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Limp Gawd
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You can chalk this up to one thing: unlimited State chutzpah. Shut up, Citizen, we will tell you when it is okay to have an opinion.
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Man Fined $500 for Writing "I Am an Engineer" in Email to Oregon Engineering Board
- Thread starter Megalith
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It can be a joke sometimes. It's a state thing, not a federal thing. There are some states that have zero exam, if you have enough experience. You can show up with documentation of your work experience at a licensing board, and get your license. You'll still need to meet the minimum requirements for education.
Also..."Industrial Exemption" is built into pretty much every state's engineering laws. So, you don't need to be a licensed engineer to be an engineer. Hell, the English language tells you that. Hence why the word "engineer" is it's own seperate word. With additional words added to explain what kind of engineer.
I'm a system engineer. Prior to that, I was a system implementation engineer. I'm unlicensed, cause I work for the Federal government. There's zero need for me to bother with state licensing. Not that the state of Idaho (my home of record), even have any kind of licensing for the IT field. I couldn't become licensed, even if I wanted to.
So the guy's a Swedish electrical engineer? Hah! They suck. Really. He should be fined, just because. I went to Sweden a few years ago. My wife plugged her hair dryer in and "pffft" it went up in a ball of smoke! Those Swedes and their electrical engineers are a hazard! I think the only reason their whole country hasn't gone up in a ball of fire is that the arctic air cools down the transmission lines...just enough.
I mean, using his engineering background as a crutch to prop up his observations clearly is a hazard to an unsuspecting public. Think of the children.
Let's all be thankful his blatant attempt to misrepresent his skills and knowledge did not get past our Cerberus-like bureaucratic watch dogs, ever alert and ever sniffing for someone who steps out of line. Well done!
Just because I can't be bothered to read the specifics of his egregious violation, remind me again who contracted with him to build or construct or wire or design whatever it is that needed a license which he misrepresented as having?
Every one of the bureaucrats, from the ones who fined him (shouldn't only judges impose fines???), to the ones who implemented the yellow light money making scheme, should be thrown out with loss of pensions. And more, loss of parking privileges. (Like our overlords at Washington National. Grrr.)
(Is sarcasm allowed here?)
I mean, using his engineering background as a crutch to prop up his observations clearly is a hazard to an unsuspecting public. Think of the children.
Let's all be thankful his blatant attempt to misrepresent his skills and knowledge did not get past our Cerberus-like bureaucratic watch dogs, ever alert and ever sniffing for someone who steps out of line. Well done!
Just because I can't be bothered to read the specifics of his egregious violation, remind me again who contracted with him to build or construct or wire or design whatever it is that needed a license which he misrepresented as having?
Every one of the bureaucrats, from the ones who fined him (shouldn't only judges impose fines???), to the ones who implemented the yellow light money making scheme, should be thrown out with loss of pensions. And more, loss of parking privileges. (Like our overlords at Washington National. Grrr.)
(Is sarcasm allowed here?)
I think you can chalk this up to a foreigner not knowing the state requires you to have a license in order to practice in said field.
Most companies these days use the word junior engineer, when they have a degree but are not currently licensed by the state and they practice under a "Senior" engineer who basically approves of their work and is has their P.E.
Kinda sucks to be in that position as a engineer in training, because the Seniors take all the credit for your work.
-Fellow MAE Bachelor
Or scientists do
I do not know what it was like for J Macker in the Nuclear industry but from my experience there is a fair bit of rivalry and bias attitude (not really the right word but close enough) between the engineers and scientists.
Back in the 70s and 80s and slightly different subject I even remember PE (just realised thats CE over here in UK) who fixed printers and monitors and office idiots used to look down their nose at them without realising these guys had some serious education and training behind them, along with being involved building the mainframes and all diagnostics/updates/etc involved, money was really great as well and makes up for those that used to think one was 'just a fixer-maintenance guy'
Italy was an interesting place and not sure if it still stands but back in the 80s a PHd (or whatever equivalent was) in Engineering was perceived as the most prestigious education qualification available and Dottore had more meaning for them than others; may had seemed that way due to people and teams I worked with *shrug*.
I do wonder though if organisations have become easier in terms of membership entry these days, just as an example IEEE used to have a very strong vetting process even for member grade and reading the requirements now seems easier.
Cheers
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Maxx_Power
Limp Gawd
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I don't think the entire PE thing was originated by the Gubmint. That association has tried to pressure every state in the US and spread its influence in the minds of university students for a long time now. They want everyone to believe that you are a true engineer when you pass their certification (which is frankly a joke compared to your actual engineering exams in university). Not everyone has bought into their agenda, as plenty of states in the US and places in Canada, not to mention most of Europe (AFAIK), Asia, etc., do not use their system of "professional" certification. There has been this trend from other groups of self-interested parties that tried (largely unsuccessfully) to get other professionals in the sciences certified as PS (professional scientist), such as professional geologist/biologist/etc.
Maxx_Power
Limp Gawd
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Italians have always looked up to quality engineers ever since the leaning tower of Pisa.
/joke
Any idea how PE is structured for different fields of expertise or even if it does?
Here in UK has it split to make it more specific and can also tie into specific institutions (my path was telecom-communications engineering).
Cheers
DuronBurgerMan
[H]ard|Gawd
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AFAIK, it only applies to certain very specific activities. Software engineers, for example, are not required to be certified in any way.
Yep, also from Alberta. The law and ethics exam for all eligible engineers-in-training is a good way of informing them that you can be disciplined if you are using the titles improperly.
Need to be registered with your professional association to even use a title like an EIT (Engineer in Training) as well as P. Eng
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But you do not loose your title just because you visit the US. Nor would any reasonable Doctor refuse your advice because you didn't take a test in the US.
There's scientists and engineers all over the world that collaborate on projects. They don't go out of their way to fine each other when they give advice.
D
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I live in Portland but hate this communist hipster mecca so much. I'm actively looking at moving my family somewhere else currently you looking at red states. This story doesn't surprise me at all
Texas! You are going to looooove right to work.
This also works in the other direction. My family doctor is moving to Scotland and it took her months to get certified to practice over there. Even though she's been practicing for 2 decades, she wasn't able to just pack up and go to work the next day in Scotland. Some profession's job titles have more meaning than most people think about. This engineer story is no different. I think what really bound him up was where he pitches himself to become a Board member.
On a side note, i had a friend in high school who worked at a gas station who was a petroleum transfer engineer. lol.
Oh indeed they are hard up for cash. They had state police testifying a few years ago that taking away the $10 background check fee for gun purchases and just kicking the check to the FBI (which is what the state police does anyway) would harm the state economy. Oh no, a dozen or so government workers lose their jobs.
Oh, and this is a state that has spent over $200 million on bridge designs and not even get a plan in place. Government engineers, civil/elec or whatever are all constrained by politics and bureacracy. Or they went into government because they couldn't hack it in the real world.
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You don't lose the title, but you can't practice here. There is a major difference there. If Dr. John Smith from London moves to New York. Says fuck it and starts up a medical practice without getting licensed in the USA and then writes the medical board of New York with the line "As a Dr in this state of New York with many patients..." do you expect them to ignore that part? That is the issue they have here. If you read the article, during these discussion back and forth they informed him that he had to be licensed to be a practicing engineer in the state. He said he understood and would agree to their requirement. Only to turn around and ignore it, they then dug into him more and find him to be practicing in the state without license. So just like a foreign doctor in my example. At that point they fined him. Which also happens to be after they informed him they aren't the correct department to contact about the issue and what paperwork needed to be filed out and submitted to correctly get the issue addressed and he continued to ignore that also and harass them about the issue. He was basically kicking a hornets nest for years before he got stung and now is pissed that he got stung.
Think some people just like to have an extreme antigovernment view on everything and want to think that the man is always looking to fuck over somebody. And in some cases they are, but that doesn't mean that every case is that.
How was the man practicing as an engineer? He stated he was an engineer...to support his observations. "Hey, I'm a technical minded fellow, and I know what I'm talking about." In no way did he present himself as desiring to undertake an engineering work, nor did he accept (or bid towards) any type of contract as one. He appended his title to his letter to add credence to his observations. He earned his title. Should a doctor from Nigeria be banned from signing any letter "Dr."? No, he may not be practicing as a doctor, but he earned his title. Same with this guy.
The fine was because the bureaucrats got caught. Can't have that.
Anti-government? Not at all. Just not ready to support (on my back) lazy asses. Fire 90% of government workers: most wouldn't even notice they're gone...
The fine was because the bureaucrats got caught. Can't have that.
Anti-government? Not at all. Just not ready to support (on my back) lazy asses. Fire 90% of government workers: most wouldn't even notice they're gone...
It did not help that in his email to Oregon he said:
email to Oregon said:
That is one reason they hit him, also I doubt they like being being informed or anyone working on such subjects outside of their office/organisation so intended to slap him down and also try to stop him from even volunteering with this investigation and research into this topic to improve upon an aspect missing in the original 1959 paper that it seems quite a few councils/road traffic institutions use for timings.
He was meant to be doing a presentation on this research to Institute of Transportation Engineers in Anaheim, California as well.
TBH I thought most modern traffic-timing patterns are calculated/modelled with modern algorithms on a computer system but maybe they do not take into account slower safe turning speeds people do, or maybe there are older setups out there.
So definitely feels like they were trying to shut him down as it also went beyond the fine.
The article also mentions:
article said:
Sounds like an office/team/dept and also Oregon Engineering Board does not like anyone stepping into their area of "responsibility", although they have taken it too far by the looks of it.
Cheers
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As a Professional Engineer myself, I do get tired of hearing "I'm an engineer" because it seems like everyone is an engineer. But still I think this was handled very poorly. If this guy was actually practicing and profiting and had clients, I could absolutely see why they would hit him with a fine. But if he was sharing his work with other Engineers to review and discuss, I see no harm. If there was actually a flaw and Engineers ignored it, I think THAT should be what is fined because Professional Engineers are supposed to hold public safety in very high regard. The majority of equations and theories that Engineers apply were not developed by Engineers. If an equation is right, then who cares who wrote it?
One of the variables you engineers (professional and otherwise) are glossing over, is the how much credence the bureaucrats give to the "engineered" yellow light time versus how much weight they give to the "revenue" yellow light times. It has been proven that the public/private partnerships which sell and install these yellow light camera systems cut safety to increase profit.
This guy was right...and, as the Russian saying goes, "Every nail that sticks up, gets hammered down."
This guy was right...and, as the Russian saying goes, "Every nail that sticks up, gets hammered down."
You are going based on the title here and not the information in the actual article (or articles if you was to look up others). He works for a living as an engineer since 1992 when he moved to the US. That is where the board stated that their issue came from.
From the letter they sent him.
If you take note of that every last part of what I quoted. They are following up on his claim, however that is completely separate now than his investigation for working as an engineer in the state for over 20 years without being licensed. IE my example of a Dr moving here and opening a practice without a license. This is NOT a case of you called yourself an engineer so fuck you take this fine. Or even that he pointed out an issue because again if you read what I posted he refered this to the wrong department and they gave him the forms needed to file a proper complaint. This is simply a case of an unlicensed professional making it clear the was breaking state laws and then getting his hand slapped for doing so, then everyone jumping in with no idea of the case and taking mob mentality that the man has to be wrong. Because that is what the internet does best.
Sure. If that Nigerian says, "As a doctor, I strenuously oppose the course of treatment for my friend", and the Oregon Medical Board tells me I should stop "using the title of Doctor", I'd tell them to go pound sand. With their head. Up their ass. In a soil compaction, compression engineer way of speaking.
It seems they didn't like his non-compliant complaint. Hey, use our form or we diss you. LOL. Losers. Also, he appended his title. Looking at Paragraph 2, "...indicate you may have engaged in unlicensed engineering work in Oregon." THAT is UNSUBTANTIATED and SEEMS like it reflexively refers to Paragraph 1. E.g., the "engineering work" was looking at the friggin' yellow lights. Oh, and he didn't stop complaining. And he didn't use the right form. And he called himself an engineer.
I'd fire the board, put 'em on criminal trial for...something...and then let 'em get sued in civil court. Bureaucrats should not be insulated from their constituents.
Now, did the Swede solicit anyone for business by representing himself as a licensed engineer? We don't know, and that letter doesn't say. To me, it implies what I wrote: they got pissed at him and threw the book. I hope it bounces back and gives them all a bloody nose. (I want his lawsuit to succeed. They fire the ass-hats, name a street after him (with flashing yellow lights at the intersection), and have to bestow the honorific of "Certified Professional Engineer".)
It seems they didn't like his non-compliant complaint. Hey, use our form or we diss you. LOL. Losers. Also, he appended his title. Looking at Paragraph 2, "...indicate you may have engaged in unlicensed engineering work in Oregon." THAT is UNSUBTANTIATED and SEEMS like it reflexively refers to Paragraph 1. E.g., the "engineering work" was looking at the friggin' yellow lights. Oh, and he didn't stop complaining. And he didn't use the right form. And he called himself an engineer.
I'd fire the board, put 'em on criminal trial for...something...and then let 'em get sued in civil court. Bureaucrats should not be insulated from their constituents.
Now, did the Swede solicit anyone for business by representing himself as a licensed engineer? We don't know, and that letter doesn't say. To me, it implies what I wrote: they got pissed at him and threw the book. I hope it bounces back and gives them all a bloody nose. (I want his lawsuit to succeed. They fire the ass-hats, name a street after him (with flashing yellow lights at the intersection), and have to bestow the honorific of "Certified Professional Engineer".)
Getting a degree in engineering for an ABET accredited institution is usually enough to call one's self "Engineer". Most people even PhD engineers do not get any licensing because outside of a small fraction of engineers no one needs it.
JayteeBates
[H]ard|Poof
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PE is great and all but not all Engineers are PE's.
The piece of paper on my wall, above my computer states Bachelor of Engineering. There is a difference between a qualification and selling your wares. In the case in question he was not selling anything rather he than stating his qualification in an abbreviated form . A lot of fuss by a state entity that has been caught out making money on false safety. Were I live our state government is hooked on speed cameras or "Safety Cameras' as they like to call them. They budget for fines in the state finances. Conflict of interest.
Meanwhile there is an entity masquerading as a God in the state of Oregon and operating without a licence..... Even has operating manuals published and staff pushing its agenda.
From my understanding for Canada, it is a requirement if you want to be working in your field to be a P.Eng (I believe they give you about 7-9 years total as an EIT), stamping or not. Ultimately you will need to be a P.Eng to keep practicing in your field.
I am not sure about Canada. But in the US outside of Civil Engineering. The majority of Engineers do not work in a field/industry that requires a PE. Out of all of my professors in school only 3 in the EE dept have their PE and all of them have year of experience in their fields.
And not to offend but I bet if Canada had more non infrastructure/public works type engineering people would not require it as much either. But I hear a lot of Canadian engineers who want to work on fun stuff come down here.
Grahamkracka
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Oh jesus christ. You are the kind of PE that makes the rest of us look bad you pretentious prick. Some overly broad statements you are making here. First of all, a PE is only relevant in a few fields of engineering. Civil, HVAC, Nuclear, and EE's working in power come to mind. Most ME's don't need one, and the overwhelming vast majority of my fellow AEs don't need them either. Hell, I don't even make use of my status as a PE. I did it because I could and the company paid for it. This why most AEs that become a PE do so anyway...as a status symbol and not any actual need for career progression. You gonna say the people who engineer jet engines, rockets, satellites, etc are NOT engineers? Also, the FE exam is a joke and the PE wasn't that terrible if you take the time to study. I passed both on the first try and was never in doubt. Get over yourself.
Grahamkracka, Aerospace P.E. (Thermal and Fluids Systems)
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