DAN C4-SFX: The smallest water cooling case in the world

Hi Dondan,

Regarding the C4 is a really nice project but why making it bigger than the A4? The C4 is almost 10L, and the M1 is 12. The difference is not so big, but the M1 is more versatile and can also hold 3 slots high end vga, ATX power supply, multi HD configurations and 2 AIO systems. I love the A4 because is the smallest case in the world but as I see it, even with the second revision it is still not perfect.

I always followed the A4 project with lots of interes but i never moved from my M1 to the A4 because the A4 is missing a proper AIO cooler solution. I dont even consider the Asetek 92mm solution, to much difficult to find and to complicated to install and you have also to consider that you have to take out the USB 3 to install it. If I move to something else from the M1 it would be only for something little like the A4 but with a proper cooling solution for the CPU. Right now the A4 is missing a proper CPU cooling solutions but you dont need to make a bigger case to solve this problem there is plenty room in the A4 to set things up to properly install a 120mm AIO in it wih just few little modifications.

1st step: Put the power supply to the bottom of the case with the fan facing up so it can extract from the case the hot air generated from the CPU and expel it from the side of the case. I think there is no problem doing so because the depth of a sfx power supply is 100mm while your case width is 112mm so for 12mm is enough room for the cables of the power supply. Now considering that your case is 317mm depth and 170mm is taken from the mitx motherboard there is plenty room (147mm) to acomodate the 125mm width of the power supply on it. Now 200 height (A4 case) - 63,5mm height (SFX) = 136,5mm enough space for the shorter side (120mm) of the AIO to be acomodated.

2nd step: Create supports in the case in way to be abble to install the AIO on the top of the power supply just standing next to the side of the mothearboard.

3rd step: put the power button, USB, and Audio connectors in the side of the case like you did in the rendering for the C4 in way that you dont take space from the room needed for the AIO.

In this way you can have a standard 120mm AIO cooling your high end cpu but still keeping the 7,2L of the original Dan Case that is famous for being the smallest in the world.

You do this and i assure you that I will give any money for that case. And finally i will have a reason to sell my M1 case...

12mm is not enough for wires of the SFX PSU. You need a min of 25mm. Furthermore you forget about the power connector of the psu. The Connector needs another 20mm.
So the width must be 145mm and not 112mm.

Also 136mm isn't enough for a 120 AIO. The shortes 120 AIO on market has a length of 150mm.

Silver Hunter said:

1st step: Put the power supply to the bottom of the case with the fan facing up so it can extract from the case the hot air generated from the CPU and expel it from the side of the case. I think there is no problem doing so because the depth of a sfx power supply is 100mm while your case width is 112mm so for 12mm is enough room for the cables of the power supply. Now considering that your case is 317mm depth and 170mm is taken from the mitx motherboard there is plenty room (147mm) to acomodate the 125mm width of the power supply on it. Now 200 height (A4 case) - 63,5mm height (SFX) = 136,5mm enough space for the shorter side (120mm) of the AIO to be acomodated.

Click to expand...

Apart from what dondan said, there's also not enough room under the GPU for the PSU.

Man I really love the design of this case, its absolutely gorgeous and I love the glass side panel with the offset colored side IO. I only have 2 questions really: 1) Will the tempered glass side panel be offered in the initial batch of the Dan C4's and 2) Is there any way really to be able to fit a pump/res combo in the case, just looking at the design I originally wanted to try to go for under the PSU, but the spacing just seems too tight and will likely block the outlets for the radiator.

Thanks and really awesome design, I can't wait until its ready for sale

Necere said:

Apart from what dondan said, there's also not enough room under the GPU for the PSU.

Click to expand...

There is plenty room in the top of the case you can move the vga just few mm up in case is touching the power supply.

dondan said:

12mm is not enough for wires of the SFX PSU. You need a min of 25mm. Furthermore you forget about the power connector of the psu. The Connector needs another 20mm.
So the width must be 145mm and not 112mm.

Also 136mm isn't enough for a 120 AIO. The shortes 120 AIO on market has a length of 150mm.

Click to expand...

Dondan thanks for your fast reply. You are certainly right about the power connector I absolutely forgot about it.

Well if you increase the width of your original A4 of just 13mm getting to the 125mm you can put the power supply facing the motherboard with the wires connectors. The dimension of a SFX-L is 125 mm (W) x 63.5 mm (H) x 130 mm (D) so the 125mm width of the PSU would perfectly fit the 125mm width of the case. This is also a wonderful solution for cable managing, because if you use a silverstone SFX-L as in my case with it you can buy also short cables kit PP05_E that makes perfect match with the lack of space inside of a mini itx case solution.

I dont see the problem about the AIO though. I think you did not got my point. You have to consider that normal AIO's size is arround 155x120x38 the 141,4mm (205mm-63,5mm) is enough for the 120mm shorter AIO's side to be acomodated while for the 155mm side there is no problem it can take the space in front of the motherboard. There is 61mm (48mm+13mm) space betwen the motherboard and the side pannel of the case and 317mm depth in the case. Potentially It would be even possible to install double 120mm or 240mm AIOs (275 x 120 x 27 mm) cos you have 61mm room with the normal case while you have 67.5mm (54.5mm+13mm) height with Window Kit.

And even regarding what you said before is not true that shorter AIO on market is 150mm. There is the MasterLiquid Pro 120 with dimension of 145 x 118.5 x 38 mm (6.1 x 4.7 x 1.5"). Now lets give a look to the AIO specifics in detail.

Aio Specifics:
Water cooling support normal case (61mm):
120mm AIO
· radiator thickness 47mm with 1x 12mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 45mm with 1x 15mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 38mm with 1x 20mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 30mm with 2x 15mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 27mm with 2x 15mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 25mm with 2x 18mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 22mm with 2x 18mm thick fans
240mm AIO
· radiator thickness 47mm with 2x 12mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 45mm with 2x 15mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 38mm with 2x 20mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 30mm with 4x 15mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 27mm with 4x 15mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 25mm with 4x 18mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 22mm with 4x 18mm thick fans
Water cooling support windows kit (67.5mm):
120mm AIO
· radiator thickness 47mm with 1x 20mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 45mm with 1x 20mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 38mm with 1x 25mm or 2x 12mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 30mm with 2x 18mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 27mm with 2x 20mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 25mm with 2x 20mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 22mm with 2x 20mm thick fans
240mm AIO
· radiator thickness 47mm with 2x 20mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 45mm with 2x 20mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 38mm with 2x 25mm or 4x 12mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 30mm with 4x 18mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 27mm with 4x 20mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 25mm with 4x 20mm thick fans
· radiator thickness 22mm with 4x 20mm thick fans

If you consider the fact that 47,45mm AIO gives just marginal benefits I would say that they ar not really needed and in this case you can give some more space to the side of the VGA supporting graphics cards with three slots while in the other side giving support just for radiators with 38,30,27,25,22mm thickness.

Basically it would be like a sandwich, the VGA and the AIO in the respective sides, the motherboard in the center while in the front bottom part of the case would stand the PSU. In this way you would use any possible empty space of the case. Since long time i am thinking about a case with this solution but no one has still made something like this. If i had the know how and the founds I would do it but considering that i am just a normal gaming user is better giving my idea to you. Dondan you are a real professional doing this job and you can easily understand that with this solution the case would be just 13mm more in width from the original A4 but still lot smaller than the C4. Is just 6,5mm increase for each side of the case, impossible for humans to see the difference without misuring it with a meter meanwhile the C4 is sensibly bigger with a size of 242 x 127,5 x 323,6mm.

Specification new A4 idea:
Case Dimensions (H x W x D): 205 x 125 x 327mm
Graphic cards support: Three-Slot up to 295mm length
Motherboard support: Mini-ITX
Power Supply support: SFX, SFX-L
Water cooling support: Dual 120mm (in case you want to use a aio for the gpu and one for the cpu) or single 240mm AIO (just cpu)

Silver Hunter said:

Well if you increase the width of your original A4 of just 13mm getting to the 125mm you can put the power supply facing the motherboard with the wires connectors. The dimension of a SFX-L is 125 mm (W) x 63.5 mm (H) x 130 mm (D) so the 125mm width of the PSU would perfectly fit the 125mm width of the case.

Click to expand...

In a world where we can make cases out of near zero-thickness super strong carbon nanostructure sheets, maybe. Here in the real world, case walls actually take up space. For the A4, that means 1.5mm aluminum, times four, since there are flanges on either side, plus the side panels themselves. So at an absolute minimum you're looking at 131mm.

Anyway, here's a mockup to help visualize the layout you propose:



Clearly, your depth estimate is pretty far off, presumably because you didn't properly account for the cables. Figure more like 350mm, minimum, once all is said and done. At that size, it's over 9L - within spitting distance of the C4. Keeping the volume the same as the A4 just isn't realistic, IMO.

Necere is completely right. I thought about this layout some month ago but came to the result that current design has more benifits. The only possible design that will result in a 8.2L A4 thar can hold a 120 AIO is a flex psu based design.

I/O on top looks cleaner, but personally I still prefer to have it on the side, because it's more unique/original.

Otherwise, why not combining the "best" of two worlds dondan ?

@AIMiDaX: Maybe I will add it to an fourth survey if the current survey will go for panel on side.

Having it on the top looks a little sleeker, but also more generic/boring. I prefer having it on the side, as it gives a nice contrast to the case, adding detail to making it unique looking. I do prefer having it on the left side, with the power button low. I really wish you could just remove the entire front (including side USB/powerbutton) when changing the direction of the inside of the case instead of only the front panel. I'm still concerned about the gap between the front panel and the top panel when reversing the case.

Necere said:

In a world where we can make cases out of near zero-thickness super strong carbon nanostructure sheets, maybe. Here in the real world, case walls actually take up space. For the A4, that means 1.5mm aluminum, times four, since there are flanges on either side, plus the side panels themselves. So at an absolute minimum you're looking at 131mm.

Anyway, here's a mockup to help visualize the layout you propose:

Clearly, your depth estimate is pretty far off, presumably because you didn't properly account for the cables. Figure more like 350mm, minimum, once all is said and done. At that size, it's over 9L - within spitting distance of the C4. Keeping the volume the same as the A4 just isn't realistic, IMO.

Click to expand...

Thanks Necere, your draw is really nice and i really like how it looks. We can still use the SFX that is only 100mm. Remember that the A4 has the clippable sidepanels Push Pin technology. I don't think is going to be more than 130mm at max. So lets see to the specs:

A4 supporting only SFX PSU:
Case Dimensions (H x W x D): 205 x 130 x 327mm, 8,7L
Power Supply support: SFX
Graphic cards support: Three-Slot up to 295mm length
Water cooling support: Dual 120mm (in case you want to use an aio for the gpu and one for the cpu) or single 240mm AIO (just cpu)

A4 supporting also SFX-L PSU:
Case Dimensions (H x W x D): 205 x 130 x 345mm, 9,2L
Power Supply support: SFX, SFX-L
Graphic cards support: Three-Slot up to 330mm length
Water cooling support: Dual 120mm (in case you want to use an aio for the gpu and one for the cpu) or single 240mm AIO (just cpu)

C4 SFX:
Case Dimensions (H x W x D): 242 x 127,5 x 323,6mm, 9.9L
Graphic cards support: Dual-Slot up to 295mm length
Motherboard support: Mini-ITX
Power Supply support: SFX, SFX-L
Water cooling support: 240mm AIO

dondan said:

Necere is completely right. I thought about this layout some month ago but came to the result that current design has more benifits. The only possible design that will result in a 8.2L A4 thar can hold a 120 AIO is a flex psu based design.

Click to expand...

New A4 SFX Supports Three slots VGA while C4 only Dual-Slot
New A4 SFX/SFX-L is 8,7L/9,2L while C4 9,9L
New A4 SFX supports dual 120mm AIO or 240mm AIO while C4 only 240mm AIO
New A4 SFX-L supports 330mm length VGA while C4 only 295mm

I dont see any benefits in the C4 the only thing that I see is just that is bigger than the new A4.

Silver Hunter said:

New A4 SFX/SFX-L is 8,7L/9,2L while C4 9,9L
New A4 SFX supports dual 120mm AIO or 240mm AIO while C4 only 240mm AIO
New A4 SFX-L supports 330mm length VGA while C4 only 295mm

I dont see any benefits in the C4 the only thing that I see is just that is bigger than the new A4.

Click to expand...

The C4 is cheaper, nicer looking, better build quality and provides better airflow throughout the case and components. I would always accept an additional ½ liter of size for that. Also, how would you ever fit a 24cm radiator in that A4? You know there are actual things on the motherboard PCB right? Including both RAM and the cooler/pump on the CPU.

I like that Dan is making an all new unique looking case. Instead of more of the same design (A4/V700).

Notional said:

The C4 is cheaper, nicer looking, better build quality and provides better airflow throughout the case and components. I would always accept an additional ½ liter of size for that. Also, how would you ever fit a 24cm radiator in that A4? You know there are actual things on the motherboard PCB right? Including both RAM and the cooler/pump on the CPU.

I like that Dan is making an all new unique looking case. Instead of more of the same design (A4/V700).

Click to expand...

This is just your personal point of view. What you like or you dont like is about your personal taste. But what I am talking about is the real benefits about the C4. About the 240mm AIO radiator of course is not an easy task to implement it in the new A4, it needs work on it developing the new design but I am positive that in 130mm width there is plenty room to acomodate 27mm thick radiators with fans.

Regarding the benefits of the new A4 design i have to tell you that for gaming users having a small case that gives support for high end VGA cards is really important especially when you do constantly lan parties and you need to move from one place to another. I dont understand for who is targeted the C4? No support for 2,5 or 3 slots VGA, same time almost 10L.

So what's the point? Depending on the needs you can go either for a small case like the A4 V2 or going for a high end gaming ITX case. The C4 is something in the middle but who would use it and for what i still dont get it? Is not so small as the A4 and at the same time is not enough for enthusiast gaming users. And if you want to talk about personal taste to me it looks so much like a scaled ATX case. Is tall and thin it remembers to me a lot the classic design of my old tower ATX case.

Silver Hunter said:

This is just your personal point of view. What you like or you dont like is about your personal taste. But what I am talking about is the real benefits about the C4. About the 240mm AIO radiator of course is not an easy task to implement it in the new A4, it needs work on it developing the new design but I am positive that in 130mm width there is plenty room to acomodate 27mm thick radiators with fans.

Regarding the benefits of the new A4 design i have to tell you that for gaming users having a small case that gives support for high end VGA cards is really important especially when you do constantly lan parties and you need to move from one place to another. I dont understand for who is targeted the C4? No support for 2,5 or 3 slots VGA, same time almost 10L.

So what's the point? Depending on the needs you can go either for a small case like the A4 V2 or going for a high end gaming ITX case. The C4 is something in the middle but who would use it and for what i still dont get it? Is not so small as the A4 and at the same time is not enough for enthusiast gaming users. And if you want to talk about personal taste to me it looks so much like a scaled ATX case. Is tall and thin it remembers to me a lot the classic design of my old tower ATX case.

Click to expand...

One more time: How would you fit a radiator + fans + ram + 2-3 slot GPU on 13cm? Look how far these ram stick out, and you want to add 5+cm to that?


13cm width is never going to cut it.

The C4 supports 2½ slot GPU's, so that is pretty much all mid to high end GPU's except the most insane ones you would never get in an ITX build anyways. I don't see the issue there.

I would use the C4. I like the design better than the A4 (same overall style as my Lian Li v700) and I like the better coolig solution/airflow, lower price and more features than the A4. It's still one of the smallest cases on the market and a great alternative to the Ncase M1, which isn't as nice looking (but a bit more practical perhaps) as the C4.

Also what do you mean the C4 is tall and thin like an ATX case? The A4 is "tall" and thin, just look at the image above.

Silver Hunter dude why are you so "aggressive"?

1) The C4-SFX support both 2" and 2.5" cards, as you can see below.



2) Talking about benefits... the C4 is surely bigger than the A4, but the large size makes it easier to build on, it's a lot cheaper than the A4, it has a different design, it has more I/O ports, it can be flipped 180°, etc. all this for a 27% increase in size. Don't forget, even with 9.9 liters the C4 is still a crazy small case.

3) You should post your ideas for the A4 on its thread, I'm sure you'll get more feedback from people who own the A4.

4) If you really don't like the C4 and find the A4 too limiting you can still try to make your own case, load up something like SketchUp and prove dondan and Necere wrong

AlMiDaX said:

Silver Hunter dude why are you so "aggressive"?

1) The C4-SFX support both 2" and 2.5" cards, as you can see below.

2) Talking about benefits... the C4 is surely bigger than the A4, but the large size makes it easier to build on, it's a lot cheaper than the A4, it has a different design, it has more I/O ports, it can be flipped 180°, etc. all this for a 27% increase in size. Don't forget, even with 9.9 liters the C4 is still a crazy small case.

3) You should post your ideas for the A4 on its thread, I'm sure you'll get more feedback from people who own the A4.

4) If you really don't like the C4 and find the A4 too limiting you can still try to make your own case, load up something like SketchUp and prove dondan and Necere wrong

Click to expand...

Ops sorry, I did not meant to be agressive. I never said that Necere and Dondan are wrong. I am just trying to gues and give Ideas. But of course i dont have the same know how I am maybe just dreaming to have something that cannot be done. I will not say anithing else about this and I will follow in silence the development of the C4. Thank you all for any of your delucidations. You helped me a lot understanding things out.

AlMiDaX said:

I/O on top looks cleaner, but personally I still prefer to have it on the side, because it's more unique/original.

Otherwise, why not combining the "best" of two worlds dondan ?

Click to expand...

This is so very lovely...

Personally this works for me, but I imagine you'd have to make this flippable from left/right fur users where RHS access will be difficult?

Chapeau I have my case on the right as well.

Flipping the I/O left to right, could be a great solution. The only issue is that the case will need to have the exact same cutout on both sides.

Another possible solution comes built in by the case: flip the whole thing 180* degrees (having the radiatior on top).

dondan it just occurred to me that you're using a single-piece, wraparound cover, correct? Have you cleared that with LL? Because normally without specialized tooling the press brake can't get in to make the bends in a deep 'C' shape like that.

Necere:
Yes you are right. I am thinking of making two (top+left & right) or three (left & top & right) pieces out of it. Specially for this design it is neccessary to give 180° rotate support:
But making it out of three pieces i will have hard corners (top & bottom side) and not round corners.

If I will go for a single piece I will pay tooling. Tooling on a quantity of 1000+ cases is ok

AlMiDaX said:

Chapeau I have my case on the right as well.

Flipping the I/O left to right, could be a great solution. The only issue is that the case will need to have the exact same cutout on both sides.

Another possible solution comes built in by the case: flip the whole thing 180* degrees (having the radiation on top).

Click to expand...

Two ideas:
- Place all IO connectors front facing but recessed and underneath the case. Would require taller case feet for the to clear the desk and a modular block to mount the connectors.

Advantages: Works for left/right and up/down configurations. Looks very clean. Aids in air flow.
Disadvantages: Maybe difficult to access. Requires some novel production piece to both mount these connectors in, and to attach the the main chassis

- Manufacture small vanity cover for unused side, grouping all connections into a module that can be simply swapped from left to right.

Advantages: More simple to manufacture, easier integration into case.
Disadvantages: Requires some novel attachment for vanity plate.

AlMiDaX said:

I/O on top looks cleaner, but personally I still prefer to have it on the side, because it's more unique/original.

Otherwise, why not combining the "best" of two worlds dondan ?

Click to expand...

I really like this..dondan put it in the poll!! Having said that, no matter what, I like the side ports more than the top ones

I vote for I/O on the side. This won't leave a chance for a cat or something to turn off your PC

dantata said:

I vote for I/O on the side. This won't leave a chance for a cat or something to turn off your PC

Click to expand...

If that something is a curious kid, I/O on top will be safer

Ah, didn't think of that

dondan said:

Necere:
Yes you are right. I am thinking of making two (top+left & right) or three (left & top & right) pieces out of it. Specially for this design it is neccessary to give 180° rotate support:

But making it out of three pieces i will have hard corners (top & bottom side) and not round corners.

If I will go for a single piece I will pay tooling. Tooling on a quantity of 1000+ cases is ok

Click to expand...

Bummer, I guess these are the inconveniences in the "design VS production" phase.

If you think that having specialized tooling is somehow possible, you should at least try to get a quote from LL. If the price it's not crazy high (hopefully), you may think to add "custom tooling" as a stretch goal on KS eventually.

Tomorrow I will restart the last poll with three options:



(click for 4K)

A special thank to AlMiDaX for the idea on the new option.

dondan said:

Tomorrow I will restart the last poll with three options....

Click to expand...

Have we resolved what happens in case option 3 on the end? Will this be single sided? Double sided?
- It matters to those like myself who would only consider a top (or bottom only) radiator placement. Flipping the case upside down to access the IO for a particular side may preclude this option for us...

dondan said:

Tomorrow I will restart the last poll with three options:



(click for 4K)

A special thank to AlMiDaX for the idea on the new option.

Click to expand...

All of those designs look nice and very clean, but I think the middle one will be best in terms of ergonomics. In 1st and 3rd option you have to pick on which side of your monitor you will install your PC, to not have cables lying in front of the case and to not have to reach to the other side with your USB devices when you need to plug in something (or maybe you will have 2 USB panels on both sides?). Also side connectors have a dissadvantage when you have those IKEA desks with special wooden "slot" for your PC-case. You can even damage this USB panel while sliding the whole case in, or in other situations. Maybe 1st option with the USB panel at the top (something like in 2nd option)? Just my 2 cents...

ZombiPL & Chapeau:
Please keep in mind that all versions will allow to flip the case.

For the side I/O versions you have the option to have the I/O on the left side if the radiator is on the top side or on the right side if the radiator is on the bottom. So the case will follow your desk setup and not the other way. I will design the outer parts in that way that rotating is still possible.

For the top I/O version the i/o is moveable so after rotating it will be still on top.

dondan said:

ZombiPL & Chapeau:
Please keep in mind that all versions will allow to flip the case.

For the side I/O versions you have the option to have the I/O on the left side if the radiator is on the top side or on the right side if the radiator is on the bottom. So the case will follow your desk setup and not the other way. I will design the outer parts in that way that rotating is still possible.

For the top I/O version the i/o is moveable so after rotating it will be still on top.

Click to expand...

So if you will decide you want to change your desk's layout and for example move the case from the left to the right side of monitor, you will need to just unscrew the cover, rotate the case upside down and then again screw the cover? It means, with the 3rd design will the top cover have 2 symmetrical cuts for USB panel? Or maybe you will have to rearrange the whole PC installation inside C4, to get your USB ports towards your monitor when you will decide to change your case's position?
I know it is a silly problem, but it exists. Sorry for bothering...

For i/o on the side:
Step 1.: remove the outer panel.
Step 2.: remove case feets
Step 3.: flip the case 180°
Step 4.: reinstall case feets and panel

So yes the cutout will be on both sides if i made the outer panel out of one piece. If I made it out of two pieces the panel on the i/o side will be one part and top and the other side the second part. Than it will be possible to have the cutout only on one side.

For a Window Kit option only the second piece version will work. Maybe I will do both version. One piece for a none window kit version and two pieces for a window kit version.

For the top i/o version the outer panel must have air holes on both sides to make rotation possible.

AlMiDaX said:

Hey dondan for this version maybe you should consider to remove a few lines of vent holes (looks nicer imho)

Click to expand...

and a voice of dissent. I prefer it the original with the holes.

What about leaving the IO on top but having them behind a small door, e.g. like on the top of some Lian Li cases:



This would allow for the cleanest aesthetic IMO and keep the ports free of dust.

I think the current options look much cleaner compared to that slot. I think if the hinges were on the inside and the finish matches then it would be ideal.

I think you may want to re-word the survey. As it is, unless people fully read your post (which many won't), they may select the inverse of what they actually want.