Almost Everything on Computers Is Perceptually Slower Than It Was in 1983

Zarathustra[H] said:
I disagree. In most cases a -h or --help switch lists all your options. No need to remember lists of stuff, but when you do you get even faster.

It is true that there is a learning curve, and only once that learning curve is overcome does one become faster, but the point the author made is that GUI systems have a learning curve too.

I remember my mom trying to use a mouse for the first time back in the 90's. It was fairly amusing watching her aim and miss the buttons she was going for.

The point the author is making is that mice and pointers are more intuitive to us, only because most of us have already been forced to overcome that learning curve, whereas most People aren't forced to overcome the text interface learning curve, and thus many have an irrational fear of it.

As humans we have pretty well developed brains for navigating 2d and 3d Space, but the fact remains that the more you minimise searching, navigating, aiming and clicking, the less time a task takes. The fewer degrees of freedom a task requires us to compute, a smaller slice of our brain is needed to process the task.

As mentioned before, there are tasks that a GUI is better for as well. Notably most desktop applications, but IMHO setting up and managing servers, and inventory control and POS systems like the author mentions are areas where a terminal interface is undoubtedly more efficient.
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I bet I can pull up a machine's IP address with the GUI faster than you can with the command line (without the command line already open.) I know for certain I can enter a dozen IPs in a Windows GUI for DNS far faster than anyone, absolutely anyone, can enter the same in a Linux BIND DNS server from bash shell.

There isn't a whole lot of "searching, navigating, aiming and clicking" with most users, and in addition, a GUI is confined compared to a command line. The command line is wide open, and this also means it is open to wrong things and completely lacks hints to context. The very thing that so many people tout as "you can do anything from the command line" is the very thing that makes it hard to use.

A new user could do more with Windows DNS in 15 minutes than a new user could do anything with Linux BIND in a week simply because the icon on the DNS management panel will tell them right where to go, and the form of the GUI would tell them what things are and what to do with them with just a mild amount of logical reasoning. A Linux command line tells the user nothing about where the DNS files are or how to edit them, and if they figure that much out, the file itself would only clue a user to how to format the new entries, without any hint that they would need to increment the serial on the DNS file or that they would have to restart the service for the server to even know that changes had been made.

A GUI, by very definition. clues a user into what they can and cannot do, while a command line does absolutely nothing to help. Even typing "help" does nothing in most command lines, and certainly does not clue a user in to all that they can and cannot do.
 
ChadD said:
I don't disagree with this guy really. It would be wonderful to see a real text based GUI developed at a high level.

Linux is great for allowing you to run different GUI DEs... or things like Open box. You can get close if you hack a bunch of stuff together. Still its not a polished experience. A simple keyboard gui where one could multi task / select files / launch programs could be just as easy as mouse input and be much more reliable and fast. I swear todays computers really don't feel any faster then machines I used in the 80s... there just "prettier" while taking the same amount of time it seems.
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Mint seems pretty polished to me (I dual boot Win 10 and Mint). In fact 95% of the programs I use regularly are the same (jEdit, Open Office, Firefox, Thunderbird, Octave, g++, etc). The only reason I keep Windows around is for games (only about a 3rd of my Steam games will run on Linux) and Photoshop. And compared to the update scheme that Win 10 has, Mint is great.
 
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jpm100 said:
You identified the problem. Windows it is poor GUI implementation. Who thinks after I start typing if the mouse slips a few pixels out of the 'box' I don't want to finish inputting my text. There use to be settings for this.
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As far as I know, Windows has never done this. Windows 10 is the first one to let you scroll the non-active window actually, but you won't lose focus just moving the mouse out of a window.
 
Ok, I just checked the calendar and it is not 1985. This sounds like the bullshit I heard form PC users when they saw the Amiga.
 
Hmm... Not sure about 1983, but in 1984 I got an Epyx Fastload cartridge for my C64 that made loading things perceptibly faster. :p
 
dgingeri said:
A GUI, by very definition. clues a user into what they can and cannot do, while a command line does absolutely nothing to help. Even typing "help" does nothing in most command lines, and certainly does not clue a user in to all that they can and cannot do.
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First two letters of desired command and tab tends to give you a fair clue as to the command you're looking for, sometimes that's far easier than sprawling through the damn ribbon interface and is less input than Start > type 'Contr' click Control Panel to open the Control Panel.
 
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BulletDust said:
First two letters of desired command and tab tends to give you a fair clue as to the command you're looking for, sometimes that's far easier than sprawling through the damn ribbon interface and is less input than Start > type 'Contr" click Control Panel to open the Control Panel.
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Tab autocompletion is what makes the command line usable.

Without it I'd be all GUI all the time, but with tab autocompletion managing servers via SSH is a snap.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Tab autocompletion is what makes the command line usable.

Without it I'd be all GUI all the time, but with tab autocompletion managing servers via SSH is a snap.
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Totally, same here. I have enough trouble remembering client's names let alone terminal commands!
 
BulletDust said:
First two letters of desired command and tab tends to give you a fair clue as to the command you're looking for, sometimes that's far easier than sprawling through the damn ribbon interface and is less input than Start > type 'Contr' click Control Panel to open the Control Panel.
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First, you must know the command to run so that you can type in the first couple letters, and that is a major part of the battle with Linux. Trying to manage DNS, it takes a lot more than just typing "dns" and hitting tab, for example. When I was managing DNS on Linux servers, I had a near impossible time remembering where the DNS record files were. (They were in /var/zones/bind/zones/bind/domain/domain.txt, or some such.)

Dealing with Nagios was even worse. I never could figure out where the config files were with that. After a while, rather than deal with reconfiguring it to remove servers that were removed, I ended up just shutting it down. It became useless to me in about 18 months after I took it over because half the servers and switches it was monitoring were gone, and it had none of the new servers. Actually FINDING those files was impossible, let alone actually editing them.
 
A LOT of keyboard commands that are from the dawning of windows still work.

Alt-0176 being a ° symbol. (entered here by holding down alt key, and typing 0176.)

The coolest thing (lol) I ever found was that Ctrl-shift-F10 is a right mouse click.

Cut, Copy, Paste, etc are all there from windows and office.
 
dgingeri said:
First, you must know the command to run so that you can type in the first couple letters, and that is a major part of the battle with Linux. Trying to manage DNS, it takes a lot more than just typing "dns" and hitting tab, for example. When I was managing DNS on Linux servers, I had a near impossible time remembering where the DNS record files were. (They were in /var/zones/bind/zones/bind/domain/domain.txt, or some such.)

Dealing with Nagios was even worse. I never could figure out where the config files were with that. After a while, rather than deal with reconfiguring it to remove servers that were removed, I ended up just shutting it down. It became useless to me in about 18 months after I took it over because half the servers and switches it was monitoring were gone, and it had none of the new servers. Actually FINDING those files was impossible, let alone actually editing them.
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You don't have a notepad you can jot important bits of information on? Like the location of DNS entries on a Linux server?

Even via GUI, you still have to search for various options/settings, if you're not familar with the GUI in question or you're forgetful (like myself) than you're still going to have to jot down important locations. They're different interfaces, but neither is a road map.
 
Well, not everyone knows terminal commands or keyboard shortcuts, but nearly everyone can use a mouse to navigate.
 
Nanogrip said:
Well, not everyone knows terminal commands or keyboard shortcuts, but nearly everyone can use a mouse to navigate.
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Actually, that's not true.

Most people struggle to navigate Windows using a mouse and a GUI, where they can navigate using a mouse and GUI it's all purely a result of learned repetition, muscle memory. They cannot use anything even remotely advanced regarding the OS: They can surf the web, check emails, type a letter and read their bills formatted as .pdf files. Whether they click a Chrome icon or type 'Chrome', it doesn't make a cracker of a difference regarding their knowledge of a computer operating system.

It's the same argument Windows users try to use in relation to Linux, "People know Windows, they don't know Linux so Windows is easier to use". Problem is, if Linux was force installed on every OEM machine sold for the last 20 years+, the argument would be reversed - Terminal vs GUI is no different in this regard.

Office 2003 runs just as well on my Pentium III Tualatin based machine as Office 365 on my 2700k @ 5Ghz machine. Why? Because Office 2003 was designed with 512MB of memory and a single core processor in mind, Office 365 was designed with 8GB+ of memory and a 4Ghz+ multi core processor in mind. Computers are now faster than they were in the past, software runs at the same speed due to poor coding and unnecessary bloat.

Coders can no longer code bare metal, they need an API in between themselves and the language, or a language between themselves and the machine code, in order to make anything useful.
 
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Nanogrip said:
Well, not everyone knows terminal commands or keyboard shortcuts, but nearly everyone can use a mouse to navigate.
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Yeah, well...

I know the AT modem command set, the ascii command set in hex, and can read x86 assembler, in hex or ascii; I can code in several languages, and speak 3.

Some people are just underachieving, and lame.

I hear they can use mice with training. :)
 
DrBorg said:
Yeah, well...

I know the AT modem command set, the ascii command set in hex, and can read x86 assembler, in hex or ascii; I can code in several languages, and speak 3.

Some people are just underachieving, and lame.

I hear they can use mice with training. :)
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I bet you can remember a time before Windows and the GUI even existed (with the exception, possibly of the Xerox Alto). The problem these days, is we have a generation that know nothing but Windows and the GUI. ;)
 
A properly designed GUI can be a great time saver. Most aren't properly designed. Delete is next to Rename in the Windows File context menu. How many "Oh Shit!" moments has this created? And far too often, trying to discover where a option is hidden is a long frustrating hunt. And help only helps if you know the magic search term. It seems that too often, the help section seems written by someone that hasn't used the software in question.

But no, I don't long for the days of Wordstar . commands.
 
Its just a classic case of when the idea becomes the institution.
 
I started with a C128. Everything was command line driven...even to launch an application that had a GUI.

Then moved on to a PC with DOS 3.31 run off of floppy, because I had no HDD. Used command line exclusively for years all the way up to DOS 6.22, until I built a Cyrix 6x86 (with a HDD) and installed Win95. I find that I can get to things much faster in a GUI environment than was ever possible with command line syntax.

Command line, good riddance.
 
i much admit i still use commandline for a lot of stuff you have way more direct control of things/data this way. but GUI has it benefts other place. none is absolut better than the other, i woudl hate do to my picture editiin for command line. ( I do some part of it from CMD thoug but mostly its in the gui)
 
If you work at a car dealer that uses Reynolds and Reynolds, its like stepping into a way-back machine. All keyboard inputs and looks like the early 80's. Works great though and lighting fast going through service records. You can change the text and backround color to suite your taste. Most use Blue backround with yellow text which is default I believe.
 
Well, free porn is DEFINITELY better today than it was in 1983:

4FJOB8l.jpg
 
bbvdd2 said:
If you work at a car dealer that uses Reynolds and Reynolds, its like stepping into a way-back machine. All keyboard inputs and looks like the early 80's. Works great though and lighting fast going through service records. You can change the text and backround color to suite your taste. Most use Blue backround with yellow text which is default I believe.
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We used to use Auto-IT as opposed to Reynolds and Reynolds, the setup is basically a Linux server set up as a 'mainframe' with client terminals (we used to use actual RS-232 terminals and later switched to Windows based terminal software solutions). The product works remarkably well, one of the best DMS systems I've ever used - Honestly, when they implemented a WebGUI based solution I always found the terminal solution a million times better, terminal was physically faster and easier to use.

Titan DMS with it's GUI based solution is the slowest, most painful garbage I've ever used.

Good example.
 
Monkey God said:
......................... 99% of Windows stuff is available under control panel or Administration...............................
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Not if you are a server admin on Server 2012. The world of the sysad and the user are not the same friend, not nearly the same :D

And let's take VMware and look at performance and usability under vCenter Server.

How many of you who manage clusters under vCenter prefer say, a vCenter Server install on a Win 2012 box to the vCenter Server Appliance (VCSA) ? And how many think the Web Management is slow and less intuitive than the old client software that VMWare is pushing us away from?
 
SuperSubZero said:
He lost me at the second sentence, because an amber terminal in 1998? Even my small-town local library had a Windows machine in 1998.
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Hey now, some of us enjoy using a composite amber monitor from 1989 on a server from ~2016! :D

compaq_deskpro_8086___benchmarks_and_software_by_redfalcon696-db1sbmq.png


(Yep, that monitor is used nearly daily on a Skylake Xeon system with CLI only, for real, haha.)
 
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I feel like some of the point was lost. Arguing about gui vs text is fun, and I have strong opinions, but the point is really this: we, as programmers, know how to make shit fast and usable: we should do it instead of always fucking around with shiny things.
 
why not both.jpg

It's true though. In the day of accupoints, learning keyboard shortcuts was vastly quicker, even in a GUI. Same holds today but less and less programs seem to support them. Office menus these days with the ribbons and shitty keyboard shortcuts are rubbish.
 
Bugger the GUI! This is what I cut my teeth on, still have it in use to this day - Love this machine!

Funny thing is, software was so well coded I never wanted for more performance, with the exception of some form of fastloader to overcome the hopelessly slow 1541 floppy disk drive.

kIwVqDXh.jpg
 
The article is correct, keyboard input is usually way superior to GUI use. I remember when I used to work at BTR Hi-Flex and they replaced our old unix text-based sales interface with a new 'improved' remote GUI interface.

It became at least 5 times slower to do the same basic inputs that were lightning fast using the old interface. You had to remove your hands from the keyboard and point the mouse to fields... It was horrible. And is.
 
dgingeri said:
A GUI, by very definition. clues a user into what they can and cannot do, while a command line does absolutely nothing to help. Even typing "help" does nothing in most command lines, and certainly does not clue a user in to all that they can and cannot do.
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A GUI by very definition is dumbing down the computer for the lowest common denominator. The role of GUI is not to enhance the speed of use but to make stupid people understand what to do.
 
DrBorg said:
A LOT of keyboard commands that are from the dawning of windows still work.

Alt-0176 being a ° symbol. (entered here by holding down alt key, and typing 0176.)

The coolest thing (lol) I ever found was that Ctrl-shift-F10 is a right mouse click.

Cut, Copy, Paste, etc are all there from windows and office.
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Hah, shows Mac is much faster. ° done with 1 keypress and control+click is right mouse click.
 
B00nie said:
A GUI by very definition is dumbing down the computer for the lowest common denominator. The role of GUI is not to enhance the speed of use but to make stupid people understand what to do.
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Very true.
 
I'm more concerned about the operator. IME that seems way slower compared to 1983 than my computer.:cry:
 
DrBorg said:
Yeah, well...

I know the AT modem command set, the ascii command set in hex, and can read x86 assembler, in hex or ascii; I can code in several languages, and speak 3.

Some people are just underachieving, and lame.

I hear they can use mice with training. :)
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They can use trained mice to navigate a GUI with a mouse for them? :p
 
lcpiper said:
Not if you are a server admin on Server 2012. The world of the sysad and the user are not the same friend, not nearly the same :D

And let's take VMware and look at performance and usability under vCenter Server.

How many of you who manage clusters under vCenter prefer say, a vCenter Server install on a Win 2012 box to the vCenter Server Appliance (VCSA) ? And how many think the Web Management is slow and less intuitive than the old client software that VMWare is pushing us away from?
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I'm still using the old client. :D In fact, the only reason I've touched the web client in the last, oh, three years or so, was to prove it was still working. :D
 
dgingeri said:
I've been a systems admin for 7 years and in IT support for 20. The GUI is still faster than command line in everything I do. I'm quite proficient in many aspects of Windows, and powershell and command line really, really suck at doing most everything. I use it for ping, tracert, and nslookup, and that is about it.
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How?

I'm a sys admin and holy fuck do I shave off obscene amounts of time scripting all the things. I've automated our entire account creation process, wrote reporting for all kinds of shit, ensured we never see certain issues ever again because they're a script run away from being fixed.

AD was not taken care of prior to me - we had computers that were teenagers floating around in it. Even our groups were fucked. At that point the work required had completely eclipsed what you could reasonably do by hand.

Wrote some reports, used them to determine the gold master state of how things should be, scripted all the changes I needed to make to get us back to sanity.

Computer list lost 60% of its population. Tens of thousands of user moves, group modifications, and all sorts of things done.

Office 365 licensing and whatnot basically requires this as well unless you're a masochist or super tiny. The UI lets you modify 100 users at once. Why should I do the same thing 80 times when I can just write something to take care of everyone in one shot?

The first time I saw my handiwork create 40 accounts in the span of a couple minutes, requiring only the effort of double clicking something was magical.
 
Finally got around to reading the article and watching a few of the guy's videos... he really doesn't know what he's talking about, and this just seems like a nonsense rant from someone who knows little about how actual work is done with CLI, TUI, or GUI interfaces.
Hate to say it, but this was nothing more than a nonsense rant from someone who appears to know very little before the late 1990s in terms of technology and how things were actually done back in the 1980s and earlier.

The Obsolete Geek and Lazy Game Reviews are both a lot more informative, way less negative, and far more realistic about their understanding of actual 1980s & 1990s hardware, software, and the business & technology cultures of the times.
As much as it pains me to say this, I'm more "retro" than this guy is, and I feel bad saying that, I really do! (shameless plug) :D

I'm not sure if he's trying to be funny here, but if not, is he really struggling to turn on a CRT monitor...? :eek:
He gives off a vibe of "everything new sucks", and at the same time, kind of has an attitude of "everything old sucked"; not really sure what to make of this, or what point he is trying to get across.

I wish this guy the best, but he really should learn a bit more how things were actually done back in 1983 if he is going to make a realistic opinion on topics like this, or heck, even in the late 1990s for that matter!
 
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