Thanks to Lobbying, It's Tougher to Power Your Home with Solar Panels in Florida

I am thinking about getting me a few panels and batteries so I can make part of my basement "off the grid". I'm not talking about hooking into my regular electric - rather having a few plugs and lights powered by solar. If there is a power outage, I can just move unplug from my regular electric into the solar plugs. I am thinking about making it so I can run a few lights, router, and tv. I believe I can achieve this for about $500 based on what I've researched so far. (I'm doing more research before pulling the trigger.)
I have a shed in my backyard with the roof facing the south. It has room for 3-4 panels on the roof. If I get 4 deep cycle batteries, inverter, charge controller, etc - I should have enough power for what I'm thinking. I can even make it so I could plug a gas generator into my shed setup (with the power line running through the ground into my basement). The reason I might need the gas generator would be winters - I doubt I'll get enough useable sun to power everything. I don't know the building/electric codes where I live - so that's something else I'll need to take a look at and decide if I go through with the process.
I am not really thinking of this as a cost savings - more backup electric to handle a few devices during a power outage. Home Depot had a refurb gas generator last week for $475 - kicking myself for not getting it. It would accomplish what I am talking about above and be portable. Wasn't ready to jump in quite yet so missed out.
 
Biznatch said:
And if that system fails to disconnect? That's why. Failures happen, so they error on the side of caution when playing with lightning bolts.
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And how many other systems that exist on the grid that if they fail to disconnect that it fries someone? This is why we have regulations so that equipment is made to a certain specification so that nobody dies.

It's a bullshit excuse and you know it.
 
so houses in Florida must be connected to the electrical grid by law? I guess Amish are not allowed to live in the state then? Something doesn't smell right about the angle being taken here.
 
At first glance this seems pretty stupid, but there are good reasons for these rules, as have been mentioned by others already.

The electrical grid in the USA is actually really great compared to much of the world, and these regulations are part of the reason why.

That said, there are definitely issues with FPL's policies and lobbying regarding solar. The linked article goes into more detail.
 
panhead said:
So, why not have switches controlled from the power company. In the event of a disconnect due to power line breakage, the home switch disconnects from grid automatically and will on connect back to the grid until a signal is sent to it from the power company. Power companies have been doing this for quite some time.
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What if it fails?
 
NickJames said:
Except AFAIK FPL wants to make it illegal to be off the grid, so you're forced into a position where damned if you do, damned if you don't.
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That's a huge statement.

So someone buys a new home out in the country and there is now established service or lines. What law is there, or what law is being proposed and lobbied for that would require a new home builder to connect to FPL's infrastructure and service?
 
panhead said:
So, why not have switches controlled from the power company. In the event of a disconnect due to power line breakage, the home switch disconnects from grid automatically and will on connect back to the grid until a signal is sent to it from the power company. Power companies have been doing this for quite some time.
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Because in a disaster, not everything can be trusted to remain connected to get the signal to disconnect. That's what happens in disasters, things break and don't work. The system at the home must detect the interruption and disconnect because you can't cross your fingers and hope that the signal will make it to the home in a disaster.
 
I am for anything that is good for big-business. It's time for individuals to stop being so selfish and start doing whatever we can to help big business and people like Dick Cheney and President Trump. They know what they are doing, and we should do everything possible to help them.
 
And given that one of the recently reported deaths attributed to Irma was a woman who lost her 7 year old daughter because she was running a generator IN THE HOUSE.. ANy guess if they actually had a transfer switch on that or were just backfeeding the grid? And attributing that death to the hurricane - the hurricane cause no injury here, it was stupidity. If the only penalty for screwing this up was the idiot that screwed up and their property, then I'd say let'em do what they want. The problem comes, and it IS a legitimate concern, that if someone is backfeeding power because they don't have the proper equipment installed, it's a line worker who could pay the price, not the idiot backfeeding.
 
You don't even need an auto disconnecting switch. There are manual ones for breaker boxes that physically prevent you from hooking up your generator/solar to your house while still having the main breaker flipped. It's physically one or the other.

I'm supportive of forcing people have at least that - because people can't be trusted to hook it up right. Someone will kill a line worker.

If you want to be 100% disconnected and use extension cords from a generator or stored solar energy - then that should be fine. But that doesn't really help anyone when the power it out. What I need is something powering my well pump, my furnace, my air handlers, etc. and that doesn't happen with extension cords.
 
jardows said:
so houses in Florida must be connected to the electrical grid by law? I guess Amish are not allowed to live in the state then? Something doesn't smell right about the angle being taken here.
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That's pretty much true in most states.
Here in California you have to have a functional heater in the house, even though where I live, I feel an air conditioner is much more important than a heater.
 
I'm just a little annoyed at the entire first paragraph of the article.

38,000 homes = to millions without power, 8 old people dying is all a major disaster and loss of life that can't be ignored and somehow changes in legislation would have prevented it all.

I suppose the nursing home had solar panels so the eight dead old folks, (God rest their soles), were needlessly put at risk.
 
gamerk2 said:
This is normal across the US; more or less the same here in NY.

And yes, it's STUPID. But that's what an entrenched monopoly will do against progress. Give it 20 years or so, and maybe we'll finally have self-powered homes independent of the main grid.
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It's not stupid if you die touching a wire that isn't supposed to be hot. This can be life or death shit man.

Disconnect your damn backup power(assuming it works after a hurricane, many of these panels aren't designed for 100mph wind) Any competent installer will have this setup properly and your home would be off grid right now.
 
lcpiper said:
I'm just a little annoyed at the entire first paragraph of the article.

38,000 homes = to millions without power, 8 old people dying is all a major disaster and loss of life that can't be ignored and somehow changes in legislation would have prevented it all.

I suppose the nursing home had solar panels so the eight dead old folks, (God rest their soles), were needlessly put at risk.
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The old folks home had full on generators. Their transformer blew and they couldnt run their airconditioners from their generators. Solar wouldnt have helped grandpa.
 
lcpiper said:
Because in a disaster, not everything can be trusted to remain connected to get the signal to disconnect. That's what happens in disasters, things break and don't work. The system at the home must detect the interruption and disconnect because you can't cross your fingers and hope that the signal will make it to the home in a disaster.
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Simple solution. The disconnect switch must receive an on signal from the grid. No on signal, automatic disconnect. Same principle as a dead man switch.

The solutions to the "problems" people have pointed out in this thread already exist and have been implemented in various industries. The only reason utility companies don't want to use them is because it will cost them money and weaken control over their consumers.
 
nightanole said:
The old folks home had full on generators. Their transformer blew and they couldnt run their airconditioners from their generators. Solar wouldnt have helped grandpa.
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I wasn't actually saying that the nursing home had solar.

I was making the point, that they didn't have solar, so why mention their deaths as if this legislation and lobbying would have had an impact in any way on their survival.
 
Teenyman45 said:
The point that's being made, albeit sensationally and poorly; is that even if the home could be self-powered using solar, it's not allowed to be self powered when other parts of the grid are down. HOWEVER... should the home be using some other form of power supply like a gas/diesel/ lng generator routed through a properly installed panel then that's just fine only solar is excluded.
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Most public utilities have this requirement. If the infrastructure is in place in your area, you generally have to be attached. Public water (even if you have a well) Even sewage. Electric isn't much of a surprise.
 
Tsumi said:
Simple solution. The disconnect switch must receive an on signal from the grid. No on signal, automatic disconnect. Same principle as a dead man switch.

The solutions to the "problems" people have pointed out in this thread already exist and have been implemented in various industries. The only reason utility companies don't want to use them is because it will cost them money and weaken control over their consumers.
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Although I have no problem with an industry being reticent to introduce change because of costs, they are in business so cost matters. But declaring these the "only reasons" I am not buying because even if they did implement change it doesn't mean people will flock to get off the grid. Entropy has a way with people, change takes effort and frankly, too many people don't like making changes. Sure if you make it easy enough they'll do it, but when it get's hard, and when you are now responsible for the maintenance of your own power grid, it looks different to most people.
 
lcpiper said:
Although I have no problem with an industry being reticent to introduce change because of costs, they are in business so cost matters. But declaring these the "only reasons" I am not buying because even if they did implement change it doesn't mean people will flock to get off the grid. Entropy has a way with people, change takes effort and frankly, too many people don't like making changes. Sure if you make it easy enough they'll do it, but when it get's hard, and when you are now responsible for the maintenance of your own power grid, it looks different to most people.
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Effort is money, so once again, it comes back to cost. We can have a completely carbon neutral system using a combination of biofuels and other renewables, the only reason we don't is because it is not economically viable (yet).
 
griffinhart said:
Most public utilities have this requirement. If the infrastructure is in place in your area, you generally have to be attached. Public water (even if you have a well) Even sewage. Electric isn't much of a surprise.
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The point is that FP&L's position for standby power or grid down replacement power, burnable carbon based power generation for a home is A-OK, but solar is not acceptable even though both will use the same panels/switches and cause the same problems feeding back into the grid when the grid is being repaired.

nightanole said:
The old folks home had full on generators. Their transformer blew and they couldnt run their airconditioners from their generators. Solar wouldnt have helped grandpa.
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Depends if the solar was just pure panels or panels that fed into a battery array.
 
steakman1971 said:
I am thinking about getting me a few panels and batteries so I can make part of my basement "off the grid". I'm not talking about hooking into my regular electric - rather having a few plugs and lights powered by solar. If there is a power outage, I can just move unplug from my regular electric into the solar plugs. I am thinking about making it so I can run a few lights, router, and tv. I believe I can achieve this for about $500 based on what I've researched so far. (I'm doing more research before pulling the trigger.)
I have a shed in my backyard with the roof facing the south. It has room for 3-4 panels on the roof. If I get 4 deep cycle batteries, inverter, charge controller, etc - I should have enough power for what I'm thinking. I can even make it so I could plug a gas generator into my shed setup (with the power line running through the ground into my basement). The reason I might need the gas generator would be winters - I doubt I'll get enough useable sun to power everything. I don't know the building/electric codes where I live - so that's something else I'll need to take a look at and decide if I go through with the process.
I am not really thinking of this as a cost savings - more backup electric to handle a few devices during a power outage. Home Depot had a refurb gas generator last week for $475 - kicking myself for not getting it. It would accomplish what I am talking about above and be portable. Wasn't ready to jump in quite yet so missed out.
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The last time I priced deep cell batteries, good quality was running a couple hundred each, which nearly doubles your starting budget all by itself.

All that stuff you listed probably costs less than $0.10 per hour to run. I know you wrote that you aren't doing it for cost savings, but you're talking about not breaking even for years and by then having the replace the batteries.

I have a rental where the only electrical demand are 2 dusk to dawn lights and the irrigation controller. I have to pay the electric company $30 dollars per month just in service charges to pay them a few dollars per month for the lights. I have an inverter and a battery and was going to buy a cell to power all of that but it doesn't pencil out.

And in response to the guy suggesting running the house off an array of deep cells, it's going to take an entire basement of cells to run the fridge and A/C alone. It's more cost/space effective to get a power wall.
 
Tsumi said:
Effort is money, so once again, it comes back to cost. We can have a completely carbon neutral system using a combination of biofuels and other renewables, the only reason we don't is because it is not economically viable (yet).
Click to expand...

But if it's not economically viable (yet), then it doesn't make any sense to do it yet, unless there is a motivation that outweighs the economic angle.
 
Teenyman45 said:
....................
Depends if the solar was just pure panels or panels that fed into a battery array.
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Both missing the entire point. The nursing home didn't have solar at all, so mentioning it in this article was disingenuous. Why bring up deaths due to an unrelated event as justification for change when the change would not have prevented the deaths?

Had Florida allowed Solar backup power operation during outage conditions it still would not have put solar panels on the nursing home so these deaths are not related to FPL's lobbying and resistance to what some feel is desirable power policy.
 
Megaslug said:
And given that one of the recently reported deaths attributed to Irma was a woman who lost her 7 year old daughter because she was running a generator IN THE HOUSE.. ANy guess if they actually had a transfer switch on that or were just backfeeding the grid? And attributing that death to the hurricane - the hurricane cause no injury here, it was stupidity. If the only penalty for screwing this up was the idiot that screwed up and their property, then I'd say let'em do what they want. The problem comes, and it IS a legitimate concern, that if someone is backfeeding power because they don't have the proper equipment installed, it's a line worker who could pay the price, not the idiot backfeeding.
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Was this death by electrocution or carbon monoxide poisoning? My state about 8 years ago mandated (to the joy of fire alarm type companies) that all houses have CO detectors. Because stupid people (especially those who don't speak English well) and arrogant tards in general who think they know better kept killing themselves due to CO inhalation by not running their generators outside in fresh air (or leaving the garage door down and running the car).

Those CO alarms last about 5 years and the idiot companies cant keep their mounting design standard for the screws. Thank God for velcro but then... I just leave the old one mounted without batteries as the only real threat I would face gas wise is nat gas leak.
 
My understanding is that you can get around it if you have a battery (like a Tesla Powerwall) installed along with your solar panels. It has to do with electrifying the grid while they're trying to work on the lines... the solar panels need to not do that, but they can still run if the electricity generated can go towards charging a battery instead.
 
I live in Florida, have solar and lost power during Irma. This article has started a fuss for pretty much no reason. It has been all over reddit.

Practically nobody will really want to be isolated from the grid. Even with batteries, a few days of clouds will screw you over big time.

For emergency situations, solar isn't really reliable to do much. I suppose you could island your house, but you would need a battery pack too and most people don't spend that much money. Anyone who wants emergency power with solar should look into the SMA inverters with SPS option. I was able to run my fridge and electronics during the outage.
 
Ranulfo said:
Was this death by electrocution or carbon monoxide poisoning? ..........
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.......Or is it a generator serial crusher theory?

:confused:



v1.bjsxMTM5Njg7ajsxNzQ2MTsxMjAwOzE3NDg7MTMxMQ



:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:


EDIT: The more I think on this the more this guy's article actually pisses me off. He's trying to tie in these deaths and shit to the power company's lobbying. It's like he's trying to argue that if it weren't for the power company, everyone in Florida would have augmented Solar Power systems and none of these deaths would have happened ..... and that's just bullshit. People who write crap like this piss me off.
 
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lcpiper said:
I'm just a little annoyed at the entire first paragraph of the article.

38,000 homes = to millions without power, 8 old people dying is all a major disaster and loss of life that can't be ignored and somehow changes in legislation would have prevented it all.

I suppose the nursing home had solar panels so the eight dead old folks, (God rest their soles), were needlessly put at risk.
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how would legislation prevent it at all?
If the nursing home invested in a battery backup, then their lives *may* have been saved.
 
lcpiper said:
...EDIT: The more I think on this the more this guy's article actually pisses me off. He's trying to tie in these deaths and shit to the power company's lobbying. It's like he's trying to argue that if it weren't for the power company, everyone in Florida would have augmented Solar Power systems and none of these deaths would have happened ..... and that's just bullshit. People who write crap like this piss me off.
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The author of the article has another hard-hitting piece on Irma published on the 18th.

"Why Do Politicians Always Wear Baseball Caps During Natural Disasters?"
 
mope54 said:
The last time I priced deep cell batteries, good quality was running a couple hundred each, which nearly doubles your starting budget all by itself.

All that stuff you listed probably costs less than $0.10 per hour to run. I know you wrote that you aren't doing it for cost savings, but you're talking about not breaking even for years and by then having the replace the batteries.
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You have some good points. I might just get me a gas generator instead. We don't have power outages that often and a decent one would do what I want.
Not sure how good they were, but I was seeing some deep cell batteries from a place called Rural King (?) for about $80. I don't know much about them beyond the ad that listed them. Harbor Freight sells them, but I know the quality of their stuff...
 
Couldn't you be like, the hurricane just knocked out all power so I'll switch to my own. If you a$$holes feel you need to sue me for disconnecting from the grid go ahead and I'll be on every news/internet outlet available freaking out. (in extremely winy voice) "Oh my! The evil electric company charged me with robbery cause I switched off the grid during the storm! :O Those horrible people!"
 
The lineman should always check for voltage on the load side of the transmission lines and then ground the lines to ensure that there is no possible way for the load side to be accidentally energized.
 
Geef said:
Couldn't you be like, the hurricane just knocked out all power so I'll switch to my own. If you a$$holes feel you need to sue me for disconnecting from the grid go ahead and I'll be on every news/internet outlet available freaking out. (in extremely winy voice) "Oh my! The evil electric company charged me with robbery cause I switched off the grid during the storm! :O Those horrible people!"
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And get charged with manslaughter when you kill a lineman to keep your margarita maker working.

HTElectrical said:
The lineman should always check for voltage on the load side of the transmission lines and then ground the lines to ensure that there is no possible way for the load side to be accidentally energized.
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And then drive around for a week trying to figure out what asshole is backfeeding electricity?

My mother and uncle were without power for 6 days because of Irma, mother stayed with us and other family were coming here to take showers etc. If I found out it took that long because of one dumbass backfeeding the lines, I'd find their house and remove the solar for them.
 
Croak said:
Go ask your facilities manager what it took to get certified to run that generator, and the annual costs of inspections and tests to keep that certification.
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I run about 8MW of prime power interconnected synchronous generation daily, and have professionally for the past 20 years. I have no idea what certifications your talking about.

Riccochet said:
This is how my setup works. I have solar and generator with a auto transfer switch. When I lose grid power the transfer switch disconnects grid power, fires up the generator and supplements what solar isn't producing.

This isn't rocket science. The technology to do this has been out for decades. I don't mind be grid tied, but I don't want to be 100% grid reliant when I have two alternative methods to power my house.
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Your setup works, but only with a few assumptions and a specific inverter designed to operate off grid — which I’m sure you have considered and installed, but the vast majority of folks with solar will not. It definitely isn’t your typical grid-connnected off the shelf string inverter, and trying to run those in parallel with a generator is dangerous — it will work, all the way to the point where your solar is producing more than you need and your standby generator gets turned into an electric motor and your day turns bad in a hurry.

Yes, you should be able to install an off-grid inverter with solar meeting all the code for any standby generation. My understanding about Florida (and some other states - I don’t live or work there so I havent done a lot of research), is that you can do that, but then your solar is just standby and you wouldn’t be able to use it for everyday use with the utility (and run your meet backwards: Net Energy Metering), which is one of the big benefits of grid connected solar and allows it to be financially competitive with grid-supplied power.

If you want to grid connect, then you have to use a grid connected inverter with Anti-Islanding, which is what shuts you off if the utility is down.

My understanding is the lobbying is there to prevent you from having it both ways - which is backwards. It’s the utility trying to preserve the ability for them to fund the infrastructure. Utilities really don’t like distributed small scale generation because they have to account for it in safety and protection, it’s sporadic in output, it isn’t something they can dispatch or remotely control, and they lose a good chunk revenue because of it. It’s largely a pain in the ass for them to support, and it costs them a lot of money and effort to do so. Granted, utilities have rules that allow them to adjust rates to recover those costs, but it turns into a political issue then. Utilities in States with a renewable power standard have grudgingly accepted solar; those without are lobbying to make solar less financially attractive or more difficult to interconnect.
 
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