KGI: TrueDepth Camera Gives Apple 2.5 Year Lead over Android Competitors

These predictions always make me LOL. 2.5 years? I'm sorry, but with today's tech, once something is released, somebody else seems to have figured out how to do it 6 months later. Maybe not as well, maybe better, but 30 months claim is ludicrous.
 
Here here. With a passcode lock method, you CANNOT be forced to unlock your phone outside of a warrant (at least in US). With ANY biometrics based lock scenario, you already gave up that right can can be compelled to unlock it upon request and without a warrant. Plus with face unlock, they don't even really have to ask you but just hold it up to your face to do so. Utterly stupid!

Biometrics can quickly be disabled to require passcodes.
 
I'm struggling to actually find a point in this "Cool Story" from Krazy; but here's my shot at it.



Not just opinion. Provable fact.

Here's the thing Krazy. Most bio-metric security systems are easily bypassed by the very nature of their bio-metric usage. The kinect-style mapping features have to account for various different shades of skin, eye position, eyelid-position, and other facial muscle positions in order to be functional in a wide range of lighting conditions. A phone that only unlocks for somebody's face when they are in a fluorescent-lit room with wide-open eyes isn't very useful. So question here: can any Apple or Android picture unlock system accurately determine whether or not the image that is being used to unlock... is a printed 3D model... a person who is awake... a person who is asleep... or a person who is dead?

Also: what's to stop a legally authorized agent of a government entity from simply holding a picture-locked device up to an owners face for an unlock?

The point here is simple. Bio-metric unlocks like fingerprints, pictures, and 3D mappings are useless features to somebody who actually needs or just desires basic security. It's like the encroachment of "sudo" against "su" in the Linux space. One approach makes it very easy to wreck a Linux box... the other actually requires having to input an actual password.

Which one is more secure?




I would not have called the post bragging...



Incorrect assumption and correlation. "Nobody" uses facial unlock on Android because the average Android user is, based on market-share, more likely to either be interested in security in general, or doesn't have money to throw around at the latest and greatest and have to make do with what they can afford.

Those buying affordable Android phones like the Huawei Honor Series; LeEco's LeMax 2; UmiDigi's; and Xiaomi's aren't going to fret over having the latest and greatest hardware updates. They just want a device that works.

Those who are buying Android because they actually have an investment in security procedures and practices are not going to stray far from passcodes or pattern unlocks that require some form of input from an authorized user.

Apple's introduction of a facial unlock system isn't going to change the market for several reasons. The first is that the Iphone X is horrendously expensive. Sure, Apple will sell out it's production run, but let's be honest here. Apple's talking hundreds of thousands of Iphone X's and a few million Iphone 8's. Android is talking about BILLIONS of devices going through activation in the same time span. Not to put too fine a point on the subject; Apple's the small krill in a sea of whales. Huawei alone sells more phones than Apple... and that's just one company without a worldwide household imprint. The only reason Apple get's away with being called a market leader is that Apple marketing only pitches it's flagship device against Samsung's flagship device.

To frame this in HardOCP terms; that would be like AMD and Nvidia both only describing the success of their graphics cards by just the Vega 64 and 1080 TI card sales alone. No person reading HardOCP or visiting the HardOCP forums would remotely call such a comparison a realistic viewpoint of the actual market. Like it or not; in terms of world-wide cell phone usage; Apple has about the same markeshare as Windows Phone 8.



And?

Okay. This used to be a pretty fair point. Build quality on Android phones circa Samsung's Galaxy SII used to be terrible. Getting a decent build quality in a phone pretty much meant having to buy a flagship. Except technology hasn't stood still. The molding and manufacturing techniques to make cell-phone shells have advanced to the point where even titanium and ceramic bodies are feasible at ~$500(US) price-points. Build quality in a $300~$500(US) phone is hardly an issue now; and companies like Huawei and Umidigi (aka Raiding-Sharp's-parts-bin) keep proving that good build qualities can be had on ~$200 phones.

So... Apple has good build quality? I think that's more a factor of where ODM Hon Hai Precision is at in their process capability rather than a reflection on Apple itself.



... I've worked through quite a few different UI's in my time. Outside of taking some more pot-shots at Got-No-Organization-Messy-Experience I'm not really aware of any current device UI that is completely inane, insane, or just flat broken as to be unusable. Activating facial recognition on Android phones should be as simple as going to settings and security; then following prompts on the screen.

Has Apple dumbed that down? Probably not.

I suspect an Apple user will still have to go to their settings; click on security; and then follow the prompts on the screen.



I'm still trying to parse this sentence.

Android users didn't take to facial recognition as an unlock because it was a gimmick that didn't actually secure their phone.

Now, I fully expect that you'd like to make some comment as to the effect that the inability of the Android facial unlock to secure a phone was due to some limitation of the camera system and or User-Interface prompts. I harbor no doubt that a quick Binging of the net, because you wouldn't use Google or DuckDuckGo, would certainly find you some person or another who posted somewhere that they couldn't get their facial unlock to work at all.

Bully for you. Congrats on being able to navigate the web. Antecedents do not make a proof of such a claim.

What I can prove; very quickly; is that unscrupulous governments already do not hesitate to physically restrain a person and then physically apply the bio-metric locked device unlock. E.G. locking somebody in a chair and then physically forcing the person to put their finger on the finger-print sensor. All facial unlock does is just mean that an interrogator no longer has to bother with taking the locking mittens off.




Yeah. We... We got that.



... you must be fun at word contradiction parties.



Excellent chance to make a point on how Google has slowly lost the plot on what Android is supposed to be and what Android is supposed to do.

You didn't make that point though. In fact I'm still struggling to figure out what point you were trying to make.

If you really are interested in something that works; I'd suggest checking out Plasma-Mobile: https://plasma-mobile.org/



... wait for it...



yeah.

Um.

Not just refuted.

Slammed, burnt, owned, pwned, creamed, splattered, left you writhing in agony?

Yeah. I did that.

Here's the thing Krazy. Don't say "Cool Story Bro" after trolling somebody with a mentally challenged kid comparison. All that does is just invite the whales swimming in the background to step in and have a nice big chomp on your krilly rear end.
I perused your post but you said Android users are interested in security, gotta love waiting for those security updates.

Hold on though. Still loving how you insist that people who want security use android. Hope you use vanilla/pure android.

Also your entire tangent on unscrupulous governments had nothing to do with our discussion. In fact you should probably turn off those features when traveling overseas.

So your entire point is that facial recognition is a gimmick. Then why does every Android fan talk about how they had it and never used it first. It’s stupid.

The cool story was because he asked where android touched me without an argument. I was gonna just hit report but figured I would save mods the time and just write back something equally as trolly.

Pwned? Nowhere in that rambling about security and governments did you say anything remotely matter other than that Apple’s solution is more secure, but not secure enough. Disable it when you travel?

I never made the argument it was more secure then passwords or even fingerprinting. I made the argument that Apple and let me highlight this for you. Did it better.
 
Did anyone read the tech papers on this? Is it just a high tech stereoscopic solution? If so, why would it take several years because we have been using stereo imagery to do depth measurements for years, like since the 80's.
 
I will never use face unlock. Pass code or pin is more secure. What prevents someone to use your face to unlock against your wishes? At least with a pass code I have to give it or it has to be broken.

If it ever comes to Android it better be optional.

What James Bond life are you living where this would EVER be a problem?



BTW: the true depth camera is really just a miniaturized Kinect sensor array.
 
Did anyone read the tech papers on this? Is it just a high tech stereoscopic solution? If so, why would it take several years because we have been using stereo imagery to do depth measurements for years, like since the 80's.

It's pretty much a mini kinect camera. When you initiate a scan by one of the possible triggers, it takes a sequence of 2D IR images of you until it detects you are looking at the device or it determines it was a false trigger. Then it uses the IR dot projector to project a random pattern of dots specific to the device. From what it says, I would assume that the pattern is either not just spatial, but temporal (i.e. the dot pattern varies over time), or it requires some motion of the camera and or face being scanned. I assume this because it takes a series of dot field depth maps and compares them to verify facial shape in 3 dimensions without a second camera.

That's my read of what is in the faceID white paper, I could be wrong about what is implied by the description of the process.
 
Did it better.
HUH?
Are you aware of the problems with the facial unlock in the live demo?
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/12/watch-apple-iphone-x-face-unlock-demo-fail.html
first 30 seconds is all you need. He had to go to a backup to get it to work......
They did it better? It unlocks the phone... how can it be done better?
Facial unlock is nothing new and nothing to write home about but since your fanboism has taken full control. You are an unreasonable argument waiting to happen. This was just an FYI post....
 
HUH?
Are you aware of the problems with the facial unlock in the live demo?
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/12/watch-apple-iphone-x-face-unlock-demo-fail.html
first 30 seconds is all you need. He had to go to a backup to get it to work......
They did it better? It unlocks the phone... how can it be done better?
Facial unlock is nothing new and nothing to write home about but since your fanboism has taken full control. You are an unreasonable argument waiting to happen. This was just an FYI post....
According to follow up reports, the facial unlock failed by security design (they just weren't intending for it to happen on stage). Prior to the presenter coming out to demonstrate the facial unlock feature, the phone was handled by multiple people backstage that were not "tied to" the phone. The phone read their faces when they were handling it, which their faces did not match its list of approved users, thus staying locked. But because it happened multiple times prior to being presented, the phone resorted to requiring a PIN to unlock, much the same way when Touch ID gets too many failed attempts it resorts to a PIN requirement.
 
HUH?
Are you aware of the problems with the facial unlock in the live demo?
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/12/watch-apple-iphone-x-face-unlock-demo-fail.html
first 30 seconds is all you need. He had to go to a backup to get it to work......
They did it better? It unlocks the phone... how can it be done better?
Facial unlock is nothing new and nothing to write home about but since your fanboism has taken full control. You are an unreasonable argument waiting to happen. This was just an FYI post....
Yeah I can see your fanboyism.

Apple did it better period. I know I know it’s hard to admit.
 
Thats like saying they "improved the copy and paste" feature.........
I want to make sure I have this correctly.

Android’s solution as previously linked can be fooled by a piece of paper.

The Apple one scans your face and can’t be fooled by a piece of paper.

And it’s the same... man I wish we could have an improved copy paste if that is the same to you.
 
I want to make sure I have this correctly.

Android’s solution as previously linked can be fooled by a piece of paper.

The Apple one scans your face and can’t be fooled by a piece of paper.

And it’s the same... man I wish we could have an improved copy paste if that is the same to you.
This was my point your arguments are mere insults to those who challenge you because......clearly are are a superior person than anyone else posting in these forums BECAUSE you are a Apple fan.
 
Then Google recopies it and it's all you guys can talk about.

See most recently missing headphone jacks, soldered batteries, and no SD card slots. The hate is always palpable around here when Apple does things, but they generally have good implementation of things that have been around before.

Where are all these Android users that are using Androids face unlock?

I use Iris unlock, which is more secure than even Apple's face recognition. They specifically say that twins or those with siblings shouldnt use the feature. Since most of us have siblings, I think they failed right out of the gate. Even a twin won't have the same iris pattern, however.
 
This was my point your arguments are mere insults to those who challenge you because......clearly are are a superior person than anyone else posting in these forums BECAUSE you are a Apple fan.
No, these arguments are wrong and we’ve provided proof.

It has nothing to do with being an Apple fan. It started with people talking about how Android did it first, and I tried to point out that Apples solution is more mature.

Doesn’t really matter anymore anyways. It’s a phone it doesn’t make anyone superior.
 
I use Iris unlock, which is more secure than even Apple's face recognition. They specifically say that twins or those with siblings shouldnt use the feature. Since most of us have siblings, I think they failed right out of the gate. Even a twin won't have the same iris pattern, however.
That’s dope. What platform is that for?

Also that whole sibling is going to lead to so many lols. I can only imagine what my siblings and I would have done had we been able to do that.
 
No, these arguments are wrong and we’ve provided proof.

It has nothing to do with being an Apple fan. It started with people talking about how Android did it first, and I tried to point out that Apples solution is more mature.

Doesn’t really matter anymore anyways. It’s a phone it doesn’t make anyone superior.
Obviously its more mature because its not new technology. That was the point but a lot of people are saying Apple did facial recognition first. I'm pretty sure most of the people were arguing that point. Apple doesn't usually come out with something "first" they just wait and try to improve where mistakes where made. I never faulted Apple for that, its the "new" idea and the over pricing of hardware and accessories that really turned me off. I'm a fan of moving forward but the price wars is whats really pisses me off. Sad thing is everyone keeps raising prices and not pushing them down. At this point its a competition on who can sell the product at a premium.
 
Obviously its more mature because its not new technology. That was the point but a lot of people are saying Apple did facial recognition first. I'm pretty sure most of the people were arguing that point. Apple doesn't usually come out with something "first" they just wait and try to improve where mistakes where made. I never faulted Apple for that, its the "new" idea and the over pricing of hardware and accessories that really turned me off. I'm a fan of moving forward but the price wars is whats really pisses me off. Sad thing is everyone keeps raising prices and not pushing them down. At this point its a competition on who can sell the product at a premium.
That I whole heartedly agree with.

Slap a pro or some other cool after title and charge a premium for it.

Founders editions, X, or any of the ultra premium models most brands are pitching is just for status.

Fuck to be honest I don’t want a face scanner without a finger print reader just because I play with my phone in the dark. I can’t have my face lit up with my wife in bed.
This is the post I originally replied to.
I think it's hilarious people are pissing themselves over wireless charging... it's been around for years with android.

I equate apple with the "Pimp my ride" of phones... they take a bunch of shit that's been done before, put it all into some phone and then think they are some kind of genius for inventing it.
My point was people think they’re genius because they make a polished final project that took an idea that wasn’t super useful, improved it through acquisitions and rolled it out.
They don’t make money by being first, they do it by being polished.
 
That’s dope. What platform is that for?

Also that whole sibling is going to lead to so many lols. I can only imagine what my siblings and I would have done had we been able to do that.

The Samsung S8/S8+ and the Note 8 have this feature.
 
The Samsung S8/S8+ and the Note 8 have this feature.
Oh that's the name of the Samsung one.

I am interested to see what happens to the Apple one when a bunch of CCC and the like get ahold of them.
 
I use Iris unlock, which is more secure than even Apple's face recognition. They specifically say that twins or those with siblings shouldnt use the feature. Since most of us have siblings, I think they failed right out of the gate. Even a twin won't have the same iris pattern, however.

Facial recognition is a crappy feature, and I'm not sure who at Apple was brave enough to greenlight it.
 
So real sense, leap, alloy.... But apple did it first.........fansheep

Hope people enjoy sending smiley poop emojis when they collide in traffic
 
So... Apple apparently has made a better face unlock that no-one will use than the Android face-unlock that no-one did use. Great? After it fails for ... wearing sunglasses, or a hat, or squinting in the sun, or changing your makeup, or how much your beard has grown, everyone will just go back to pin codes.
 
Fair enough, it took Apple 3 years to get fast charging, edge to edge OLED screens, wireless charging (but not FAST wireless charging), and face recognition after Samsung launched these features!

Shit implementation doest count...
 
The 3edgy5me tech folks here may be shitting all over smiley poop emojis because they think it's dumb, but guess what...most of Apple's customers just want smiley poop emojis.

I'm sure they'll feel incredibly guilty for their perversion of technology, while crying themselves to sleep on their piles of cash from selling smiley poop emoji machines.
 
To you, photography is a hobby of mine that I enjoy immensely. Rarely is it practical for me to drag along my DSLR on business trips. Current generation camera phones do any amazing job for such a tiny package. As the old adage goes: the best camera is the one you have with you. Modern cellphone cameras have allowed me to significantly improve my composition skills and capturing some fantastic shots. Camera performance is one of the first features I look at on a cellphone. They all do a great job for calls, texting, and emailing.

Now that I have kids, I agree with this. I actually do like it when phone companies improve the cameras in their phones. That said, I do not see how anything about this "TrueDepth" camera actually improves the image you get in your pictures. I don't do selfies, and I don't care about Facetime image quality enough to be that concerned. Give me the stuff that gives me better image quality (better light sensors sizes and improved lenses). This seems to be all marketing hype about a functionality that I never wanted, and I am not sure that too many other people cared about before we were told we should want it.

That is the piece that is annoying me with all of the companies lately. They keep trying to tell us what we want. Even if facial recognition to unlock is implemented perfectly, whereas before it was not, this is a fun gimmick that will be abandoned after the novelty wears off. At this point, I do not care about thinness of the phone anymore and I haven't heard anyone else talk about wishing that their phone was thinner in over 3 years. Instead, it feels they keep removing features, but try distracting us with the new shiny.
 
Now that I have kids, I agree with this. I actually do like it when phone companies improve the cameras in their phones. That said, I do not see how anything about this "TrueDepth" camera actually improves the image you get in your pictures. I don't do selfies, and I don't care about Facetime image quality enough to be that concerned. Give me the stuff that gives me better image quality (better light sensors sizes and improved lenses). This seems to be all marketing hype about a functionality that I never wanted, and I am not sure that too many other people cared about before we were told we should want it.

That is the piece that is annoying me with all of the companies lately. They keep trying to tell us what we want. Even if facial recognition to unlock is implemented perfectly, whereas before it was not, this is a fun gimmick that will be abandoned after the novelty wears off. At this point, I do not care about thinness of the phone anymore and I haven't heard anyone else talk about wishing that their phone was thinner in over 3 years. Instead, it feels they keep removing features, but try distracting us with the new shiny.

I would absolutely love a new Nokia 1020. A camera first cell phone second kind of device. I find the L16 light device the right form factor, but price is wayyyyyyy to high.
 
Then Google recopies it and it's all you guys can talk about.

See most recently missing headphone jacks, soldered batteries, and no SD card slots. The hate is always palpable around here when Apple does things, but they generally have good implementation of things that have been around before.

Where are all these Android users that are using Androids face unlock?

1.) What?
2.) Missing headphone jacks, no SD card slots *STILL* puss of lots of people, regardless of who's pushing it. The standard is now either a soldered battery and water proofishness, or a replaceable battery. Duh.
3.) I don't know where they are, but their phones with the crappy, annoying, slow awkward facial recognition are probably mostly in a land fill or being recycled in a village in China - where they belong.
 
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