Time to file a PayPal dispute?

First off, i want to say i do not think the Seller is/was trying to scam, but i think this has gone on long enough and want to ask the community at large.

Bought a used Asus Motherboard from Mothman on October 27th, paid via PayPal. Board was shipped that day. Board arrived in an Anti-Static Bag, in a different an OEM mobo box (for a different board, but not a real issue) packed with local papers within a Flat Rate box on October 29th. No shipping damage was noted, no obvious visual faults were seen with the board at that time. a PM was sent to Mothman to inform him the package arrived and looked good and that i would let him know how it went. So far nothing to complain about.

I then installed a fresh CMOS battery, my core components and tried to use the board, getting no response to pressing the power button, or jumping the PS switch pins on the board. i removed the 24pin ATX power connector and tried to jump my PSU on directly and still got no response from the PSU coming on. no case fans, no water pump, no fan controller, nothing. the PSU was a 6yr old Corsair AX750 that had been flawless, but given the age and the fact that it would not come on when jumping it directly, i assumed it was bad, and resigned myself to getting a new PSU.

i admit at this point i made the mistake of not contacting the seller to inform him i was having issues at this time, and that was due to me believing the problem was with my PSU. it took a week for me to get a new PSU, but a Corsair CXM650 was purchased new.

using the new PSU i retested powering up the board using only the CPU (3770k), OEM cooler, and Corsair Dominator 1600 memory (4x4gb) and nothing happened. tried again via the motherboard P/S pins, as well as the 24pin ATX connector of the PSU. thinking i might have another bad PSU (it was bought at Fry's after all) i completely disconnected the PSU from the board and tried powering it up, and it did. i contacted Mothman:



i kept trying to troubleshoot it, cycling the memory sticks, finally discovering i get something to occur with only the 24pin ATX connector in place the 8 Pin EATX connector left off the board. I started a Thread in the Intels Mobos section asking for help. Again i contacted the Seller:





that was my last communication with the seller until Nov 19th, however both Mothman and i were involved in my Help Thread, having purchased another CPU, as well as finally finding a board out of a retired PC at the local Junior College to test my CPUs, RAM, PSUs with. they all worked in another board, but not the one i was sold. i also posted Videos of what the board was doing with the ebay chip installed, as well as close up images of the socket/pins, VRM and EATX connector. again nothing visual is/was present. Again i contacted the seller:



Can't attach any more screen captures, however Mothman did confirm on the 3rd he recieved the board with a simple Yes, and on the 4th that i would need to wait for him to test it.

i have not heard back since.

At this point I have to ask, is it time to start the dispute process with PayPal? I know he is a long established trader here and elsewhere, and I am sure many of you have had a positive experience. I have tried to be patient, and given him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to this board, but at what point do I get to say enough? I understand it's a shitty situation all around, but that can't be changed at this point.

I would have opened a dispute the moment he started being a dick and accusing you of doing something wrong. You've been more than fair, and he's acted shady as hell, heat be damned.

ryan_975 said:

I would have opened a dispute the moment he started being a dick and accusing you of doing something wrong. You've been more than fair, and he's acted shady as hell, heat be damned.

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Usually I'm pretty slow to do something like this but I agree here.

Wow.... Just wow....

So sure.... It is moderatly possible that your old power supply that died took the motherboard with it the first time you tried to power it on.
That is the ONLY thing that i can think of that you might have against you. Truth be told, when i was reading through your description and you said that the prior known good working psu was failing first try on the motherboard, my initial thought was "Ohhh no, this is a thread about a bad deal with a motherboard and now the PSU is not working... I hope the PSU didn't fry the board or vice versa!" But even still, even if one did fry the other. There is no reasonable way short of being an electrical engeneer for one MFG or the other, to go back and prove which fried which.
You seem like a capable individual and know how to handle hardware, enough at least to test all of the rest of the hardware and prove it successfully functioning.

You are right on the money regarding you being respectful and not accusatory throughout the messages you linked here.
The Seller rubbed me the wrong way as soon as he said "With all do respect you've done something wrong".

Heatware or No Heatware, if u were trying to scam him you would have not contacted him at all and just opened a Paypal dispute that you likely would have auto won cuz Paypal is Paypal. And then tried to keep the board.

Scam artists don't typically go through weeks of troubleshooting to try to determine without the shadow of a doubt that the part sold to them was failed.

It sucks for the seller, i get it. I would be upset if i was seller also, but at the same time. This exact scenario is the reason that i take video of the hardware working, including date and time the video was taken clearly visible in the video before i sell any hardware either here or on eBay. Then whether the buyer paid for it or not, i insure the hardware for the amount it was sold for, and photograph how the hardware was packaged before shipping the hardware out. So if i had been the seller i would have full proof to you that the board was fully functional prior to shipping it to you, and then my resolution in this case would have been going through the processes with you to file an insurance claim. Then if the claim was determined for whatever reason to be denied due to insufficient packing. At that point i would offer to refund the full ammount with you shipping the board back to me, or refund the full ammount minus the shipping costs and you keep or dispose of the baord.

Whatever or however it was supposed to go, the seller could have handled the situation 9000 times better.

At this point i would say you are justified in going through with a paypal dispute. (well you were justified even before now as others above me stated, but even Jesus couldn't feel guilty now)

Vapor1000 said:

Wow.... Just wow....

1. "The Seller rubbed me the wrong way as soon as he said "With all do respect you've done something wrong"."
2. "Scam artists don't typically go through weeks of troubleshooting to try to determine without the shadow of a doubt that the part sold to them was failed."
3. "you were justified even before now as others above me stated, but even Jesus couldn't feel guilty now."

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1. Yes, to immediately jump on the offensive after such a short string of communication would imply guilt.
2. Save ALL receipts for anything you purchased with the intent to test the board (PSU included) as you have the possibility to pin that on him if you end up in court over it.
3. Vapor1000 you had me rolling with the Jesus thing

But in all honesty, I agree with Vapor1000, he should of had some proof of function prior to shipping, then he could at least try and go after the shipping company.

The second he copped that BS attitude was the moment to file the dispute.

I'd say it's possible your old psu fried the motherboard. It's really impossible to determine though. That being said, he agreed to take it back at your shipping expense, and you sent it back. He needs to refund you. Open a case.

I would consider someone making an insurance claim unless OP is positive that the PSU is bad/damaged. It's rare that I ever make a claim but this is one of those cases.

This isn't about whether the seller should or shouldn't take the board back, or even whether or not the board was damaged by the OP or was damaged in shipping. It's about how the seller handled the situation. He offered absolutely no help whatsoever and immediately copped an attitude and started blaming the OP, and then when he DID acquiesce and agree to accept the return he does nothing once he got it and refuses to communicate.

theplaidfad said:

OP plugs what's now known to be a faulty PSU into what the seller with a long history of satisfactory transactions said was a perfectly working motherboard, and you all want to lynch the seller? I hope the seller has proof it was working, because regardless of how much time the OP spent making sure it wasn't his hardware that was bad, the only person here about to get dicked over is the seller.

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Please re-read what I said. The first PSU was a known good unit, albeit an oldish one. When it didn't power on with a supposedly good board, I thought it might had died, despite it having worked flawlessly before. But hardware can fail, it was six years old, so be it. At that time I wasn't aware of the issue with the EATX circuits on that board. As I posted earlier later testing with that PSU on a known good board showed it to still be good. Basically I condemned and replaced a good PSU because of this board.

Mothman, I deleted your post , you can post it again without the name calling.
Also, if you call me out again, you can expect that I will not be so kind next time.
So either act like an adult, or face the consequences.

Nimisys has never accepted the fact that I sent him a PERFECTLY FUNCTIONAL, EXCELLENT CLEAN UNDAMAGED CONDITION MOTHERBOARD and would never have done otherwise. For those above that say Heatware doesn't matter, I'm a long time member with an impeccable reputation https://www.heatware.com/u/77136/to, 203-0-0. NIMISYS HAS BEEN A MEMBER SINCE 2000 AND HAS ONE TOTAL HEATWARE FEEDBACK AND IT'S "NEGATIVE". I've never had a problem with any member in the eight years I've been a member. I'm asking those members who know me to chime in here and come to my defense. For those of you above who call me, 'Scam Artist', 'Dick', 'Unhelpfull', 'BS Attitude' ect. I have never dealt with any of you and you have no right to smear my good name under cover of the internet, I invite you to come to my house and do it in person, my contact info, that I also include with every transaction is listed below. I'm a retired Architect and work at home so I'm always here. Also Nimisys failed to include the entire thread here. He sent back the board, I photographed opening it and upon inspection immediately noticed a cluster of scraped, cut traces THAT WERE ABSOLUTELY NOT THERE IN MY POSSESION AND WERE NOT CAUSED BY SHIPPING DAMAGE. The damaged traces are right behind a mounting hole and were caused by dragging the board across a motherboard stand-off. Nimisys refuses to take responsibility for this damage and it could only have occurred while in his possession from careless handling. I offered him a settlement that he didn't even consider. Here's the entire thread and pictures of the damaged motherboard:

https://hardforum.com/conversations/asus-mobo.2197774/
https://i.imgur.com/Tr7euvO.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/0a4I3Vg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/250L9su.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gNskdjL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/zUbYx0j.jpg

Bob Donaldson
9125 Tulip Grove Road
Gaithersburg, Maryland 20879
240 246 7776
cell 240 595 3081

The issue is, if those scrapes are the cause of the problem then its hard to say who caused them. Mothman tested the motherboard, but that scrape could have accidentally occurred after removing the board from whatever he was using as a test bed. By the same token, the board could've been scraped while it was being inserted into Nimisys' system.

I did post it, in the
Help thread , linked to and referenced in the first post. At the time of this thread you had not contacted me about the board since the 4th, and the pictures were not supplied until yesterday.

You offer was to refund me my cost of shipping you back the board and the cost of the Celeron chip I purchased. It did not take me long to decide I thought that was an un-acceptable offer, so yes, I quickly declined it. That offer was made at midnight. I declined it this morning,with reason given.

If the seller had proof that damage wasn't there when he sent the OP the motherboard, then the buyer, by all means, should be able to accept the responsibility and liability of the damaged product he returned. Also, if one is to go by the reputation available for both members, it's fairly reasonable to assume that the OP may not be being truthful about this entire thing.

Disclaimer: I have dealt with neither of these two people before and therefore any claim of bias against one or the other on my behalf is a moot point. Simply calling it as I see it

theplaidfad said:

If the buyer had proof that damage wasn't there when he sent the OP the motherboard, then the buyer, by all means, should be able to accept the responsibility and liability of the damaged product he returned. Also, if one is to go by the reputation available for both members, it's fairly reasonable to assume that the OP may not be being truthful about this entire thing.

Disclaimer: I have dealt with neither of these two people before and therefore any claim of bias against one or the other on my behalf is a moot point. Simply calling it as I see it

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i am pretty sure the buyer is the OP

Fixed, but I know you got what I was saying.

I see some issues on both sides of the argument, but it's like this... if this was Ebay, it wouldn't even be a question. It would be an automatic refund, but I would want the item returned for inspection and possible shipping insurance claim. Well, if it was more than $40 anyway.

And this is why I ALWAYS take a picture of the board posting and working before I sell. And I prefer to sell with CPU's installed and tested. All it takes is 1 bent pin to ruin everyone's day.

Also... Mothman could have used nicer words. Insulting people doesn't usually help the process, regardless of whom is right or wrong.

mothman said:

Nimisys has never accepted the fact that I sent him a PERFECTLY FUNCTIONAL, EXCELLENT CLEAN UNDAMAGED CONDITION MOTHERBOARD and would never have done otherwise. For those above that say Heatware doesn't matter, I'm a long time member with an impeccable reputation https://www.heatware.com/u/77136/to, 203-0-0. NIMISYS HAS BEEN A MEMBER SINCE 2000 AND HAS ONE TOTAL HEATWARE FEEDBACK AND IT'S "NEGATIVE". I've never had a problem with any member in the eight years I've been a member. I'm asking those members who know me to chime in here and come to my defense. For those of you above who call me, 'Scam Artist', 'Dick', 'Unhelpfull', 'BS Attitude' ect. I have never dealt with any of you and you have no right to smear my good name. Also Nimisys failed to include the entire thread here. He sent back the board, I photographed opening it and upon inspection immediately noticed a cluster of scraped, cut traces THAT WERE ABSOLUTELY NOT THERE IN MY POSSESION AND WERE NOT CAUSED BY SHIPPING DAMAGE. The damaged traces are right behind a mounting hole and were caused by dragging the board across a motherboard stand-off. Nimisys refuses to take responsibility for this damage and it could only have occurred while in his possession from careless handling. I offered him a settlement that he didn't even consider. Here's the entire thread and pictures of the damaged motherboard:

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There's more to a reputation than impeccable heat feedback from buyers that haven't had to deal with you when things go wrong. I've read a lot of Nimisys's posts over the years, and he's always been helpful, respectful, and tends to know what he's talking about. That says just as much about someone's character as their heat does. I'm sure that if he had noticed those marks before he ever contacted you he would have probably accepted that he probably caused the problem once you proved they weren't there when you sent it to him.

No one here is smearing your name; you're doing that yourself. You could be selling the most perfect hardware in the world every single time without fail and I still won't deal with you now because if there for was a problem for ANY reason, whether it's my fault or not, I know I won't get the support I should get from you. You could have handled this so much better than you did and continue to do.

With all that he had to do to make sure it wasn't any of his parts that were bad, who's to say the scrapes weren't caused at any point after his initial test?

Also why would you come on here saying the only feedback he has is negative when that's such an easy thing to disprove? That just makes you look even worse.

ryan_975 said:

There's more to a reputation than impeccable heat feedback from buyers that haven't had to deal with you when things go wrong. I've read a lot of Nimisys's posts over the years, and he's always been helpful, respectful, and tends to know what he's talking about. That says just as much about someone's character as their heat does. I'm sure that if he had noticed those marks before he ever contacted you he would have probably accepted that he probably caused the problem once you proved they weren't there when you sent it to him.

No one here is smearing your name; you're doing that yourself. You could be selling the most perfect hardware in the world every single time without fail and I still won't deal with you now because if there for was a problem for ANY reason, whether it's my fault or not, I know I won't get the support I should get from you. You could have handled this so much better than you did and continue to do.

With all that he had to do to make sure it wasn't any of his parts that were bad, who's to say the scrapes weren't caused at any point after his initial test?

Also why would you come on here saying the only feedback he has is negative when that's such an easy thing to disprove? That just makes you look even worse.

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This. The reaction in the posted PMs and this thread say far more than heatwave ever could.

Sorry Mothman but you will end up refunding him sooner or later. Even if Nimisys is lying, just refund him (if you haven't already). At least the board wasn't $100+, I just got scammed by a buyer on Amazon claiming that he never got the $270 CPU I sold him, when clearly tracking indicates that it was delivered at his mailbox. Of course Amazon takes the buyers side and forced me to refund the scammer.

The most important points are being lost here amid the torrent of backlash against me in this kangaroo court of public opinon. I mothman, hence forth referred to as 'Seller' sold to Nimisys, hence forth referred as 'Buyer' did sell an Asus P8Z77-M Pro in Excellent, Undamaged Condition in Perfect working order, Carefully packed and shipped Priority Mail at my expense. The 'Buyer' informed me one week after receiving said motherboard that there was a 'Problem'. I respectfully reminded him that said motherboard was fully functioning when it left my hands and suggested he must be doing something wrong. With no way of knowing exactly what conditions the motherboard was subject to and the 'Buyers' unwillingness to accept any responsibility for the 'Problem' I have been left in this untenable position. I was prepared to issue a refund after testing said motherboard upon receipt from the 'Buyer' that was until the damaged traces were discovered upon my carefully documenting opening and inspecting and photographing the motherboard. Let it also be known that said 'Seller' did offer said 'Buyer' a $50 rufund, half of the $100 selling price if he would accept responsibility in part for the 'Problem' he declined. I rest my case. You may proceed with closing arguments and present the case to the jury for deliberation.

Gavian said:

Sorry Mothman but you will end up refunding him sooner or later. Even if Nimisys is lying, just refund him (if you haven't already). At least the board wasn't $100+, I just got scammed by a buyer on Amazon claiming that he never got the $270 CPU I sold him, when clearly tracking indicates that it was delivered at his mailbox. Of course Amazon takes the buyers side and forced me to refund the scammer.

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Yeah if it's over a certain amount or if I have any suspicions that it's a shady buyer (low feedback) I have been forced into requiring a signature due to the scammers. Sorry to hear about that amazon situation but you almost always expect on there or ebay that 99.99999% of the time they will side with the buyer and screw you.

Furious_Styles said:

Yeah if it's over a certain amount or if I have any suspicions that it's a shady buyer (low feedback) I have been forced into requiring a signature due to the scammers. Sorry to hear about that amazon situation but you almost always expect on there or ebay that 99.99999% of the time they will side with the buyer and screw you.

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This is why I don't sell much of anything online anymore. I'd rather throw it away than ship it to someone and then be forced to give a full refund because they file a claim. Though usually I don't throw it out, I just sell locally or give items away.

In this case, it's only $100. It sucks, but I'd refund the money and move on. Principal or not, as we see here, if you fight it too much you just drag yourself through the mud. WAY easier to refund and forget it.

Jeeezus, what a fucking fiasco. Reading this entire thread makes me want to puke. I can expect shit like this from ebay as I already have several times, but here?

Mothman, you have never shown me pictures of the board prior to shipment, nor anything other than you Heat to show its working condition. I took you on your word about it, and even when it was seemingly DOA, still operated under the principal it was supposed to be working. I have tried to be fair and respectful during this whole ordeal.

Those scrapes are under the audio ports, a spot that my Mobo tray uses a plastic push pin style stand. So yes I am sceptical about them for multiple reasons. One is that it is in an area away from where the source of problems seems to be with the board. Two my Mobo tray should not be capable of making those marks. Three, we do not know if the damage you indicated is present would even cause the concern the board has. However I still presented it honestly, openly and invited comment.

Nimisys said:

Those scrapes are under the audio ports, a spot that my Mobo tray uses a plastic push pin style stand.

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Might be a good idea to snap a picture of this. I'm not saying you are wrong I just don't know if I've ever seen plastic stand offs like that.

mothman, is your impeccable Heatware reputation worth a $100 motherboard?

I'm gonna assume it's not.

Skillz said:

mothman, is your impeccable Heatware reputation worth a $100 motherboard?

I'm gonna assume it's not.

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That's right, mothman. Bend over and take it as if you're a multi-million dollar retailer to whom a $100 loss doesn't matter.

Nimisys said:

Mothman, you have never shown me pictures of the board prior to shipment, nor anything other than you Heat to show its working condition. I took you on your word about it, and even when it was seemingly DOA, still operated under the principal it was supposed to be working. I have tried to be fair and respectful during this whole ordeal.

Those scrapes are under the audio ports, a spot that my Mobo tray uses a plastic push pin style stand. So yes I am sceptical about them for multiple reasons. One is that it is in an area away from where the source of problems seems to be with the board. Two my Mobo tray should not be capable of making those marks. Three, we do not know if the damage you indicated is present would even cause the concern the board has. However I still presented it honestly, openly and invited comment.

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As I told you before, the motherboard runs a self diagnostic sequence at start up and will automatically shut down if a fault is found. Those cut traces will stop the board from powering up, they run near the audio area but may have nothing to do with it. You are trying to say that the motherboard would still function with the cut traces, I doubt it. I will make one last offer here in public just to get this the hell done as I loose no mater what at this point. I loose money and most importantly a damn fine Asus P8Z77M-Pro that I am the original of, used daily for two years without fail, is now a piece of junk and I didn't do it. Here's my offer: I will refund you $60 out of the kindness of my heart if you openly accept responsibility for the demise of the board. If not please file your Paypal dispute, which by it's very nature you accuse me of wrong doing, as you know they will probably side with you anyway, as they always side with the buyer. I've already been tried and convicted here in the court of public opinion so I have absolutely nothing else to loose, you win Nimisys I declare you the winner. And to all the posters who enjoyed defaming me, what a hell of a Tips, Tricks and Trolls Thread for all to drip on. Now go get your mothers slippers and return to your basements, it's over Johnny.

Skillz said:

mothman, is your impeccable Heatware reputation worth a $100 motherboard?

I'm gonna assume it's not.

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Are you mocking me also. join the crowd

mothman you likely didn't sell a bad board.

i know how important heat is to people i have read peoples pages.

it is more than likely physical damage from the buyer.

it sucks you used paypal. they RARELY side with a seller.

good luck to you.

AltTabbins said:

Might be a good idea to snap a picture of this. I'm not saying you are wrong I just don't know if I've ever seen plastic stand offs like that.

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I've seen them and have a few in a parts box with standoffs, screws, backing plates, and various other "might need for a system build" parts.

mothman said:

As I told you before, the motherboard runs a self diagnostic sequence at start up and will automatically shut down if a fault is found. Those cut traces will stop the board from powering up, they run near the audio area but may have nothing to do with it. You are trying to say that the motherboard would still function with the cut traces, I doubt it. I will make one last offer here in public just to get this the hell done as I loose no mater what at this point. I loose money and most importantly a damn fine Asus P8Z77M-Pro that I am the original of, used daily for two years without fail, is now a piece of junk and I didn't do it. Here's my offer: I will refund you $60 out of the kindness of my heart if you openly accept responsibility for the demise of the board. If not please file your Paypal dispute as you know they will probably side with you anyway, as they always side with the buyer.

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To add to this, there are usually power and ground planes embedded in the layers under those traces. If the damage is deep enough it could be shorting out, which will keep the PSU itself from power up at all. As bad as your handling of this issue was, I do not believe that you should be forced to take back a board that was working when you sent it out and is now has physical damage that wasn't there before. This should be Nimisys' board for him to decide which wall it'll look best mounted on.

ryan_975 said:

To add to this, there are usually power and ground planes embedded in the layers under those traces. If the damage is deep enough it could be shorting out, which will keep the PSU itself from power up at all. As bad as your handling of this issue was, I do not believe that you should be forced to take back a board that was working when you sent it out and is now has physical damage that wasn't there before. This should be Nimisys' board for him to decide which wall it'll look best mounted on.

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Oh so after referring to me as a 'Shady as Hell Dick' Judge Ryan is now changing his verdict ?

mothman said:

Oh so after referring to me as a 'Shady as Hell Dick' Judge Ryan is now changing his verdict ?

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The dispute was that you weren't responding after having had the board for some time, were combative, and refused to even acknowledge that there was even the slightest chance that somehow your perfect board wasn't so perfect after all. Turns out that in all likelihood it probably was as perfect as you stated and the buyer damaged the board somehow. So the seller shouldn't be held responsible for that.

I do apologize for saying you were being a dick; apparently that's struck a nerve with you. I still won't ever buy anything from you, though I'm sure that won't be an issue since you likely wouldn't sell to me anyway since I don't have more than a few heat.

Just a quick reminder

If you wish to contribute to someone else's thread, please consider carefully whether your post will answer the thread starters question, or help them resolve their trading problem. If you do not have first hand information concerning a situation, or useful/relevant information DO NOT POST.

Please remember these threads are often dealing with a members actual money or possessions. If your post isn't helpful, then it's just in the way, and an obstacle to them resolving their situation. The moderators and administrators will deal directly with those who simply wish to "jump in and voice their opinion" about issues they are not directly involved in.

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I learned a long time ago on how to sell motherboards. I had the same issue, board was in perfect working condition and buyer claimed I sold him a damaged board. I decided to refund him, eat the cost, and just move on as it was about $60+shipping I was out.

You can argue back and forth and never get anywhere about this. I now will only sell a motherboard with high quality pics taken only seconds before it gets wrapped up. If I was the seller, I would refund, learn from it, and move on. If it was a legitimate fuck up on the buyer and he is putting one over on you, so be it, karma is a bitch. Same with the seller.

I have 6 perfectly working z270 motherboards that I wanted to sell and this is the reason i rather not sell them. I'm a seller and I find very hard to believe the seller shipped a faulty motherboard knowing how easy buyers win cases with paypal. It makes ZERO sense to ship a faulty item when you have experience selling online and paypal ALWAYS side with the buyer so why bother shipping something that the buyer will say is not working?

Buyer is responsible on all this but will win case with paypal anyways. Mothman just refund him and take it on the chin and move on these type of people are not worth fighting for $100.