Intel Crosses an Unacceptable Ethical Line

cageymaru

Fully [H]
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Charlie Demerjian at Semiaccurate has an editorial posted where he questions Intel's ethics in regards to their recent P4800X enterprise SSD and the M.2 Xpoint based consumer Optane Memory announcement webcast. It seems that Intel put out a briefing with a slide deck, data points, and fine print showing real world testing of their new product performing better than it really was capable of. After the webcast the slide deck was amended to hide the outlandish performance numbers by selectively removing those slides from the release slide deck. When questioned as to why, Intel dodged the answer until Charlie was finally told that it was done intentionally. Here is a quote from the editorial in his words, "A later phone call with other Intel personnel confirmed that the removal was intentional. Again, completely unacceptable with intent to mislead."

The original deck had 50+ slides detailing performance and the press release deck only had 31. The editorial includes data from some of the omitted slides that show ambiguous testing where the conditions of the test aren't fully known. Or even worse; testing of products in a manner that would never have been a real world situation. Then Intel skipped testing their new product against a consumer grade NAND SSD for fear of it painting their product in a bad light. Instead they created scenarios such as Windows 10 Kaby Lake systems with 4GB of ram outfitted with a mechanical drive going against the P4800X SSD. Then Intel proclaimed their Optane product performance multitudes faster than the competition. By hiding the slides and videos from the presentation, the tech press can only go on memory when writing articles about the product. Charlie implies that it is deceitful and a PR stunt to mislead.

This editorial on Semiaccurate is a must read as it contains many details and some of the missing slides! How do you feel when corporations intentionally mislead their customers and the tech press? Are we just used to it? I think it was sleazy to do so in such a manner as to use the tech press to push your deceitful numbers and dubious testing methodology. Other corporations have done this in the past and it's never okay. Again this is an editorial that deserves a good reading!

What did Intel do? They put out a briefing with lots of slides, data points, and fine print in the briefing. These gave the impression that the products were far better and more impressive than they were. When the slides were released, several key ones on the P4800X were absent, including almost every one that had real world non-synthetic test results. Worse yet on the M.2 SSD slides, over half were missing including every single one that contained testing data, configurations, and information necessary to back up the claims made in the webcast. This is unacceptable behavior in the best of circumstances.

Moving on, numerically backwards, to the P4800X slides we have the one above, also pulled. It may look innocuous but to legal it probably isn’t. Slides that state benefits without backing data are usually forbidden because it invites lawsuits. Here Intel made three distinct statements for the P4800X and didn’t back them up. Pulling it was probably right but presenting it to the press, making those claims, and then pulling the slides was probably intended to make the press write the claims ‘in their own words’. This is what we called the sleaziest of PR tactics, trying to get the press to write things you know you can’t legally say or claim. Unethical in the extreme.
 
I was wondering about the power cycles but then I remembered it's windows lol.
 
What? Are you saying that they are misleading the public by removing the outlandish slides to the press? Why would that be misleading? Obviously they knew it was outlandish and they removed it from the presentation...

So you want to see lies?
 
Intel has been doing this for years!!! (since 1999 that I know of)

Intel has been using farce info and trying to show potential ROI and cost savings of upgrades.
It is not unknown that people spend 20-40 hours a year waiting on computers over 3 years old.
Doing the same with technologies that are not of similar generations is easier to fudge. They pick and choose benchmarks to highlight when presenting data.
 
Wait, wut? I thought the golden boys and girls at Intel were the untouchable angels of the computer world? :confused: My entire universe is collapsing... :drowning:

1/2 /s
 
I would say they're doing an Intel. Cause I can't think of a situation when AMD did this.
If Intel keep doing it I'll accept your premise.
As much as I would like to join the rag on AMD using highly, highly selected performance numbers in the past, I honestly can't recall when they flat out lied or when they removed data slides like Intel have just done.
 
Charlie is a really smart guy but sometimes I think he is either wearing a tinfoil hat and/or is not holding AMD to the same ethical requirements. He's obviously pro AMD (which is fine), but is always quiet about what they are doing wrong.

If you truly want to be respected you need to state just the facts and contrast that to others in the same industry. Allow users to make up their own minds based on the evidence. Don't lead them down a path because that's when you lose integrity.
 
I will agree that AMD hype on the RX480 and bulldozer was pretty bad -- but i can see the OP's point with intel not releasing anything worth upgrading since sandy bridge. Going from core 2 duo to nehalem was huge, and again to sandy bridge. Then ivy, haswell, etc *yawn*
 
Charlie is a really smart guy but sometimes I think he is either wearing a tinfoil hat and/or is not holding AMD to the same ethical requirements. He's obviously pro AMD (which is fine), but is always quiet about what they are doing wrong.

If you truly want to be respected you need to state just the facts and contrast that to others in the same industry. Allow users to make up their own minds based on the evidence. Don't lead them down a path because that's when you lose integrity.

I was about to say this. Charlie is very very VERY pro AMD. He's been predicting the demise of Nvidia for about 10 years now. Every year he comes up with something "shady" that intel and NV are doing that will destroy them in the minds of consumers forever, meanwhile his reviews of AMD products are always glowing and quite nauseating to read.

Take his articles with a grain of salt.
 
Why are people acting surprised? Intel and NVidia both have had misleading and dishonest marketing, and predatory business practices for years! This isn't anything new.

When people bring up AMD I'll conceed one point. AMD has time and time again overestimated the performance of their products. However this is far from the sins of Intel and Nvidia that consumers and businesses have been hurt by for years.
 
So wait. Is Charlie complaining about not being able to use
As much as I would like to join the rag on AMD using highly, highly selected performance numbers in the past, I honestly can't recall when they flat out lied or when they removed data slides like Intel have just done.

Because they've probably had more practice at removing slides before it's sent to the press.
 
Nothing new from Intel or pretty much any company out there. Do you really think they are going to hold a press conference showing their product doesn't perform as well as the competition? This is why you ignore corporate presentations and wait for actual real world reviews. Honestly the press should just ignore these events, don't go to them and don't report about them. But until that happens nothing is going to change.
 
i just love the bankruptcy of some blue/green fanboys, you post an article about unethical behavior to have a discussion about it, you end up with a systematic deflection to AMD, and you gotta love how vague the deflections are, like calling someone a criminal because he murdered someone to a deflection about someone else being a criminal, and what did he do ? well stole a snickers bar, the point is they are both criminals...
that doesn't help the topic in any shape or form, nor advance the discussion, completly unrelated, bankrupt minds.
if you believe AMD does even more unethical crap than blue and green, make a research stack up on proofs, and post it on reddit then open a thread, or send you research to outlets, since you think all of them a biased and all of them hide the criminal and unethical behavior of AMD...
 
i just love the bankruptcy of some blue/green fanboys, you post an article about unethical behavior to have a discussion about it, you end up with a systematic deflection to AMD, and you gotta love how vague the deflections are, like calling someone a criminal because he murdered someone to a deflection about someone else being a criminal, and what did he do ? well stole a snickers bar, the point is they are both criminals...
that doesn't help the topic in any shape or form, nor advance the discussion, completly unrelated, bankrupt minds.
if you believe AMD does even more unethical crap than blue and green, make a research stack up on proofs, and post it on reddit then open a thread, or send you research to outlets, since you think all of them a biased and all of them hide the criminal and unethical behavior of AMD...
I dont give a flying f how this annoys you.
AMD have given so much bs for years that I want to express my disgust.
At least Intel and NVidia release products I would buy.
AMD have some way to go before I trust them and possibly even further making a product I want.

I'm not condoning what Intel have done, they deserve tons of flak.
Lets see where it leads.
 
LTT video demonstrating exactly what stunt Intel pulled here - comparing a HDD machine against the same one with Optane as a cache drive (repetitive tasks) while omitting the performance numbers for the same machine with a regular SSD (be it SATA or NVMe)




Ofc it's on LTT - where else can you find so many half baked things tech related camoflaged as information or review.
 
i just love the bankruptcy of some blue/green fanboys, you post an article about unethical behavior to have a discussion about it, you end up with a systematic deflection to AMD, and you gotta love how vague the deflections are, like calling someone a criminal because he murdered someone to a deflection about someone else being a criminal, and what did he do ? well stole a snickers bar, the point is they are both criminals...
that doesn't help the topic in any shape or form, nor advance the discussion, completly unrelated, bankrupt minds.
if you believe AMD does even more unethical crap than blue and green, make a research stack up on proofs, and post it on reddit then open a thread, or send you research to outlets, since you think all of them a biased and all of them hide the criminal and unethical behavior of AMD...
The point is, that they've ALL done it at one point or another(some more frequently than others) which is why we wait for independent testing.
 
It's entirely possible that intels engineers said, "Yes if we can overcome problem x, y, z so that memory reads and writes are A fast. So marketing ran with that. But as things evolved writing a memory controller that did that like a RAID array turned out more complex than they anticipated along with other limitations that made it cost prohibitive.

Marketing departments always make promises then blame the engineers when things don't work as planned.
 
Ha ha, so THIS is the big ethical breach of Intel. It's like tech journalists forget in the past they had price fixing, predatory business practices, sold parts below cost in exchange for vendors agreeing NOT to buy from AMD, the list goes on and they broke business laws in USA, Europe, Japan, and South Korea. But oh my god, they gamed their benchmarks, such a breach of ethics!

Not that I'm defending them doing that, but seriously, the whole damn industry does that, has for decades. This is why you have to have 3rd party reviewers, you can't trust company-posted benchmarks at all.
 
BFD, a company lying about performance. Every major company from tech to aviation to cars lies to you.

If a consumer purchases a PC product based on the manufacturers stated performance then they get what they deserve. You always wait for independent detailed reviews from trusted sources.

This is just like AMD "lying" about Bulldozer "cores" and K10's power usage. It doesn't fucking matter. Its about real world performance.

Manufacturers performance slides are right up there on the trust level with Reddit/youtube user reviews and AMD Roys twitter.
 
You mean the best selling card.
I cried foul too but it was still a great card for the price.
What exactly does "best selling" have to do with anything? You were pretty quick to jump down AMD's throat yet seem perfectly willing to give Nvidia a free pass simply because the 970 turned out to be popular.
 
Does it really matter? Once they actually come out to market, the testers would see that it's a shit show and they'd get really bad press about it.
The only thing they're doing is trying to trick investors before it comes to market, which may be a crime in of itself.
 
Optane in its current form is a turd. Not bad technology but not ripe for consumption either. Who runs HDD only in a Z270 system with KL CPUs?

This was cute the last time around the did the caching buffer, Z68 chipset IIRC, and that turned out a turd in a time when few people had SSDs compared to today.

So I guess a few folks at Intel have their necks on the line, so I'm not surprised at all about these slides.
 
Give them a break, they don't make CPU's with stuff from Republic of Congo anymore. Don't these "conflict free" CPU's allow for some moral self licensing?

Ahhh, you're probably right.
 
I would say they're doing an Intel. Cause I can't think of a situation when AMD did this.

Bulldozer? Or was that just some random reviews spouting a bunch of BS?

Honestly, this sounded meh from the start, at least for consumers. I've noticed the more hype there is, the shittier the product usually ends up being, hence why AMD keeps getting dragged in these discussions. They are the kings of hype at this point.
 
What exactly does "best selling" have to do with anything? You were pretty quick to jump down AMD's throat yet seem perfectly willing to give Nvidia a free pass simply because the 970 turned out to be popular.
Reading isnt your strong suit.
Probably a good thing when you want to follow AMD.
 
Not even trying to be sneaky about it. It's sleezy.

But, that's why people come to [H] for the reviews. You get an honest, no BS review. If I were to go off manufacturers claims, I'd have a 13" cock right now.

I don't trust manufacturers claims. They do this kind of stuff. They'll put a nice new V8 car against another "muscle car". A V6 Camaro or something. Or the graph will show a huge improvement until you look at the axis and they aren't at 0. They are at 70, and there is a 1.2 FPS difference but it looks huge according to the graph.

The intentionally misled by removing those slides. That's fucked up and a bit more than just my examples above. So, that's a bit more shitty. I'm just not that upset about it. I wouldn't put too much faith in it anyway. Not until it got into the hands of Kyle, or Anandtech, or other reputable site that isn't going to fall for the fluff the manufacturer pushes.
 
Not even trying to be sneaky about it. It's sleezy.

But, that's why people come to [H] for the reviews. You get an honest, no BS review. If I were to go off manufacturers claims, I'd have a 13" cock right now.

I don't trust manufacturers claims. They do this kind of stuff. They'll put a nice new V8 car against another "muscle car". A V6 Camaro or something. Or the graph will show a huge improvement until you look at the axis and they aren't at 0. They are at 70, and there is a 1.2 FPS difference but it looks huge according to the graph.

The intentionally misled by removing those slides. That's fucked up and a bit more than just my examples above. So, that's a bit more shitty. I'm just not that upset about it. I wouldn't put too much faith in it anyway. Not until it got into the hands of Kyle, or Anandtech, or other reputable site that isn't going to fall for the fluff the manufacturer pushes.

Yup. Kyle has been pushing for honest truth as best as he knows it for quite some time.
 
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