Man Fined $500 for Writing "I Am an Engineer" in Email to Oregon Engineering Board

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Gasaraki_ said:
And the state of Oregon is going to know that how? And how is being an engineer in Sweden matter in the US? Should the state listen to all people who claim they are an engineer from another country? Should they listen to an "engineer" from Togo vs an "engineer" from France?
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They could start by asking him lol. That would be a fantastic start.

And yes, yes they should. Engineers in 1st world countries tend to be held to a high standard.

And bro, this isn't about building a skyscraper or a a 20 mile bridge. It's for fucking traffic lights. His credentials are more than enough to make the case he's making, and to say "lol I'm not gonna listen to u b/c ur engineering creds aren't state licensed so here's a 500 dollar fine" is a government power play that says "stop calling us out on our bullshit, we're not going to listen to you unless you force us to in court."
 
So... use Network Engineers need to be licensed in which states? Do we need a Gubmint sanctioned, no lube rim job from them too? This crap is getting ridiculous!
 
kledar586 said:
seems like they just fined him cause they didn't like being called out. I guess he was technically in violation but is that really the purpose of that law? If he was taking clients and selling his services without a license I can understand but this isn't what happened here.
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Yes, they did.

The intent is likely consumer protection, so that you don't have someone calling themselves a "certified professional" with the credentials that entails, when they really aren't. Like a "doctor" or "lawyer" calling himself one when he has no license to practice. Again, I think you can call yourself an engineer, but I'm guessing he wrote Engineer and touted his credentials, so that annoyed someone, they checked, and were like "fuck this Holiday Express Inn guy, act like a bitch get treated like a bitch".
 
My degrees say Master of Science and Bachelor's of Science -- do I get to call myself a scientist? My field of study was actually computer science but I'm not a scientist. My profession is currently security engineer/network engineer but I guess I can't say that in Oregon.
 
Simmonz said:
What I find interesting is that the government isn't attacking the guys findings but the capitalization of a letter. Personally I don't care about a persons background if what they are saying is correct. The fact that he is an engineer but not licsensed in Oregon is an afterthought so long as what he is saying is correct. Attack the argument not the man but something tells me they are unable to find holes in his findings.
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This whole thing is a textbook case of Ad Hominem. Attacking the person, not the argument... And doing so in ludicrous fashion.

The idea that a man should get fined for saying he is an engineer (capitalization irrelevant), when he has an actual engineering degree, is stupid and absurd. It's nitpicking of the highest order, as if these folks sat in a room and discussed arcane bureaucratic regulations in order to find a way to screw this man.
 
The man is an engineer, even if an electrical one. And even if he wasn't, levying such fines for the purpose of silencing and intimidating the public should be answered with jail time for the perpetrators, imo.

Those who actually think what the board members did is okay shouldn't be allowed anywhere near power over other human beings.
 
The guy in question IS a degreed engineer (EE).
But realistically and practically that isn't the question at all.
He didn't misrepresent himself or the facts.
He wasn't certifying anything (like the PEs who certify building design to satisfy building code).

This guy was merely representing the facts that show the street lights to be FUBAR'd in Oregon. (no doubt racking up boucoup fine revenue)

The state tried to shut him down by fining him.....now they have to go to court.
 
westrock2000 said:
My employer several years ago decided to retitle the 1000's of maintainence workers from "equipment engineers" to "equipment technicians" because there was fear of fines and lawsuits if a technician referenced themself as an engineer outside the company.

BTW, where does Bill Nye fit in with all this??
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I once worked for a company that did this, but it made complete sense. There were hundreds of people that weren't engineers by license, education, or training.. but they were titled as engineers. It created a weird landscape when they were mixed with the folks that actually were engineers. Of course there was a huge backlash, but that aspect never made any sense. It simply corrected something that had been wrong for some time.
 
I'm pretty sure the board had a dilemma; whether or not they sent the notice, they ran the risk of the public discovering how useless such a board is, particularly in this example.
 
State Engineering credentials are only worth it for civil, architectural, mechanical (for HVAC and simple things), and electrical engineering anyways.

All the smartest Engineers are doing work for aerospace, defense, large software corporations, etc.

What those idiots on the board forget to realize, is that this is for professional work. Just because you CAN doing engineering work, doesn't mean anything. It must be connected to a real project.
 
Wow. So... if he didn't say he was an engineer he'd be okay and they'd review his maths right? I'm curious if that would have happened. Or if it would have been dismissed outright just because he didn't show that he knew what he was talking about (regardless and without even really looking at his information)?

Sounds like they did a fair amount of work to fine somebody $500.00.
 
andrewaggb said:
I'm from Alberta and the engineer title works basically the same way. Students are engineers in training and members of apega. Professionals pay membership dues to the organization and have to meet some requirements to use the title engineer both personally or in a company name. You essentially have to apprentice under a professional engineer for 4 years (similar to trades).

I'm a software developer and went off on my own after university (didn't work under a PEng) so I'm not eligible to use the term engineer when describing myself even though I have a degree in computer engineering and have worked in the industry my whole career. Such is life.

The whole thing is just bad PR though so on the one hand I'm surprised they bothered but on the other hand if they don't aggressively and publicly enforce their ownership of the term it loses it's value.
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Yeah I joined IEEE after my education and 1st training-working experience and ended up as member in reasonable time and also another organisation.
As you say I think it is or was standard practice.
BTW shouldn't you be able to join IEEE with your background?
I appreciate it has multiple levels and ideally you want member or senior member grade, and probably was more of interest to you earlier on in your career than now.

Cheers
 
gglenn said:
I'm not an engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
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You were late with that joke

Ducman69 said:
Yes, they did.

The intent is likely consumer protection, so that you don't have someone calling themselves a "certified professional" with the credentials that entails, when they really aren't. Like a "doctor" or "lawyer" calling himself one when he has no license to practice. Again, I think you can call yourself an engineer, but I'm guessing he wrote Engineer and touted his credentials, so that annoyed someone, they checked, and were like "fuck this Holiday Express Inn guy, act like a bitch get treated like a bitch".
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Engineer.jpg


Try telling this guy he isn't an Engineer.
 
My wife and I are both EE. In her industry (power) the P.E. makes or breaks her career. I'm electronics and I cannot name a P.E. I work with and I'm employed by a Mega Corp. I know there are States that require you to pass that (mostly)worthless test to legally call yourself an engineer. My wife had to call herself an engineer in training till she got her PE cause her company did work in Texas.
 
jpm100 said:
If you have faith in experts, you are a fool.

At the same time most places use the Professional Engineer title (signature & stamp) approach for critical items. And in reality the PEng is often a scapegoat for companies to squirm out of product liability. As long as a PEng. can be made the fall guy, you will be less safe. Not more safe.
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My wife carries a giant insurance policy for her PE. Engineers PE or not F up a lot.
 
cyclone3d said:
Bill Nye is NOT a scientist, but for some reason has this show on TV that make a lot of people think he is.

Then again, a large number of "scientists" do not actually practice real science and only parrot what they were brainwashed with in college.
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He's not a scientist, but he is a mechanical engineer! :p
 
How could there be anybody out there that agrees with the fine?

He didn't misrepresent himself for the love of god. He used the "I'm an engineer" as a means to send his message properly. As in "traffic lights are wrong, and I know this because of my professional background (I'm an engineer)".

Whoever found such a convoluted bullshit answer should definitely be fired. So, you send a letter trying to help but get fined in the process. Nice.
 
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Methos said:
How do you figure Bill Nye isn't a scientist?

Scientist: : a person learned in science and especially natural science : a scientific investigator

From wiki:

"Nye began his career as a mechanical engineer for Boeing Corporation in Seattle, where he invented a hydraulic resonance suppressor tube used on 747 airplanes."

That seems science-y to me.

It is possible he could be a scientist, an educator, and an entertainer all at the same time.
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Well for one, he has no degree in natural science. Being an engineer and a scientist are pretty different fields of expertise, each having even more specialized fields.

I can do "scienc-y" things too. Does that automagically make me a scientist?

Sure he has a cool kids show, but a lot of what he spouts off is just plain wrong.
 
Methos said:
How do you figure Bill Nye isn't a scientist?

Scientist: : a person learned in science and especially natural science : a scientific investigator

From wiki:

"Nye began his career as a mechanical engineer for Boeing Corporation in Seattle, where he invented a hydraulic resonance suppressor tube used on 747 airplanes."

That seems science-y to me.

It is possible he could be a scientist, an educator, and an entertainer all at the same time.
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But he doesn't have a master's degree in science, like Dr. Science.

ask_dr_science.jpg
 
they lost my interest in the matter and the argument with the word "Oregon"

oh...and Bill Nye is blithering idiot...and not that good Rainman kind of idiot
 
Gasaraki_ said:
And the state of Oregon is going to know that how? And how is being an engineer in Sweden matter in the US? Should the state listen to all people who claim they are an engineer from another country? Should they listen to an "engineer" from Togo vs an "engineer" from France?
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Something something ignorance is not an excuse.
 
Scizyr said:
If you do the work of an engineer or have a job title of engineer, you are an engineer.
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With the "creative language" of PC culture though, Jose mowing your lawn is a landscaping engineer, Bob picking up your trash is a sanitation engineer, and in college my lowly title of fluffer would probably be exalted to excitation engineer or something, so that doesn't really work.
 
Derfman said:
Dear state of Oregon,

Suck my balls.

Sincerely,
Someone who's glad they don't live in Oregon
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That just tells me that you don't give a shit about the training of the persons required to sign off on the design of structural design of your house.
Nor do you seem to care about the training & credentials of people who design bridges or elevators.

There are THOUSANDS of types of jobs that require a licensed engineer. Do you think an unlicensed Doctor should be allowed to practice medicine too?

Do you really think it's okay an unlicensed person to call themselves an "engineer"?

US companies have diluted the meaning and credibility of the Engineering profession as a whole.
Companies add the word "Engineer" to a job title to make it sound good and make it sound like you're knowledgeable.

If you're not a licensed engineer, then you're NOT an engineer. You're a wannabe. It's analogous to being a Doctor. Don't call yourself one if you didn't pass the state licensing board.
Any company which uses the word "Engineer" in the position title should NOT be unless the candidate is either a licensed PE, or is an "Engineer-in-Training" and has passed the state's exam.

Becoming a licensed PE is not a joke. It takes years of experience, an accredited degree, recommendations from other licensed engineers about the quality of your work and your ethics and a nasty exam (minimum 8 hours).
The failure rate is commonly 50% for the PE exam (depends on the discipline).

This man was in the wrong. He should not have spat in the face of the Oregon State Engineering Board. Not only did refer to himself as an engineer, but he claims that Civil Engineers for the City of Beaverton were "misapplying engineering practices". Then, he has the audacity to say:

If you are looking for a Board member I might be interested since I’m already doing this kind of work and it would be nice to get paid. My Swedish engineering degree is in electronics and I’m an expert in motional feedback (displacement, velocity and acceleration feedback) of powered speakers which includes the full understanding of motion of an objectsuch as a loudspeaker cone (or a vehicle stopping or traveling through an intersection as in ORS811.260(4))
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What a joke. An engineering degree in electronics does NOT provide an equivalent level of education for newtonian physics as a Civil Engineering degree. Wave motion != car velocity. This man is an idiot if he thinks that his knowledge of speaker design makes him an expert with tire friction and public safety.


Derf, have some respect. There are many licensed engineers out there who work hard and actually care about the safety of the public.


Unter Dog said:
My wife and I are both EE. In her industry (power) the P.E. makes or breaks her career. I'm electronics and I cannot name a P.E. I work with and I'm employed by a Mega Corp. I know there are States that require you to pass that (mostly)worthless test to legally call yourself an engineer. My wife had to call herself an engineer in training till she got her PE cause her company did work in Texas.
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I wouldn't call it a "(mostly) worthless test", but hey, what do I know?
Hell, I've seen some pretty smart people fail the PE exam multiple times. Maybe they're just bad test-takers, maybe it's the stress. And maybe, just maybe, the test wasn't a cake walk.

Sincerely,
J Macker, Nuclear P.E.
 
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jfreund said:
This is more like a licensed attorney in one state sending a letter into another state and getting fined for it.
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Actually it would be more like a licensed attorney in the state of New York moving to Texas, opening a practice and then sending somebody in another state a letter without ever having passed the bar in the state of Texas and the state of Texas telling him that he isn't licensed to practice law in that state. This guy moved from Sweden to the state of Oregon in the USA. While living there he has been practicing as an electrical engineer without the proper license. Big difference between that and living in Sweden and sending a letter to the state.


Gasaraki_ said:
And the state of Oregon is going to know that how? And how is being an engineer in Sweden matter in the US? Should the state listen to all people who claim they are an engineer from another country? Should they listen to an "engineer" from Togo vs an "engineer" from France?
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It has nothing to do with who they should or should not listen to. It has to do with this guy just outing himself for practicing a profession in their state that requires you to be licensed without having such a license. Think of it more like a drug dealer calling the cops to report that their meth lab was just broken into and half their supply was stolen along with other items. When they get arrested you don't claim that the cops shouldn't have arrested a guy for reporting a crime. You wonder what kind of dumb ass calls the cops and states that he is committing a crime. That is basically what happen here. This guy wrote a letter to the government telling them that I am an unlicensed engineer and I noticed you are doing this wrong. Everything he said could be 100% sure, but the fact that he outed himself for not following state requirements is a different issue.
 
bobzdar said:
Honestly, I'd go to court on that (and he has) and at least have my say before I paid the $500, it's ridiculous, especially if he works for a company and falls under 'industrial exemption' and did not solicit business from the state. There should be plenty of arguments as he's not asking for compensation or to be hired to do engineering work for the state or claiming (at least from what I saw) to be a PE.
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Um... read the correspondence. He DID solicit to work for the Oregon State Engineering Board.

If you are looking for a Board member I might be interested since I’m already doing this kind of work and it would be nice to get paid.
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I've actually had an idea on how to solve this problem for a while. It solves two problems. Citizens know what to expect from an intersection. And the city can't just arbitrarily change the timing of the light to trap people.

But I'm not a licensed engineer, so I keep this to myself and avoid eye contact.

6zyW2zj.jpg
 
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck whether it pays its "dues" or not. This is what's wrong with society. You have great minds out there that can can exceed the accepted standards of what an "engineer" is but can't be considered one because he didn't pay the "title" tax. All due respect for those out there who went through the process but if you can prove the level of intelligence required for the title upon challenge, then your an engineer. And while we're on the topic, I don't respect this type of system because you can pay your way to the title of your choosing without knowing a lick about that engineering discipline.
 
In case people don't know this, being a doctor in another country does not give you the right to practice medicine in the USA without passing more test to be licensed to do so in the USA.
 
FrozenSteel said:
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck whether it pays its "dues" or not. This is what's wrong with society. You have great minds out there that can can exceed the accepted standards of what an "engineer" is but can't be considered one because he didn't pay the "title" tax. All due respect for those out there who went through the process but if you can prove the level of intelligence required for the title upon challenge, then your an engineer. And while we're on the topic, I don't respect this type of system because you can pay your way to the title of your choosing without knowing a lick about that engineering discipline.
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No, you cannot "pay your way to the title" of being an engineer. I invite you to go lookup the requirements to become a licensed engineer in your state. Most states require an exam administrated by NCEES.
They have no qualms in failing people who paid to take the test. You have to have some brains to pass, ergo, one cannot simply "pay your way" to get the title.
 
FrozenSteel said:
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck whether it pays its "dues" or not. This is what's wrong with society. You have great minds out there that can can exceed the accepted standards of what an "engineer" is but can't be considered one because he didn't pay the "title" tax. All due respect for those out there who went through the process but if you can prove the level of intelligence required for the title upon challenge, then your an engineer. And while we're on the topic, I don't respect this type of system because you can pay your way to the title of your choosing without knowing a lick about that engineering discipline.
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It has more to do with showing that you understand the laws and regulations. Just because you can wire up some outlets or a light switch in a house doesn't mean that you understand all the local codes and that you follow them. Same as building codes. A few years back around my area there was an unlicensed company that was doing construction and electrical work for cheap. Took a few years and just about every house they touched either had some part of it fall apart or in the case of a few of them the wiring so was bad it caught fire and burned the house down. The "dues" are to show that you have passed whatever the local requirement is for that profession. Doesn't matter if you are a plumber, electrician or some type of engineer.
 
I think you can chalk this up to a foreigner not knowing the state requires you to have a license in order to practice in said field.

Most companies these days use the word junior engineer, when they have a degree but are not currently licensed by the state and they practice under a "Senior" engineer who basically approves of their work and is has their P.E.

Kinda sucks to be in that position as a engineer in training, because the Seniors take all the credit for your work.

-Fellow MAE Bachelor :)
 
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