Nobel Winner Says Bitcoin “Ought to Be Outlawed”

nysmo said:
Companies like Visa and Paypal arent really conducting a full fledged authorized and validated transaction. They are essentially giving money on credit. Thats why you can cancel/reverse/game charges to scam the system. You cant scam bitcoin. Once the trasnaction is done it is done. It is the equivalent of handing someone cash in hand. Paypent processors are basically writing a postdated check hoping it clears.
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So Visa and Paypal do not eventually verify every transaction? Of course they do, you have credit limits which Visa authorizes for quick, as in second transactions - then Visa makes sure you are up to date on paying them. In the end they can sustain such a large volume of transfers that all Cryptocurrencies combined could not even remotely match the transaction rate. Meaning if Cryptocurrencies were to become even more of a currency they will need third parties - wait - that is exactly what they have now as in like Coinbase :D. If everyone would use Bitcoin and in fact every Cryptocurrency out there it would be totally inadequate to support the transactions over the internet and the different sellers would go out of business.
 
nysmo said:
Companies like Visa and Paypal arent really conducting a full fledged authorized and validated transaction. They are essentially giving money on credit. Thats why you can cancel/reverse/game charges to scam the system. You cant scam bitcoin. Once the trasnaction is done it is done. It is the equivalent of handing someone cash in hand. Paypent processors are basically writing a postdated check hoping it clears.
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Um, I'd wager that the scam rate for VISA/MC/Paypal is significantly less than for bitcoin. And while you apparently don't like reversibility, it is one of the fundamental requirements for an actual functioning monetary transaction system. There is a reason that scammers don't take paypal or credit cards generally.
 
aaronspink said:
Um, I'd wager that the scam rate for VISA/MC/Paypal is significantly less than for bitcoin. And while you apparently don't like reversibility, it is one of the fundamental requirements for an actual functioning monetary transaction system. There is a reason that scammers don't take paypal or credit cards generally.
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VISA probably loses a billion dollars in a year in fraudulent transactions, it's just the cost of doing business for them to offer the illusion of instant payments for every terminal card swipe. I dont understand how you think reversible payments is a requirement for a functional transaction system. How is me giving you money, getting a physical product in return, then me getting my money back and keeping the product beneficial to anyone? Scammers dont take paypal precisely because it is easy to get counter-scammed, they know how it works. You cant scam anyone through bitcoin at all, what are you talking about? It's a currency just like a dollar bill. VISA is not a currency, Paypal is not a currency. If I hand you a dollar bill it is now in your wallet and I cant get it back without mugging you. If I use a 3rd party to give you the promise of a dollar (paypal/visa) there are a dozen ways in which that dollar never really reaches your wallet.
 
noko said:
So Visa and Paypal do not eventually verify every transaction? Of course they do, you have credit limits which Visa authorizes for quick, as in second transactions - then Visa makes sure you are up to date on paying them. In the end they can sustain such a large volume of transfers that all Cryptocurrencies combined could not even remotely match the transaction rate. Meaning if Cryptocurrencies were to become even more of a currency they will need third parties - wait - that is exactly what they have now as in like Coinbase :D. If everyone would use Bitcoin and in fact every Cryptocurrency out there it would be totally inadequate to support the transactions over the internet and the different sellers would go out of business.
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Keyword there, EVENTUALLY. There is no "eventually" with bitcoin just like there is no "eventually" with cash. Once it's yours it's yours. The only way cryptocurrencies could match the fake transaction rate of credit cards is if people started giving BTC based on credit. It's easy to process 20,000 transactions per second when you dont even really know if the money is there or not. And coinbase is not a 3rd party BTC provider, they are an exchange, like a store where you buy bitcoin. You dont need Coinbase for anything. You could create a new BTC wallet right now without them and I could send you BTC and presto, you're now the proud owner of some BTC without ever touching coinbase in the first place.
 
nysmo said:
VISA probably loses a billion dollars in a year in fraudulent transactions, it's just the cost of doing business for them to offer the illusion of instant payments for every terminal card swipe. I dont understand how you think reversible payments is a requirement for a functional transaction system. How is me giving you money, getting a physical product in return, then me getting my money back and keeping the product beneficial to anyone? Scammers dont take paypal precisely because it is easy to get counter-scammed, they know how it works. You cant scam anyone through bitcoin at all, what are you talking about? It's a currency just like a dollar bill. VISA is not a currency, Paypal is not a currency. If I hand you a dollar bill it is now in your wallet and I cant get it back without mugging you. If I use a 3rd party to give you the promise of a dollar (paypal/visa) there are a dozen ways in which that dollar never really reaches your wallet.
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The overall fraud rate for VISA is literally in the noise. And it is easy to scam with bitcoin: don't deliver the goods/services paid for.

nysmo said:
Keyword there, EVENTUALLY. There is no "eventually" with bitcoin just like there is no "eventually" with cash. Once it's yours it's yours. The only way cryptocurrencies could match the fake transaction rate of credit cards is if people started giving BTC based on credit. It's easy to process 20,000 transactions per second when you dont even really know if the money is there or not. And coinbase is not a 3rd party BTC provider, they are an exchange, like a store where you buy bitcoin. You dont need Coinbase for anything. You could create a new BTC wallet right now without them and I could send you BTC and presto, you're now the proud owner of some BTC without ever touching coinbase in the first place.
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That's not verifying a transaction, that's completing the money transfer, the two are not the same.
 
f*** him.
i've only got a Bachelor's in economics... but i'd bet 10,000 Litoshi that Milton Friedman would LOVE cryptos.... BECAUSE of the lack of oversight and externalities that would skew the market.

that being said, exchanges (i'm looking at you coinbase) are already working with the us.gov to identify coin users, if you're using one of those big public exchanges and not using TOR, you're wrong...

BTC: 1HmoWnXkbddGELTH2V9zrbPHeGk8HR225x
LTC: La6qwEVT52agaTRgPAxYm1dpjnMpyard38
 
nysmo said:
You cant scam anyone through bitcoin at all, what are you talking about?
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Well that just blew you up, you can absolutely scam bitcoin, you can scam cash, you can scam anything that does not have a built check/balance system (those refunds you hate). Its called hey buddy, I have a $20,000 wedding ring i need to offload because my wife died/left, I'll just take 1 bitcoin for it and I'll ship it to you...

And your rants about visa/mc/amex, you clearly have no idea how the verification system works and have conflated it with the transfer system. Source - I insure credit card processors.
 
Aireoth said:
Well that just blew you up, you can absolutely scam bitcoin, you can scam cash, you can scam anything that does not have a built check/balance system (those refunds you hate). Its called hey buddy, I have a $20,000 wedding ring i need to offload because my wife died/left, I'll just take 1 bitcoin for it and I'll ship it to you...

And your rants about visa/mc/amex, you clearly have no idea how the verification system works and have conflated it with the transfer system. Source - I insure credit card processors.
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Failing to send someone a package after receiving bitcoin is not some flaw with bitcoin as you seem to indicate. When I say scam via bitcoin I mean sending someone bitcoin and then somehow unsending it like you can with credit cards/paypal transactions. The bitcoin itself is not the scam.
 
nysmo said:
Keyword there, EVENTUALLY. There is no "eventually" with bitcoin just like there is no "eventually" with cash. Once it's yours it's yours. The only way cryptocurrencies could match the fake transaction rate of credit cards is if people started giving BTC based on credit. It's easy to process 20,000 transactions per second when you dont even really know if the money is there or not. And coinbase is not a 3rd party BTC provider, they are an exchange, like a store where you buy bitcoin. You dont need Coinbase for anything. You could create a new BTC wallet right now without them and I could send you BTC and presto, you're now the proud owner of some BTC without ever touching coinbase in the first place.
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Which mean VISA and other financial institutions can do the transaction rates needed to sustain an economy. Currently Cryptocurrencies are incapable of any significant number of transactions in a period of time - meaning you would need third party financial institutions in order to use Cryptocurrencies - back to square one :ROFLMAO:. Also your saying not a 3rd party in the scheme of things between you and the buyer when converting currency to something more usable??? I just beg to differ with you. Even the internet type wallets are 3rd party type banks which holds your funds/currency/money. Except you don't have the protections you have with a normal bank or banking system.

Still, the blockchain technology puts computing power rate that makes the fastest supercomputers look slow - so there is a huge potential here to use it in an application type markets that has incredible value.
 
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nysmo said:
Failing to send someone a package after receiving bitcoin is not some flaw with bitcoin as you seem to indicate. When I say scam via bitcoin I mean sending someone bitcoin and then somehow unsending it like you can with credit cards/paypal transactions. The bitcoin itself is not the scam.
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No but it shows it utter weakness in using it. I can cancel, get my money back etc. with my Visa with virtually very little questions asked. How would that ever be implemented with Bitcoin transactions? You would have to have yet another 3rd party to insure the transactions which would have a cost or transaction fee attached (does not exist yet as far as I know and how viable for an insurer to risk that is another thing) with zero government protections.
 
noko said:
No but it shows it utter weakness in using it. I can cancel, get my money back etc. with my Visa with virtually very little questions asked. How would that ever be implemented with Bitcoin transactions? You would have to have yet another 3rd party to insure the transactions which would have a cost or transaction fee attached (does not exist yet as far as I know and how viable for an insurer to risk that is another thing) with zero government protections.
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Therein lies our difference of opinion. Whereas you see reversible transactions as a strength, I see them as a weakness and vice versa :)

The truth is I'm sure there are companies considering insuring/crediting BTC transactions as we speak, if not to add peace of mind to payments then to just speed up transactions as they pick up mass.
 
Well I may just lost about $900 from Nicehash, possible hack. They have been down for over 10 hours and no real communication from them. Maybe a grab the money and run. 60 million has been transferred to a one BTC account or traced to one account from them. lol, no insurance, government protection here. Was just about ready to transfer to Coinbase. Will see as time goes on.
 
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