU's with PCIe 1x interfaces on them. Sufficient for mining and MUCH simpler to implement on bigger rigs

Include a single display port. Then, when they're resold, cheap gaming GPU's are available.

At the moment they're charging an extortionate premium for their compute GPU's, even though they're the same cores. The supposed "mining cards" aren't available anywhere in any decent numbers, have no display port, so no resale value, and they're based on the entry level models only.

Yes there's a finite number of GPU's made, but at least then they would be two separate products and people would stop whinging like babies that they can't play games.

But for all this at the end of the day the will has to be there, and it's not. Nvidia and AMD don't give a crap about your gaming. They care about selling as many of their cards as they can. ROI.
But then, if and when the bubble pops, they'll have a bunch of crypto cards laying around that nobody will buy, that'll need to be modified or junked (costs more money either way). Probably less likely than just ramping up production.
 
why pump up output or release new products when you ca sell the easier to make, cheaper products with higher markups.

ive wanted a vega 64 since release just for freesync, and the only card i could find in stock was a 1080 at the time and months later, still nothing

ATI was such a better company without AMD in the mix
 
The question though is how much does it cost to double production? I doubt the foundries just have that kind of capacity lying idle.

I 100% agree with you, that is exactly WHY we have a shortage today. But the idea they don't want to sell graphics cards is ridiculous. It reminds me of the 2 button meme guy. On one button "GPU makers are greedy" and on the other one "GPU makers don't want to make more money". Over the long run, they absolutely will increase production to meet demand. In the short run there are 2 factors: A) idiots are buying GPU's to mine cryptos without even doing the math on power draw * cost per watt as well as projected hash difficulty growth and then B) Nvidia and AMD are saying "let's not risk a huge capital outlay to increase capacity on what might be a fad"
 
During hurricanes in South Florida the law goes into place that no one can raise the price of goods to take advantage of food or gas shortage.
Some people try to pump gas and sell it for 3-5 times what they paid for, or bags of ice for $50. The offenders are fined and in some cases jailed.

I'm pretty sure high-end graphics cards don't fall under the "essential commodities" category as defined by the Price Gouging Statute of the Florida AG Office.
 
Or you could buy a used gtx 680, 780, 980, or even stoop to the lowly level of the 770 or 970, you can find lots of fun games to play even those cards are pure overkill. I just picked up a used ATI card from ebay 5xxx series, runs some 2011 and even newer games great. I know you can find a solution, heck there are some good RPGs that only use software and are not too bad on the eyes.

I feel for you, getting a snazzy new card is a good feeling though.
I recently won an Asus 970 Turbo, it'll have to do triwolf.
 
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