Hard Herausforderung

ChristianVirtual

ChristianVirtual

[H]ard DCOTM x3
Joined
Feb 23, 2013
Messages
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"Herausforderung" as the German word for challenge and in continuation of the discussion about a [H]osted challenge:

Q1: Project (FAH vs BOINC)
Q2: Theme
Q3: Method
Q4: Timing and duration
Q5: Winner Recognition
Q6: "Marketing" / Communication

Q...
 
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My 2¥:

ad Q1: FAH is a good idea; too many BOINC challenges around anyway; where we are just one of (too) many

ad Q2: Archery and hit the "Bulls Eye"; for fun we could integrate this little game ( https://codepen.io/pyrografix/pen/qrqpJN ) on the site before, during and after the challenge

ad Q3: as mentioned in the other thread and to avoid the coin team dominate with their pure power we could predefine team-specific targets (their bullseye) and they have to hit it. Based on historical performance; (let say 6 month). Visualized with the target with circles showing the percentage deviation; smaller devision -> closer to the center of the target

The teams would need to manage (target) their contributions be adjusting the overall performance (increase/decrease) in order to achieve the best rating.

ad Q4: from September to May; two or three rounds each one or two weeks (to avoid looking interest)

ad Q5: I have not idea; a "classical" virtual medal (with [H]; if Kyle allows; I don't think he would reject. But: we need someone how can design a digital medal.

ad Q6: I guess everyone is in different forums and we need; same as SETI WOW. run through and post ...



Any other idea ?
 
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Well, I reached out to mullet to design the t-shirt logo. Perhaps talking to him and seeing if he is interested in more design projects. He isn't a DCer as far as I know but he was willing to help previously.

Again, I think FAH is the best choice here. Same reasons that CV mentioned AND it would be easier to get our FAH holdouts more active in the forums again. I think if the BOINC/non-FAH DC'ers were willing to help that side of the pond, it may be easier to get them to help us on a few of our bigger challenges.

The archery theme seems interesting. I would need to see a more flushed out concept though to get a good grasp on it. I wouldn't make it overly complex. The scoring for the DC-Vault annoys a lot of people because the equation confuses them. It needs to be kept fairly simple. I don't think an annual challenge should be structured as meeting specially tailored goals for each team. That is more of a goal they should set on their own if they don't think they can win the overall standing. Or maybe make it a side goal similar to how SETI.Wow does it. Nobody really cares about the Zodiac teams of SETI.Wow but it does allow you to support your team while also being on a "virtual" team.

I don't think we NEED to have a virtual medal with H on it as the challenge doesn't have to be called H necessarily. The challenge could be "Something other than Chimp Challenge" sponsored by team H or team 33. Then have the medal that reflects the name of the challenge itself. I would have our website at the bottom of it though. That would be the advert portion.

As far as the forums, I'm fine with having it hosted in these if that simplifies things. Yes they would need to register but the real question is how are you going to tie them to their real FAH stats other than them claiming it is them? The advantage BOINC has is that we have unique ID's that can be used but not give others access to your account. FAH really doesn't have that from what I can tell. So, it would be honor system...
 
Would we just give the user number like posted on EOC's site? So mine would be 665717
http://folding.extremeoverclocking.com/user_summary.php?s=&u=665717

And then would they also need to register an account here to "claim" that ID, or would they register some other method like using an email address (though I don't see the point in that one)? Would they just use whatever handle they want to register under and slap the user number on it? I mean the team will still be associated with the user number so there isn't real concern there unless someone just went down their teams roster and signed people up without their knowledge...

I prefer users to volunteer to sign up rather than automatically signing up the entire team. There are a lot of sleeping giants out there that just set and forget. Challenges are really for those people. Challenges IMO are for those that are more active than just doing mass installs and looking at a stats site every couple of months.
 
And again on the exclusion topic... where does it begin and end? I know the main focus is on CureCoin and anyone else with cryptos that require you to switch to their team to earn. But how do you really define this exclusion. EVGA awards EVGA bucks. To me that isn't much different in the over all concept though it is much different from a technical and financial standpoint. I don't like the idea of excluding teams that find a way to promote more DC even if they can afford to pay them. I understand that CureCoin could and do dominate right now. However, with each user having to sign up, I think we would find a lot less of their number actually participating. When H was on top and we had 1000's of members...those came from other teams just wanting to hop onto the "winning team" and not necessarily because they cared about the team that was doing it. When things changed, they jumped like flees on a bathing dog. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of those went to EVGA and then to CureCoin.... However, we really need to iron this definition out and figure out a good way to handle it now before there is more grey area to cover.
 
Interesting. I had a different idea and the devils are always in the details...

We already have BOINC pentathlon that spans over two weeks mimicking various "Olympic track & field" type of events. We have Formula BOINC that mimics the Formula One racing over the year. DC-Vault, hmm not sure how this fits in since this is based on the lifetime performance of each team. I'm thinking about having a similar type of competition based on World Cup Football/Soccer just like the FIFA World Cup. Maybe call this 2018 [H] Distributed Computing World Cup Championship, or something that is unique.

It would cover any DC projects including FAH and BOINC. Every year, select a few projects (notify contestants upfront) and then apply World Cup seeding system based on that selected few projects within a certain time frame. Let's call these project A, B, C and D. This is called a qualification and seeding period to allow time for the team to improve their seeding. At the end of the qualification period, determine the seeding for each participating team based on sum of these 4 projects and then spread them out in various groups equally, just like the World Cup grouping process. For eg. team 1 (seeded 1) would be placed in Group 1, team seeded 2 would be placed in Group 2 so that team 1 and 2 won't face each other in the same group, etc. During the preliminary rounds, perhaps the top two teams in each group and/or the best 3 finisher teams etc, would move to the next sudden death rounds, say the last 16 rounds or a quarterfinal. Each will compete against each other is a selected project within a time frame and move on to the next round till the World Cup Final. During that period, perhaps we can also include those teams that did not manage to move to the second round to compete for the remaining xx positions or perhaps they may not have any more interest in this after being eliminated in first round.

The issue I see is that this requires active team participation and may spread over longer period than BOINC pentathlon but shorter than the Formula BOINC. It also requires more management, so it is not really a simple thing to manage. Anyway, just my two cents....
 
My concern is that this will be too long of an event. FB doesn't really have that much active participation other than typical daily crunching from teams as is. Pentathlon is intense and only spans a couple weeks. Most teams seem to think 2 weeks is about the longest they really want to focus on. The PrimeGrid challenge series is only 3-5 days each throughout the year. I would prefer the event to only take 1 - 2 weeks at most. Just my preference. I have no idea what FAH teams would be willing to do.
 
ChristianVirtual said:
"Herausforderung" as the German word for challenge and in continuation of the discussion about a [H]osted challenge:

Q1: Project (FAH vs BOINC)
Q2: Theme
Q3: Method
Q4: Timing and duration
Q5: Winner Recognition
Q6: "Marketing" / Communication

Q...
Click to expand...

In case you have not heard of this, might want to check the Thor Challenge organized by Crunchers Sans Frontieres. It is a nice idea. This challenge appears to be quite active from what I can see in the WCG forum thread.

To all: should we participate in this next year?
 
We can participate in any of them. My fear is that if we participate in too many, people will get burn out. We already have the WCG birthday party in November which is a large draw and also the Xmas challenge which seems to be dwindling a bit going through almost all of December. Then you have the Pentathlon every other year including WCG. Don't get me wrong, I love the project. However, for keeping things fun and fresh, I would say lets find something else or focus on what we are doing now.

Thor challenge is run time based. This means people overclocking their rigs aren't doing any extra good. It would be better to downclock the systems to save on electricity. Even running a cell phone would be on par with a high end cruncher. Looks like 1/4 of the teams are already dropped. I'm guessing lack of excitement. WCG's challenge platform is lacking a great deal. And it isn't likely they will improve it anytime soon. BOINCStats is the same for me. Their challenges are nice if you don't have an alternative. But, we are getting to where we have decent platforms.
 
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Maybe WCG should move towards credit based rather than time based badges like most BOINC project credits. I think this challenge adds varieties. We have credit, result and time based type of challenges to suit different interest/groups. At least those without huge hardware (phones) can still have a chance to compete those with monster hardware. My one cent.
 
pututu I think changing the badges at this point in time would piss too many people off. From a competitive stand point it has some major flaws. But from a typical users standpoint it isn't such a big deal. I think it is good to be a little different and by showing the badges for run time shows that you are more in it for the long haul rather than having an expensive gaming rig that can mow everyone else's contribution from years and years down in a few days.

@everyone else
Advantages to current challenges
DC-Vault
All contributions to a project count. So no reset of points.
Includes more than just BOINC projects.
All projects are weighted equally.

Formula-BOINC
All contributions reset each year.
Only includes select BOINC projects that has distributed a pre-defined amount of credit for the year.
Medals for each Sprint.

BOINCStats
Easy to create your own challenges.
Challenges are kept short. 7 or less days.

SETI.Germany
They have by far the most popular challenges. You can guarantee a heavy competition here.
Easy to register for the event. Only those teams that wish to participate are included.
"Medals" or "Badges" for the teams that win. Badge Hunters love things like this.
Shoutbox that does not require registration to their forums to communicate through.
The challenges are typically only a few days to a couple of weeks.
The users get "some" input on what projects are selected.
It isn't always the same projects being chosen.
They claim to get in contact with project admins now to try and guarantee a successful challenge.

Disadvantages
DC-Vault
Some people feel that contributions from old teams with years of achievements make it too difficult for newer/smaller teams to catch up.
Some people don't want to support things outside their comfort zone. AKA BOINC client projects
The website will not get updated due to the original designer not having any part of it any more.
Not a lot of rules dictating the inclusion of a project. Therefore it is up to a small few that are active in the forums to decide and then ultimately comes down to the one active owner to add/remove projects.

Formula-BOINC
Poor project selection. Not all projects are included and the ones that are aren't all stable for challenges.
Admin said it would be run by a panel of team captains. This was never done and is a one person show.
A project closes its doors are goes dormant, teams can "squat" on their acquired points for the rest of the year.
Sprints have little effort put into their choosing from the user's perspective. They seem poorly selected.
No checks and balances to show it isn't biased towards the admin's team. (Though they aren't the top contributors.)
Too many sprints for the badges to actually matter.
No communication with the projects involved.

BOINCStats
The setup is too simplistic in design.
Only "team founders" can create a challenge. Team founders are poorly entitled by the BOINCStats system set up.

SETI.Germany
SETI.Germany still gets to make a few of the decisions that could highly benefit their team.
They don't always listen to warnings of potential problems with project options and use the argument that they need variety over reliability many of times.
They do not always communicate well with the projects involved. But this is getting much better.
There is no discussion from the community about the changes being made for input in advance. They are willing to take suggestions for next year, but they still don't have "discussions" in the public for it.
Their challenge is geared only towards who can get the most points in the traditional challenge mentality. Therefore it excludes projects that are non-CPU intensive as those don't take into account things like overclocking or number of cores (typically).
This challenge heavily relies upon & encourages bunkering on a massive scale. Half of this challenge is typically wrapped up from bunkering.


I am bringing up these points because I think it would be helpful to take the wisdom from them when trying to help ChristianVirtual develop a challenges portion of the new site. I did not include PrimeGrid's challenge series nor any other individual projects because they have direct control on what information is obtainable. That is something we would not have.
 
The main reason I'm bringing up Thor Challenge is that though it has it flaws, it allows folks the opportunity to chase after WCG badges which is time based. It appears that our friends at SETI Germany is quite active (not all comments are positive, but it is always impossible to satisfy every single individual). It is in German but translated to English. I've not read most of it yet to see issues with this type of challenges that some are facing. I'm sure there are some strategies involved too.

I'll keep looking for other ideas beside my earlier post #6. Other than copying what others have done in regards to challenges, I'm thinking more of outside the box. Granted it will generally be viewed as too complicated but that is life as we venture into new things or into the unknowns......
 
Yeah, I have an account now in their forums. However, I've not taken the time to browse lately as translating isn't always easy. And to be honest, I don't have near the amount of time that I used to have to commit to all things BOINC.
 
I'll try to read the English version if there is something useful that we can consider. Perhaps CV knows how to read German?
 
German ? Me ? Forgot most of the stuff ... my English is bad ... and so my Japanese ... don't ask.

Can you get me some C++ or JavaScript or Python to read ?
 
As for the challenge I still struggle to get an idea on the method: just point chasing as every other challenge or something more sophisticated.

Like including the
1) number of active team member
2) number for tasks performed (and combined with the points)

something to average out high-volume teams; give smaller one a chance too (like us :oops: ) and just to differentiate it from the regular challenge.

Will try to read the SETI stuff tomorrow on the way to work.
 
I don't think it was intended but the homepage is now white. Two different PC's and tested with Chrome & IE.

white.JPG
 
You just got me while updating files to work against those reference loops/issues.

Pls try once more and refresh the site.

I added to allow cross-site references. E.g all sites from hard-dc.com and sub domains can refer to each other ... to adress the error message I got at times preventing loading
 
The latest posts section is working now, but the page background is still white for me. Using Chrome
 
f****** cloudflare ... or I need to learn more how to use it. It prevented to load the css files at times; deactivated for the time being. then it worked again under Safari and Chrome ...

Also redefined the www.hard-dc.com which pointed to cloudflare while I normally just use hard-dc.com or horde.hard-dc.com (all should have pointed to hard-dc.com anyway).

Please try once more and sorry for the trouble !
 
ChristianVirtual , since DooKey changed his name to Montu, the Hall of Fame probably should be updated from DooKey to DooKey/Montu like the others have done.
 
Well....one went from poop and the other is a stinky dress...so I can see that. :stinkyfeet:
 
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