Ubuntu.... what a POS

BulletDust said:

Updates installing, there's that Nvidia driver!

Updates finished:

And just for the hell of it, to be sure over 80 PPA's are all ok with dependencies and everything hasn't fallen in a heap I performed a reboot - And lo and behold, like every time before this update, everything is perfectly fine:

You have little experience with Linux, you are regurgitating garbage you read on the interwebz.

Click to expand...

Lol, okay your singular experience in that one instance with literally zero proof everything is working...okay man you win. I literally cannot compete with that level of obscurity.

nekrosoft13 said:

Its been many years since I used linux, so I decided to give it a try.

Installed Ubuntu, and tried to install nvidia drivers from nvidia.com, so finally after struggling with terminal I got them installed.

After reboot I got greeted with /dev/sda2: Clean, bunch of numbers....

When I googled that, it says to press shift to enter recovery terminal... tried holding shift, tried rapidly pressing it, nothing works.

so after that I decided to just reinstall ubuntu and try again. pressing alt-ctrl-del works, PC reboots, but it won't boot from CD, I can't enter bios (del key does nothing), F12 (boot selection) doesn't do anything.

None of the keys in bios splash screen work....

all I get is /dev/sda2: Clean, bunch of numbers....


Ubuntu what POS....

Click to expand...

Sudo install windows

Can't we all just get along?

NoOther said:

Lol, okay your singular experience in that one instance with literally zero proof everything is working...okay man you win. I literally cannot compete with that level of obscurity.

Click to expand...

i win?! I never realised it was a competition?

There happened to be an update available, that update contained an Nvidia driver from the Ubuntu driver PPA. You claim that PPA's are fraught with issues, which is a mistruth, I posted the updating experience available at the time and nothing went wrong with ~80 PPA's installed on my system. There was no cherry picking, everything was completely random and therefore completely unbiased.

If I've posted 'zero truth' using a real life example with screenshots, than what you're posting falls into a region somewhere below that.

NoOther said:

I could sit here and explain the fact that at least with Windows updates a lot of the more popular Hardware direct manufacturer drivers are automatically included with the Windows updates without having add any PPA.

Click to expand...

Windows needs PPA's, with the addition of PPA's malicious software and viruses stand the potential to be considerably reduced. Having said that I believe a central repository may eventually be getting forced into Windows users no matter what they believe about the pro's and con's of PPA's.

This idea of yours that PPA's are bad and break your system is complete garbage.

I'm not a Ubuntu fan (I hate Unity) but this is a PEBKAC issue here.

Ubuntu ships with the drivers you need, no need to mess with manual installs and break shit.

Use the built in package manager. It's GUI, installs 99% of what you need. You only very rarely need to go anywhere else and download and install something. This isn't Windows. The package manager downloads and installs everything for you automatically, with an app-store like interface.

Zarathustra[H] said:

I'm not a Ubuntu fan (I hate Unity) but this is a PEBKAC issue here.

Ubuntu ships with the drivers you need, no need to mess with manual installs and break shit.

Use the built in package manager. It's GUI, installs 99% of what you need. You only very rarely need to go anywhere else and download and install something. This isn't Windows. The package manager downloads and installs everything for you automatically, with an app-store like interface.

Click to expand...

Exactly, the only reason I use PPA's is because I want the latest and greatest versions of all software - And to emphasize yet again, with ~80 PPA's added to my system and the many other *buntu based systems I have lying around here, I've never encountered a single issue.

And for the record, I also hate Unity, MATE all the way baby!

BulletDust said:

Exactly, the only reason I use PPA's is because I want the latest and greatest versions of all software - And to emphasize yet again, with ~80 PPA's added to my system and the many other *buntu based systems I have lying around here, I've never encountered a single issue.

And for the record, I also hate Unity, MATE all the way baby!

Click to expand...

I chose Cinnamon instead, and I am very happy with it. Mate is good too, but looks a little.. flat.. to me.

I tend to put Cinnamon on Desktops/Laptops and LXDE on resource starved systems.

IMHO, a modern linux distribution is so much easier and faster to install, and set up than Windows. Everything just works. No hunting for and downloading drivers. No more than 15 minutes after starting the install, you have a system up and running, unlike my last disaster with Windows 10 which took like 4 hours (granted that was an unusually bad install, but...)

I've used Cinnamon, I used to use it when I ran Mint.

I liked Cinnamon, but found it limiting in relation to customisation and it always bothered me how I was limited to one panel on dual monitors - If I wanted more than one I had to use a hack. Apart from that, there really isn't that much between MATE and Cinnamon once you really start customising, Cinnamon has better animations by default, but that can all be added to MATE quite easily.

My Cinnamon desktop in the day:



And MATE:

BulletDust said:

I've used Cinnamon, I used to use it when I ran Mint.

I liked Cinnamon, but found it limiting in relation to customisation and it always bothered me how I was limited to one panel on dual monitors - If I wanted more than one I had to use a hack. Apart from that, there really isn't that much between MATE and Cinnamon once you really start customising, Cinnamon has better animations by default, but that can all be added to MATE quite easily.

My Cinnamon desktop in the day:



And MATE:

Click to expand...

Ahh, I never felt the need for multiple panels. I never even tried adding them, so I didn't notice that difference.

NoOther said:

I could sit here and explain the fact that at least with Windows updates a lot of the more popular Hardware direct manufacturer drivers are automatically included with the Windows updates without having add any PPA.

Click to expand...

Linux includes ALL its hardware drivers in the kernel. No need for updates. The only "drivers" people really worry about are the Nvidia closed source and to a lesser extent the AMD GPU kernel modules which are included in almost every major distribution. (the entire PPA thing with Ubuntu is simply a way for people to get a little newer version then the ones The Ubuntu guys push in their official flavor that ends up in business settings) For a corporate workstation setup Ubuntu likes to default to proven stable GPU drivers.... for a home user that would rather have the year newer driver that may not be quite as stable but be 5% faster in a few games ect they can load a PPA and go to town. For a company with workstations there is zero need to use a PPA for GPU drivers.

So its 100% = or better then windows.... unless your suggesting people actually use the windows driver MS installs by default for things like Nvidia GPUs.

We can argue the pros and cons of the monolithic Linux kernel design vs the micro kernel + device driver setup of Windows no doubt.... but as far as usability for end users go. At this point my vote is on the side of Linux.... one of the biggest things you have to convince windows->linux switchers of all the time is that they don't have to run to manufacturers websites all the time for hardware drivers. If you plug it in and it just works... why are you doubting things... just let it work. Of course it means people running on older kernels sometimes have slightly older hardware support... it means people buying something like Ryzen as soon as it launches are going to want to be running a distro that has the absolute newest kernel. No doubt that is one big disadvantage for Corporate users... which is where it sounds like most of your Linux experience comes from. That is why distros like RHEL are out there... where they run an older extremely stable kernel but back port in newer hardware code from the newer kernels.

BulletDust said:

Windows needs PPA's, with the addition of PPA's malicious software and viruses stand the potential to be considerably reduced. Having said that I believe a central repository may eventually be getting forced into Windows users no matter what they believe about the pro's and con's of PPA's.

This idea of yours that PPA's are bad and break your system is complete garbage.

Click to expand...

Well its the entire reason MS started doing the signed drivers thing. The main issue with having a system that allows manufacturers to create drivers for anything is that they do exactly that. Zero quality control... and zero filter to protect people against malicious drivers. So signing them was a security / quality control solution.

Linux on the other hand vets all drivers (with the only real exception being stupid NV drivers) as the code goes to the kernel developers and gets tested... and seen. Which also leads to others improving the same drivers. There are a great number of hardware drivers in the Linux kernel that where submitted in a 1.0 state by the manufacturer and later improved by other developers. (often salaried developers working for companies like Facebook/Google ect that happen to use that hardware)

At some point and I am surprised they haven't already done it ... I would yes expect MS to go the next step and disallow driver installation outside of windows update. Honestly it would kill all the bloatware I hear is part of lots of gaming hardware software installs for windows.

ChadD said:

Linux includes ALL its hardware drivers in the kernel. No need for updates. The only "drivers" people really worry about are the Nvidia closed source and to a lesser extent the AMD GPU kernel modules which are included in almost every major distribution. (the entire PPA thing with Ubuntu is simply a way for people to get a little newer version then the ones The Ubuntu guys push in their official flavor that ends up in business settings) For a corporate workstation setup Ubuntu likes to default to proven stable GPU drivers.... for a home user that would rather have the year newer driver that may not be quite as stable but be 5% faster in a few games ect they can load a PPA and go to town. For a company with workstations there is zero need to use a PPA for GPU drivers.

So its 100% = or better then windows.... unless your suggesting people actually use the windows driver MS installs by default for things like Nvidia GPUs.

We can argue the pros and cons of the monolithic Linux kernel design vs the micro kernel + device driver setup of Windows no doubt.... but as far as usability for end users go. At this point my vote is on the side of Linux.... one of the biggest things you have to convince windows->linux switchers of all the time is that they don't have to run to manufacturers websites all the time for hardware drivers. If you plug it in and it just works... why are you doubting things... just let it work. Of course it means people running on older kernels sometimes have slightly older hardware support... it means people buying something like Ryzen as soon as it launches are going to want to be running a distro that has the absolute newest kernel. No doubt that is one big disadvantage for Corporate users... which is where it sounds like most of your Linux experience comes from. That is why distros like RHEL are out there... where they run an older extremely stable kernel but back port in newer hardware code from the newer kernels.

Click to expand...

Fresh installs of Windows 7 on OEM laptops when you have no idea what hardware is in them and have to do Google searches via hardware ID's to find the correct drivers - Bleh! Such a PITA, it can literally take hours just to find the right drivers to get WiFi working.

btw if anyone care, I still blame this on Ubuntu.


anyway, its not a hardware issue.

1) different USB port didn't work
2) different keyboard didn't work, USB or PS2 no difference

unplugged the drive with ubuntu, and wow, suddenly you can enter bios again, plugged the drive back into sata with ubuntu on it, no bios doesn't work again.

anyway, when I get some time I will try to install this POS again, since I have to use one application.

but to confirm again, drive with Ubuntu was preventing the key strokes to work in POST and prevented entering UEFI.

Secure boot and fast boot was disabled.



edit, after inserting the drive in different machine, wiping it, and putting it back in the same machine, suddenly everything works again.


Moral of story: Removed Ubuntu and everything works again.

now to try this POS again

original instal was in UEFI mode, would Ubuntu 16.04 play better with legacy boot?

ChadD said:

Linux includes ALL its hardware drivers in the kernel. No need for updates. The only "drivers" people really worry about are the Nvidia closed source and to a lesser extent the AMD GPU kernel modules which are included in almost every major distribution. (the entire PPA thing with Ubuntu is simply a way for people to get a little newer version then the ones The Ubuntu guys push in their official flavor that ends up in business settings) For a corporate workstation setup Ubuntu likes to default to proven stable GPU drivers.... for a home user that would rather have the year newer driver that may not be quite as stable but be 5% faster in a few games ect they can load a PPA and go to town. For a company with workstations there is zero need to use a PPA for GPU drivers.

So its 100% = or better then windows.... unless your suggesting people actually use the windows driver MS installs by default for things like Nvidia GPUs.

We can argue the pros and cons of the monolithic Linux kernel design vs the micro kernel + device driver setup of Windows no doubt.... but as far as usability for end users go. At this point my vote is on the side of Linux.... one of the biggest things you have to convince windows->linux switchers of all the time is that they don't have to run to manufacturers websites all the time for hardware drivers. If you plug it in and it just works... why are you doubting things... just let it work. Of course it means people running on older kernels sometimes have slightly older hardware support... it means people buying something like Ryzen as soon as it launches are going to want to be running a distro that has the absolute newest kernel. No doubt that is one big disadvantage for Corporate users... which is where it sounds like most of your Linux experience comes from. That is why distros like RHEL are out there... where they run an older extremely stable kernel but back port in newer hardware code from the newer kernels.

Click to expand...

reason why I installed Ubuntu is a single program, that program requires nvidia drivers with CUDA support to operate, generic driver will not do.

Orddie said:

why are you blaming the OS for not being able to get into your Bios?

Click to expand...

why?

Ubuntu drive present in machine = can't get into bios
Ubuntu drive removed from the machine = can enter bios

Research secure boot and stop believing an OS, any OS, on it's own can have anything to do with you not being able to access your bios.

This is getting stupid now.

Looks like a prime example of 'Secure boot disabled'.

Except secure boot is not disabled. Can we know a little more about the machine you are trying to install Ubuntu on please.

And to repeat for good measure, an OS cannot prevent you from accessing your bios.

Have you tried installing Ubuntu on anything else to see if the problem is present on another machine (hell, even try in a VM), have you tried another distro? Have you tried doing anything but call Ubuntu a POS?

nekrosoft13 said:

reason why I installed Ubuntu is a single program, that program requires nvidia drivers with CUDA support to operate, generic driver will not do.

Click to expand...

Sure. So install the nvidia driver via additional drivers. I am not using Ubuntu but I would imagine if you pop up the ubuntu package manager and search cuda the relevant cuda package is there. Click it and hit install. Should be all you have to do.

If you are having issues with your bios I would read Bullets response and check if secure boot is causing you issues.

ChadD said:

If you are having issues with your bios I would read Bullets response and check if secure boot is causing you issues.

Click to expand...

As far as I can tell between incoherent rantings on how Ubuntu is a POS, he has disabled secure boot, and yet it hangs at post (I think)?

Does it make it to Grub? No idea. Do we have some pics to go off? Nada. Has the OP actually tried any 'involved' troubleshooting/diagnosis? As far as I can tell the answer to that is 'no'. Is the device a laptop using some form of hybrid graphics and it's booting off the wrong GPU? No idea.

However we do know that the OP thinks Ubuntu is a POS, his made that point ubundantly clear.

after installing ubuntu and installing nvidia drivers i got this message.

https://preview.************/fEGqK5/IMG_20170816_195814.jpg

that when I found on ubuntu forum to hold shift key to to enter recovery terminal, tried, left, tried right shift, tried holding it, tried pressing it, tried both, nothing worked.

tried before PC booted, tried during the message.

the only thing that worked is alt+ctrl+del that caused a reboot, nothing else worked, no DEL, no ESC, nada.

its GA-H270N-Wifi board.

nekrosoft13 said:

after installing ubuntu and installing nvidia drivers i got this message.

https://preview.************/fEGqK5/IMG_20170816_195814.jpg

Click to expand...

Ok, now run us through the process of how you updated the drivers and tell us what device this is. Is it a desktop? Is it a laptop? Does it have two seperate GPU's made by different manufacturers?

Information is good, what that prompt is telling you is that there is nothing wrong with your drive, it's clean and all files are intact. It essentially means you've got past the Grub bootloader.



My system does the same thing and it's perfectly normal.

BulletDust said:

Ok, now run us through the process of how you updated the drivers and tell us what device this is. Is it a desktop? Is it a laptop? Does it have two seperate GPU's made by different manufacturers?

Information is good, what that prompt is telling you is that there is nothing wrong with your drive, it's clean and all files are intact.

Click to expand...

I gathered that much from google already, it just nothing happens after that prompt.

anyway since it has gigabyte GA-H270N-Wifi motherboard, its a desktop with geforce GT 630.

that picture is from last week, the drive has been wiped already, since nuking Ubuntu of the drive was the only way to get into UEFI again, and it secure boot and fast boot are all disabled.

Furthermore, accessing the bios is 'well' before this screen. You need to be smashing that bios key as soon as the PC starts to POST.

nekrosoft13 said:

since nuking Ubuntu of the drive was the only way to get into UEFI again, and it secure boot and fast boot are all disabled.

Click to expand...

See above. Once you reach that point you're well past the point of accessing the UEFI - Well past the point.

How did you install the Nvidia drivers?

What are your USB settings in the BIOS? Auto? Legacy? etc...

Maybe there is some kind of conflict between the mode and the USB drive and USB keyboard and/or a flaky driver in the Ubuntu install. Just a shot in the dark.

I understand the UEFI issue now. You believe the image below is the only way to access the UEFI:



It is not - That is what Microsoft wants you to believe.

Furthermore, did you remember chances are your CPU has an Intel iGPU? Did you try connecting a monitor to that output to see what's happening?

So many points of diagnosis that you've made no attempt whatsoever at even testing before coming to the conclusion that Ubuntu is a POS!

BulletDust said:

I understand the UEFI issue now. You believe the image below is the only way to access the UEFI:

It is not - That is what Microsoft wants you to believe.

Click to expand...

not sure why you posted that, i know well how UEFI works, point is that at Gigabyte POST (not my image), nothing worked... and EUFI was set to boot from main hardware first...

so it would not even let me change the boot order.

BulletDust said:

Furthermore, accessing the bios is 'well' before this screen. You need to be smashing that bios key as soon as the PC starts to POST.

Click to expand...

I know how BIOS/EUFI works, in this case it did matter how fast you were "smashing" the DEL key, it just didn't work, after the UBUNTU drive was disconnected, it magically worked.

nekrosoft13 said:

I know how BIOS/EUFI works, in this case it did matter how fast you were "smashing" the DEL key, it just didn't work, after the UBUNTU drive was disconnected, it magically worked.

Click to expand...

Well your keyboard is plugged into the wrong USB ports.

Explain to me how an OS that hasn't even loaded yet can affect your UEFI/bios access?

Furthermore, explain to me why you were still trying to access the UEFI after you could plainly see that you were past the bootloader?

Pull the drive out when Ubuntu is installed, pull the whole drive out and tell me if you can access the UEFI/BIOS.

[Edit]: 'loaded' wasn't a good choice of wording, I don't want you to remove a 'hot' drive, just one with the OS in question installed and a boot attempted. Then power down, unplug the boot drive and and try to boot in order to see if your can access the UEFI before it attempts to detect a bootloader.

You need to think a little. Your claims are outrageous.

BulletDust said:

Furthermore, accessing the bios is 'well' before this screen. You need to be smashing that bios key as soon as the PC starts to POST.

Click to expand...

I'm guessing "fast boot" or something like that (forget the exact term) is enabled in the bios.

When it is, the only way to get into BIOS is to do it via the OS, and force a full reboot.

I find that of you unplug the machine and wait for the caps to discharge (sing Mary had a Little Lamborghini 3 times or wait 30 seconds) and it will allow you into the BIOS, disregarding fast boot.

Zarathustra[H] said:

I'm guessing "fast boot" or something like that (forget the exact term) is enabled in the bios.

When it is, the only way to get into BIOS is to do it via the OS, and force a full reboot.

I find that of you unplug the machine and wait for the caps to discharge (sing Mary had a Little Lamborghini 3 times or wait 30 seconds) and it will allow you into the BIOS, disregarding fast boot.

Click to expand...

Lol. Lamb, not Lamborghini.

Zarathustra[H] said:

I'm guessing "fast boot" or something like that (forget the exact term) is enabled in the bios.

Click to expand...

Normally fast boot is enabled in Windows power settings?

Is UEFI/bios set to boot from a drive or a bootloader? I still don't know the method used to install Nvidia drivers?

nekrosoft13 said:

Installed Ubuntu, and tried to install nvidia drivers from nvidia.com, so finally after struggling with terminal I got them installed.

Click to expand...

Yeah, ok.

There's the issue right there.

We know the machine is booting past the bootloader, the user is screwing the driver installation by using the outdated .sh method outlined on the Nvidia website and most likely not blacklisting the Nouveau drivers (I think ChadD was on the nail here).

You are using an Ubuntu distro, the most reliable and easiest way to install Nvidia drivers is to either use the GUI via Control Centre > Additional Drivers (in the case of Ubuntu MATE, vanilla Ubuntu will be similar). Or by using the Ubuntu Nvidia driver PPA:

[Ctrl] + [ALT] + [T]

sudo add-apt-repository ppa:graphics-drivers/ppa

sudo apt update

sudo apt install nvidia-384 (or whatever the Nvidia site recommends for your card: nvidia-xxx).

sudo apt install nvidia-settings

sudo reboot

After this your PC should boot using the Nvidia drivers just fine and as per the example below, every time there is an Nvidia driver update the driver will be updated along with system updates - If you choose to do so.



Ubuntu is not doing a damn thing to your UEFI, you are stuffing the driver install. Having said that, it's not hard to do so using Nvidia's pathetic instructions.

Indeed the driver is the only issue here.

The screen you where seeing with the;
/dev/sda1 clean
Is simply reporting that the initial boot image worked fine (so no grub issue, unlikely a bios issue either) This is simply reporting that the drive its located on /sda1 is clean... no messed up inodes nothing wrong with the journal ect. If there was the boot img would correct the issues and continue to boot.

From this point the boot img is loading your normal kernel systemd deamons ect and also the wayland or X graphic servers.

The issue you had is related to multiple gpu modules trying to control your cards most likely....the terrible information on the Nvidia website is 100% at fault. As Linus himself would say fuck you NV. NV really really really has to make it clearer that you should check out your distributions documentation first... and understand that their .sh installer IS NOT intended to be a end user solution in most cases.

If your machine has 2 video cards. Mostly laptops with intel/nv cards. You need NV optimus drivers (I think its called) the method bullet suggested to install should handle this for all flavors of buntu. Every major distro I know of handles intel/nv machines pretty well... although many use older drivers then some like.

If your machine is 100% NV... all you really need to do is install the driver the proper way. Rebooting with out X server or turning it off to install with the Nvidia shell script will cause you a ton of issues unless you properly blacklist the kernel driver. One GPU can't have 2 drivers... that is basically what is happening from what I have seen. Your machine is starting fine Linux is loading the kernel fine... it simply contains 2 modules that are both trying to control your GPU and hanging the boot.

At least if you take a another stab at a *buntu install you have a good idea what the issue was. The fault wasn't *buntu really it was simply a bad kernel model (driver if you prefer) setup.

This is the first paragraph of the Nvidia linux drivers "additional comments" section;
"Note that many Linux distributions provide their own packages of the NVIDIA Linux Graphics Driver in the distribution's native package management format. This may interact better with the rest of your distribution's framework, and you may want to use this rather than NVIDIA's official package."

It would be really really cool if NV would instead post that line above the download button.

They also post this;
"Note that the list of supported GPU products is provided to indicate which GPUs are supported by a particular driver version. Some designs incorporating supported GPUs may not be compatible with the NVIDIA Linux driver: in particular, notebook and all-in-one desktop designs with switchable (hybrid) or Optimus graphics will not work if means to disable the integrated graphics in hardware are not available. Hardware designs will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, so please consult with a system's manufacturer to determine whether that particular system is compatible."

This is completely true of the .sh driver you download from NV. However as I stated almost every major Linux distro supports optimus including buntu if you use their supported packages.

I remember having weird USB KB+M issues during various OS installs on a fairly new system, had to enable CSM (compatibility something module?) in BIOS.
Disabled secure boot and fast boot. All was well. Just a hint.
Oh and set the boot order to legacy HDD and not UEFI. I know, workaround.