The next NCASE project: a Steam Machine-style case (indeterminate)

Don't be wooed by his better screenshots :p

Neapolitan6th said:
Looks good....

I also like the move to smaller graphics cards. 1080ti in a small case? Yes, please. Graphics cards this generation seem to be on about the same level despite size and cooling ability...

I hate to say it, but market that red color you rendered, add support for rgb somehow, and I can't see people not going crazy over it.
Click to expand...

QuantumBraced said:
Very bold direction, I like it. In my view:
...
- I really dig the GPU window, great idea. Maybe even extend down to see the backside of the motherboard...
- The case is more space optimized and supports a 1080 Ti, which is amazing.
- The case is more HDPlex friendly as it will stay in place without any mounting holes or tape just from cable pressure, like in the S4 Mini.
Click to expand...

VESA mounting (quick release possible) makes the older PCX design completely hidden with minimum loss of desk space. It doesn't get more space efficient than that.

The latest PCX I have 90% done is 335x268x75mm, 6.73L (335x278x78 including protrusion and feet).
- Supports 1070 Mini GPU + Flex or HD-Plex 300W ACDC
- Supports Zotac 1080TI with HD-Plex 300W ACDC (DC-ATX in the works)
- VESA mounting for AIO like setup (potentially the smallest foot print if setup right)
- It *CAN* have a square window (rectangular window possible if you remove ODD)

~ 6.8L vs 7.7L.

This is the SFF forum, a bigger case just feels sacrilegious.
 
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wahaha360 said:
Don't be wooed by his better screenshots :p





VESA mounting (quick release possible) makes the older PCX design completely hidden with minimum loss of desk space. It doesn't get more space efficient than that.

The latest PCX I have 90% done is 335x268x75mm, 6.73L (335x278x78 including protrusion and feet).
- Supports 1070 Mini GPU + Flex or HD-Plex 300W ACDC
- Supports Zotac 1080TI with HD-Plex 300W ACDC (DC-ATX in the works)
- VESA mounting for AIO like setup (potentially the smallest foot print if setup right)
- It *CAN* have a square window (rectangular window possible if you remove ODD)

~ 6.8L vs 7.7L.

This is the SFF forum, a bigger case just feels sacrilegious.
Click to expand...
The problem I have with that stuff is that the layout is not well suited to those features, and this forces the implementation to be suboptimal. Like, okay, technically it can do A, B, and C, but those come with a bunch of caveats. Take the window, for example. This is what your window looks like on the latest model vs. on my newer design:

JpYBldV.png


It looks bad in comparison, and like an afterthought. It's smaller and off-center, and only shows part of the GPU when you have something like the Zotac 1080 in there. I know you say it "can" have a rectangular window, but then only if not just the ODD is left out, but also the VESA mounting. Also as is even with the small window, the ODD when installed extends into the window and covers part of the GPU. It's just a bad solution, and doesn't belong on the design.

Moreover, you claim things like 1080Ti support, but only with the 300W/400W HDPlex (which btw needs to be mounted against the front panel to allow for the longer Zotac cards, preventing the ODD from being used). The problem, as you well know, is that with the 1080/Ti dumping all that heat right next to the passively cooled HDPlex, it's not going to be able to operate at its full capacity, which especially the 1080 Ti is going to be bumping up against to begin with.

I just see all these features you're trying to shoehorn in as ill-suited to the design. You're going to end up with six different and incompatible versions of the case. It's not designed for it, the features don't belong and don't integrate well.

Also I don't think anyone actually cares very much about VESA mounting besides you.
 
dondan said:
I like it but i would reduce the width to 82.8mm. Also the stand needs a more elegant design or just go without it :)
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Lol... that's a very specific dimension. I get the feeling you've played around with something like this before. But as you know, flex ATX is 81.5mm, so that would only be possible using 0.6mm thick steel right up against it, and only a single layer either side. So it would have to be directly against the outer panels, essentially, which I don't think is something I can do here (need flanges for rigidity + mounting). Also I still prefer to use aluminum sheet for the exterior, which is going to be thicker (~2mm).

And yeah, the stand was just something I slapped together quickly before posting the images. It was literally the first thing I started tinkering with the minute after I posted.
 
QuantumBraced said:
Very bold direction, I like it. In my view:

Cons:

- 0.6L larger.
- Airflow to the PSU is not optimized and PSU exhaust will feed into GPU space.
- Descreased airflow with single 140x25 fan vs 2x 120x15 fans - if we go by Noctua fans, their A14 pushes 140 m^3/h whereas their new A12x15 pushes 92 m^3/h, so x2 = 184 at similar noise levels. But not a huge difference.

Pros:

- More static pressure on top of the CPU heatsink (again, looking at the Noctua fans its 1.53 vs 2.08 mm H2O). Makes X(2)99 builds with the T318/R15 heatsink seem not totally crazy.
- More headroom for taller CPU coolers. However if a weaker fan is used it won't provide enough airflow for all the components inside, so the 140x25 has to be strongly recommended (is there a bracket?). But then you can end up with a small heatsink and a massive 140x25 fan on top of it, would that really be efficient/make sense? In the previous version, 15mm fans were more appropriate for small heatsinks or you could keep your original cooler fan and still have a second 120x15 fan for additional airflow. What's the best CPU cooler right now that has a 40mm heatsink?
- I really dig the GPU window, great idea. Maybe even extend down to see the backside of the motherboard, if that's something that people would wanna show off. I would, but I'm not sure most would :p
- The case is wider, so more tower-like. I'm not a fan of superslim skyscraper cases, they make me nervous, but that's just me so this is subjective.
- The case is more space optimized and supports a 1080 Ti, which is amazing.
- The case is more HDPlex friendly as it will stay in place without any mounting holes or tape just from cable pressure, like in the S4 Mini.

Note: Do we really need the 80mm exhaust fans? I guess we may as well have mounts if there's no space for anything else.

Crazy idea: Make the case 5mm deeper and a 1-2 mm wider and fit a 200mm intake fan. But then you're pushing 8.1-8.2L and you still have the issue of giant intake fan on a tiny heatsink.
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Good analysis. To your questions:
  • Yes, there would need to be a bracket for the 140mm intake fan.
  • The size mismatch between the intake fan and the CPU cooler is a concern I have as well. Something like the Scythe Kozuti, which is exactly 40mm tall, might be ideal here. It has its own underslung slim 80mm fan, so it could work in conjunction with the intake fan as a push-pull setup.
  • 80mm exhaust fans are probably not necessary, per se, but situated right over the GPU it'll help keep it cool. I will say that with the Zotac cards since the PCB is a good 14mm taller than reference, there's only room for 15mm thick fans, unfortunately.
 
I did some playing around with the latest concept, adding some M1-style angles to the side panels:

6fjbtw6.png


It's a fairly subtle change, but overall I think it's an improvement. I've already got the "boring box" criticism from w360 for the original :p
 
Necere said:
Lol... that's a very specific dimension. I get the feeling you've played around with something like this before. But as you know, flex ATX is 81.5mm, so that would only be possible using 0.6mm thick steel right up against it, and only a single layer either side. So it would have to be directly against the outer panels, essentially, which I don't think is something I can do here (need flanges for rigidity + mounting). Also I still prefer to use aluminum sheet for the exterior, which is going to be thicker (~2mm).
Click to expand...

No i didn't played around with that because I thought flex ATX is 80mm :D
 
Necere said:
I did some playing around with the latest concept, adding some M1-style angles to the side panels:

6fjbtw6.png


It's a fairly subtle change, but overall I think it's an improvement. I've already got the "boring box" criticism from w360 for the original :p
Click to expand...
The downside to angles like that is a slightly "chubbier" look.

Most of my impressions have been covered by others, but to add:
- the bend radius needed on the C14 cable out of the PSU looks tight but it might be fine because of the width of the case
- the front I/O placement at the top means it's impractical to plug in a portable hdd, so I'd have to use the motherboard ports around back (Edit: same with the 3.5mm jack, now that I think about the wire hanging down)
- the stacked fan setup as rendered makes me concerned about fan turbulence like with GPUs in the M1
 
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Do we really need a window over the GPU? I would much rather opt for a vent over it instead. in my opinion this is a drop in aesthetics over previous mockups.
 
Necere I noticed there is a USB panel on the front. In your design process have you ever come across a thin or slim USB front panel cable? Everything I have come across, the cables are super bulky, fat, too long, and blue. I have yet to see a "thin" version of this .
 
Necere said:
Good analysis. To your questions:
  • Yes, there would need to be a bracket for the 140mm intake fan.
  • The size mismatch between the intake fan and the CPU cooler is a concern I have as well. Something like the Scythe Kozuti, which is exactly 40mm tall, might be ideal here. It has its own underslung slim 80mm fan, so it could work in conjunction with the intake fan as a push-pull setup.
  • 80mm exhaust fans are probably not necessary, per se, but situated right over the GPU it'll help keep it cool. I will say that with the Zotac cards since the PCB is a good 14mm taller than reference, there's only room for 15mm thick fans, unfortunately.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. I did some more thinking (I have way too much free time this summer) and have some more points for your consideration, hopefully you don't mind my spamming you with my brain farts.

On dimensions:

- It seems that if you ditch the 80mm fans, you can shorten the length to 330mm? Or perhaps even without ditching the fans. You have a gap between the motherboard and bottom and a smaller gap between the GPU and top that don't seem to serve any purpose?

- Is the front I/O above the graphics card? If so, couldn't you shave another 10mm from the width? The Zotac 1080 Ti is only 211mm and you have a sizable gap between the board and the PSU. I know it's good to have some room for airflow, but it seems a little excessive?

- As far as depth, you have 40mm of heatsink + 25mm of fan, is the remaining 29mm really all bottom panel + standoffs + motherboard + CPU? How much distance is there between the fan and the panel?

On coolers/fans:

The Scythe Kozuti is the only one I found as well that was exactly 40mm. There are good 50mm heatsinks, like the Noctua L9x65 and the Shadow Rock LP, but not too much in the 40mm range. And both of those can legitimately handle a decent overclock on a 95W chip and even a moderate overclock on a 140W chip. I know the Shadow Rock LP can handle a 140W chip OCed to 1.25 VCore or so.

I guess one could use a 140x15 fan with one of those 50mm heatsinks. The best ones seem to be:

- Prolimatech Ultra Sleek Vortex (1000 RPM, 98 CFM, 0.90mm H2O, 18.0 dBA)
- Cryorig XT140 (1300 RPM, 65 CFM, 1.49mm H2O, 24 dBA)
- Silverstone FW141 (1300 RPM, 74 CFM, 1.24mm H2O, 34.2 dBA)

In comparison:

- 140x25 Noctua NF-A14 (1500 RPM, 82 CFM, 2.08mm H2O, 24.6 dBA)
- 120x25 Pure Wings packaged with the Shadow Rock LP (1500 RPM, 49 CFM, 1.25mm H2O, 25.5 dBA)

The best option may be the Prolimatech as it is very quiet and has 20% more airflow than the NF-A14, albeit only half the static pressure. However, I think that this case design may actually benefit from more airflow vs. static pressure, because the air is channeled, so the case has "natural" static pressure and if you get more air in there it WILL move.

The Cryorig XT140 is actually strictly better than the Shadow Rock LP's stock fan at the same noise level -- if stats are to be trusted. The Silverstone has even more airflow, but is louder at load. It goes to show that these slim fans would be pretty adequate for one of those 50mm heatsinks. Not for everyone and I'm not suggesting it be recommended as default, but definitely a decent option if one wants to fit a beefier heatsink.

Other thoughts:

- I hope you're considering a Flex ATX with a 20mm fan rather than a 15mm or a 10mm. They're quieter, plus you can swap it with a Noctua.

- If Type-C front ports are available at time of launch, that would bring even more attention to the case.

- Why not go separate headphone and mic jacks? There's plenty of room.

- I like the angles, but wouldn't it make more sense to give them to the front panel than the side panels, so it looks like the M1? Or not doable? I also suggest a similarly angled base rather than circular.

- Will the base be removable? I still think there should be an option to lay the case on its side even if not recommended.

- Will the entire front and top panel be one removable piece?

- I know you don't like proprietary standards, but would you consider including 4 mounting holes for the HDPlex internal brick on the power supply bracket? The DC-DC board can be put anywhere and doesn't need to be hard mounted, but the brick should be mounted. That gives people the option to have a totally silent 300W internal PSU, and the holes can be removed from future iterations if a strictly better option becomes available.

- FYI, the new ASRock X299 board has a 42mm tall riser, so not possible to use a 140x25mm fan with that board, I'm not even sure a 120mm would fit with an adapter bracket, may have to be offset and mounted on the heatsink, or a 15mm fan be used. Not suggesting any changes be made, but letting you know compatibility.

Fanboyism:

I really dig the new design. I mean Necere's, W360's is good, but not as good, sorry just being honest haha, also why are you two working on 2 separate designs? I am excited for the case because it seems to be a truly innovative product in the size class of Sentry and Dan A4-SFX and allows for the same hardware, BUT it addresses the issues of dust and airflow and can potentially fit better coolers. And because it's not meshed everywhere you can have awesome windows. Respect.
 
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ceski said:
The downside to angles like that is a slightly "chubbier" look.
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When we made the first LRPC, I thought 84mm wide made the case feel too thick, now he wants to make it even wider at 90mm+. That's the #1 thing I really don't like this new design.

fminus said:
Necere I noticed there is a USB panel on the front. In your design process have you ever come across a thin or slim USB front panel cable? Everything I have come across, the cables are super bulky, fat, too long, and blue. I have yet to see a "thin" version of this .
Click to expand...

I might upgrade M1 USB and Audio cables to these flat cables - they are pretty nice. So the PCX will have them too.

I have some control over the material used, so I should be able to make them more flexible.

KwashUTl.png
 
wahaha360 said:
When we made the first LRPC, I thought 84mm wide made the case feel too thick, now he wants to make it even wider at 90mm+. That's the #1 thing I really don't like this new design.
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It's more that convex profile lines are never flattering. Think about the original Xbox (NASA crawler) and PS3 (George Foreman grill), versus the edge cutout on the Xbox One or the staggered design of the Xbox One S -- there's effective ways to hide bulkiness.
 
Definitely more interested in wahaha360's design, including VESA mount. Trying to fit a 32" monitor and a pair of JBL lsr305s on a 44" desk; being able to stick the case behind the monitor like that would definitely be appealing.
 
Necere said:
Essentially, it's a small footprint case designed around showing off a card like the Zotac GTX 1080 Ti. Unlike the original PCX design, this is less of a console-style case, as it's meant only for vertical orientation and lacks ODD support.

My feeling is quite a few people would be more interested in something like this vs. the original design, but I'm curious to hear people's thoughts on it.
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NOPE! I wasn't totally in love with the old design but I certainly prefer it to this new vertical prototype. I'm primarily looking for something for the living room a vertical case doesn't work and is a deal breaker.

The new design reminds me of a dell optiplex. I feel like ive seen this design many times before.(n)

My friend has the M1 case its beautiful and elegant what benefits does this case in a vertical orientation offer over the M1?
 
ceski said:
The downside to angles like that is a slightly "chubbier" look.

Most of my impressions have been covered by others, but to add:
- the bend radius needed on the C14 cable out of the PSU looks tight but it might be fine because of the width of the case
- the front I/O placement at the top means it's impractical to plug in a portable hdd, so I'd have to use the motherboard ports around back (Edit: same with the 3.5mm jack, now that I think about the wire hanging down)
- the stacked fan setup as rendered makes me concerned about fan turbulence like with GPUs in the M1
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  • The C13 is a right angle type that exits pointing towards the rear of the case, so there's no concern about bend radius.
  • I'm looking at moving the front I/O to the bottom of the front panel.
  • Yeah, stacked fans is generally a poor idea. Ideally, you'd want to have only the intake fan blowing on the heatsink, with no fan on the heatsink itself, or an underslung fan like on the Kozuti or dondan's in development cooler.
ceski said:
It's more that convex profile lines are never flattering. Think about the original Xbox (NASA crawler) and PS3 (George Foreman grill), versus the edge cutout on the Xbox One or the staggered design of the Xbox One S -- there's effective ways to hide bulkiness.
Click to expand...
I agree that a curved convex profile doesn't tend to look good, but I think under certain circumstances an angular profile works well.
 
fminus said:
Do we really need a window over the GPU? I would much rather opt for a vent over it instead. in my opinion this is a drop in aesthetics over previous mockups.
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Well, we'd offer a solid panel option. A ventilated panel option is less likely though, because 1) the case airflow is designed to work without it, 2) it would require some extra work to filter, 3) and it would be another SKU to handle.
 
QuantumBraced said:
On dimensions:

- It seems that if you ditch the 80mm fans, you can shorten the length to 330mm? Or perhaps even without ditching the fans. You have a gap between the motherboard and bottom and a smaller gap between the GPU and top that don't seem to serve any purpose?
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Those gaps are there for mechanical/production details. Stuff like minimum distance of a cutout to a bend and screws/fasteners. Height is about the minimum I'm comfortable with to support the hardware I want it to.

QuantumBraced said:
- Is the front I/O above the graphics card? If so, couldn't you shave another 10mm from the width? The Zotac 1080 Ti is only 211mm and you have a sizable gap between the board and the PSU. I know it's good to have some room for airflow, but it seems a little excessive?
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Your directions are confusing me :p Looking from the front, with the case standing vertically, the front I/O is just to the right of the GPU. If you're asking if I could decrease the depth any, the answer is possibly, but I wouldn't because there's such limited space to run cables as is. Also it becomes difficult/impossible at a certain point to install a GPU if you don't have some extra room to maneuver it in.

QuantumBraced said:
- As far as depth, you have 40mm of heatsink + 25mm of fan, is the remaining 29mm really all bottom panel + standoffs + motherboard + CPU? How much distance is there between the fan and the panel?
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10mm for motherboard standoffs, 1.6mm for mobo PCB, 8mm for CPU socket. That's almost 20mm right there. I have 2+2mm for the side panels. 5mm is allocated to the fan bracket/screw heads/dust filter. There's your 29mm.

It's the same with the M1: width is 160mm, max cooler height is 130mm.

QuantumBraced said:
On coolers/fans:

The Scythe Kozuti is the only one I found as well that was exactly 40mm. There are good 50mm heatsinks, like the Noctua L9x65 and the Shadow Rock LP, but not too much in the 40mm range. And both of those can legitimately handle a decent overclock on a 95W chip and even a moderate overclock on a 140W chip. I know the Shadow Rock LP can handle a 140W chip OCed to 1.25 VCore or so.

I guess one could use a 140x15 fan with one of those 50mm heatsinks. The best ones seem to be:

- Prolimatech Ultra Sleek Vortex (1000 RPM, 98 CFM, 0.90mm H2O, 18.0 dBA)
- Cryorig XT140 (1300 RPM, 65 CFM, 1.49mm H2O, 24 dBA)
- Silverstone FW141 (1300 RPM, 74 CFM, 1.24mm H2O, 34.2 dBA)

In comparison:

- 140x25 Noctua NF-A14 (1500 RPM, 82 CFM, 2.08mm H2O, 24.6 dBA)
- 120x25 Pure Wings packaged with the Shadow Rock LP (1500 RPM, 49 CFM, 1.25mm H2O, 25.5 dBA)

The best option may be the Prolimatech as it is very quiet and has 20% more airflow than the NF-A14, albeit only half the static pressure. However, I think that this case design may actually benefit from more airflow vs. static pressure, because the air is channeled, so the case has "natural" static pressure and if you get more air in there it WILL move.

The Cryorig XT140 is actually strictly better than the Shadow Rock LP's stock fan at the same noise level -- if stats are to be trusted. The Silverstone has even more airflow, but is louder at load. It goes to show that these slim fans would be pretty adequate for one of those 50mm heatsinks. Not for everyone and I'm not suggesting it be recommended as default, but definitely a decent option if one wants to fit a beefier heatsink.
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I've been thinking about this too. A 140x15mm fan would allow for quite a few more cooler options, including many of the 58-60mm tall coolers, whose heatsinks are in the 45mm range. A really good option might be dondan's cooler, which at 48mm is ideal to be run with a 15mm thick fan on top. With its own underslung fan you'd have a nice compact push-pull setup and probably some of the best CPU cooling available in this size class.

QuantumBraced said:
Other thoughts:

- I hope you're considering a Flex ATX with a 20mm fan rather than a 15mm or a 10mm. They're quieter, plus you can swap it with a Noctua.
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We had a conversation with FSP a while back and I did suggest at some point to consider incorporating 20mm thick fans into their upcoming flex ATX designs (the 400W I tested uses a 15mm), if at all possible. I don't know if they'll do it, but hey, at least I brought it to their attention hopefully.

Seasonic, at least, seems to use thicker fans on their flex units.

QuantumBraced said:
- If Type-C front ports are available at time of launch, that would bring even more attention to the case.
Click to expand...
It's definitely something I'm keeping in mind. The front I/O in the concept model is really just a placeholder for now.

QuantumBraced said:
- Why not go separate headphone and mic jacks? There's plenty of room.
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Might have to. I looked into TRRS a bit more and I don't think it will work. At least, there are a lot more pins on the front panel audio header than there are conductors on a TRRS jack.

QuantumBraced said:
- I like the angles, but wouldn't it make more sense to give them to the front panel than the side panels, so it looks like the M1? Or not doable? I also suggest a similarly angled base rather than circular.
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Not like the M1, no, because there's limited space on the front and you can't really put the front I/O on the angled sections. So the long leg of the angle has to go on the sides.

Point taken on the base. I took a similar path with the original LRPC's base - I'll probably do a few more iterations before settling on something.

QuantumBraced said:
- Will the base be removable? I still think there should be an option to lay the case on its side even if not recommended.
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Base would be removable, yes. Still very much early in development on this, so nothing is final.

QuantumBraced said:
- I know you don't like proprietary standards, but would you consider including 4 mounting holes for the HDPlex internal brick on the power supply bracket? The DC-DC board can be put anywhere and doesn't need to be hard mounted, but the brick should be mounted. That gives people the option to have a totally silent 300W internal PSU, and the holes can be removed from future iterations if a strictly better option becomes available.
Click to expand...
I think my preferred way of doing it would be to have a removable plate that the AC-DC would mount to, if I were to support it. That way if the mounting holes change only the small plate needs to be updated to ensure ongoing compatibility.

QuantumBraced said:
- FYI, the new ASRock X299 board has a 42mm tall riser, so not possible to use a 140x25mm fan with that board, I'm not even sure a 120mm would fit with an adapter bracket, may have to be offset and mounted on the heatsink, or a 15mm fan be used. Not suggesting any changes be made, but letting you know compatibility.
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Hm... that's 42mm from the motherboard PCB though, correct? I figure CPU cooler height exclusive of the CPU socket height (8mm). So in reality there is 48mm from the PCB to the fan.

QuantumBraced said:
Fanboyism:

I really dig the new design. I mean Necere's, W360's is good, but not as good, sorry just being honest haha, also why are you two working on 2 separate designs? I am excited for the case because it seems to be a truly innovative product in the size class of Sentry and Dan A4-SFX and allows for the same hardware, BUT it addresses the issues of dust and airflow and can potentially fit better coolers. And because it's not meshed everywhere you can have awesome windows. Respect.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I'm not close to done with the design though, and I've reworked it in a way that I'm actually kind of excited about. Not quite ready to show it yet, but I think (or hope, anyway) that you'll like the direction I'm taking it in.

Regarding why we're working on different designs, it goes something like this:

  1. Some months back, I do a new concept, show it to w360, explain the console cues it has and so forth. That was this concept:



    I never showed this one publicly, and eventually I decided there were things about it I didn't like. Specifically, how the divided design didn't really reflect anything going on inside, which is at odds with my aspirations to honest design/design with integrity. W360, on the other hand, decides he likes it. We talk about it, I tell him I don't want to proceed with this version.

  2. I revise the design more to my liking, and post it the forum. That's these ones:

    KQcxxPal.jpg


  3. Working on the internals, I feel frustrated and start losing motivation. W360 decides to take over designing internals, but on the previous (first) version, which he prefers. That's what he's been posting pics of, and externally it still more or less looks like the first render above. I allow him to do it on the condition that it's only for prototype testing and his own personal use, and it's not the version that will go to production, which he agrees to. He was feeling a bit stir crazy, and kept insisting he needed something to do to feel like he was making progress, so that factored into it as well.

    Nevertheless, several of his changes/additions to my original design have really rubbed me the wrong way, which you can read about in previous posts.

  4. I come up with an entirely new concept, which is what I've shown in the last few days. Right now I'm more excited about this than I ever really was about any version of the PCX, and I honestly hope I can take it somewhere. I think it has the potential to be something pretty special.
 
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masteralef said:
Definitely more interested in wahaha360's design, including VESA mount. Trying to fit a 32" monitor and a pair of JBL lsr305s on a 44" desk; being able to stick the case behind the monitor like that would definitely be appealing.
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Unfortunately the VESA solution he's come up with has some fatal flaws, which are seemingly inherent to the design. The problem is the VESA spec calls for 7.4mm of screw to extend into the case, but one of the screws has nowhere to go but under the motherboard, where it comes within 2mm of the back of it. That's well inside the motherboard's 6.35mm keep out zone, and risks damaging or shorting components on the board. One of the other screws comes into the space occupied by the slim ODD, such that it can't be installed there if the VESA mounting is used. I can accept certain trade offs in component selection (such as the M1 has), but this makes little sense. Can't use a drive because of a screw? It's unintuitive and IMO bad design.

garou81 said:
NOPE! I wasn't totally in love with the old design but I certainly prefer it to this new vertical prototype. I'm primarily looking for something for the living room a vertical case doesn't work and is a deal breaker.

The new design reminds me of a dell optiplex. I feel like ive seen this design many times before.(n)

My friend has the M1 case its beautiful and elegant what benefits does this case in a vertical orientation offer over the M1?
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Smaller footprint and volume, and a window for showing off that sweet $500 GPU. I'm still working on the design though, so don't pass judgement yet!
 
Necere said:
Unfortunately the VESA solution he's come up with has some fatal flaws, which are seemingly inherent to the design. The problem is the VESA spec calls for 7.4mm of screw to extend into the case, but one of the screws has nowhere to go but under the motherboard, where it comes within 2mm of the back of it. That's well inside the motherboard's 6.35mm keep out zone, and risks damaging or shorting components on the board. One of the other screws comes into the space occupied by the slim ODD, such that it can't be installed there if the VESA mounting is used. I can accept certain trade offs in component selection (such as the M1 has), but this makes little sense. Can't use a drive because of a screw? It's unintuitive and IMO bad design.
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Shorter screws (M4-5mm) will resolve the issue. It's not as dire as he makes it to be.

When I have more free time, I will try and render some images to show why I think the older console design makes sense.
 
Necere, thanks for addressing my myriad of points, I appreciate your being so engaged with the community. I tried to resist follow-ups, but here are a few:

- On the X299 board, I think you're right, so a 140x25 fan should fit.

- I'm excited that you're considering a separate plate for HDPlex AC-DC b/c I imagine it will be quite popular for any build that uses up to a 95W CPU and 180W card. If they release a 400W brick, it may end up being super popular.

- Is it me or are the GPU mount and the entire back panel recessed? That is, the card's PCI bracket doesn't stick out? If that's the case, isn't that an easy save of a few mm off that dimension?

- Good point on Seasonic's 40x20 fans. They showed off a ridiculous 650W unit at Computex that was even semi-modular and still only 150mm in length. If you haven't had a chance to read:

https://smallformfactor.net/forum/threads/seasonic-s1p-651fcpn5-650w-flexatx.2471/

https://smallformfactor.net/news/flexatx-computex-2017-roundup

And it looks like SilverStone is also working on a consumer-friendly black Flex ATX, but theirs is only 350W. :(

- On exterior design, I think what gives the M1 its unique look or its "face" is the front I/O cutout (in addition to the angled front). Would it be too crazy if you implemented the same/similar angular cutout for the front I/O of this case? It wouldn't be symmetrical, but it would look bold. It would necessitate shifting the I/O down a little. I think it would either look cool/interesting, or awkward/silly, it's a fine line :D I am too lazy to sketch it, but hopefully you can imagine what I mean. Either way, I think it's important that the case have some kind of a unique design element to give it character and distinguish it from all the other boxes. One thing I really like about your original design is the exhaust vent with the long parallel beams, sexy AF.

- And I hope the window can be tempered glass and not acrylic, I mean what is this, 2015? ;)

- Don't reveal the new design before you feel confident, but I'm excited. With respect to W360's project, your current design seems like a clear evolution of the original with the single chamber/airflow, but I suppose there can be different views on this. I just wish you'd combine superpowers rather than diverge, but it's not my place to comment on your professional relationship, I just know I love my M1.
 
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QuantumBraced said:
Good point on Seasonic's 40x20 fans. They showed off a ridiculous 650W unit at Computex that was even semi-modular and still only 150mm in length.
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You didn't hear this from me ;)

- 450W 80+ Platinum (more aggressive fan profile) or 500W 80+ Gold (less aggressive fan profile).
- fully modular (modular cabling extending beyond the 150mm casing)
- semi-fanless mode pending

The fan noise on their 300W Flex is not bad, they will try and do better with this new unit.

QuantumBraced said:
And I hope the window can be tempered glass and not acrylic, I mean what is this, 2015? ;)
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Probably a special type of polycarbonate, this material became popular due to cellphone case. There is a high glass content variant that has the scratch resistance near glass, mold-ability of plastic. This allows us to create *unique windows with 3D shapes using molding techniques.

QuantumBraced said:
With respect to W360's project, your current design seems like a clear evolution of the original with the single chamber/airflow, but I suppose there can be different views on this. I just wish you'd combine superpowers rather than diverge, but it's not my place to comment on your professional relationship, I just know I love my M1.
Click to expand...

We fight all the time, it's nothing new. Some conflict is a healthy sign for product development.

Manufacturing, quality control, distributing is a lot of time - time that I can spend doing other things. So at the end of day, I need to be passionate about the product to find it in myself to go through the process.

While I have no doubt the design is "honest" to form in Necere's opinion, at 96mm wide, the proportions are "honestly" too ugly for me to spend the time to go through the process. I literally cringed when I made a paper weight to get sense of the size.
 
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To be honest (and you know I'm honest) I like both designs, with a few caveats:

a) Necere's design is a purely vertical one.

b) wahaha360 is a purely horizontal one.

I know, I know... but this looks terrific while horizontal:

kxNasK2.jpg




But if you put it vertical you are simply destroying its aesthetics. At the same time, I see it co-existing with this without a problem (without the "hinged" sides. It looks much better imo).

HSEkVC8.png



All in all, I see no reason to go "A or B". Why not both? I find them different enough to be able to co-exist.

At this stage I'd have more use for a vertical case (Necere's) but If I needed a horizontal one I'd get wahaha360. Though I'm not a fan of the window on Necere's. IMO, NCASE's aesthetics should go beyond that, specially when you are only seeing part of your GPU. So, no window for me, please. What I would think about is to add one of those new USB type connectors. No idea the exact name (it is simply very uber long) but it would future-proof the case.

PS: wahaha360, how are the new panels for the M1? You will make me buy another one just for those... but you guys could think about adding some colours. I'd murder for a white NCASE...
 
I had been lurking here for some time now, but I've two things to note:

1) The tower Necere made looks interesting, but it is quite far away from steam machine-styled case. If/when you will decide to go this way, it would be good to move this to another, separate topic.

2) XBOX ONE S inspired steam machine looks pretty sleek, but I'd be afraid to be slammed with a lawsuit from M$ if I were from US.
 
wahaha360 said:
Shorter screws (M4-5mm) will resolve the issue. It's not as dire as he makes it to be.
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But consider the following worst-case scenario:
  1. A customer buys the case and mounts it to his VESA stand. He grabs his standard 10mm screws to use for mounting (because why wouldn't he? He has no reason to believe he shouldn't).
  2. He doesn't realize one of the screws are touching his motherboard.
  3. He powers on the system, shorting his motherboard and destroying his computer.
  4. He investigates, finds a scorch mark where the screw is touching his motherboard, curses it for being such a terrible design.
Do you see the problem here?

wahaha360 said:
While I have no doubt the design is "honest" to form in Necere's opinion, at 96mm wide, the proportions are "honestly" too ugly for me to spend the time to go through the process. I literally cringed when I made a paper weight to get sense of the size.
Click to expand...
I think you just need to change the way you're thinking about it. You know how you were always asking me if there was something we could do to change the design of the M1 so it could stand up vertically with the rear I/O at the top, FT03 style? Well, look:

bolXswl.png


This design is practically the same size as the M1 standing up (shorter, once you factor in a cable cover for the M1), but it's a lot narrower. And yet it makes you "cringe" now because of how thick it is.

Change how you think about it; not so much as a slim, console-style case, but as something between that and a vertical, FT03-mini/Corsair One style case.
 
Necere said:
The C13 is a right angle type that exits pointing towards the rear of the case, so there's no concern about bend radius.
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I was thinking about the cable bend just past the right angle connector, but after playing legos I think it could work after all.

here.jpg
 
Necere said:
Rev 3:

PGoqxCG.jpg


R2Yur9a.jpg


hi5lWLz.jpg


This evolution of the design solidifies its purpose: its slab-like styling and prominent exhaust vents communicates "this is a serious machine for serious work." This is no featherweight; it is thick because it is powerful.
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- I really like the two tone look that doesn't wrap around more than one side, it reminds me of this or this
- The front I/O design seems like a compromise to work horizontally or vertically while not looking great in either orientation
- The way the side panels meet the front panel looks off, but that might be an optical illusion from the rendering
 
Wow. This new design is reaching audiophile levels of aesthetics lol. Stick a knob on the front and I'd swear its an amplifier.
 
ceski said:
- The front I/O design seems like a compromise to work horizontally or vertically while not looking great in either orientation
Click to expand...
I did try something that was more like the cutout on the M1, but it didn't look that good.

ceski said:
- The way the side panels meet the front panel looks off, but that might be an optical illusion from the rendering
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Yeah, the panel corners are radiused by 2mm, which throws off the perception of the edge profile. Here it is without:

ho3uSwP.jpg
 
Yep that's exactly it. I guess that's not realistic to manufacture though?

What if you made the side panels flat and extended the U shape of the front panel? I'm guessing you already thought of that and maybe it plays into symmetry with the rear(?) panel that seems to be peeking out.

Edit: Looks like you're going for a flush rear profile? If so, no pcie tab sticking out. That's clean.
 
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So move the break line up to where the bend is? Yeah I thought about that, but if you do that you lose the bend radius, and the line of the panels doesn't flow smoothly anymore. Breaking the panels mid-surface preserves that continuity better.
 
Necere said:
Couple renders in silver:

W1jbGxs.jpg


BdVsQ0E.jpg
Click to expand...

That is actually pretty gorgeous. I do question the I/O, though. Unless you put an HDMI port on there to support VR, it seems like the audio jacks are unnecessary and not as clean.

I would rather see centered USB ports kept in the same orientation they are right now. (Or HDMI, which would be pretty cool. Especially with new cards that are starting to offer an internal hdmi for exactly that purpose.)
 
Don't forget this only supports short cards (<215mm), which are probably a lot less likely to offer internal HDMI due to lack of board space.
 
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