NHS considering Ubuntu after windows XP debacle.

EVIL-SCOTSMAN said:
Uh, I use bunty myself.

Am not saying they couldnt use it, what I am saying is, if shit just turned to a diff OS from windows overnight with people not being shown how to use it, the nhs would crash.

You ever seen the results of the nhs's and other big UK gov depts software deployments ? They have a great track record for shit going south at the start and I very much doubt that would change.

Remember, you cannot run the nhs on trial and error and a "oh dont worry it will take time but you will get used to it", it deals with a million plus patients on a daily basis.
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WTF are you talking about? With the exception of unity and gnome3 a linux desktop looks and works exactly like a windows desktop. What exactly is there to learn and why wouldn't they be able to use it?
 
You think because it looks similar its the same ?

Its an entirely different OS with different menus and different places for things.

If you dont think a nationwide rollout in the UK wouldnt be beset by problems due to unfamiliarity by the majority of users, you must be one of the lucky ones were you knew how to use linux perfectly the very first time you saw it.

Its not the fact that they couldnt get used to it, its the fact that the nhs is huge and a huge rollout like that with the majority of users totally unfamiliar with linux, regardless if it looks like windows or not, its still not what they have been used to using for the last 20 year.

The nhs just could not suddenly up and change to it overnight as it would become totally and utterly unproductive and thats not a good thing when you have 70 million customers and are treating 1 million plus per day all over the country from hospitals, to gp surgeries to dentists to physio therpists, to receptionists to xray depts, operating depts, you name it, it couldnt be done without MAJOR problems.

You just have to look at their track record, they cant even change simple email programs without utter chaos and bringing the entire nhs email system to its knees.

Am sorry, but no matter how much times you say their wouldnt be any problem as its a desktop os just like windows so everyone will just pick it up easily, I totally have to disagree with you on that point.

We are talking about such a huge deployment that it would take years to complete and during that time confusion would reign.

People will become familiar with it, but you cant just expect that to happen overnight and in such a huge deployment, especially when it comes to personal medical files and when all is said and done, peoples lives depend on a fully functional nhs, not a this dept is closed because of IT problems so we will reschedule your heart operation for 6 months time.

I think we should agree to disagree on this one, hopefully if it does happen then I am proved wrong as its a pain in the arse waiting months for a hospital appt only for it to be cancelled because of whatever problem, but I doubt it.
 
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https://www.openhealthhub.org/t/welcome-to-nhsbuntu/908

I don't know seems like these guys are on top of things.... looking over what they have done with ubuntu it all seems very logical to me. Their presentation files seem logical enough.

Users aren't going to be confused with "placings" of anything :) Libre office looks like Libre office... it really doesn't matter what OS your running. Lets all be honest Windows Linux Mac... the "OS" stays out of the way of users these days. (well never mind no windows still confuses some people :) )
 
Dont get me wrong, I am all for moving away from MS products and using something like that, it would save alot of money that could possibly be ploughed back into the nhs if they the gov saw fit to do that.

I dont know the exact cost of licensing of windows in the nhs but I expect its huge, moving to a somewhat free platform, albeit still having to buy the software they use to run on it, it would still save millions and that I am all for.

If it could be done smoothly, without major problems affecting patients then I am 100% all for it.

A rushed deployment just for the sake of saving licensing/support costs of windows, that I am not for, and if its going to happen do it right and have people take a couple days training to get used to it before they are let loose on an actual live networked system.
 
BulletDust said:
Well they didn't update XP as there wasn't any updates available, shouldn't be a problem under Ubuntu.

The biggest issue is funding and licencing costs, that won't be an issue under Ubuntu either.
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This is incorrect. There are costs for Ubuntu support for enterprises, there is also the cost of engineering for switching over the infrastructure. There are additional costs for porting over other services and applications as well. So there absolutely are still funding and licensing costs, even moving to open source platforms.

I have been involved in a number of government programs switching over to Linux platforms, and there has always been a significant cost to it. However, in certain cases, I believe it is the right move. I doubt the entire NHS will switch to Ubuntu, but they very well may move certain projects, departments, and/or servers over to it. This type of thing is going on all over various government programs in many different countries.
 
EVIL-SCOTSMAN said:
Dont get me wrong, I am all for moving away from MS products and using something like that, it would save alot of money that could possibly be ploughed back into the nhs if they the gov saw fit to do that.

I dont know the exact cost of licensing of windows in the nhs but I expect its huge, moving to a somewhat free platform, albeit still having to buy the software they use to run on it, it would still save millions and that I am all for.

If it could be done smoothly, without major problems affecting patients then I am 100% all for it.

A rushed deployment just for the sake of saving licensing/support costs of windows, that I am not for, and if its going to happen do it right and have people take a couple days training to get used to it before they are let loose on an actual live networked system.
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Training is always good if its needed. It would be no different with a move to Windows 10 either.

From what I have been reading it sounds like they are making good progress. They have made a few odd choices like sticking with Evolution the default Gnome mail client instead of thunderbird ect. It does sound like they are hammering it all out. Usability wise looking at their vidoes it looks like a pretty nicely laid out Gnome 3 setup with quick launches for all the major apps.
 
ChadD said:
Training is always good if its needed. It would be no different with a move to Windows 10 either.

From what I have been reading it sounds like they are making good progress. They have made a few odd choices like sticking with Evolution the default Gnome mail client instead of thunderbird ect. It does sound like they are hammering it all out. Usability wise looking at their vidoes it looks like a pretty nicely laid out Gnome 3 setup with quick launches for all the major apps.
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Looks like it is downloadable from the www.nhsbuntu.org site. I think when I get back from my trip this weekend, I might try to download it and test it out. Will be interesting to see what all they have in it.
 
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Totally agree, it would be the same moving from XP to windows 10, but maybe not as bad as windows ten is on alot of home pc's and laptops and anyone who has a recent pc should be familiar with the latest windows interface or atleast semi familiar, but yes it would be no different.

Basically, a patient of the nhs deal primarily with receptionists, thats our point of contact for everything nhs related and if they went to work one day to be greeted with a totally new OS and told just to get on with it, well not many appts will be made that day which then has a knock on effect.

Doctors, well I have seen a few who can use a computer but when they first started the job, their job consisted of hand writing in patients notes and pc's werent in the doctors rooms. Anyway, some I have seen and they would be 50+ years old and who would be nearing retirement, lets just say one didnt even know how to use the bloody calendar in windows XP, she didnt even know their was one til I told her, sadly when she tried to use it it was locked down, same with the clock.

Another doctor, he looks at the screen like he is demented and takes forever to get to the right page, then print a prescription out, his daily job is sitting in the same office 5 days a week seeing patients and his primary tool is his pc which I am sure he thinks its powered by witchcraft.
 
NoOther said:
This is incorrect. There are costs for Ubuntu support for enterprises, there is also the cost of engineering for switching over the infrastructure. There are additional costs for porting over other services and applications as well. So there absolutely are still funding and licensing costs, even moving to open source platforms.

I have been involved in a number of government programs switching over to Linux platforms, and there has always been a significant cost to it. However, in certain cases, I believe it is the right move. I doubt the entire NHS will switch to Ubuntu, but they very well may move certain projects, departments, and/or servers over to it. This type of thing is going on all over various government programs in many different countries.
Click to expand...

We know there's costs involved, however contrary to what I'm sure you'll claim I very much doubt that those costs will be as expensive as sticking to a Microsoft solution. Once again, this document is old, but every line still applies today:

http://static.lwn.net/images/pdf/cybersource-tco-study.pdf
 
heatlesssun said:
And the hardware I have doesn't tend to get the support under Linux as it does Windows, hardware that doesn't even come from Microsoft and is sold standalone. You've made much about the confusion of Windows S. Well think of the confusion over something like a $200 webcam that's advertised to record in 4k 30 FPS. One plugs it into a Linux PC and well, gee where is that option?
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I've got plenty of hardware that no longer works under Windows, a $500.00 professional sound card springs to mind.

heatlesssun said:
The of an operating system is to support hardware and software. GPS hardware tracks peoples' location, cameras can identify a person, data syncs to the cloud to be used across systems. You may not care for these things but it's nothing more than support for hardware and software.
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And Linux supports variants of such hardware and software, Windows is by no means whatsoever immune to driver issues. While Linux may offer slightly less support for such items in certain scenarios, you are vastly overstating the issue.

heatlesssun said:
But all that hardware out there that people buy, they do care if it is supported. Once again you're trying to make it about me when I'm simply pointing out issues with hardware that's freely available for anyone to buy.
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The latest 1080Ti is supported under Linux, VR is supported under Linux and there are plenty of webcams are most certainly supported under Linux. I now have five PC's here running Linux as I slowly phase out my Windows systems and out of all the hardware I have used on those PC's the only one that didn't have working drivers out the box was a particular DTV-T card. Based on just that small sample group, I've personally had less in the way of driver issues under Linux than I have under Windows.

heatlesssun said:
Webcams, GPUs, VR headsets, 3D monitors, it's all stuff that's freely available to buy. Whatever you or I think about it, those are options out there for anyone to use if they want to and can afford it. So if the stuff if out there for anyone to buy, a lot more people care about than just me. Otherwise this stuff wouldn't be for sale.
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And once again, Windows is not immune to driver issues. Windows generally, although not always, works well with newer hardware, while Linux generally works well with older hardware - Although newer hardware is eventually supported under Linux, sometimes drivers are a month or so behind. Neither OS is immune to driver issues.

Once again, you overstate the importance of Windows. I run Linux as well as Windows, Linux is my primary OS and I love it, it's quite simply the best OS I have ever used and as a high end user I achieve everything I need to achieve on my PC and more running Linux, I never feel in any way limited running Linux, Linux is not the wasteland you believe it to be in your very limited experience with the OS.
 
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BulletDust said:
We know there's costs involved, however contrary to what I'm sure you'll claim I very much doubt that those costs will be as expensive as sticking to a Microsoft solution. Once again, this document is old, but every line still applies today:

http://static.lwn.net/images/pdf/cybersource-tco-study.pdf
Click to expand...

You like to respond before reading my entire posts, like where I said:

NoOther said:
However, in certain cases, I believe it is the right move.
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I also made no claims as to it being more expensive than Microsoft in the long run, though depending on the size of the company it can be. The biggest factor is the cost of software vs the cost of support. The cost of support is actually far higher for Linux than Windows based on both the internal cost of qualified support personnel as well as the external support from the OS provider.

Note that many large companies and government agencies have already switched a lot of large data and server platforms for Linux. This ends up being a win-win for them as they can reduce the cost of many software applications and licenses with the open source solutions, and they can reasonably find the Linux support staff they need for that infrastructure, while maintaining desktop Windows support.

Also reading that pdf you show, that is a terrible comparison. First it was done a long time ago, under completely different ecosphere. Second, they are using a lot of expensive software that you don't necessarily need with MS. They also talk about subscription for support from MS at far greater than I have ever seen in an enterprise, especially for government which is usually at 66% of the commercial enterprise rate. And at worst, it doesn't even do apple-apple. MySQL is in no way an equivalent of SQL Server. They are also using very basic options and not using nearly the types of applications and software that have been on federated and enterprise systems since early 2000s, much less the specific applications and programs being used by various groups in the company. I mean there are just too many things wrong with that comparison to even start with.

The successful conversions I have seen and been a part of almost always start with smaller projects and work their way up to a a department/office, then gradually more. It's similar to the way I used to migrate a newly acquired company into the larger company's enterprise. The overall ROI should be greater for a Linux environment provided you can adequate long term support both internally and externally which is a major factor.
 
BulletDust said:
The latest 1080Ti is supported under Linux, VR is supported under Linux and there are plenty of webcams are most certainly supported under Linux.
Click to expand...

You're going to have significant disagreement over the word supported with folks that have things like 1080 Tis and PC VR. Sure these things are supported under Linux. But who the hell would buy this kind of stuff for what it costs to run exclusively under Linux? No one who could because it's pointless. Currently there are a total of FOUR games that official VR support in Steam. Under Windows 10, 1298. I say Windows 10 specifically because there are, not a lot but some VR titles coming out that are Windows 10 only, Superhot VR that just launched today for the Vive on Steam is 10 only, at least that's what the specs say on the Steam Store page.

I never said that Windows didn't have driver issues. I've said repeatedly that if one wants the latest and greatest in PC hardware and software that the latest version of Windows is really the only option as it has been for many years now.
 
heatlesssun said:
You're going to have significant disagreement over the word supported with folks that have things like 1080 Tis and PC VR. Sure these things are supported under Linux. But who the hell would buy this kind of stuff for what it costs to run exclusively under Linux? No one who could because it's pointless. Currently there are a total of FOUR games that official VR support in Steam. Under Windows 10, 1298. I say Windows 10 specifically because there are, not a lot but some VR titles coming out that are Windows 10 only, Superhot VR that just launched today for the Vive on Steam is 10 only, at least that's what the specs say on the Steam Store page.

I never said that Windows didn't have driver issues. I've said repeatedly that if one wants the latest and greatest in PC hardware and software that the latest version of Windows is really the only option as it has been for many years now.
Click to expand...

Well that's a blanket generalisation, isn't it? I'm sure there's people out there that have an interest in tinkering with VR that run Linux - Perhaps they're developing VR applications in an attempt to make the technology worthwhile and don't want to deal with the licencing costs of Windows.
 
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heatlesssun said:
You're going to have significant disagreement over the word supported with folks that have things like 1080 Tis and PC VR. Sure these things are supported under Linux. But who the hell would buy this kind of stuff for what it costs to run exclusively under Linux? No one who could because it's pointless. Currently there are a total of FOUR games that official VR support in Steam. Under Windows 10, 1298. I say Windows 10 specifically because there are, not a lot but some VR titles coming out that are Windows 10 only, Superhot VR that just launched today for the Vive on Steam is 10 only, at least that's what the specs say on the Steam Store page.

I never said that Windows didn't have driver issues. I've said repeatedly that if one wants the latest and greatest in PC hardware and software that the latest version of Windows is really the only option as it has been for many years now.
Click to expand...

1080s get used by Linux users all the time. There is always need for a good compute or gaming card.

VR headsets get used by almost nobody on any PC platform.

Pick this line of argument back up in a year from now if by some fluke of the market the current 2 PC VR supplier can manage to ship a total of a million units lifetime between the two of them.

In FY17 Q1 Rift sold 64,000 units and Vive sold 95,000... so their on track to sell a whopping 640-650,000 units this year. PC VR in its current form is DOA. Even by the end of 2017 the VR software market will be lucky to have much more then 1 million potential customers. With that type of install base... AAA style VR games are just not going to happen no matter what platform where talking about. Facebook just closed their in house 3D studio... and I don't think many big publishers are going to be betting on PC VR.
 
BulletDust said:
Well that's a blanket generalisation, isn't it. I'm sure there's people out there that have an interest in tinkering with VR that run Linux
Click to expand...

I agree. Those folks are no where in this forum though.

BulletDust said:
- Perhaps they're developing VR applications in an attempt to make the technology worthwhile and don't want to deal with the licencing costs of Windows.
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When you're pulling out tape measures and drilling holes in the walls and rearranging a space the cost of a Windows license isn't really that big of deal. I get that you say that no one cares about what I do on my PCs and that's fair. But the cost of Windows relative to the cost of everything else to run this kind of stuff is ant shit.

The real money I'd save running desktop Linux isn't in Windows licensing but not bothering with all the stuff that has nothing to do with Microsoft that simply doesn't have Linux support. I'd never have bought a Vive to run four games. And even in development, the tooling in VS with something like Unity is well beyond anything I know of in Linux.
 
heatlesssun said:
When you're pulling out tape measures and drilling holes in the walls and rearranging a space the cost of a Windows license isn't really that big of deal. I get that you say that no one cares about what I do on my PCs and that's fair. But the cost of Windows relative to the cost of everything else to run this kind of stuff is ant shit.

The real money I'd save running desktop Linux isn't in Windows licensing but not bothering with all the stuff that has nothing to do with Microsoft that simply doesn't have Linux support. I'd never have bought a Vive to run four games. And even in development, the tooling in VS with something like Unity is well beyond anything I know of in Linux.
Click to expand...

He wasn't talking about end users... he was talking about developers. When MS launches their VR headsets in a few months where do you think the software is going to come from... and do you think MS is going to allow developers access to their store and VR platform for nothing ? Yes their is a lot of development of VR on Linux going on right now... no Valve wasn't in a big rush to get Linux support up and running last year when there where less then 50,000 VR head sets in the world... at the end of last year there was a total of 400k vive headsets out in the world still not a big rush frankly. The vive is on track to sell LESS this year then last.... so ya Linux development is heading forth but really whats the rush. The market doesn't even exist yet.
 
ChadD said:
1080s get used by Linux users all the time. There is always need for a good compute or gaming card.
Click to expand...

So where are the Linux users on this forum that have high end hardware that use it exclusively under Linux? I never said such hardware doesn't work under Linux, I simply said who pays the price for this stuff to run it exclusively under Linux.

ChadD said:
VR headsets get used by almost nobody on any PC platform.
Click to expand...

Almost nobody though is getting about the same volume of gaming titles as conventional Linux gamers on Steam these days. 408 Linux native titles on Steam and 418 VR titles this year of which only 2 are Linux compatible and came out for Windows last year.
 
heatlesssun said:
So where are the Linux users on this forum that have high end hardware that use it exclusively under Linux? I never said such hardware doesn't work under Linux, I simply said who pays the price for this stuff to run it exclusively under Linux.
Click to expand...

I think I have told you more then once I have clients who use high end Nvidia and AMD cards under Linux all the time. Ya right now I agree not many Linux gamers are foaming at the mouth for 1080s cause who cares frankly... if your a Linux gamer you likely appreciate games that run just fine on a 1050. I'm not really understanding you point though... because the 5 or 6 of us that defend Linux all the time spend more time working with Linux then playing with it, somehow high end hardware is invalid for Linux ? I'm not following your logic. Not long ago I setup a couple system running 32gb AMD W9100s... so clearly windows SUCKS for serious work cause none of the 10 or so windows boosters around here own a firepro or quatro card.

heatlesssun said:
Almost nobody though is getting about the same volume of gaming titles as conventional Linux gamers on Steam these days. 408 Linux native titles on Steam and 418 VR titles this year of which only 2 are Linux compatible and came out for Windows last year.
Click to expand...

Spin all you want... VR is dead. Sorry about that. Perhaps MS with HP Acer and Asus will save it.
 
ChadD said:
He wasn't talking about end users... he was talking about developers. When MS launches their VR headsets in a few months where do you think the software is going to come from... and do you think MS is going to allow developers access to their store and VR platform for nothing ?
Click to expand...

Steam doesn't open their store for free either, even for Linux.

ChadD said:
Yes their is a lot of development of VR on Linux going on right now...
Click to expand...

Compared to Windows no there isn't. People like you constantly blast the hell out of VR but there's lots of development going on but nothing to show for it what Windows is leaps and bounds ahead in content?

ChadD said:
no Valve wasn't in a big rush to get Linux support up and running last year when there where less then 50,000 VR head sets in the world... at the end of last year there was a total of 400k vive headsets out in the world still not a big rush frankly. The vive is on track to sell LESS this year then last.... so ya Linux development is heading forth but really whats the rush. The market doesn't even exist yet.
Click to expand...

It's not really up to Valve and again you're acting as though almost 1300 titles versus 4 is a lot of development.
 
Dead heatle. I know you don't want to admit it... its going to take Vive and Oculus almost 3 years to ship one million units between the two of them. That isn't a market.

Developers are simply not going to put big money into a product with that low an install base. Think about it even if a AA game was to get green lit with a 10 million budget. To break even they would have to sell that game at $20 a pop and have EVERY single user with a headset buy it. That's just to break even. If only half the install base buys their game, they need to sell at $40.... and it gets crazier from there.

I wasn't rooting against VR heatle honest... still unless something changes in a huge way PC VR is going to wither and die off this year.
 
ChadD said:
I think I have told you more then once I have clients who use high end Nvidia and AMD cards under Linux all the time.
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Anyone here though? This is a PC enthusiast hardware forum and there just never seem to be any of them running Linux. No of the folks that bash me are in any of the gaming, VR, etc. forums.

ChadD said:
Ya right now I agree not many Linux gamers are foaming at the mouth for 1080s cause who cares frankly... if your a Linux gamer you likely appreciate games that run just fine on a 1050.
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And those same games will generally run as well or better with 1050 under Windows.

ChadD said:
I'm not really understanding you point though... because the 5 or 6 of us that defend Linux all the time spend more time working with Linux then playing with it, somehow high end hardware is invalid for Linux ?
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Sure, you'll defend Linux. Then when I ask, "So what do you do with comparable hardware personally." Nothing. Other than "No one cares about what you do with your PC." Someone cares because there's stuff people are selling that works well under Windows.

ChadD said:
Spin all you want... VR is dead. Sorry about that. Perhaps MS with HP Acer and Asus will save it.
Click to expand...

Ok. And if that's what desktop Linux folks think then why in the hell would there be a lot of desktop Linux VR development going on?
 
ChadD said:
Dead heatle. I know you don't want to admit it... its going to take Vive and Oculus almost 3 years to ship one million units between the two of them. That isn't a market.
Click to expand...

And how long is it going to take Linux to reach 10% market share on the desktop?
 
ChadD said:
About 20 years quicker then VR.
Click to expand...

Desktop Linux has been freely available for 20 years. I'll be 49 this coming Tuesday and it's pretty clear many of year just don't remember the anti-trust days of Microsoft. Linux at that time was predicted to take over the desktop and take out Microsoft in short order. If this were the FIRST time I've had the conversation I'd be far more cautious but it's pretty clear what the issues were then and are now. And at the time it wasn't called an ecosystem but that's what it is called today.
 
heatlesssun said:
So where are the Linux users on this forum that have high end hardware that use it exclusively under Linux? I never said such hardware doesn't work under Linux, I simply said who pays the price for this stuff to run it exclusively under Linux.
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Oh I see, so unless they're part of the [H] forums they're not real users! What a load of rubbish! I just love the way you've somehow justified the reasoning to yourself that Linux users don't spend $$ on hardware!

Once again, a massive generalised blanket statement! I spend a fortune on hardware and I'm a Linux user.

heatlesssun said:
When you're pulling out tape measures and drilling holes in the walls and rearranging a space the cost of a Windows license isn't really that big of deal. I get that you say that no one cares about what I do on my PCs and that's fair. But the cost of Windows relative to the cost of everything else to run this kind of stuff is ant shit.
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Of course licencing is an issue, we live in a society that has a massively inflated cost of living that generations before us never had to deal with! Saving $$ on a better OS is always a welcome scenario in my opinion as I don't waste money on shit and Windows is not worth the retail price asked of it, hence the reason [H] users are so quick to jump on the, most likely illegal practice, of buying licence keys off the [H] forums.

Every time you're back against the wall you try the flawed argument relating to VR!
 
heatlesssun said:
Desktop Linux has been freely available for 20 years. I'll be 49 this coming Tuesday and it's pretty clear many of year just don't remember the anti-trust days of Microsoft. Linux at that time was predicted to take over the desktop and take out Microsoft in short order. If this were the FIRST time I've had the conversation I'd be far more cautious but it's pretty clear what the issues were then and are now. And at the time it wasn't called an ecosystem but that's what it is called today.
Click to expand...

WTF are you on about! 20 years ago Windows was a fully fledged OS, under Linux there was still the possibility of destroying your monitor if you got X server incorrectly configured!

20 years ago Linux was most definitely not in any position to topple Windows.
 
BulletDust said:
Oh I see, so unless they're part of the [H] forums they're not real users! What a load of rubbish! I just love the way you've somehow justified the reasoning to yourself that Linux users don't spend $$ on hardware!
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It's just that folks like you spend so much time talking about how awful Windows is and how wonderful Linux is and how VR or whatever that isn't well supported under Linux is crap but you never really say what you are doing personally. It's always about attacking folks and never really saying anything that interesting. Except "Windows 10 is spying on you!" Or about 50-11 different UIs. Or ten year old games. Or Windows update sucks.
 
BulletDust said:
WTF are you on about! 20 years ago Windows was a fully fledged OS, under Linux there was still the possibility of destroying your monitor if you got X server incorrectly configured!

20 years ago Linux was most definitely not in any position to topple Windows.
Click to expand...

Then you should have been around 20 years ago warning people of this stuff. You just don't seem to get or acknowledge that this debate is far older than a couple of years.
 
heatlesssun said:
Then you should have been around 20 years ago warning people of this stuff. You just don't seem to get or acknowledge that this debate is far older than a couple of years.
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You're the messiah of everything modern! I've used operating systems that, suprisingly for your age, you appear to have no idea about!

Fact: 20 years ago there was no assumption whatsoever that Linux was going to topple Windows.

heatlesssun said:
It's just that folks like you spend so much time talking about how awful Windows is and how wonderful Linux is and how VR or whatever that isn't well supported under Linux is crap but you never really say what you are doing personally. It's always about attacking folks and never really saying anything that interesting. Except "Windows 10 is spying on you!" Or about 50-11 different UIs. Or ten year old games. Or Windows update sucks.
Click to expand...

I've outlined many times what I personally do with my machine, in great detail. You simply ignore anything that doesn't support you're meagre thought process.
 
heatlesssun said:
It's just that folks like you spend so much time talking about how awful Windows is and how wonderful Linux is and how VR or whatever that isn't well supported under Linux is crap but you never really say what you are doing personally. It's always about attacking folks and never really saying anything that interesting. Except "Windows 10 is spying on you!" Or about 50-11 different UIs. Or ten year old games. Or Windows update sucks.
Click to expand...

Well windows update does suck... and in general older games are better then the console port slop on windows... we love having a bunch of great UIs and a bunch of shitty ones... Windows does spy on you.... MS does make more money on advertising then selling windows licences these days.... MS is a shitty standard screwing evil company directly from hell... windows is as secure as leaving your filing cabinet out in your front yard.... windows is as bloated as Elvis in his final moment on the commode.

Did I get them all ? They're all true... :)

Oh damn almost forgot the most important one... of the aprox 6,000,000,000 PCs operating in the world 400,000 of them have VR headsets and dows rulezz nix drools.

Believe it or not heatle we can have a conversation about tech stuff... and not always have to feel like we need to offer a personal anecdote for every single point we make. lol
 
ChadD said:
Well windows update does suck... and in general older games are better then the console port slop on windows...
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I'm perfectly with someone who doesn't use Windows 10 say the updates suck as long as they don't cause me a problem. As for older games, I've got some many installed I dizzy these days with a number of 10+ year old games working fine.

ChadD said:
we love having a bunch of great UIs and a bunch of shitty ones...
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One that works across devices is fine for me.

ChadD said:
Windows does spy on you.... MS does make more money on advertising then selling windows licences these days....
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Since I use this stuff and see how it replicates across devices, duh. I never said Windows 10 doesn't pretty much work like a smartphone in that regards these days. And I don't see too many people throwing away their smartphones.

ChadD said:
MS is a shitty standard screwing evil company directly from hell...
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Cool. Find me the company or companies that are 100% certified by you as non-evil that support all that I want to do without tons more money and I'll follow your edict to the letter. Don't tell me that no uses VR or thinks Office sucks or has multiple GPUs that you say tons of Linux users have with no personal testimony. I'll be happy to throw away a cheap ass OS, I won't throw away countless thousands without something to back it up.

ChadD said:
windows is as secure as leaving your filing cabinet out in your front yard.... windows is as bloated as Elvis in his final moment on the commode.
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Ok. I can use Linux and be secure where nothing works. I'll just drop all of that and use a Android phone or Chomebook. Because those are totally secure.

ChadD said:
Oh damn almost forgot the most important one... of the aprox 6,000,000,000 PCs operating in the world 400,000 of them have VR headsets and dows rulezz nix drools.

Believe it or not heatle we can have a conversation about tech stuff... and not always have to feel like we need to offer a personal anecdote for every single point we make. lol
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1.5 billion PCs. And VR gets the same level of support as Linux totally currently. So sure.
 
EVIL-SCOTSMAN said:
You think because it looks similar its the same ?

Its an entirely different OS with different menus and different places for things.

If you dont think a nationwide rollout in the UK wouldnt be beset by problems due to unfamiliarity by the majority of users, you must be one of the lucky ones were you knew how to use linux perfectly the very first time you saw it.

Its not the fact that they couldnt get used to it, its the fact that the nhs is huge and a huge rollout like that with the majority of users totally unfamiliar with linux, regardless if it looks like windows or not, its still not what they have been used to using for the last 20 year.

The nhs just could not suddenly up and change to it overnight as it would become totally and utterly unproductive and thats not a good thing when you have 70 million customers and are treating 1 million plus per day all over the country from hospitals, to gp surgeries to dentists to physio therpists, to receptionists to xray depts, operating depts, you name it, it couldnt be done without MAJOR problems.

You just have to look at their track record, they cant even change simple email programs without utter chaos and bringing the entire nhs email system to its knees.

Am sorry, but no matter how much times you say their wouldnt be any problem as its a desktop os just like windows so everyone will just pick it up easily, I totally have to disagree with you on that point.

We are talking about such a huge deployment that it would take years to complete and during that time confusion would reign.

People will become familiar with it, but you cant just expect that to happen overnight and in such a huge deployment, especially when it comes to personal medical files and when all is said and done, peoples lives depend on a fully functional nhs, not a this dept is closed because of IT problems so we will reschedule your heart operation for 6 months time.

I think we should agree to disagree on this one, hopefully if it does happen then I am proved wrong as its a pain in the arse waiting months for a hospital appt only for it to be cancelled because of whatever problem, but I doubt it.
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You seem to forget that linux can be modified to look just about like anything, including native windows. There is no way in hell menus etc. are going to be a problem.
 
VR is a totally immature gimmick at the moment. It's a niche genre at best and will not gain large popularity unless the nausia and price issues are dealth with. It's completely useless to bring it to the discussion unless your meaning is to troll.
 
heatlesssun said:
1.5 billion PCs. And VR gets the same level of support as Linux totally currently. So sure.
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You have exact figures on the precise number of Linux users globally?

....Of course you don't, you have webcounters and flawed Steam statistics, hardly iron clad figures by any stretch of the imagination! How's all those Intel HD3000 gamers going under Steam? Enjoying the latest AAA titles at stellar settings?
 
BulletDust said:
You have exact figures on the precise number of Linux users globally?

....Of course you don't, you have webcounters and flawed Steam statistics, hardly iron clad figures by any stretch of the imagination! How's all those Intel HD3000 gamers going under Steam? Enjoying the latest AAA titles at stellar settings?
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Of course not their not heat1337... they run on regular old wall power. They best not think about AAA till they install that second power line from the power co. Everyone knows you can't run heat1337 without having double, double pole circuit breakers. Anything less is just Linux territory.
 
NoOther said:
The biggest factor is the cost of software vs the cost of support. The cost of support is actually far higher for Linux than Windows based on both the internal cost of qualified support personnel as well as the external support from the OS provider.
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I've linked an article from 2003/4 that states otherwise and here's another article from 2013 that also states otherwise:

https://www.theinquirer.net/inquire...t-linux-is-cheaper-to-run-than-windows-server

To quote:

The study, which is based on a range of setups in different comparable industries and locales around the world, shows significiant cost savings. The topline figures show a 29 percent savings in infrastructure costs, a 41 percent savings in IT staffing costs, and a staggering 54 percent improvement in productivity.
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I find it hard to believe that come 2017 Red Hat have given up the one thing that gave them a major edge over Microsoft.
 
BulletDust said:
You have exact figures on the precise number of Linux users globally?

....Of course you don't, you have webcounters and flawed Steam statistics, hardly iron clad figures by any stretch of the imagination! How's all those Intel HD3000 gamers going under Steam? Enjoying the latest AAA titles at stellar settings?
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I was just counting game releases from 1/1/2017 to date on Steam. I just think its odd to for some to say how niche PC VR and then talk about the explosive growth of Linux gaming when currently, at least in developer interest, PC VR and native Linux games are coming out at about the same rate.
 
heatlesssun said:
I was just counting game releases from 1/1/2017 to date on Steam. I just think its odd to for some to say how niche PC VR and then talk about the explosive growth of Linux gaming when currently, at least in developer interest, PC VR and native Linux games are coming out at about the same rate.
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Well I'm sure the NHS will take that into account when they select what OS they want to run on their machines. I hear VR gaming is a hot topic of discussion in the English medical field.
 
heatlesssun said:
I was just counting game releases from 1/1/2017 to date on Steam. I just think its odd to for some to say how niche PC VR and then talk about the explosive growth of Linux gaming when currently, at least in developer interest, PC VR and native Linux games are coming out at about the same rate.
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VR is a gold mine at the moment. Any crude shit sells. The VR apps remind me of bargain bin cassette tape games back in the 90's. Even though any computer game was rare and expensive, these bargain bin stuff was guaranteed to disappoint you with a lame idea, lame coding and bugs galore.
 
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B00nie said:
VR is a gold mine at the moment. Any crude shit sells. The VR apps remind me of bargain bin cassette tape games back in the 90's. Even though any computer game was rare and expensive, these bargain bin stuff was guaranteed to disappoint you with a lame idea, lame coding and bugs galore.
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There's certainly a lot of VR shovelware but that's there in PC gaming in general. We're only about a year into common commercial implementations and I don't think those are going away anytime soon. But the good stuff there can be very good.
 
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