Tesla Should Unveil Electric Pickup Right Away for Sake of US Auto Industry

kju1 said:
You didnt account for the percentage of population that doesnt own any vehicle. How large is the car market overall in Europa vs America? I would agree they use them less overall seeing as there is less of a demand since Europe has more population and less rural area. https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-...the-vehicle-fleet/size-of-the-vehicle-fleet-2 But I dont think its fair to make a statement that they:



I also wouldnt call it quite small without knowing all the facts like I said about vehicle ownership rates etc. Worth noting...Thailand has a larger market for trucks than the US does...http://wardsauto.com/industry/pickup-trucks-reign-thailand
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I'm not sure what you're arguing. Japan and Europe are minuscule markets compared the the US auto market. Literally the only thing you could counter on this would be China, but China overwhelmingly buys small cars. Thailand? There were more F-150s sold in the USA in 2016 than EVERY CAR SOLD IN THAILAND COMBINED.

You're not living in reality, friend.
 
Shaten said:
Normally a gas pump makes a temporary charge on your card, and doesn't release the charge till the transaction is done.

thus locking your card the entire time your pumping gas.
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I really had no idea that was how cards worked in the states.. and no im feeling compelled to test it out.... :D

But still why are we talking card when it comes to new technology. We should really move on in the states. Checks er already en obsolete things that you can use in some countries. and cards are in the phase of being phased out.
It seems to me that most our problems with new technology is that we in the states insist on several generations old crap and the gap between our old crap and newest stuff just increases and increases.
Still chips on CC are a thing that is being worked in here in Texas, but oversees CC are on the way out.
 
Twisted Kidney said:
The vast majority of trucks in the USA are for soccer moms and compensators pretending they do any kind of construction or even personal renovation. They don't, they never have, and they never will what with the diabetes eating all those holes in their feet. They make mini-vans for your double-wide scooter, trucks actually suck for that job.
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That is the SUV market. But soccer moms seldom by Pickup trucks. This is about Pickup trucks.

Just like the Jeep Wrangler market, some buyers will be posers, but Jeep Wranglers are still the most likely SUV to go offroad, and pickup trucks are the most likely to be doing real work.

The Pickup Market is highly resistant to even getting a Unibody frame, let alone something like a Tesla with a Box.

I am a Tesla fan, but I don't see them having any real success in the Pickup Truck market, just like I don't see them having any real success in real off road vehicles. Vehicles that are based on heavy duty separate body and frame designs.

Even if this was a market that Tesla could do well in, they will have their hands full with Model 3 for a couple of years. That model is make or break for the company.

Bottom line: Tesla has no bandwidth for another model for the next couple of years, and a Pickup is a poor fit anyway, and if/when Tesla builds it, it will probably flop for them.
 
Shaten said:
Normally a gas pump makes a temporary charge on your card, and doesn't release the charge till the transaction is done.

thus locking your card the entire time your pumping gas.
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That's not how it works...

When you insert your card before you begin to pump, all the system does is a pre-authorization to make sure you even have funds in the account. Once you're done pumping an actual authorization charge goes through. Banks handle that pre-authorizations differently so those can linger for a while before they drop off your account. But to be clear, there is no 'lock' on the card. There is only a temporary hold in the dollar amount of the preauthorization but nothing else.

You're free to make as many purchases as you want while you pump gas like going into the store and buying snacks.
 
rgMekanic said:
To add, once you pack in that 200kw worth of batteries, what payload capacity are you left with?
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I don't think that's really an issue, energy density on li-ion batteries in cars is great. I would imagine that when you factor in the weight saving from the electric motor and drive train it isn't that much more weight. Also as I said, electric motor torque blows away an ICE. It is more about the wind resistance and extra weight from towing / heavy crap in your truck bed.
 
Chaos Machine said:
I don't think that's really an issue, energy density on li-ion batteries in cars is great. I would imagine that when you factor in the weight saving from the electric motor and drive train it isn't that much more weight. Also as I said, electric motor torque blows away an ICE. It is more about the wind resistance and extra weight from towing / heavy crap in your truck bed.
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The 85 kWh battery pack weighs 1,200 lb (540 kg) and contains 7,104 lithium-ion battery cells in 16 modules wired in series

The Chevy small block V8 at 575 lbs
 
Shaten said:
Normally a gas pump makes a temporary charge on your card, and doesn't release the charge till the transaction is done.

thus locking your card the entire time your pumping gas.
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Nope, it posts a pre-auth which can, depending on the bank, take days to post. It doesnt lock your card.
 
kju1 said:
Nope, it posts a pre-auth which can, depending on the bank, take days to post. It doesnt lock your card.
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true I was trying to avoid all the pre auth talk, I remember news articles where the preauth was causing all sorts of issues since the amount had gotten so high. I think some banks did lock the cards also but I would have to dig the news articles up.
 
Chaos Machine said:
I don't think that's really an issue, energy density on li-ion batteries in cars is great. I would imagine that when you factor in the weight saving from the electric motor and drive train it isn't that much more weight. Also as I said, electric motor torque blows away an ICE. It is more about the wind resistance and extra weight from towing / heavy crap in your truck bed.
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Iron block 6L (GM LQ9) floats right around 550lb range. The motor and inverter from a model S Is 350lb. The (inadequate for a truck) 85kwh battery on the model S is 1323lb.
 
Spidey329 said:
Could just be a credit card. Swipe, charge. Once it's disconnected, it completes the transaction. Like a gas pump.
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Lol.... sounds like you guys haven't actually used any of the electric charging infrastructure. It sounds like you guys think these things don't already exist. Of course there are thousands and thousands of kiosks where you can charge your car with a credit card. Its way beyond the hypothetical stage. If you live in a major city you are probably sitting within a mile or two of one of these kiosks.
 
daglesj said:
Why not just get the plasterboard and lumber delivered instead?
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The wall board might work, but getting lumber delivered pretty much means you get every warped piece of shit left on the rack.

Still don't need a full sized truck for most home owner level stuff. Renting one works, or getting a tow hitch and a small 8' trailer.
 
raz-0 said:
The wall board might work, but getting lumber delivered pretty much means you get every warped piece of shit left on the rack.

Still don't need a full sized truck for most home owner level stuff. Renting one works, or getting a tow hitch and a small 8' trailer.
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Yeah just asked this question once before as to why so many buy a truck for the two times a year they might need to 'haul something'. Whenever I'm in the USA all I see is nothing in the beds of those trucks. Here in the UK you just call the yard and they deliver. But I kid you not I got told "That's Communist!"
 
The bigger issue with Tesla is if they can even actually turn a profit on an electic car...last time I saw, they where losing around $15K on car that starts at $75K or so. Ford and GM make about $1500 per product sold.

Tesla makes a decent/good product and is an impressive company in some reguards, but their business model might not work out too well when the automarket goes through its next down turn, which might be happening sooner then later.

Another thing many people don't know is the $7500 tax rebate will go away once they start making more then 250K cars a year, which might happen once the Model 3 is launched....when its launched.
 
daglesj said:
Yeah just asked this question once before as to why so many buy a truck for the two times a year they might need to 'haul something'. Whenever I'm in the USA all I see is nothing in the beds of those trucks. Here in the UK you just call the yard and they deliver. But I kid you not I got told "That's Communist!"
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Because it is sure nice to take home a large product like a microwave,dish washer, washing machine, etc the same day vs waiting a couple days for someone to deliver it. Or helping someone move, or getting rid of crap in your house at the dump. Your getting it for the future conveance factor. Plus they are part of popular culture here. I've owned nothing but two seat sporty cars (Mustangs), small compacts and have a full size sedan now...and I plan getting a 2020 Bronco because its nice to get lumbar from the Home Depot without worrying about it fitting into your car or getting 10-20 bags of mulch for the yard.

Your car has 4 seats, but if your the only driving it 90% of the time, why do you need all those extra seats?
 
Snowdog said:
Tesla has no bandwidth for another model for the next couple of years
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How do you know this exactly? I mean, are you in the higher-up meetings, or is their entire status and functioning of their business public knowledge?
 
GT98 said:
The bigger issue with Tesla is if they can even actually turn a profit on an electic car...last time I saw, they where losing around $15K on car that starts at $75K or so. Ford and GM make about $1500 per product sold.
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Don't repeat misleading FUD you read somewhere, written by someone with an anti-Tesla agenda.

Tesla is still in early growth mode, the company has been growing at 50%+ per year, for several years. You have to spend a massive amount of money to grow that fast, typically more than you take in.

So it is common for companies in their early growth phase to lose money, for years. This is Normal.

But actual unit profit on Tesla cars is actually quite decent (>20% IIRC). When Telsa stabilizes it's growth, it should be profitable. That growth rate and unit profit is why Tesla Stock is valued so high, despite current operating losses.

This is basically the same kind of Nonsense that claimed Chevy was losing $50K on each Chevy Volt sold:
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/general-motors-loses-nearly-50000-every-time-it-sells-a-chevy-volt/

Or even worse: 1/4 $million in government subsidy for each Volt:
http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/16192
 
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Chaos Machine said:
I don't think that's really an issue, energy density on li-ion batteries in cars is great. I would imagine that when you factor in the weight saving from the electric motor and drive train it isn't that much more weight. Also as I said, electric motor torque blows away an ICE. It is more about the wind resistance and extra weight from towing / heavy crap in your truck bed.
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Being able to put out a peek TQ number means nothing for a truck. As I have already said here, even in their car, they can't tax the motors for longer than a few minutes before it goes into limp mode from over heating. And thats in an unloaded much lighter car, now think about a truck with a load pulling a trailer, they will need to beef up the drivetrain and motor cooling.

GT98 said:
The bigger issue with Tesla is if they can even actually turn a profit on an electic car...last time I saw, they where losing around $15K on car that starts at $75K or so. Ford and GM make about $1500 per product sold.

Tesla makes a decent/good product and is an impressive company in some reguards, but their business model might not work out too well when the automarket goes through its next down turn, which might be happening sooner then later.

Another thing many people don't know is the $7500 tax rebate will go away once they start making more then 250K cars a year, which might happen once the Model 3 is launched....when its launched.
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No they don't. While I am no Tesla fan boy by any means, they do make money on each car, people who state they lose money factor in total cost of the company, including R&D, which is a huge cost to Tesla right now, as they are a young company and are trying to add new models to a line up, once factories, tooling and battery production are in place, operation costs and R&D go down significantly. Early in the game expansion is important as you want to be large enough to make a name and control a good size of the market, this all takes money to do.

Youn said:
How do you know this exactly? I mean, are you in the higher-up meetings, or is their entire status and functioning of their business public knowledge?
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Tesla is new, they don't have the production capacity to support another car, no less R&D for one, and if they did, it would not be in the truck market. The model 3 on it's own has some people questioning if Tesla will be able to keep up with demand, as it stands now, people who have already ordered will be waiting a year after the first model is shipped, assuming demand were to keep up once it is released.
 
Youn said:
How do you know this exactly? I mean, are you in the higher-up meetings, or is their entire status and functioning of their business public knowledge?
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I was actually at the factory last week. I signed an NDA, so I can't really talk about it, but they produce about 2500 cars a week now. A normal car factory that GM or Ford produces normally pumps out about 50 or more units AN HOUR. Will will go up when Model 3 is in production, but a typical automotive plant only building one or two models will build about 300K units a year with 3 shifts going full tilt. Tesla does almost everything at The old NUMMI plant including stamping, so their manufauring footprint is going to be even tighter (other manufactures do stamping off site or at another building on site). I also share in the view that the Model 3 isn't going into production this summer either. If they are going to build more cars they are going to need more manufacturing space.
 
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BlueFireIce said:
No they don't. While I am no Tesla fan boy by any means, they do make money on each car, people who state they lose money factor in total cost of the company, including R&D, which is a huge cost to Tesla right now, as they are a young company and are trying to add new models to a line up, once factories, tooling and battery production are in place, operation costs and R&D go down significantly. Early in the game expansion is important as you want to be large enough to make a name and control a good size of the market, this all takes money to do.
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But basically they are using their stock as an ATM to pay the bills and if they can't make a profit after investors see they aren't finacinally sound, they can't stay in business. They "make" money by selling pollution credits and other things.

IMO Telsa gets bought out by someone or goes out of business after paving the way for everyone else to follow.
 
GT98 said:
But basically they are using their stock as an ATM to pay the bills and if they can't make a profit after investors see they aren't finacinally sound, they can't stay in business. They "make" money by selling pollution credits and other things.

IMO Telsa gets bought out by someone or goes out of business after paving the way for everyone else to follow.
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You don't seem to get it....They are making money. They are EXPANDING and developing new tech. All new companies do this, VERY few have a profitable product like Tesla does, Tesla is actually doing pretty well, as they already know the cars are profitable.
 
daglesj said:
Yeah just asked this question once before as to why so many buy a truck for the two times a year they might need to 'haul something'. Whenever I'm in the USA all I see is nothing in the beds of those trucks. Here in the UK you just call the yard and they deliver. But I kid you not I got told "That's Communist!"
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I wouldnt call it communist. I would just point at my truck and ask you if that looks unused. I assure you its not ;). Two weeks ago it had ~6k lbs in the bed...
 
blkt said:
As much as I would love to enjoy cleaner air in the city, somehow I doubt the manual labor force is going to hop onboard. These trucks need to be cheap. Where is the new battery technology? Too busy boring tunnels and firing off rockets I suppose.
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The trucks do NOT need to be cheap, and in fact trucks are the most profitable platform available at the moment for manufacturers. In fact, most pickups are selling for $40K range, with high cost of ownership due to poor fuel economy.

They do tend to need to be large, have good towing capacity (if for no other reason than consumers demand it for bragging rights), and have good range. That generally makes for an unaerodynamic and heavy vehicle, and needs a lot of power accordingly... which means to electrify it will require a tremendous weight, space, and cost penalty for the batteries.

IMO, the best electrics are aerodynamic lightweight city-car vehicles at present (like the new Smart Fortwo), the exact opposite of a pickup truck.
 
BlueFireIce said:
You don't seem to get it....They are making money. They are EXPANDING and developing new tech. All new companies do this, VERY few have a profitable product like Tesla does, Tesla is actually doing pretty well, as they already know the cars are profitable.
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Except they aren't making money, their gross profits barely cover Selling, General and Administrative expenses. All their R&D is financed by new equity, and capital spending does not directly impact profits and losses.
 
SLee said:
Except they aren't making money, their gross profits barely cover Selling, General and Administrative expenses. All their R&D is financed by new equity, and capital spending does not directly impact profits and losses.
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Tesla Cars generate a 24% unit profit last time I checked. Around here if the unit profit was much more than that, people would claim it's a rip off. You know like evil Apple making 40% unit profit on iPhones. ;)

The automobile industry is capital intensive at a huge scale. No startup car company could possibly finance growth through sales profits, unless they wanted to completely slash growth. It cost almost a billion dollars to bring a new model to market and that is for companies that have been doing it for decades.

It seems you really can't have a Tesla story on here with the Tesla Trolls beating the same dead horse... even when it has nothing to do with the current story, and there were legitimate issues with the current story that actually had something to do with the topic.
 
Snowdog said:
Tesla Cars generate a 24% unit profit last time I checked. Around here if the unit profit was much more than that, people would claim it's a rip off. You know like evil Apple making 40% unit profit on iPhones.
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Tesla has a 20+% gross profit margin, which excludes operating costs like salaries and other things needed to make the business run. Once you account for that, all that profit is essentially wiped out. By comparison a GM may only have a gross margin of 11-12% but it's SG&A expense is only 7%. Much of that difference comes down to Tesla selling direct to customers, so it gets retail pricing. But because it sells direct, then it also pays for the expense of the retail stores and service centers.

It seems you really can't have a Tesla story on here with the Tesla Trolls beating the same dead horse... even when it has nothing to do with the current story, and there were legitimate issues with the current story that actually had something to do with the topic.
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Just like you can't have a Tesla story without fans that tries to show how profitable Tesla is based on its gross profit margins only.
 
SLee said:
GM may only have a gross margin of 11-12% but it's SG&A expense is only 7%. Much of that difference comes down to Tesla selling direct to customers, so it gets retail pricing. But because it sells direct, then it also pays for the expense of the retail stores and service centers.
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Last time I checked GM wasn't a new car company growing at over 50%/year. So the comparison is meaningless.

Just like you can't have a Tesla story without fans that tries to show how profitable Tesla is based on its gross profit margins only.
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I was actually saying that Tesla shouldn't do a pickup truck and even if they did, it would flop. You know, what the damn story is actually about.

That is till the the trolls showed up to derail the thread beating that same old dead horse.
 
If only the laws in the country didn't kill off the ability for them to make small sized pick ups anymore.....

I miss the days when people drove actual reasonable pickups instead of this oversized ones they only sell today.
 
GT98 said:
Because it is sure nice to take home a large product like a microwave,dish washer, washing machine, etc the same day vs waiting a couple days for someone to deliver it. Or helping someone move, or getting rid of crap in your house at the dump. Your getting it for the future conveance factor. Plus they are part of popular culture here. I've owned nothing but two seat sporty cars (Mustangs), small compacts and have a full size sedan now...and I plan getting a 2020 Bronco because its nice to get lumbar from the Home Depot without worrying about it fitting into your car or getting 10-20 bags of mulch for the yard.

Your car has 4 seats, but if your the only driving it 90% of the time, why do you need all those extra seats?
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Actually has two. The other is occupied quite often. ;)
 
kju1 said:
I wouldnt call it communist. I would just point at my truck and ask you if that looks unused. I assure you its not ;). Two weeks ago it had ~6k lbs in the bed...
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Well yours would have been a first! :)
 
Stiler said:
If only the laws in the country didn't kill off the ability for them to make small sized pick ups anymore.....

I miss the days when people drove actual reasonable pickups instead of this oversized ones they only sell today.
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Problems of trucks that actually have to not kill their drivers in a crash or roll over. Made the real reason truly small trucks in the US go away, cost they were bar far cheaper than full size trucks pre 90's.
 
Semantics said:
Problems of trucks that actually have to not kill their drivers in a crash or roll over. Made the real reason truly small trucks in the US go away, cost they were bar far cheaper than full size trucks pre 90's.
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Pickups are less likey to roll than SUVs. More likely to roll than cars though but that is inherent due to the higher center of gravity.

Modern pickups are aiming for neutral static stability and have stability controls that will assist with this. We should start to see a trend of increasing safety on pickups.

That being said one can only do so much with the vehicle. A driver is the major factor in nearly all accidents.
 
Had this discussion a couple years ago with some guys I play poker with: one landscaper, one roofer, and a guy who hangs drywall. All basically had the same type of complaints about prospective EV's that are made here. Low range, not flexible enough, weight penalty, initial cost, and unable to recharge fast enough.

GT98 said:
I plan getting a 2020 Bronco because its nice to get lumbar from the Home Depot without worrying about it fitting into your car
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Last I heard the new bronco will be based on the smaller early version, with virtually no cargo area, not the big pickup based version made until '96. So it won't be made to haul lumbar or have lots of payload. In fact, it looks much like the poser-mobile than a truck, something fancy for those who want a street version of a Jeep. I also figure it will have a hatch, which I hate, because if you keep leaving it open while driving because your load is sticking out past the end of the vehicle, eventually that hatch is going to snap off as it's not designed to be driven like that. It's not like a tailgate. I had a 93 Bronco and a 2008 Expedition. Bronco was way better, and I moved all kinds of stuff with it, lumbar, wallboard, cinderblock, cement & sand bags, sawed up logs, refrigerator, washer/dryers, etc.. But the new one won't be anything like the '93; it'll be a shrunken Expedition, in width as well as length. Here's the new bronco possibillities, both are Jeep-ish: Narrow, smaller, & short, and if they have a back seat, there will be NO hauling capacity unless you basically permanently remove it:
landscape-1456340665-b2.jpg


landscape-1464285572-2020-fordsvt-bronco-2dr-blue.jpeg


Tesla could make it in THIS market (bigger SUV), people who don't use a truck for what a truck is supposed to be; people who simply don't want to drive a minivan but need to people-haul or haul stuff that they don't want to put into a pickup bed. These new Broncos, while historically were trucks, aren't going to be used 'as trucks' 99% of the time. Ford may make them the best off road vehicle you can buy, but like the CJ's, they won't be very handy as 'trucks'.
 
nightfly said:
Had this discussion a couple years ago with some guys I play poker with: one landscaper, one roofer, and a guy who hangs drywall. All basically had the same type of complaints about prospective EV's that are made here. Low range, not flexible enough, weight penalty, initial cost, and unable to recharge fast enough.


Last I heard the new bronco will be based on the smaller early version, with virtually no cargo area, not the big pickup based version made until '96. So it won't be made to haul lumbar or have lots of payload. In fact, it looks much like the poser-mobile than a truck, something fancy for those who want a street version of a Jeep. I also figure it will have a hatch, which I hate, because if you keep leaving it open while driving because your load is sticking out past the end of the vehicle, eventually that hatch is going to snap off as it's not designed to be driven like that. It's not like a tailgate. I had a 93 Bronco and a 2008 Expedition. Bronco was way better, and I moved all kinds of stuff with it, lumbar, wallboard, cinderblock, cement & sand bags, sawed up logs, refrigerator, washer/dryers, etc.. But the new one won't be anything like the '93; it'll be a shrunken Expedition, in width as well as length. Here's the new bronco possibillities, both are Jeep-ish: Narrow, smaller, & short, and if they have a back seat, there will be NO hauling capacity unless you basically permanently remove it:


Tesla could make it in THIS market (bigger SUV), people who don't use a truck for what a truck is supposed to be; people who simply don't want to drive a minivan but need to people-haul or haul stuff that they don't want to put into a pickup bed. These new Broncos, while historically were trucks, aren't going to be used 'as trucks' 99% of the time. Ford may make them the best off road vehicle you can buy, but like the CJ's, they won't be very handy as 'trucks'.
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Where do you get your "lumbars" from and what do you use them for?
 
I think Tesla will have a hard time selling if they push through in the Pickup Truck market. His self-driving cars are very different from the normal trucks and SUVs. Most of these vehicles have heavy-duty body and frame designs. Upgrading the jeep or truck parts and accessories are needed to adjust its capabilities to the offroad conditions. Also, off-road vehicles already have total parts support due to its variety of aftermarket parts.
 
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