Paradise Papers: Apple’s Secret Tax Bolthole Revealed

this may be naive, but it seems like The Fairtax would deal with this pretty well. all taxes are only on finished new product and at the point of sale collected at that time. online sales i'm not sure about - i would hope collected in the country of the customer.
 
illram said:
Alright so I'm the only one who read that as "Apple's Secret Tax Butthole?" I'll go ahead and show myself out...
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I sure did....Its subliminal advertising to make us buy butt plugs & apples :shifty:
 
BlueFireIce said:
What tax increase? Nothing is being paid to Amazon, the incentives are NON REFUNDABLE tax credits, meaning Amazon just gets to keep the money they have rightfully earned. The 50,000 jobs are not short term construction, those are long term and all the tax credits, which is part of the EDGE tax credit (available to anyone, not just Amazon) are linked to payroll taxes, meaning if they don't make or keep those jobs they do not receive the tax credits. I don't think you understand the size of Amazon, as HQ2 is planned to be the equal of their current HQ, which supports over 40,000 jobs right now. There will be an ADDITIONAL 53,000 construction and secondary jobs as well. They (Amazon) are investing $3.7B into construction and infrastructure in the area and and paying 43 million into the public transportation workers benefits fund and so on and so on.

What you are saying is you don't know anything about the plan, the tax incentives, or impact to the economy or jobs, but you do know you hate corporations, so BAD BAD EVIL!!!

As for the NFL, I don't remember saying a single thing about them, and cities pay out right money (not just tax incentives) to them, which is wholly different and beyond the scope of what government should be using tax dollars for.
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Do you understand that The states are enticing and bidding to get them to come build which mean these incentives are going to cost someone somewhere......and it sure as hell not going to cost amazon....So what you are saying here BluefireIce is that corporations are not doing any bad at all? So Apple can dodge taxes all they want because they are employing people? Amazon can build where ever they want and choose to do some where they get the best tax breaks? Read between the lines man, tax incentives means they don't have to pay taxes like they should.....

I brought up the NFL because that's exactly what i'm talking about the Gov doesn't do anything but the NFL makes billions per year and the owners can build buildings and put the tax payers on the hook for it because the government lets them...GREED that's all this is.
 
SomeoneElse said:
Do you understand that The states are enticing and bidding to get them to come build which mean these incentives are going to cost someone somewhere......and it sure as hell not going to cost amazon....So what you are saying here BluefireIce is that corporations are not doing any bad at all? So Apple can dodge taxes all they want because they are employing people? Amazon can build where ever they want and choose to do some where they get the best tax breaks? Read between the lines man, tax incentives means they don't have to pay taxes like they should.....

I brought up the NFL because that's exactly what i'm talking about the Gov doesn't do anything but the NFL makes billions per year and the owners can build buildings and put the tax payers on the hook for it because the government lets them...GREED that's all this is.
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Ohhh, so you are the type that someone can't have something or more than someone else, without screwing someone else over. A common but very mistaken mindset.

There is no "cost" to anyone, Amazon is just being allowed to keep the money it has earned and created. What you are suggesting is that you would rather not collect the taxes, because Amazon never comes and offers jobs, local economic growth, and support for other business and a genuine gain in wealth for the area, rather than not collecting the taxes and getting all of the above. As those are the options, one, Amazon gets no tax incentives from the state/city, in which case they never come and you still collect ZERO extra taxes, you get no jobs, no local economic growth, etc etc. However if they do come, they get tax incentives for a few years, you get 53,000 short term jobs and 50,000 long term jobs, local growth and the collection of income taxes from those 100,000 new workers, taxes from the secondary companies in the area that build everything, sales taxes, etc etc

For the area you bolded and underlined, I have no idea why as it deals neither with Apple or Amazon, but rather the NFL, which has nothing to do with either and you seemed very confused about this. One (the NFL) gets paid and makes money from the state, and even has stadiums built with tax dollars in many cases, the other, such as Amazon does not get paid anything and receives no tax dollars, they are only allowed to keep more of the money they rightfully make.
 
BlueFireIce said:
The wording of "loophole" is just horrible, and shows a total lack of understanding by most people, yet these same people, if they know of a legal way to save money on buying an item, or paying their own taxes, they do it, but when a company does it, it's a "loophole". No, it's not, its the law and they are trying to maximize their savings, like any good business would. If they don't like the way the law is written, then have it changed, but they really need to stop with this "loophole" BS.

And what fair share would that be? I hear this all the time, but no number is ever given or even explained as to why. You also do understand they DO pay their legal share right? With an effective rate of almost 30%, Apple, which reserved $15.8 billion for income taxes on $59 billion in operating income and that is just income taxes! Not the host of others they have to pay as well. Yes, lets tax them an even more "fair share" so they move EVERYTHING out of the US and we lose even more jobs. Rather than wanting to tax our economy to death, how about we show this same out rage to government spending.
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No shortage of the numbers in the fucking article for you:

"This allowed Apple to funnel all its sales outside of the Americas - currently about 55% of its revenue - through Irish subsidiaries that were effectively stateless for taxation purposes, and so incurred hardly any tax.

Instead of paying Irish corporation tax of 12.5%, or the US rate of 35%, Apple's avoidance structure helped it reduce its tax rate on profits outside of the US to the extent that its foreign tax payments rarely amounted to more than 5% of its foreign profits, and in some years dipped below 2%.

The European Commission calculated the rate of tax for one of Apple's Irish companies for one year had been just 0.005%."

No shortage of intentions in the fucking article for you:

"Apple chose Jersey, a UK Crown dependency that makes its own tax laws and which has a 0% corporate tax rate for foreign companies.

Paradise Papers documents show Apple's two key Irish subsidiaries, Apple Operations International (AOI), believed to hold most of Apple's massive $252bn overseas cash hoard, and Apple Sales International (ASI), were managed from Appleby's office in Jersey from the start of 2015 until early 2016.

This would have enabled Apple to continue avoiding billions in tax around the world."



Yes, yes, all Perfectly Fucking Legal, which is your only argument, it's not right, the legality is written upon corruption, not everyone can take advantage of this corruption, but I blame the consumers and government as much as the corps for this mess, everyone is out for themselves and that's why it can't be sustained. Capitalism is the best system I've seen in society so far, Crony Capitalism is the corruption of it. Humanity has to change!

and BTW, "loophole" is a perfectly good and understandable word, if it helps you to understand, consider it "legal" and the dictionary makes it the "law", that seems to be your go to ;)
 
Our government is a bloated, inefficient, and insatiable beast. Until such a time that that is no longer true, I support companies doing whatever they can to limit the amount of money the government seizes from them.
 
I wonder how many people will cry about Apple doing this then purchase an item at an online store that is out of state to save on sales tax? IME most people. And by the same measure I wonder why it is we are so hell bent on taxing corporations anyway. Ultimately at the end of the day the major point of taxes is to supply the people with government services. So by that measure all taxes should be levied against people not corporations. The companies are simply a vehicle for production. So why don't we do this? One reason is because we are greedy, how ironic is it that people are accusing the corps of being greedy while they themselves with to push their own tax burden off on a companies, which will in turn pass those taxes on to the consumers.
 
rudy said:
I wonder how many people will cry about Apple doing this then purchase an item at an online store that is out of state to save on sales tax? IME most people. And by the same measure I wonder why it is we are so hell bent on taxing corporations anyway. Ultimately at the end of the day the major point of taxes is to supply the people with government services. So by that measure all taxes should be levied against people not corporations. The companies are simply a vehicle for production. So why don't we do this? One reason is because we are greedy, how ironic is it that people are accusing the corps of being greedy while they themselves with to push their own tax burden off on a companies, which will in turn pass those taxes on to the consumers.
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No.
If we are going to play the corporations are people my friend then lets play. Corporations undeniably get back more than what they put in currently... The amounts of money the some are piling on are doing no one any good.. in the long run not even to them. That money would be better off balancing budgets a bit, curving down deficit.. that would slowly slowly build trust on the dollar, ... Trust is erroding very fast right now.
 
Good for Apple for finding a legal way to save money. Apple is a corporation doing what a corporation should: make as much money as possible. All of the share holders of Apple appreciates this loophole.

The problem isn't companies. The companies are doing what is allowed. If you want to fix this then the tax loopholes need to be closed. Blame the government, not corporate America.
 
Uvaman2 said:
No.
If we are going to play the corporations are people my friend then lets play. Corporations undeniably get back more than what they put in currently... The amounts of money the some are piling on are doing no one any good.. in the long run not even to them. That money would be better off balancing budgets a bit, curving down deficit.. that would slowly slowly build trust on the dollar, ... Trust is erroding very fast right now.
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I don't know anything about your claim that corporations get more than they put in. You are welcome to cite credible evidence.

You are not seeing my point. Lets say I go out tomorrow and I want to buy a hamburger but I decide that because I have the ability I am going to vote to make some other random guy in the McDonalds pay for my hamburger. Does that make any sense? Most people do not understand that there are only 2 reasons companies are taxed. One is because voters want to pass the buck to someone else in the hamburger example. The second is enforcement, it would be nearly impossible to enforce taxes of most types on the people because they would just lie, ironically just like corporations and say they are only making a small amount. By taxing both parties the 2 parties check on each other. The corporations wants to make their costs to pay employees high so they pay less taxes, the employees want to make their income less so they pay less taxes. But if both of them are countering each other then they cant lie, because the other with tell on them. So that is the real reason that most countries settle on taxing companies. Because its a more centralized organization that is easier to audit and enforce then millions of individuals.

I think in general Americans should try to understand this once they do then they will know how to really structure tax rules. The companies provide jobs, jobs that can often be outsourced. Put to much of a burden on them and they will leave. You need to make corporate taxed just high enough that the company still doesn't want to lie on behalf of employees. But you don't want them so high, that they are hiding money off shore, or just plain moving out of the country. All the rest of the taxes should be levied on the people as they are the major recipients of the taxes. And ultimately a company is not a citizen and the government doesn't represent or service companies they do those things for the citizens.
 
rudy said:
I wonder how many people will cry about Apple doing this then purchase an item at an online store that is out of state to save on sales tax? IME most people. And by the same measure I wonder why it is we are so hell bent on taxing corporations anyway. Ultimately at the end of the day the major point of taxes is to supply the people with government services. So by that measure all taxes should be levied against people not corporations. The companies are simply a vehicle for production. So why don't we do this? One reason is because we are greedy, how ironic is it that people are accusing the corps of being greedy while they themselves with to push their own tax burden off on a companies, which will in turn pass those taxes on to the consumers.
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Looks like someone missed the whole corporate use of Amendment 14 that made them a "legal person", which in fact carried it all the way to the recent Supreme court decision for "Citizen's United" which struck down as unconstitutional a federal law prohibiting corporations and unions from making expenditures in connection with federal elections. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_(organization)

Yes rudy, they are "people". The "companies and unions" are neck deep in legislation and they have a FUCK load more money than you or I to get the laws they want, by buying the politicians, because again, they have a FUCK load more money. Yes, everybody is greedy, everybody wants theirs, almost everybody is culpable to the status quo in this world. The game of Monopoly is being played on humanity scale.

Corruption unleashed! Caught up now?

rudy said "And ultimately a company is not a citizen and the government doesn't represent or service companies they do those things for the citizens."

This is so fucking hilarious, I can only figure you just came out from under a rock, for fucks sake man! Companies and Unions buy the government.

EDIT: and what corporations get away with that you or I can't is "accountability". Corporations pull shit (let's use Equifax as a currently running example), they just point fingers, make excuses and are rarely held to any accountability (sometimes because a single person within the corporation or union can't be identified as the culprit), they just pay a fine, pay a politician, etc. and guess where that money comes from. If you or I did it, the authorities will know who pulled the shit and unless you could afford a politician or had clout to pay a fine to the best legal system money can buy, guess where you wind up.

Most corporations are not in it for society, they're in it for the payoff.
 
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rudy said:
I don't know anything about your claim that corporations get more than they put in. You are welcome to cite credible evidence.

You are not seeing my point. Lets say I go out tomorrow and I want to buy a hamburger but I decide that because I have the ability I am going to vote to make some other random guy in the McDonalds pay for my hamburger. Does that make any sense? Most people do not understand that there are only 2 reasons companies are taxed. One is because voters want to pass the buck to someone else in the hamburger example. The second is enforcement, it would be nearly impossible to enforce taxes of most types on the people because they would just lie, ironically just like corporations and say they are only making a small amount. By taxing both parties the 2 parties check on each other. The corporations wants to make their costs to pay employees high so they pay less taxes, the employees want to make their income less so they pay less taxes. But if both of them are countering each other then they cant lie, because the other with tell on them. So that is the real reason that most countries settle on taxing companies. Because its a more centralized organization that is easier to audit and enforce then millions of individuals.

I think in general Americans should try to understand this once they do then they will know how to really structure tax rules. The companies provide jobs, jobs that can often be outsourced. Put to much of a burden on them and they will leave. You need to make corporate taxed just high enough that the company still doesn't want to lie on behalf of employees. But you don't want them so high, that they are hiding money off shore, or just plain moving out of the country. All the rest of the taxes should be levied on the people as they are the major recipients of the taxes. And ultimately a company is not a citizen and the government doesn't represent or service companies they do those things for the citizens.
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I get where you are coming from, i really do, but you are completely wrong.
You are applying an interpretation of a person's economic rules and regulations to higher economic spheres. Basically for us individuals the rule is ' i have this much monies' .. that might be true also for small and smallish business.. Im talking about big, billions big, and banks and shit.. the rules change... I mean it literally, you can't think in terms of how things look to you as an individual.. these businesses, piling on the billions in excess are protected, diplomatically, militarily.. shit big banks get to get more money each year for no reason other than being big big banks. There is no reason not to balance our deficits off the backs of these company's accounts.. it is way worse to do so off the backs of working Americans.. that's a direct hit to economic activity.. billions sitting in tax dodging companies is doing nothing for anyone.
 
RayderR6 said:
No shortage of the numbers in the fucking article for you:

"This allowed Apple to funnel all its sales outside of the Americas - currently about 55% of its revenue - through Irish subsidiaries that were effectively stateless for taxation purposes, and so incurred hardly any tax.

Instead of paying Irish corporation tax of 12.5%, or the US rate of 35%, Apple's avoidance structure helped it reduce its tax rate on profits outside of the US to the extent that its foreign tax payments rarely amounted to more than 5% of its foreign profits, and in some years dipped below 2%.

The European Commission calculated the rate of tax for one of Apple's Irish companies for one year had been just 0.005%."

No shortage of intentions in the fucking article for you:

"Apple chose Jersey, a UK Crown dependency that makes its own tax laws and which has a 0% corporate tax rate for foreign companies.

Paradise Papers documents show Apple's two key Irish subsidiaries, Apple Operations International (AOI), believed to hold most of Apple's massive $252bn overseas cash hoard, and Apple Sales International (ASI), were managed from Appleby's office in Jersey from the start of 2015 until early 2016.

This would have enabled Apple to continue avoiding billions in tax around the world."



Yes, yes, all Perfectly Fucking Legal, which is your only argument, it's not right, the legality is written upon corruption, not everyone can take advantage of this corruption, but I blame the consumers and government as much as the corps for this mess, everyone is out for themselves and that's why it can't be sustained. Capitalism is the best system I've seen in society so far, Crony Capitalism is the corruption of it. Humanity has to change!

and BTW, "loophole" is a perfectly good and understandable word, if it helps you to understand, consider it "legal" and the dictionary makes it the "law", that seems to be your go to ;)
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So what you are saying is that The USA should control the world? You do understand what you quoted are sales outside of America right? America has no claims to that money unless they bring it back into the country, which is why Apple and many others keep this money overseas, so they do not get double taxed on it, they then move it to countries with low tax rates so they are not penalized just for having cash on hand. This is a prime example of high tax rates in America keeping out money and investment from coming back home.

I see no reason for the anger, Apple was smart and chose locations with low tax rates, any business man worth his salt would do the same, as would anyone else here. However, in any case, you are still talking about overseas sales, which the US has zero claim to.

And as for Europe, they are just wanting to stick their nose in a member states choices, it is the EC going after Ireland, they are NOT going after Apple. More or less the EC wants money, but Ireland has different laws and low tax rates, Ireland is quiet happy with the laws they have, but the EC is not and told Ireland they needed to recover that money from Apple, Ireland has not done so. As such the EC is now going after the member state, NOT Apple as they have followed all the laws they are subject to.

So you are complaining about a company following all the rules and laws, but because you FEEL like they owe you something, that is not enough.
 
BlueFireIce said:
Ohhh, so you are the type that someone can't have something or more than someone else, without screwing someone else over. A common but very mistaken mindset.

There is no "cost" to anyone, Amazon is just being allowed to keep the money it has earned and created. What you are suggesting is that you would rather not collect the taxes, because Amazon never comes and offers jobs, local economic growth, and support for other business and a genuine gain in wealth for the area, rather than not collecting the taxes and getting all of the above. As those are the options, one, Amazon gets no tax incentives from the state/city, in which case they never come and you still collect ZERO extra taxes, you get no jobs, no local economic growth, etc etc. However if they do come, they get tax incentives for a few years, you get 53,000 short term jobs and 50,000 long term jobs, local growth and the collection of income taxes from those 100,000 new workers, taxes from the secondary companies in the area that build everything, sales taxes, etc etc

For the area you bolded and underlined, I have no idea why as it deals neither with Apple or Amazon, but rather the NFL, which has nothing to do with either and you seemed very confused about this. One (the NFL) gets paid and makes money from the state, and even has stadiums built with tax dollars in many cases, the other, such as Amazon does not get paid anything and receives no tax dollars, they are only allowed to keep more of the money they rightfully make.
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Actually i'm very much the opposite, Your logic is very flawed if you got that from my comments.
I'm VERY MUCH PAY YOUR FAIR SHARE......I work my ass off and don't believe I should shoulder the taxes because some corp wants to build a new building in a new place and not pay for it 100% on their own. Taxes are in place and way to many corporations are dodging the responsibility of paying what they are supposed to, just because there is a "loophole" doesn't mean it should exploited but rather should be closed.

The workers get taxed not Amazon, Amazon needs to pay for their HQ and not get deals from local governments, just like Apple should pay pay taxes with their $250 bn dollar revenue through Ireland bank accounts. Its slimy and lacking in integrity. Companies do pay alot in taxes they don't pay what they are supposed to hence why the government wants to raise more taxes because they are spending faster and entering contracts which favor corporations and tax citizens just like my example of the NFL teams. The Chargers moved to LA because San Diego refused to raised taxes on the city because the owner wanted to have them build and pay for his new stadium. Amazon doesn't get paid but should pay for its building and shouldn't get shit for free (tax incentives and making deals with state governments to get the building). Get it?
If I have to pay taxes on my income so should the corporation that is making billions. Imagine if all US citizens opened up foreign bank accounts to get around paying their taxes.....i bet that "loophole" would get closed real fast.
 
SomeoneElse said:
Actually i'm very much the opposite, Your logic is very flawed if you got that from my comments.
I'm VERY MUCH PAY YOUR FAIR SHARE......I work my ass off and don't believe I should shoulder the taxes because some corp wants to build a new building in a new place and not pay for it 100% on their own. Taxes are in place and way to many corporations are dodging the responsibility of paying what they are supposed to, just because there is a "loophole" doesn't mean it should exploited but rather should be closed.

The workers get taxed not Amazon, Amazon needs to pay for their HQ and not get deals from local governments, just like Apple should pay pay taxes with their $250 bn dollar revenue through Ireland bank accounts. Its slimy and lacking in integrity. Companies do pay alot in taxes they don't pay what they are supposed to hence why the government wants to raise more taxes because they are spending faster and entering contracts which favor corporations and tax citizens just like my example of the NFL teams. The Chargers moved to LA because San Diego refused to raised taxes on the city because the owner wanted to have them build and pay for his new stadium. Amazon doesn't get paid but should pay for its building and shouldn't get shit for free (tax incentives and making deals with state governments to get the building). Get it?
If I have to pay taxes on my income so should the corporation that is making billions. Imagine if all US citizens opened up foreign bank accounts to get around paying their taxes.....i bet that "loophole" would get closed real fast.
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Amazon is paying for the building, what are you even talking about?
 
Everyone's obligation is to pay as little tax as possible. Stop being pissed because corporations have the money to hire the best tax accountants and lawyers to help them in that endeavor. Apple did nothing wrong. They simply figured out a way to use the laws as written to pay very little tax and return money to shareholders, which is the goal of any corporation. I am sick and tired of people being pissed because "evil corporations" don't pay taxes. I don't want to give anymore money than absolutely necessary to a wasteful government who will just turn around and give it to some lazy fucker who didn't earn it. My goal is to find loopholes like the corporation's use to lessen my tax burden. Thank the brilliance of the supreme Court in citizens united. If America wants corporations to stop moving profits overseas to avoid taxes, then lower the fucking corporate tax rate, implement business friendly policies, eliminate idiotic agencies like the EPA, etc who's only goal is to make unnecessary and expensive legislative efforts which hurt business, repeal Dodd Frank, etc. Make America more competitive than foreign countries and solve 2 goals at one time. 1. Increase the amount of money that stays in America. 2. Systematically crush foreign countries reliant on the tit of American money to survive because they've implemented unsustainable social programs.
 
RayderR6 said:
Looks like someone missed the whole corporate use of Amendment 14 that made them a "legal person", which in fact carried it all the way to the recent Supreme court decision for "Citizen's United" which struck down as unconstitutional a federal law prohibiting corporations and unions from making expenditures in connection with federal elections. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_United_(organization)

Yes rudy, they are "people". The "companies and unions" are neck deep in legislation and they have a FUCK load more money than you or I to get the laws they want, by buying the politicians, because again, they have a FUCK load more money. Yes, everybody is greedy, everybody wants theirs, almost everybody is culpable to the status quo in this world. The game of Monopoly is being played on humanity scale.

Corruption unleashed! Caught up now?

rudy said "And ultimately a company is not a citizen and the government doesn't represent or service companies they do those things for the citizens."

This is so fucking hilarious, I can only figure you just came out from under a rock, for fucks sake man! Companies and Unions buy the government.

EDIT: and what corporations get away with that you or I can't is "accountability". Corporations pull shit (let's use Equifax as a currently running example), they just point fingers, make excuses and are rarely held to any accountability (sometimes because a single person within the corporation or union can't be identified as the culprit), they just pay a fine, pay a politician, etc. and guess where that money comes from. If you or I did it, the authorities will know who pulled the shit and unless you could afford a politician or had clout to pay a fine to the best legal system money can buy, guess where you wind up.

Most corporations are not in it for society, they're in it for the payoff.
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I said citizen not a person, and that was a purposeful wording on my part, but your angry reaction only illustrates my point, that our tax code is based off of raw human emotion and not rational decision making. The definition of a corporation was made by law makers as a service to the people. As long as the company is operating within the law then your beef isn't with them its with the people you voted into power.
 
Jarod888 said:
Apple did nothing illegal.
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FTFY because there's quite a big difference between doing something legal vs illegal and right vs wrong, there are plenty of things that are done that are perfectly legal to be done but that doesn't make 'em right.

Citizens United, wow, thanks for the laugh. ;)
 
Tiberian said:
FTFY because there's quite a big difference between doing something legal vs illegal and right vs wrong, there are plenty of things that are done that are perfectly legal to be done but that doesn't make 'em right.

Citizens United, wow, thanks for the laugh. ;)
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Not illegal, not wrong. Perfectly legal and perfectly acceptable. Apple is doing what any good corporation should do, pay as little tax as possible and return value to shareholders.
 
Uvaman2 said:
I get where you are coming from, i really do, but you are completely wrong.
You are applying an interpretation of a person's economic rules and regulations to higher economic spheres. Basically for us individuals the rule is ' i have this much monies' .. that might be true also for small and smallish business.. Im talking about big, billions big, and banks and shit.. the rules change... I mean it literally, you can't think in terms of how things look to you as an individual.. these businesses, piling on the billions in excess are protected, diplomatically, militarily.. shit big banks get to get more money each year for no reason other than being big big banks. There is no reason not to balance our deficits off the backs of these company's accounts.. it is way worse to do so off the backs of working Americans.. that's a direct hit to economic activity.. billions sitting in tax dodging companies is doing nothing for anyone.
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I don't follow your point. So what if the seeming rules change for a big company. What exactly is your argument? Go look up where the federal budget goes and you will see that most of it goes to us, the biggest 3 expenditures tend to be Military, Medicaid, Medicare. However if the government officials we elect see fit to help develop the economy by giving money to corporations to keep them here for a variety of reasons then I don't really see the problem. Alternatively we could all just give up and let the Chinese subsidize their businesses until ours all go bankrupt or move out and see if that works out well for us.
 
Dude have you not read on how all the states and trying to cut deals for the HQ to be built in their state? That's why they haven't made their decision yet.....http://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-headquarters-city-proposals-hq2-2017-10
This crap is stupid......this is why i'm pissed. Can you understand this? Im more pissed at the gov than Amazon to be honest but this tells you who really holds the power in the US. (hint: its not the government)
 
SomeoneElse said:
Dude have you not read on how all the states and trying to cut deals for the HQ to be built in their state? That's why they haven't made their decision yet.....http://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-headquarters-city-proposals-hq2-2017-10
This crap is stupid......this is why i'm pissed. Can you understand this? Im more pissed at the gov than Amazon to be honest but this tells you who really holds the power in the US. (hint: its not the government)
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Again, I ask, where is Amazon not paying for the building other than in your own head? You started with Apple, got everything wrong there, moved to Amazon in Chicago, based on you being in IL and you thinking you were paying for it because you understood nothing about the plan, the tax breaks or even the number of people it was going to bring jobs to, when that fell through you moved to the NFL for some way out there unknown and unrelated reason, to now just making blanket statements. I think you have run out of straws to grasp at.

The link you provided also has guess what, not a single place paying for the HQ2 building, almost all of the cities are offering up large closed down malls for Amazon to buy, a good reuse of buildings and land, and reviving an economically dead area. The infrastructure plans are all planned to happen anyway, the biggest one being the train planned between Dallas and Houston, I should know living in Houston, which has been talked about for a LONG time, and Houston being the big pusher for it and Houston is not even the one wanting Amazon, Dallas is and Houston was in support of the train before HQ2 was even planned and Houston officials have stated the train will happen if Amazon picks Dallas or not.

So again...AGAIN I ask, what is your point and where is the city paying for Amazons building?
 
BlueFireIce said:
Again, I ask, where is Amazon not paying for the building other than in your own head? You started with Apple, got everything wrong there, moved to Amazon in Chicago, based on you being in IL and you thinking you were paying for it because you understood nothing about the plan, the tax breaks or even the number of people it was going to bring jobs to, when that fell through you moved to the NFL for some way out there unknown and unrelated reason, to now just making blanket statements. I think you have run out of straws to grasp at.

The link you provided also has guess what, not a single place paying for the HQ2 building, almost all of the cities are offering up large closed down malls for Amazon to buy, a good reuse of buildings and land, and reviving an economically dead area. The infrastructure plans are all planned to happen anyway, the biggest one being the train planned between Dallas and Houston, I should know living in Houston, which has been talked about for a LONG time, and Houston being the big pusher for it and Houston is not even the one wanting Amazon, Dallas is and Houston was in support of the train before HQ2 was even planned and Houston officials have stated the train will happen if Amazon picks Dallas or not.

So again...AGAIN I ask, what is your point and where is the city paying for Amazons building?
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Never mind you don't get it......and never will. Forget it. You believe the corporations can continue to operate they way they are with no penalty. You probably think its ok for Verizon to charge you to build a LTE towner in your backyard if they wanted to.....

P.S. i've been saying this crap since the start so no i haven't moved on form each statement....be real.
 
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SomeoneElse said:
Never mind you don't get it......and never will. Forget it your to stuck in your way of thinking. You believe the corporations can continue to operate they way they are with no penalty. You probably think its ok for Verizon to charge you to build a LTE towner in your backyard if they wanted to.....

P.S. i've been saying this crap since the start so no i haven't moved on form each statement....be real.
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Get what? You have made incorrect statements about every single aspect of what is going on, you then make up claims and when asked to prove it, you just say I'm "not getting it".

And you have not moved from each statement? Dude, this thread is about Apple and you are now all the way at the NFL and Verizon!
 
BlueFireIce said:
Get what? You have made incorrect statements about every single aspect of what is going on, you then make up claims and when asked to prove it, you just say I'm "not getting it".

And you have not moved from each statement? Dude, this thread is about Apple and you are now all the way at the NFL and Verizon!
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I'm making examples for you to somehow try to understand but you won't even attempt to try.
Apple is avoiding its tax paying responsibility because the government allows it to GET IT NOW? The example I left are all examples of that occurring with major billion dollar corporations whats so hard to understand about that statement?
 
SomeoneElse said:
I'm making examples for you to somehow try to understand but you won't even attempt to try.
Apple is avoiding its tax paying responsibility because the government allows it to GET IT NOW? The example I left are all examples of that occurring with major billion dollar corporations whats so hard to understand about that statement?
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Apple has paid all of it's tax responsibility. You are wanting them to pay more than the law requires, there is nothing else to get.
 
Whenever this topic comes up I'm always confused as to whether people simply don't realize we're talking about profits Apple earned outside the US or whether you guys don't care where the money is earned.

How can you argue that a company that manufacturers its products outside the US, sells them outside the US, pays for employees outside the US, somehow owes a "fair" share to the US government? They're paying taxes on the profit earned for their US operations. They're paying taxes on their foreign profit according to the laws of the countries they're doing business in.

The other confusing part is why anyone here would *want* a US based company to go down the shitter or be at a disadvantage to foreign companies.
 
BlueFireIce said:
Apple has paid all of it's tax responsibility. You are wanting them to pay more than the law requires, there is nothing else to get.
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That's the point, the law is flaw because it can be circumvented. That the whole discussion here, "loopsholes" exist and are used. They need to be fixed. Corporations make profits and keep them off shore so they don't have to pay taxes on the money they made. You think that's not shady?
 
mope54 said:
Whenever this topic comes up I'm always confused as to whether people simply don't realize we're talking about profits Apple earned outside the US or whether you guys don't care where the money is earned.

How can you argue that a company that manufacturers its products outside the US, sells them outside the US, pays for employees outside the US, somehow owes a "fair" share to the US government? They're paying taxes on the profit earned for their US operations. They're paying taxes on their foreign profit according to the laws of the countries they're doing business in.

The other confusing part is why anyone here would *want* a US based company to go down the shitter or be at a disadvantage to foreign companies.
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(honest question) where did it state that it was only money earned outside the US? I was under the impression the kept a majority of their money outside the US.
 
SomeoneElse said:
That's the point, the law is flaw because it can be circumvented. That the whole discussion here, "loopsholes" exist and are used. They need to be fixed. Corporations make profits and keep them off shore so they don't have to pay taxes on the money they made. You think that's not shady?
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Loopholes don't exist, the law is the law, if you don't like how it is, change it. However calling it a "loophole" to try and make following the rules sound dirty does no one any good.

They are not using an omission etc from the law to avoid taxes, they have paid taxes and are following the laws as they were meant, that in of it self means it is NOT A LOOPHOLE. But I guess understanding tax law and what a word means is asking a bit much considering the quality of the argument seen so far.

As for the EC "loophole", it is not either, as they are following the Ireland laws as they were meant, so much so that Ireland has so far refused to take action on the ECs demand that they recover the money from Apple.
 
BlueFireIce said:
Loopholes don't exist, the law is the law, if you don't like how it is, change it. However calling it a "loophole" to try and make following the rules sound dirty does no one any good.

They are not using an omission etc from the law to avoid taxes, they have paid taxes and are following the laws as they were meant, that in of it self means it is NOT A LOOPHOLE. But I guess understanding tax law and what a word means is asking a bit much considering the quality of the argument seen so far.

As for the EC "loophole", it is not either, as they are following the Ireland laws as they were meant, so much so that Ireland has so far refused to take action on the ECs demand that they recover the money from Apple.
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I will concede that you do know more about tax laws. To insult my intelligence about me not being a tax expert is not your place to judge.

I won't judge people that way because its not my place to do so.
I do question your ethics based on you view of this topic. Its not a question of legality but of if its right ethically, just because it legal doesn't make it right.
 
mope54 said:
Whenever this topic comes up I'm always confused as to whether people simply don't realize we're talking about profits Apple earned outside the US or whether you guys don't care where the money is earned.

How can you argue that a company that manufacturers its products outside the US, sells them outside the US, pays for employees outside the US, somehow owes a "fair" share to the US government? They're paying taxes on the profit earned for their US operations. They're paying taxes on their foreign profit according to the laws of the countries they're doing business in.

The other confusing part is why anyone here would *want* a US based company to go down the shitter or be at a disadvantage to foreign companies.
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my friend u always lol.
Communists
Socialists and Logic don't mix.
 
Jarod888 said:
Everyone's obligation is to pay as little tax as possible. Stop being pissed because corporations have the money to hire the best tax accountants and lawyers to help them in that endeavor.
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Don't forget the best lobbyists. See this is what people are actually upset about. When corporations hires lobbyists to get a bill passed that benefits them tremendously that the MAJORITY of Americans are against (for example, I don't recall being in favor of the bailout, do you?), then that's not democracy. That's not even representative democracy. It's representative plutocracy. So, yes, they're taking advantage of a law the majority of Americans never wanted in the first place. I agree though that the attention towards Apple isn't the problem, it's the entire system that allows wealthy businesses to play by different rules than the rest of us and continually change them to their favor. I don't say "good for them", I say "That's not democracy."

Jarod888 said:
eliminate idiotic agencies like the EPA, etc who's only goal is to make unnecessary and expensive legislative efforts which hurt business,
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Out of curiosity, what has changed between now and when the EPA was formed as a response to the Cuyahoga river was so polluted it caught on fire and some cities being so polluted it was the equivalent of smoking a pack a day? What is so radically different now that if the EPA were shut down tomorrow, pollution like that would never happen again? I'm completely serious, you somehow see the "only goal" of EPA to be to hurt business, whereas I see them as literally the last line of defense of not getting cancer from drinking water or the air I breath, however flawed they operate. Different strokes.
 
darckhart said:
It is absolutely puzzling to me how Americans still love Apple when Apple's actions directly say they don't give a crap about them.
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As with most large companies these days they smartly play the left and support identity politics to keep a good portion of the population from questioning them.
 
Mohonri said:
It's worth taking a look at why companies do it. It's to avoid taxes. The US has about the highest corporate income tax rate of any in the developed world: 40%. Should we really be shocked that companies choose to not claim that income in the US?

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If there's a country they'd prefer to do business in they should go there.
 
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