So I tried Windows 10 as a user...

Tiberian said:
It's UAC and there is no actual Administrator account in Windows anymore, that was removed way back when Vista came into being and UAC was first introduced - it might be labeled "Administrator" but it has nothing in common with that level of access in previous versions of Windows prior to Vista. There are things in Windows that you simply are not allowed to do even logged in with "Administrator" privileges and that's how it should be more often than not considering. The OS will do what it has to do to protect itself from stupid users, and yes that includes people that think they're smart enough to know better than the OS or Microsoft too.

Protip: it's not your OS, as needs to be repeated from time to time. :D
Click to expand...

No! If I want to blow my box to smithereens, then the OS should allow me to do so if I so desire to do so as an Administrator. I'm being serious. I don't want the OS babying me and treating me like a kid who doesn't know better. I should be allowed to login as Administrator or a user with Administrative powers and explode my box if I so dare choose. When an OS is so faulty and broken that it has to stop the user from doing what they want to do, that's when you know it's time to throw it in the garbage.
 
BulletDust said:
I fixed your post for you, Microsoft are not the saviours of personal computing nor do they care for you as a consumer, they only care about the colour of what's in your back pocket. Although you are right, as it stands now Windows is the most versatile OS out there for the consumer and with that comes security issues in an attempt to make an OS compatible with the unknowledgeable masses, so in itself this is not necessarily a good thing.
Click to expand...

First off, which competitors are you imagining they killed off with this practice? You mention Microsoft kills off all these other competitors but have yet to provide any examples of what competitors, just comments to typical business practices done by most companies.
 
B00nie said:
If you don't realize that most things Windows includes today were made by someone else in an alternative OS before that, you need to study some computing history. Windows has always been behind in development.
Click to expand...

You mean like many things in large companies are made by someone else? And no, you are not correct, most things done by Microsoft are done by Microsoft. However, like most other large companies they do buy up small promising companies and utilize their expertise. But please, start showing actually proof of what you say, because for the life of me, I can't find any.
 
NoOther said:
You mean like many things in large companies are made by someone else? And no, you are not correct, most things done by Microsoft are done by Microsoft. However, like most other large companies they do buy up small promising companies and utilize their expertise. But please, start showing actually proof of what you say, because for the life of me, I can't find any.
Click to expand...

Please go and study. I'm not going to spend time educating your ass. Just as a couple of examples Amiga had a graphical desktop and true multithread operation when most PC:s were still running DOS.
 
NoOther said:
First off, which competitors are you imagining they killed off with this practice? You mention Microsoft kills off all these other competitors but have yet to provide any examples of what competitors, just comments to typical business practices done by most companies.
Click to expand...

Your joking right ? He posted a list in this VERY thread. :)

Here this was my break down for those that didn't read it also in this thread.
https://hardforum.com/threads/so-i-tried-windows-10-as-a-user.1935155/#post-1043022508
 
Qchan said:
No! If I want to blow my box to smithereens, then the OS should allow me to do so if I so desire to do so as an Administrator. I'm being serious. I don't want the OS babying me and treating me like a kid who doesn't know better. I should be allowed to login as Administrator or a user with Administrative powers and explode my box if I so dare choose. When an OS is so faulty and broken that it has to stop the user from doing what they want to do, that's when you know it's time to throw it in the garbage.
Click to expand...

Ok, so throw it in the garbage and move the fuck on, it's not your OS, it never will be your OS, there's no proper real actual Administrator account in Windows anymore and there never will be again because <tada!> it's not your/our/my OS, that's just how it goes now and has gone for a decade so far but people still don't seem to grasp it.

Nobody is being forced to use Windows, nobody, anywhere, except maybe people working at Microsoft itself but they're getting paid to use it so that's that.

I mean really, folks, having a discussion is all fine and dandy but just making thread after thread and post after post after all these years lambasting Microsoft over Windows, sweet jeebus people, get the fuck over it. :D
 
NoOther said:
First off, which competitors are you imagining they killed off with this practice? You mention Microsoft kills off all these other competitors but have yet to provide any examples of what competitors, just comments to typical business practices done by most companies.
Click to expand...

There is well documented examples in a PDF I linked in this very thread. For the record, I believe that we have a major issue with large multinational corporations in modern society considering a major swing to extreme right wing politics as manipulated by the media and I believe the underhanded tactics used by a number of these large corporations are simply unacceptable - I'm not just singling Microsoft out here, they're quite obviously just the focus of the discussion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ChadD
like this
Tiberian said:
Nobody is being forced to use Windows, nobody, anywhere, except maybe people working at Microsoft itself but they're getting paid to use it so that's that.
Click to expand...

When the day comes that the OS isn't force installed on 99% of OEM devices out there, you may have a case. Until then the OS is literally forced onto the consumer, they aren't making a conscious decision in relation to choice of OS, nine times out of ten they're purchasing Windows products as it's obvious "they're cheaper than the Apple alternative" and it's all everyone knows.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ChadD
like this
Protip: nobody is being forced to use Windows, nothing is stopping anyone from installing another OS on a personal computer (even SecureBoot BS doesn't prevent that anymore), and nobody is being forced to use a computer either, for that matter.

But you keep right on beating that dead horse, by all means.
 
B00nie said:
Please go and study. I'm not going to spend time educating your ass. Just as a couple of examples Amiga had a graphical desktop and true multithread operation when most PC:s were still running DOS.
Click to expand...

Amiga didn't die off because of Microsoft, it died off because of its own issues. It is funny you would bring up Amiga though, as Microsoft actually wrote software for AmigaOS. Amiga died because of poor marketing and management by Commodore, not specifically because of Microsoft. In fact, the biggest problem is Commodore kept insisting on marketing it as a gaming system instead of a full blown home computer (which it was). Game developers stopped developing games for the Amiga several years before it became defunct because gaming systems had surpassed the abilities of the Amiga. Also you seem to think the Amiga was top of the line, but it wasn't. By its end it was lagging behind other systems which had surpassed its capabilities. It started off as state of the art, but it got caught in a muddle of mismanagement and lack of direction under the control of Commodore. But you know, maybe I should educate myself about it...

Also what is even funnier about this example is the fact that Amiga was run by a company that was even less interested in sharing anything than Microsoft. Amiga was designed on specific systems and was closed, just like the Apple computers. In fact, the only OS really designed to work on different systems and hardware at the time was Microsoft until Linux came about. OS/2 Warp was also a pretty good system, it was co-developed by IBM and Microsoft. Microsoft pulled out of the partnership though, and IBM didn't have a real interest in marketing it or supporting it on its own. I have fond memories of both Amiga and OS/2 Warp as I learned on them really before I used any DOS system. I was never really a fan of DOS, I was using OS/2 and I picked up Linux as soon as it came out. When OS/2 support dropped a bit and it wasn't going to be carried, I went with Linux and been with Linux to this day.

The problem is people like to post one-liners about companies and then say they are solely responsible, but the truth is far more complex. Did Microsoft have a hand in many competitors losing out? Yes, of course they were in competition to them. But Microsoft also had direct involvement in the initial success of many of those companies too. What happened many times is Microsoft would help a company, and then that company would turn around and start working with a competitor and using specific methodologies that MS helped develop to improve a competitors product. That itself is shady, and MS responded with cutthroat business, many times trying to cut that company out from the knees in response to that company's actions. But Microsoft was not the sole reason those companies or systems died out. Many of them caused their own demise because of poor decisions. This is true of the history of many large companies. I just find it disingenuous that MS is singled out when many other tech companies have done the same or worse.
 
BulletDust said:
When the day comes that the OS isn't force installed on 99% of OEM devices out there, you may have a case. Until then the OS is literally forced onto the consumer, they aren't making a conscious decision in relation to choice of OS, nine times out of ten they're purchasing Windows products as it's obvious "they're cheaper than the Apple alternative" and it's all everyone knows.
Click to expand...

So what about systems that are forced to have OSX, or systems that are forced to have Solaris, or systems that are forced to have other OS's? You forget that MS was created to open the OEM market up so you could have competition in hardware. Without MS, we may never have had the open competition in hardware in the PC market. That doesn't mean MS is awesome, it just means you are cutting out a large part of PC history and using blinders towards one company.
 
Tiberian said:
Protip: nobody is being forced to use Windows, nothing is stopping anyone from installing another OS on a personal computer (even SecureBoot BS doesn't prevent that anymore), and nobody is being forced to use a computer either, for that matter.

But you keep right on beating that dead horse, by all means.
Click to expand...

Average users don't install Operating systems... they never have. IBM hired MS to ship a Disc operating system with their machines for a reason. You can't expect customers to go out and research what OS to install... and which ones will work... and what do I need to do.

If they started shipping computers with no operating system and a windows disc in the box... more then half would get returned because people wouldn't be able to get it working.
 
NoOther said:
So what about systems that are forced to have OSX, or systems that are forced to have Solaris, or systems that are forced to have other OS's? You forget that MS was created to open the OEM market up so you could have competition in hardware. Without MS, we may never have had the open competition in hardware in the PC market. That doesn't mean MS is awesome, it just means you are cutting out a large part of PC history and using blinders towards one company.
Click to expand...

Your attributing things to MS that they had nothing to do with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_compatible

IBM is what made the PC revolution really happen... even if they didn't intend it. They thought they would be able to protect their systems legally and lost. MS wasn't created to build an industry.... I will hand it to them though they where smart enough to know they could cash in and make the software the product instead of the hardware. Still without hardware being uniform they would have never been able to lock things down. Companies like Compaq that went as far as finding and copying early Intel chip bugs to ensure compatibility... are what made everything possible for MS. IBM believed they could keep control of the platform using their legal teams to ensure it would always be their platform. Turns out their where legal loopholes they didn't predict... or perhaps expect other companies would be willing to contort themselves enough to use. If you have never watched Halt and Catch fire... its not exactly perfectly factual, but their are some kernels of truth in their. For one unifying OS the hardware had to be. MS wasn't started or hired by IBM to unify anything... they saw the opening though. Bill and his buddies where cunning you can't deny that.
 
Last edited:
NoOther said:
So what about systems that are forced to have OSX, or systems that are forced to have Solaris, or systems that are forced to have other OS's? You forget that MS was created to open the OEM market up so you could have competition in hardware. Without MS, we may never have had the open competition in hardware in the PC market. That doesn't mean MS is awesome, it just means you are cutting out a large part of PC history and using blinders towards one company.
Click to expand...

I mentioned Apple and Solaris isn't aimed at the consumer market. There is no evidence that MS are the saviours of modern computing in anyway whatsoever, however there is plenty of evidence of them flatting the competition so that they could monopolise the marketplace, no one in indebted to their outstanding achievements and I struggle to see how less competition benefits the consumer. The fact still remains that considering the bulk of PC sales out there Windows is a forced install, thus fully explaining it's usage statistics. The usage statistics of Windows has literally nothing to do with the fact that it's a great OS.
 
Last edited:
Then it's a good thing that I never signed any kind of agreement with Microsoft in the decades I was building machines with my bare hands and putting whatever OS the customer's wanted on 'em, phew. :D
 
Tiberian said:
Then it's a good thing that I never signed any kind of agreement with Microsoft in the decades I was building machines with my bare hands and putting whatever OS the customer's wanted on 'em, phew. :D
Click to expand...

Personally I'm talking about the branded OEM machines that dominate the market. As a system builder myself there is no way us little guys can compete with the larger OEM's mostly due to the relative cost of Windows.
 
Tiberian said:
Then it's a good thing that I never signed any kind of agreement with Microsoft in the decades I was building machines with my bare hands and putting whatever OS the customer's wanted on 'em, phew. :D
Click to expand...

Yes indeed... good thing you remained small time. :)

I joke but ya any of the majors, the dells the hps. Couldn't sell you a machine with no OS at all even if they wanted to. Their contracts with MS disallow such sales. Having the majority of the market allows you to push such BS on OEMS. It all began when OEMS bowed to their wishes way back in the days of DR-DOS. When they forced OEMS shipping the Windows Program (it was just a file shell) to buy a copy of MS-DOS as well. Meaning they could sell you DR-DOS but had to sell you MS-DOS as well anyway... that was the end of the superior Novel DR-DOS. If you can't beat them, force their re-sellers to pay.
 
NoOther said:
Amiga didn't die off because of Microsoft, it died off because of its own issues. It is funny you would bring up Amiga though, as Microsoft actually wrote software for AmigaOS. Amiga died because of poor marketing and management by Commodore, not specifically because of Microsoft. In fact, the biggest problem is Commodore kept insisting on marketing it as a gaming system instead of a full blown home computer (which it was). Game developers stopped developing games for the Amiga several years before it became defunct because gaming systems had surpassed the abilities of the Amiga. Also you seem to think the Amiga was top of the line, but it wasn't. By its end it was lagging behind other systems which had surpassed its capabilities. It started off as state of the art, but it got caught in a muddle of mismanagement and lack of direction under the control of Commodore. But you know, maybe I should educate myself about it...

Also what is even funnier about this example is the fact that Amiga was run by a company that was even less interested in sharing anything than Microsoft. Amiga was designed on specific systems and was closed, just like the Apple computers. In fact, the only OS really designed to work on different systems and hardware at the time was Microsoft until Linux came about. OS/2 Warp was also a pretty good system, it was co-developed by IBM and Microsoft. Microsoft pulled out of the partnership though, and IBM didn't have a real interest in marketing it or supporting it on its own. I have fond memories of both Amiga and OS/2 Warp as I learned on them really before I used any DOS system. I was never really a fan of DOS, I was using OS/2 and I picked up Linux as soon as it came out. When OS/2 support dropped a bit and it wasn't going to be carried, I went with Linux and been with Linux to this day.

The problem is people like to post one-liners about companies and then say they are solely responsible, but the truth is far more complex. Did Microsoft have a hand in many competitors losing out? Yes, of course they were in competition to them. But Microsoft also had direct involvement in the initial success of many of those companies too. What happened many times is Microsoft would help a company, and then that company would turn around and start working with a competitor and using specific methodologies that MS helped develop to improve a competitors product. That itself is shady, and MS responded with cutthroat business, many times trying to cut that company out from the knees in response to that company's actions. But Microsoft was not the sole reason those companies or systems died out. Many of them caused their own demise because of poor decisions. This is true of the history of many large companies. I just find it disingenuous that MS is singled out when many other tech companies have done the same or worse.
Click to expand...

Such a long post and you totally missed the SUBJECT of the post. What you wrote has zero to do with the fact that Microsoft has not been the driving innovation, it has always copied the works of others and used illegal business practices to drive other businesses out of business.

It's not the dominant OS for being the best, far from it.
 
B00nie said:
Such a long post and you totally missed the SUBJECT of the post. What you wrote has zero to do with the fact that Microsoft has not been the driving innovation, it has always copied the works of others and used illegal business practices to drive other businesses out of business.

It's not the dominant OS for being the best, far from it.
Click to expand...

Exactly!
 
BulletDust said:
Not in Australia they don't, I can't even by an XPS 13 developer edition with Ubuntu preinstalled and I have a market for it.
Click to expand...

Protip: Yes, you can, I've got a client in Melbourne that just got one 3 weeks ago, from in-country, loves the thing to death compared to the MacBook Pro he previously owned and is quite happy with the Linux base on it since he like myself and many others simply will not use Windows 10. Of course he's had a Dell Corporate account for 27 years now so, he gets whatever the fuck he wants, go figure.

YMMV, of course.
 
Tiberian said:
Protip: Yes, you can, I've got a client in Melbourne that just got one 3 weeks ago, from in-country, loves the thing to death compared to the MacBook Pro he previously owned and is quite happy with the Linux base on it since he like myself and many others simply will not use Windows 10. Of course he's had a Dell Corporate account for 27 years now so, he gets whatever the fuck he wants, go figure.

YMMV, of course.
Click to expand...

Well I'd love to know how he managed that. As a Dell re seller, you can't get them in AU, Dell AU don't sell them in AU at all and they will not import them on a case by case basis.

I'm tipping he bought from Dell US and imported it privately.
 
It really gets troublesome when you put info in a post and it just gets dismissed, you know. ;)

He's done like $18 million worth of business with Dell in Australia over the years, so I'll say it again: he gets whatever the fuck he wants, and I'll leave it at that.
 
Tiberian said:
It really gets troublesome when you put info in a post and it just gets dismissed, you know. ;)

He's done like $18 million worth of business with Dell in Australia over the years, so I'll say it again: he gets whatever the fuck he wants, and I'll leave it at that.
Click to expand...

$18 million? Right.

So my point still stands, in Australia you cannot buy an XPS 13/15 developer edition laptop with Ubuntu installed. ;)
 
BulletDust said:
$18 million? Right.

So my point still stands, in Australia you cannot buy an XPS 13/15 developer edition laptop with Ubuntu installed. ;)
Click to expand...

I guess we can call that the Aussie Dell Linux tax ? lol

Kidden. Its hard to buy machines with Linux preinstalled in many markets. I can understand some of the reasons for OEMs not wanting to go their for their own reasons.... MS has no doubt however taken a more active no you don't stance with OEMs in the past. Bottom line is its not easy to get Linux pre installed hardware at this point. Average Joe and Janes aren't seeing them down at the local box stores. It will change at some point... sadly that point will be most likely when Google pushes bastardised although I guess still better then MS versions on people soon enough. Not that you can't find Chromebooks... but I still believe to protect their Search $ Google is likely to make a much bigger play for the consumer desktop before long. Microsofts quarterly reports are starting to list Advertising driven by W10 as their largest revenue stream from their stupidly named "more personal computing" division. Its hiding a lot of backwards sliding other MS divisions like Xbox and mobile. If they keep growing it I think Google pretty much has to respond faster then they where planning.

Guess we'll find out over the next few years. Does Google just wait for Mobile android and chromeos to erode the landscape and keep MS in their little desktop box. Or do they make a play to destroy MS main windows market thus killing their growing ad dollars before people start seriously saying "bing it' instead of "Google it" LMAO ok no one is ever saying that.
 
BulletDust said:
So my point still stands, in Australia you cannot buy an XPS 13/15 developer edition laptop with Ubuntu installed.
Click to expand...

I never said I could, I said you could, but if you're just not in good enough with Dell Australia or a large enough customer on the reseller side of things, well, then maybe you can't. It's all about relationships more than money to be honest, and having Dell (anywhere) provide you a machine with Linux installed on it isn't nearly as difficult as you might believe.
 
Tiberian said:
I never said I could, I said you could, but if you're just not in good enough with Dell Australia or a large enough customer on the reseller side of things, well, then maybe you can't. It's all about relationships more than money to be honest, and having Dell (anywhere) provide you a machine with Linux installed on it isn't nearly as difficult as you might believe.
Click to expand...

Your mate is the only person I've ever heard of doing such a thing. Furthermore, you don't know me from a bar of soap! What do you know about my relationship with Dell! There's a great many assumptions and blanket statements on these forums, must be an American thing?!

In Australia, with the exception of your mate, it is impossible to buy a Dell laptop without Windows installed unless you go top of the line Precision as a custom made machine - Even then only a re seller can order such a device, the average consumer cannot.
 
See, now you're cookin' with fire, I knew you'd figure it sooner or later and hence my point: it is possible. You think someone that's done $18 million of business with Dell is doing it with consumer class hardware? :D
 
  • Like
Reactions: ChadD
like this
Tiberian said:
See, now you're cookin' with fire, I knew you'd figure it sooner or later and hence my point: it is possible. You think someone that's done $18 million of business with Dell is doing it with consumer class hardware? :D
Click to expand...

We need a haha like just like the kids have on the facebook. :) lol
 
Tiberian said:
See, now you're cookin' with fire, I knew you'd figure it sooner or later and hence my point: it is possible. You think someone that's done $18 million of business with Dell is doing it with consumer class hardware? :D
Click to expand...

You think you're quite clever, don't ya? Don't get too cocky. ;)

I've always known that as a reseller i can custom make a Dell Precision with Linux preinstalled. However I wasn't specifically talking about a Dell Precision, I was talking about an XPS 13 as the XPS 13 is mildly affordable and available to consumers, the Precision is well out of the reach of most and therefore worthless to me as a reseller.

The fact still stands that no consumer can waltz onto the Dell AU website and buy an XPS Developer Edition with Ubuntu installed, you tried to make a point, you failed.

Got any evidence of the XPS with Linux preinstalled that your mate just happened to be privileged enough to buy?
 
Last edited:
You assume too much, Padawan, and when you go that far in your attempts to gain some traction, well, it never works out quite like you thought it would when you took that first step but we understand, honestly we do. ;)
 
Tiberian said:
You assume too much, Padawan, and when you go that far in your attempts to gain some traction, well, it never works out quite like you thought it would when you took that first step but we understand, honestly we do. ;)
Click to expand...

I love the way you assume superiority! So cute!
 
So the message is that if you buy out Dell Inc. you can get linux boxes pretty much at will. Perfectly believable.
 
ChadD said:
Or do they make a play to destroy MS main windows market thus killing their growing ad dollars before people start seriously saying "bing it' instead of "Google it" LMAO ok no one is ever saying that.
Click to expand...

With Windows, macOS and Linux in the market, what does Google bring to desktops that's not already there? Some variant of Android with an ecosystem built on phone apps moved over the desktop isn't new and those devices to date haven't done well. And Google already gets ad money in Windows from the Chrome browser. They'd probably be better off it terms of ad profit by developing UWAs for Windows 10.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top