Windows 10 User Base on Steam Stagnates as Windows 7 Rises

heatlesssun said:
Whatever issues Windows 10 has it's actually done quite well with gamers. Windows 7 is now 8 years old, it's done. Enterprise adoption of Windows 10 is going to be big next year...
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daglesj said:
Chap I get paid to fix, upgrade and support.

I don't get paid to whine and bitch about petty OS politics or how something isn't fair.
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No, You get paid to support, and if you don't oppose bad software, that brings nothing of benefit to the table in a professional environment then you're not doing a very good job.
You just have to man up and get on with it. Life is too short. The world isn't stopping for you or me. So go with it or quit.
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I beat mircosoft likes that, when people take their bullshit lying down. Oh how happy would they be if noone spoke up.

Windows 10 is fine if your work ethic looks like this:

flowchart-for-problem-resolution-1-728.jpg


"Just go along with it" "Don't fight it" The exact words that a school yard bully would utter.
 
daglesj said:
Some battles in life are worth fighting, this isn't one of them.
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If you don't think it's worth fighting for then why are you fighting?
People children usually say shit like this just after they lost an argument. "Well yeah, but I don't even care!"

Because I absolutely think that anti consumer software that invades people's private spheres, and takes away control of their own PC is worth fighting against.
 
heatlesssun said:
Whatever issues Windows 10 has it's actually done quite well with gamers. Windows 7 is now 8 years old, it's done. Enterprise adoption of Windows 10 is going to be big next year, we've started our migration of 200k+ desktops and virtually all of our client compatibility issues have been identified and corrected to my knowledge, we have a web site that's tracking all the issues.

While Windows 10 is clearly having its problems, take a look at OS X and particularly Linux in this survey. While the Netmarketshare numbers showed impressive growth for Linux in the overall PC market this month this Steam survey shows the exact opposite in Linux gaming falling .11% perfect to .63%.
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Yes adoption will get big in enterprise, but not because they want windows 10, but because they must do something before MS pulls the plug on 7. And 8 isn't really an option as that's getting pulled soon after, and no-one likes the interface anyway. Being the only choice is not a testament to how good it is and how badly people want it. It's just proof that MS created a one-way street, where you either quit or go where they want. I'm also using 10, but not because I wanted it, but because I had no other choice. That doesn't mean I approve of the policies in W10, and it's philosophy. I do everything in my power to reduce the pain it causes, but it's an uphill battle. And I've been tempted to go back more than once. And I'm still baffled why are there people defending 10 this vehemently unless they get paid for it. Why is loosing control over your PC a good thing?
 
nilepez said:
Noting that people hate change is not a profound statement nor a statement on the quality of either OS. People on these boards said similar things about 7 vs XP. And FYI, a lot of businesses would have stuck with XP if they'd had the choice. And you know what else? They would have stuck with Windows 2000 if they'd had a choice.

There are people who want games to be like they were in (insert a time when they were younger) and most people spend all their days after they're 40 (if not younger) pining for the good old days (pick the years between when they were 15-40) of music. OH how new music is crap but it was so great in the <insert decade>.

10 is fine and no the music of your youth wasn't the best music ever, no matter how much you (and perhaps I) think it is.
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Ha ha, the "you just don't like change" argument! Always fun to pull that one out when there are clear, objective design problems with the new version. I was an early adopter of XP, because 98 was a piece of a shit in comparison. Given enough time, it would ALWAYS blue screen on me. XP didn't. That alone was worth the teething pains. I'll take a GOOD change any day. It's the objectively BAD changes that I have issue with. I'd probably be on Windows 10 right now if there weren't mandatory updates that can break things. I want an OS that's stable and won't introduce NEW problems on its own, ever. If something about the OS needs to be changed due to new requirements of a piece of software or hardware, I can cross that bridge when I come to it and approach it on my own terms. Windows 10 completely removes that control and harms productivity for me because now it's perpetually changing. Maybe 99% of the time the changes aren't a problem and 1% of the time it really fucks me over. I consider that a step down from 0% of the time because I chose when and how it changed. That's a massive paradigm shift in how a desktop OS functions, not just the control panel looking a little different.

But no, I get it, I like a stable system, therefore I hate change.
 
tetris42 said:
Ha ha, the "you just don't like change" argument! Always fun to pull that one out when there are clear, objective design problems with the new version. I was an early adopter of XP, because 98 was a piece of a shit in comparison. Given enough time, it would ALWAYS blue screen on me. XP didn't. That alone was worth the teething pains. I'll take a GOOD change any day. It's the objectively BAD changes that I have issue with. I'd probably be on Windows 10 right now if there weren't mandatory updates that can break things. I want an OS that's stable and won't introduce NEW problems on its own, ever. If something about the OS needs to be changed due to new requirements of a piece of software or hardware, I can cross that bridge when I come to it and approach it on my own terms. Windows 10 completely removes that control and harms productivity for me because now it's perpetually changing. Maybe 99% of the time the changes aren't a problem and 1% of the time it really fucks me over. I consider that a step down from 0% of the time because I chose when and how it changed. That's a massive paradigm shift in how a desktop OS functions, not just the control panel looking a little different.

But no, I get it, I like a stable system, therefore I hate change.
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Interesting outlook on XP. I was a beta tester for XP in the day (got it sent to me on disk, still have the cover!) and even in beta I found the same thing. People crap on about how good Windows 98 was and how bad Windows Me was, TBH they were both shit, it's just that people's memories of how shit they both were have faded.
 
BulletDust said:
Interesting outlook on XP. I was a beta tester for XP in the day (got it sent to me on disk, still have the cover!) and even in beta I found the same thing. People crap on about how good Windows 98 was and how bad Windows Me was, TBH they were both shit, it's just that people's memories of how shit they both were have faded.
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Yeah, well the top two things I look for in any OS are:

1. Stability
2. Being able to run my programs

XP was MILES ahead of Win9x in stability. It took a bit of a hit in games compatibility, but was much better than Win2k in that department. Never having it blue screen in that case was worth the tradeoff. In the case of 10, I'm not assured either variable because it's perpetually changing.
 
Heatless, you've been wrong about everything from whether or not people want a Start Menu to this discussion today.

Windows 10 is a trainwreck. Both 8 and 10 are feature regressions from Windows 7. Nobody is happy with the state of 10 today. We're on the precipice, if Microsoft does not release a proper successor to Windows 7 they will lose the desktop market as people move on to better solutions. Linux market share has doubled again just like I predicted, and it's tracking strongly with the presence of Chrome devices in retail. If Google or somebody decides to start competing with Windows notebooks and desktops Microsoft is going to be in serious trouble. First thing I did when I bought my last laptop was rip out the 1TB HDD with Windows 10 for a 250GB SSD with Linux Mint. It would have been nice just to skip the Windows tax altogether.
 
DeathFromBelow said:
Heatless, you've been wrong about everything from whether or not people want a Start Menu to this discussion today.

Windows 10 is a trainwreck. Both 8 and 10 are feature regressions from Windows 7. Nobody is happy with the state of 10 today. We're on the precipice, if Microsoft does not release a proper successor to Windows 7 they will lose the desktop market as people move on to better solutions. Linux market share has doubled again just like I predicted, and it's tracking strongly with the presence of Chrome devices in retail. If Google or somebody decides to start competing with Windows notebooks and desktops Microsoft is going to be in serious trouble. First thing I did when I bought my last laptop was rip out the 1TB HDD with Windows 10 for a 250GB SSD with Linux Mint. It would have been nice just to skip the Windows tax altogether.
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No, Heatlesssun's always right because he has all the fancy shit.
 
DeathFromBelow said:
Heatless, you've been wrong about everything from whether or not people want a Start Menu to this discussion today.

Windows 10 is a trainwreck. Both 8 and 10 are feature regressions from Windows 7. Nobody is happy with the state of 10 today. We're on the precipice, if Microsoft does not release a proper successor to Windows 7 they will lose the desktop market as people move on to better solutions. Linux market share has doubled again just like I predicted, and it's tracking strongly with the presence of Chrome devices in retail. If Google or somebody decides to start competing with Windows notebooks and desktops Microsoft is going to be in serious trouble. First thing I did when I bought my last laptop was rip out the 1TB HDD with Windows 10 for a 250GB SSD with Linux Mint. It would have been nice just to skip the Windows tax altogether.
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I would love to be wrong, but I think MS still has a stranglehold on a large portion of the market just due to entrenchment and decades worth of software compatibility. I can't predict which way businesses will swing, though for gaming, again, Windows has a captive audience. Just about every gamer on 7 now is going to have to capitulate to 10 at some point or another if they want to keep playing games. I'm predicting 2020 is likely when that will happen.

Linux is a great alternative for some people depending on their usage, but it suffers from lack of general exposure to the average user and compatibility for the long tail of specialized software people can use. I'd say changing the former is the most important. You mention the Windows tax, that's exactly what's keeping Windows on top: it's the only pre-installed option for the vast majority of vendors. For the vast majority of people, their PC comes with Windows out of the box. I think that's what has to change in order for the marketshare to shift in any dramatic way.
 
tetris42 said:
I would love to be wrong, but I think MS still has a stranglehold on a large portion of the market just due to entrenchment and decades worth of software compatibility. I can't predict which way businesses will swing, though for gaming, again, Windows has a captive audience. Just about every gamer on 7 now is going to have to capitulate to 10 at some point or another if they want to keep playing games. I'm predicting 2020 is likely when that will happen.

Linux is a great alternative for some people depending on their usage, but it suffers from lack of general exposure to the average user and compatibility for the long tail of specialized software people can use. I'd say changing the former is the most important. You mention the Windows tax, that's exactly what's keeping Windows on top: it's the only pre-installed option for the vast majority of vendors. For the vast majority of people, their PC comes with Windows out of the box. I think that's what has to change in order for the marketshare to shift in any dramatic way.
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I would have to agree for the most part. Windows is dug in pretty deep. Having said that.... as I see it there is one major player who has a huge interest in seeing that end.

Google has been watching MS eat into their advertising business pretty hard since windows 10 hit. MS has leveraged windows data collection to refine bings value proposition to advertisers... on top of the force feeding of ads through the OS itself. Google has chrome OS and its done alright in areas where a cloud os made sense. Now they are making a pretty strong enterprise play and I fully expect them to show some pretty surprising penetration numbers fairly quickly. Still having said that... the majority of that sweet sweet ad revenue is coming from regular end users. I wouldn't expect google to sit back and be happy with MS going from 1/4 the revenue of end of life yahoo to 5+ billion a quarter in revenue in 2 years time. The market has grown a bit for sure but a good chunk of that came at googles expense. They have launched Chrome Enterprise already with a nice big list of things for enterprise including active directory support to ensure they can wiggle in. My bet is before windows 7s end of life date hits... Google launches Chrome OEM. No sub price, zero cost... I believe a more fully aimed desktop chromeos is on the way. I would expect Google to announce some sort of deal with Valve likely. If google is serious they may well go all out and even through major marketing money behind it.... it may make a lot of sense spent a few handfuls of billions pushing oems and marketing the crap out of a OS to put a damper on Bing creeping into their back yard.

Now I'm not saying the new master is better then the old master for the masses. However if that all shakes out and google does go the Valve deal route. Those of us running Linux will reap the rewards... unless Google does their own thing or signs some crazy strange deal to bring PS4 games to chromeos or something. lol
 
I'd like to add my random two cents about people comparing win7 release to win10 release.

Win 7 = "Flawed, it has changes people won't like, but there are huge improvements over Vista"
Win10 release = fake news. Every major website talking about it has a glowing review, touting it as "the next big thing" like its a new Samsung phone. It couldn't be more obvious how shill it is.

For example:
Engadget Win7:
Where Vista felt like a sprawling mess, Windows 7 has patched up the holes and feels like a tight, unified mechanism. It's hardly full of surprises, but that's usually a good thing when it comes to operating systems. If you've never been a Windows person, there's hardly anything here that will change your mind about that. However, most human beings on this planet have some sort of interaction with Windows on a regular basis, whether by choice or necessity, and Windows 7 is great news for those millions of souls.
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Instead of switching up the formula, Windows 7 is really an extension and a refinement of the true tenets of Windows (that we just made up): broad hardware compatibility, coatings of usability over deep functionality, and a "everything for everybody" approach to feature sets and SKUs. With such broad aims, and such a diverse userbase, it's no wonder that there are plenty of spots where the OS still falls short, but taken as a whole it's clear that Microsoft has taken a strong step forward with Windows 7. The world will know on October 22.
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Win 10:
I had high hopes for Windows 10 after Microsoft's Build conference, where I noted that, for once, the company was acting as a leader, not a follower. Windows 10 delivers the most refined desktop experience ever from Microsoft, and yet it's so much more than that. It's also a decent tablet OS, and it's ready for a world filled with hybrid devices. And, barring another baffling screwup, it looks like a significant step forward for mobile. Heck, it makes the Xbox One a more useful machine.

It's nice, for once, to be able to recommend a new version of Windows without any hesitation. If you've got a Windows 7 or 8 machine, there's no reason not to take advantage of Microsoft's free upgrade offer. And if, for some reason, you have a machine that's older than Windows 7, Windows 10 is good enough to justify getting a new computer.
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I'm sure you'd have no problem finding many more comparisons where a large digital only or even once-print website had a balance of pro's/con's about win 7 but somehow thinks win 10 is near perfection.
 
lilbabycat said:
I'd like to add my random two cents about people comparing win7 release to win10 release.

Win 7 = "Flawed, it has changes people won't like, but there are huge improvements over Vista"
Win10 release = fake news. Every major website talking about it has a glowing review, touting it as "the next big thing" like its a new Samsung phone. It couldn't be more obvious how shill it is.

For example:
Engadget Win7:

Win 10:


I'm sure you'd have no problem finding many more comparisons where a large digital only or even once-print website had a balance of pro's/con's about win 7 but somehow thinks win 10 is near perfection.
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What I like is how everytime there's an article highlighting a decline in Windows 10 usage, you'll find another article written probably hours after highlighting how Windows 10 adoption is increasing.

It's worse than politics and the Murdoch media empi....I mean....Propaganda machine.
 
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M76 said:
If you don't think it's worth fighting for then why are you fighting?
People children usually say shit like this just after they lost an argument. "Well yeah, but I don't even care!"

Because I absolutely think that anti consumer software that invades people's private spheres, and takes away control of their own PC is worth fighting against.
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Chap, you are more than welcome to waste your time over this. I'm 46 and have bills to pay and other stuff to be getting on with.

There is no argument. I'm just not bothered enough to get upset over changes to how an operating system works. In the world there is some really nasty shit going on and I'd rather get pissed off over those issues, than some telemetry or trivial lack of control over some features in an OS. Just need to know what battles to pick. There are always other OS alternatives you can use. Things tend to go in circles, it could all change in another 10 years or so.

You are angry about it, fine. Please accept that some of us aren't. That's not to say I'm not angry about other things. ;)
 
Oh look, the perpetual this vs that arguments, only this on is the Windows Operating System stuff. :D Thing is, nothing will change regardless of what you or I think and regardless, 10 does work well on a majority of hardware and rarely breaks anything, even with major updates. (It is just made out to break a lot because that is usually all we hear about, folks complaining.) Cars, tools, tv's, home appliances, etc, etc...... it is the same old, same old.

I have been in this game long enough to know that the same situation happens with every new version of Windows, whether 10, 8, Vista, XP and earlier on. Heck, every year is supposedly the year of the LInux Desktop because Windows is a failure. :D
 
daglesj said:
Chap, you are more than welcome to waste your time over this. I'm 46 and have bills to pay and other stuff to be getting on with.

There is no argument. I'm just not bothered enough to get upset over changes to how an operating system works. In the world there is some really nasty shit going on and I'd rather get pissed off over those issues, than some telemetry or trivial lack of control over some features in an OS. Just need to know what battles to pick. There are always other OS alternatives you can use. Things tend to go in circles, it could all change in another 10 years or so.

You are angry about it, fine. Please accept that some of us aren't. That's not to say I'm not angry about other things. ;)
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This is exactly what I have been saying for the last few years. I used to get all up in one OS is better or one OS is worse type of stuff and you know what? It made absolutely no difference and did not make my computing enjoyment any better. I like all the OSes but I prefer to have Windows 10 as my primary host OS now, it just works and gives me no concern whether it is going to work today or not.

Also, I use Linux through a virtual machine because, it is very fast there and I do not need to have it running as my primary OS. I do not have the money nor need to build multiple machines just so I can run it as a base OS and do not need too. By the way, I recently even tried to see what would happen if I were to make it my primary OS at work with Windows in a virtual and you know what? I found that I needed to do almost everything through the virtual anyways so, for me, what was the point?
 
ManofGod said:
Cars, tools, tv's, home appliances, etc, etc...... it is the same old, same old.
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Sure, if cars, tools, tv's, and home appliances phoned home to a central server that modified their operational specs from time to time. If you maintain those things, they all still work as intended 20 years later. It's not the same old, same old. That's exactly the problem.
 
tetris42 said:
Sure, if cars, tools, tv's, and home appliances phoned home to a central server that modified their operational specs from time to time. It's not the same old, same old. That's exactly the problem.
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Dude, it exactly the same old, same old but, I have no desire to argue it and therefore, I will leave it with this: tetris42, you are right, I am wrong, whatever, do not care, enjoy.
 
ManofGod said:
Dude, it exactly the same old, same old but, I have no desire to argue it and therefore, I will leave it with this: tetris42, you are right, I am wrong, whatever, do not care, enjoy.
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Well thanks for the "I don't want to discuss this, that's why I'm posting here" post I guess?
 
M76 said:
And I'm still baffled why are there people defending 10 this vehemently unless they get paid for it. Why is loosing control over your PC a good thing?
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I'm using Windows 10 with more hardware and software than any version of Windows I've ever used and I've been using Windows for nearly three decades now. The things I want and need from PCs aren't as well supported by anything else. I'd lose much more control using something that doesn't do what I want and need.
 
daglesj said:
Chap I get paid to fix, upgrade and support.

I don't get paid to whine and bitch about petty OS politics or how something isn't fair.

You just have to man up and get on with it. Life is too short. The world isn't stopping for you or me. So go with it or quit.
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Ever supported an enterprise environment with more than 50 clients? Because it sure as shit doesn't sound like it. There are things I like about 10 and things I don't. It is installed on all my personal laptops and my wifes machine, but not my personal desktop or work laptop. Why? because for basic users and basic use it is fine in a home environment. I'm not a basic user and I used it up until they took away features I actively used and then it got removed. However home and small business are an entirely different animal than large enterprise and in that environment 10 is a nightmare. It isn't about os politics or anything so silly as that. It is strictly about performance, cost, legacy support and domain reliability. All of those things win 10 does exceptionally poorly at this stage. Now if you have an extremely basic domain that doesn't deal with legacy anything, well lucky you and 10 might be fine in that unique use case. However for everyone else it is a giant pain in the ass.
 
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I grew up in a generation where you didn't tell anyone anything they didn't truthfully NEED to know.

Google changed all that when they started offering up "free" services that only cost some of your personal information, and now a whole generation accepts that as the norm and are moving up to "bah they can know it all I don't care". Then those same people wonder how they became victims of identity theft.

MS took it to the next level and put data farming right into the OS, something Google is likely pretty envious of, since you can always choose to use products other than Google's, but trying to use an OS other than Windows is hard as hell now in the modern world.

Coupled with the fact they are going to pretty much force people to upgrade to Win10 now just to get updates, and they'll have everyone's basic info.

MS didn't offer up Win10 to be nice, they did it to get an established data farm going on the cheap and have made back probably every cent it cost them and then some selling off the data from those who took them up on the offer.

And people think this is just fine. :rolleyes:
 
Windows 7 growing faster than 10 is definitelt surprising given how MS is all but forcing the switch.

Also, two things I'm seeing that are also interesting:

1) Intel CPU use increased.

2) AMD GPUs are now almost the same as people running Intel's integrated GPU.
 
Damar said:
I grew up in a generation where you didn't tell anyone anything they didn't truthfully NEED to know.

Google changed all that when they started offering up "free" services that only cost some of your personal information, and now a whole generation accepts that as the norm and are moving up to "bah they can know it all I don't care". Then those same people wonder how they became victims of identity theft.

MS took it to the next level and put data farming right into the OS, something Google is likely pretty envious of, since you can always choose to use products other than Google's, but trying to use an OS other than Windows is hard as hell now in the modern world.

Coupled with the fact they are going to pretty much force people to upgrade to Win10 now just to get updates, and they'll have everyone's basic info.

MS didn't offer up Win10 to be nice, they did it to get an established data farm going on the cheap and have made back probably every cent it cost them and then some selling off the data from those who took them up on the offer.

And people think this is just fine. :rolleyes:
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Please, prove to me that they are "farming data", not just your conjecture and opinion. I need solid, verifiable proof, not an interpretation of a document. Until I see actual proof, it is not happening, not now nor at all. :mad::rolleyes:

Edit: No, people think it is just fine that they believe something like what you are selling without any proof to back it up.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Ever supported an enterprise environment with more than 50 clients? Because it sure as shit doesn't sound like it. There are things I like about 10 and things I don't. It is installed on all my personal laptops and my wifes machine, but not my personal desktop or work laptop. Why? because for basic users and basic use it is fine in a home environment. I'm not a basic user and I used it up until they took away features I actively used and then it got removed. However home and small business are an entirely different animal than large enterprise and in that environment 10 is a nightmare. It isn't about os politics or anything so silly as that. It is strictly about performance, cost, legacy support and domain reliability. All of those things win 10 does exceptionally poorly at this stage. Now if you have an extremely basic domain that doesn't deal with legacy anything, well lucky you and 10 might be fine in that unique use case. However for everyone else it is a giant pain in the ass.
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I would tend to agree with you in general here. We are seeing more "only annoying, but chaotic for the user base" issues like start menu resets and like a previous poster sleep issues, resolution issues etc... when testing the feature updates.

Though one thing I find interesting and ultimately a good thing... The software industry is following suite and actually fixing their stuff. The compatibility issues we would have during the major upgrades previously are starting to get fixed FASTER by our 3rd party vendors now. Those crazy small niche vendors we were previously slaves to, who would tell us they will support the .net released 6 months ago, next year... are now coming back to us with 3 month time frames for added support.

Just like Vista driver changes, I think 3rd party devs are starting to fix their software, becoming more compliant to Windows "best practices" etc. People tend to forget that 3rd party vendors did some crazy crap to get feature xyz implemented since MS didn't have it yet, now MS is sorta locking down dangerous areas of the OS where vendors abused features to get their "result" , These vendors are are now learning how their duct tap crazy fixes are not worth it anymore.

Similar thing happened with UAC though there are still lots of software that still require admin rights for no good reason.

I think in a year or so more I think software/driver makers (and MS) will figure out how to make agility work better in the MS ecosystem.
 
ManofGod said:
Please, prove to me that they are "farming data", not just your conjecture and opinion. I need solid, verifiable proof, not an interpretation of a document. Until I see actual proof, it is not happening, not now nor at all. :mad::rolleyes:

Edit: No, people think it is just fine that they believe something like what you are selling without any proof to back it up.
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Can you prove they aren't? Nope, you cant. Just like God. Just like Aliens. Just like lots of things, but hey, lets assume the path that lets me sleep easy at night because no mega-corp would do something bad to me to make a buck. Not like its ever happened before, well, more than dozens of times, even as recent as the past few years.

Look in the Win10 settings for data collection. Sure it gives you some options, but its never 100% crystal clear where it stops or where that data goes once it leaves your house. How much is anyone's guess. There's no option to completely disable that, and there should be. Period. The fact that there isn't should be telling.

"Don't worry, trust us" has been their motto all along. If you want to put blind faith in MS that they aren't out to make money on your personal info, go for it. But ask yourself, why give Win10 away if it was sooooo great?? Why not market it and make money on every copy sold? Because they are making money on the data its collecting instead, just like Google does to target their ads.

If something is free, you (and your information) are the product. Google built an empire off it, and you don't think MS will try to capitalize as well? Putting the telemetry collection into the OS means they get info from you even if you don't use Bing or IE. Its a genius move if you think about it. It's Google's game taken to the next level.

You can believe what you want, but no corporation has the best interest of anyone in mind but itself, and you and your data are worth billions in the marketplace, and money wins every single time.

Its amazing how trusting people are, but I guess the corporations rely on that to do the things they do and not get challenged.

"Trust us" they say... Um... no. I don't. None of us should.
 
Damar said:
Can you prove they aren't? Nope, you cant. Just like God. Just like Aliens. Just like lots of things, but hey, lets assume the path that lets me sleep easy at night because no mega-corp would do something bad to me to make a buck. Not like its ever happened before, well, more than dozens of times, even as recent as the past few years.

Look in the Win10 settings for data collection. Sure it gives you some options, but its never 100% crystal clear where it stops or where that data goes once it leaves your house. How much is anyone's guess. There's no option to completely disable that, and there should be. Period. The fact that there isn't should be telling.

"Don't worry, trust us" has been their motto all along. If you want to put blind faith in MS that they aren't out to make money on your personal info, go for it. But ask yourself, why give Win10 away if it was sooooo great?? Why not market it and make money on every copy sold? Because they are making money on the data its collecting instead, just like Google does to target their ads.

If something is free, you (and your information) are the product. Google built an empire off it, and you don't think MS will try to capitalize as well? Putting the telemetry collection into the OS means they get info from you even if you don't use Bing or IE. Its a genius move if you think about it. It's Google's game taken to the next level.

You can believe what you want, but no corporation has the best interest of anyone in mind but itself, and you and your data are worth billions in the marketplace, and money wins every single time.

Its amazing how trusting people are, but I guess the corporations rely on that to do the things they do and not get challenged.

"Trust us" they say... Um... no. I don't. None of us should.
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The onus is on you to provide proof, not the other way around. Until you can do that, you are giving us nothing more than whatever it is you are selling. Also, we already know why they gave it away as a free upgrade and it was not for ad revenue and selling information and if you want the answer, that is what the search function in these forums are for.

Your logic basically says that Linux is free then because they are harvesting your data. You see, logical fallacies do not quite work they way you thought they did, eh? I am capable of actually thinking things through and do not simply take things by blind faith because some internet dude says it is so. Proof please, I require proof.
 
Microsoft will have to prove they aren't collecting info from me before i install that OS on my computer. How about that?
 
techie81 said:
Microsoft will have to prove they aren't collecting info from me before i install that OS on my computer. How about that?
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Good for you, your computer, you can do what you wish with it. That is not proof though, just your personal preference.

Edit: Oh, and I am not really sure how the steam survey is ever really accurate, beyond a coarse overview, that is. I have yet to receive a survey on both my Windows 10 computers and I used to have Windows 7 and then 8.1. From my perspective of one, Windows 7 and 8.1 have fewer users and Windows 10 has more.
 
M76 said:
If you don't think it's worth fighting for then why are you fighting?
People children usually say shit like this just after they lost an argument. "Well yeah, but I don't even care!"

Because I absolutely think that anti consumer software that invades people's private spheres, and takes away control of their own PC is worth fighting against.
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No that sounds more like something a Mom would say. Maybe your mom needs to have a talk with you ;)
 
M76 said:
Yes adoption will get big in enterprise, but not because they want windows 10, but because they must do something before MS pulls the plug on 7. And 8 isn't really an option as that's getting pulled soon after, and no-one likes the interface anyway. Being the only choice is not a testament to how good it is and how badly people want it. It's just proof that MS created a one-way street, where you either quit or go where they want. I'm also using 10, but not because I wanted it, but because I had no other choice. That doesn't mean I approve of the policies in W10, and it's philosophy. I do everything in my power to reduce the pain it causes, but it's an uphill battle. And I've been tempted to go back more than once. And I'm still baffled why are there people defending 10 this vehemently unless they get paid for it. Why is loosing control over your PC a good thing?
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And how is that different from 2000 and XP? Answer: it's the same.

Businesses upgrade when they have to.
 
ChadD said:
I would have to agree for the most part. Windows is dug in pretty deep. Having said that.... as I see it there is one major player who has a huge interest in seeing that end.

Google has been watching MS eat into their advertising business pretty hard since windows 10 hit. MS has leveraged windows data collection to refine bings value proposition to advertisers... on top of the force feeding of ads through the OS itself. Google has chrome OS and its done alright in areas where a cloud os made sense. Now they are making a pretty strong enterprise play and I fully expect them to show some pretty surprising penetration numbers fairly quickly. Still having said that... the majority of that sweet sweet ad revenue is coming from regular end users. I wouldn't expect google to sit back and be happy with MS going from 1/4 the revenue of end of life yahoo to 5+ billion a quarter in revenue in 2 years time. The market has grown a bit for sure but a good chunk of that came at googles expense. They have launched Chrome Enterprise already with a nice big list of things for enterprise including active directory support to ensure they can wiggle in. My bet is before windows 7s end of life date hits... Google launches Chrome OEM. No sub price, zero cost... I believe a more fully aimed desktop chromeos is on the way. I would expect Google to announce some sort of deal with Valve likely. If google is serious they may well go all out and even through major marketing money behind it.... it may make a lot of sense spent a few handfuls of billions pushing oems and marketing the crap out of a OS to put a damper on Bing creeping into their back yard.

Now I'm not saying the new master is better then the old master for the masses. However if that all shakes out and google does go the Valve deal route. Those of us running Linux will reap the rewards... unless Google does their own thing or signs some crazy strange deal to bring PS4 games to chromeos or something. lol
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Ads through the OS? The only ads I've seen were for Office and I think at one point they suggested apps (games?) in the start menu, but haven't seen that in ages (maybe I turned it off), but they were pretty unobtrusive. I don't even think I noticed them till people on here started complaining.
 
ManofGod said:
This is exactly what I have been saying for the last few years. I used to get all up in one OS is better or one OS is worse type of stuff and you know what? It made absolutely no difference and did not make my computing enjoyment any better. I like all the OSes but I prefer to have Windows 10 as my primary host OS now, it just works and gives me no concern whether it is going to work today or not.

Also, I use Linux through a virtual machine because, it is very fast there and I do not need to have it running as my primary OS. I do not have the money nor need to build multiple machines just so I can run it as a base OS and do not need too. By the way, I recently even tried to see what would happen if I were to make it my primary OS at work with Windows in a virtual and you know what? I found that I needed to do almost everything through the virtual anyways so, for me, what was the point?
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Me too. in my 20s, I was bashing MS all the time about their practices, but at this point, I just don't care. They're not as bad as they were at their 90s anti-competitive peak. Telemetry doesn't bug me at all and the ads that everyone complains about aren't on my machine. They were at one point, but after everyone pointed out I was getting ads (cuz I hadn't really noticed), I googled it and turned that option off. Non-problem solved.
 
tetris42 said:
Sure, if cars, tools, tv's, and home appliances phoned home to a central server that modified their operational specs from time to time. If you maintain those things, they all still work as intended 20 years later. It's not the same old, same old. That's exactly the problem.
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You mean like a Tesla?
 
ManofGod said:
Good for you, your computer, you can do what you wish with it. That is not proof though, just your personal preference.

Edit: Oh, and I am not really sure how the steam survey is ever really accurate, beyond a coarse overview, that is. I have yet to receive a survey on both my Windows 10 computers and I used to have Windows 7 and then 8.1. From my perspective of one, Windows 7 and 8.1 have fewer users and Windows 10 has more.
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They have a lot of users and I suspect the survey requests are sent out randomly. I've had it 1-3 times over the last 3-5 years. the last (only?) one was since 10 came out.
 
M76 said:
Here almost everyone still uses 7. And the mere mention of 10 in professional circles exacts nothing but frowns and ridicule.
The only places where I saw people using 10, were companies where they were completely clueless about IT.

Windows 10 is certainly not a decent viable solution. They're basically holding a gun to every gamer's head to move to it after tricking the rest into installing it involuntarily.
Vista was actually a decent OS compared to 10. It didn't try to take control away from you, and it certainly wasn't sending droves of info on you back for "software improvement" purposes.. It's biggest issue was that at it's release most hardware wasn't powerful enough for it, even those that came with it pre-installed. So people ended up hating it. And of course there were the initial driver issues, that were solved by the time 7 came along.
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This is nonsense, windows 10 can be annoying after updates, but it's actually faster than vista or 7. I've had no issues running any games on it all. Game mode defaulting to being on is my biggest gripe because it can hinder performance but that's easy to turn off.
 
nilepez said:
Me too. in my 20s, I was bashing MS all the time about their practices, but at this point, I just don't care. They're not as bad as they were at their 90s anti-competitive peak. Telemetry doesn't bug me at all and the ads that everyone complains about aren't on my machine. They were at one point, but after everyone pointed out I was getting ads (cuz I hadn't really noticed), I googled it and turned that option off. Non-problem solved.
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You, as well as many others wouldn't notice advertisements built into their computer's operating system, but I would so your point is moot.
 
nilepez said:
Ads through the OS? The only ads I've seen were for Office and I think at one point they suggested apps (games?) in the start menu, but haven't seen that in ages (maybe I turned it off), but they were pretty unobtrusive. I don't even think I noticed them till people on here started complaining.
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MS uses their OS data to enhance the targeting abilities of their Bing ads. Google does demographic targeting... but bing does it better.

Why do you think MS AD revenue has went from a 150 million or so a quarter to north of 5 billion now... in the 2 years since Windows 10 launched.

If you don't know I'll tell you its because the large fish in the advertising industry have realised that bing is actually a good platform to use with the old guard advertisers that are finding less value in traditional media. If for instance you want to advertise Always Teen Pads... Bing can target women 18-24 very specifically. MS is clearly using their install base data to target customers. If you don't believe me do a little bit of research... pretend your looking to place a large very targeted online ad blitz and read up on what the industry thinks about MS right now. Their ad revenue is exploding with good reason.
 
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