Bad News for Microsoft: Windows 10 Loses Market Share Again

NoOther said:
And look at the price of many laptops with far fewer features and portability. Again, nothing to see here but your own personal misplaced outrage.
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The reality is it's worth about $500.00 less, for that price they might actually sell.
 
Best Buy 2 in 1 laptops:

pWbTLIG.png
 
BulletDust said:
Great! You finally agree! There are 2 in 1 laptops!

Hence they are not marketed as a truly mobile device like a tablet or mobile handset, so it's clever marketing claiming that the 2 in 1 market is growing in relation to Android and iOS when a 2 in 1 laptop is a different market.
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The point of a 2 in 1 is to function as two kinds of devices thus they can increase mobility by eliminating the need to carry two devices.
 
heatlesssun said:
It certainly is the manufactured kind of rage. There are now more choices in form factors in PCs than ever across a wide price spectrum. Don't want or need a 2 in 1, don't buy one.
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He is just upset because reality does not mesh with his limited view of things. He has to blame Microsoft for whatever happens in the PC market for whatever reason. Even though reality shows that Microsoft's move to the Surface Pro and Surface Book have made a huge impact, especially in comparison with the Apple iPad and the Apple MacBook, which is what they are really competing with respectively.

People are just generally blinded by their hate for something and have to go through great lengths and arguments and trying to assert their own boundaries to try and prove their narrative, no matter how feeble it is.
 
NoOther said:
He is just upset because reality does not mesh with his limited view of things. He has to blame Microsoft for whatever happens in the PC market for whatever reason. Even though reality shows that Microsoft's move to the Surface Pro and Surface Book have made a huge impact, especially in comparison with the Apple iPad and the Apple MacBook, which is what they are really competing with respectively.

People are just generally blinded by their hate for something and have to go through great lengths and arguments and trying to assert their own boundaries to try and prove their narrative, no matter how feeble it is.
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It's become too easy for folks to just mail in criticisms of Microsoft. They do make a lot of mistakes and the Surface line had a rough start particularly with the failed Windows RT. But starting with the Surface Pro 3 they got it right and accomplished what they said they wanted to from the beginning. To create an inspirational line of devices. Even Apple was "inspired" with the release of the iPad Pro and Pencil and keyboard cover.

The bottom line is that 2 in 1s offer additional functionality over traditional laptops and tablets. Not everyone needs or wants that functionality but there is a market for it. There's long been a market for 2 in 1s but they had too many problems until recently to appeal to a broad audience.
 
NoOther said:
View attachment 19024

You were saying in your still faux outrage?
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I see a folded up laptop, the same one Ars Technica did a laptop review on claiming that the 360 degree hinge was nothing special? Rage? Not really. Just frustration over the inability of certain Windows users to comprehend what others are saying due to blind support of Microsoft and their associated products and manipulative marketing tactics.

The bottom line is, a 2 in 1 laptop is not a mobile device, is not marketed by retailers as a mobile device, it is marketed as a laptop, and Microsoft are lagging badly in the mobile marketplace with their overpriced Surface range of products.

Good day people.
 
Where are you getting this notion that a laptop isn't a mobile device? That's just about the most bizarre thing you've ever said.
 
heatlesssun said:
Where are you getting this notion that a laptop isn't a mobile device? That's just about the most bizarre thing you've ever said.
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Haha!

Where are you getting the notion that it is simply because it has a foldable touch screen, attached keyboard and an OS no one wants.

Hell, my Nexus 9's a desktop all in one PC with a keyboard and mouse is it?

You're stupid bias towards MS is simply hilarious! Now go and PM your buddy.
 
BulletDust said:
Haha!

Where are you getting the notion that it is simply because it has a foldable touch screen, attached keyboard and an OS no one wants.

Hell, my Nexus 9's a desktop all in one PC with a keyboard and mouse is it?

You're stupid bias towards MS is simply hilarious! Now go and PM your buddy.
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Millions of people move around every day with conventional laptops, I do with my conventional work issued laptop, like everyone else at work. Again, just totally bizarre stuff you're saying here.
 
BulletDust said:
I see a folded up laptop, the same one Ars Technica did a laptop review on claiming that the 360 degree hinge was nothing special? Rage? Not really. Just frustration over the inability of certain Windows users to comprehend what others are saying due to blind support of Microsoft and their associated products and manipulative marketing tactics.

The bottom line is, a 2 in 1 laptop is not a mobile device, is not marketed by retailers as a mobile device, it is marketed as a laptop, and Microsoft are lagging badly in the mobile marketplace with their overpriced Surface range of products.

Good day people.
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1) What happened to this:


BulletDust said:
Anyway, this conversation is downright retarded and I've got a weekend to enjoy.
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Yeah, no rage at all...lol.

2) Not sure what is wrong with being a windows user. That alone shows your rage over the issue, that you have to label people based on some OS. I personally use quite a few OS's, and Windows is the least used of all of them. But please go ahead with your assumptions lol.

3) You keep wanting to try and define things based on some scarce comments. Oh and btw, from that arstechnica article you want to keep hanging your hat on regarding hinges:

That’s why HP’s Spectre x360 convertible edged out the Kaby Lake version of the XPS 13 as our favorite Ultrabook late last year. HP made big, beneficial updates to the original design to reduce its size and weight. It had a handy convertible hinge, it supported Windows Hello authentication, it could handle up to 16GB of RAM, and it didn’t put the webcam in a dumb place (the tradeoff was that it had a largish top bezel, but it’s a forgivable concession to physics). The latest XPS 13 is still using 2015’s design, which is perfectly adequate, even if it’s no longer at the top of the heap.
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Guess the hinge is just a gimmick eh? They actually seem to like hinges, they just didn't like the execution on that particular system. They also said:

The Windows app ecosystem continues to be poorly suited for pure tablet use, but the hinge is useful for putting the laptop into a screen-forward tent mode for video chatting and watching video.
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So part of the problem they had with the hinge actually had more to do with the fact that they weren't all that impressed with the Windows App ecosystem with tablets, which was the purpose of the hinge. However, they hinge was still useful.

And for the kicker...in their verdict:

The good
  • Thin-bezeled design is still eye-catching and futuristic-looking two years later.
  • Even lighter weight and smaller footprint than the original XPS 13.
  • 16GB RAM and PCIe SSD options.
  • Standard touchscreen plus a convertible hinge and pen support make it more versatile than the standard XPS 13.
  • Great build quality, nice 1080p screen, 3200×1800 panel available for resolution junkies.
  • Good keyboard and Microsoft Precision Touchpad.
  • Thunderbolt 3 port plus a standard USB-C port. Having one on each side means you can plug the laptop in on either side.
  • Good battery life, if not quite as good as the standard XPS 13 model.
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OMG, is that a hinge in "The Good" about the system?

Then in regards to it not being mobile...from the same damn article:

The regular XPS 13 already has a pretty small footprint for a 13-inch laptop. So the fact that the convertible version is even smaller is impressive. It should be handy on planes or in other spaces where you don’t have much room to maneuver.
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You know, because it isn't designed to be mobile or anything.... Though they do say its weight makes it a bit difficult as a portable notepad.

And the funniest thing of all? They thought that 2 in 1 was a great device and worth the buy.

And for your information 2 in 1s are marketed as Laptop Replacements. That is the whole point, to give a lighter more mobile laptop that can function like a tablet and fill 2 needs in one. You just fail to understand that point. Of course there will be marketing it against laptops, Microsoft does that as well. They consistently list their Surface Book as a laptop replacement, while still categorizing it as a laptop. So I yet again, fail to see your point, other than pure hate.


And again, this is you trying to spin things to fit your narrative, rather than the reality.
 
NoOther said:
1) What happened to this:




Yeah, no rage at all...lol.

2) Not sure what is wrong with being a windows user. That alone shows your rage over the issue, that you have to label people based on some OS. I personally use quite a few OS's, and Windows is the least used of all of them. But please go ahead with your assumptions lol.

3) You keep wanting to try and define things based on some scarce comments. Oh and btw, from that arstechnica article you want to keep hanging your hat on regarding hinges:



Guess the hinge is just a gimmick eh? They actually seem to like hinges, they just didn't like the execution on that particular system. They also said:



So part of the problem they had with the hinge actually had more to do with the fact that they weren't all that impressed with the Windows App ecosystem with tablets, which was the purpose of the hinge. However, they hinge was still useful.

And for the kicker...in their verdict:



OMG, is that a hinge in "The Good" about the system?

Then in regards to it not being mobile...from the same damn article:



You know, because it isn't designed to be mobile or anything.... Though they do say its weight makes it a bit difficult as a portable notepad.

And the funniest thing of all? They thought that 2 in 1 was a great device and worth the buy.

And for your information 2 in 1s are marketed as Laptop Replacements. That is the whole point, to give a lighter more mobile laptop that can function like a tablet and fill 2 needs in one. You just fail to understand that point. Of course there will be marketing it against laptops, Microsoft does that as well. They consistently list their Surface Book as a laptop replacement, while still categorizing it as a laptop. So I yet again, fail to see your point, other than pure hate.


And again, this is you trying to spin things to fit your narrative, rather than the reality.
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Great post! Some pro-Linux desktop folks really get in a tizzy over 2 in 1s and it's odd that a group that supposedly LOVES CHOICE seem to hate the form factor choices of 2 in 1 devices. I'm thinking that because Microsoft is helping to promote these form factors is most of the reason for the hate of something that's actually doing pretty well these days. Even when Microsoft does something right, helps innovate and provide more choice, well Microsoft bad.

I'll never buy a conventional laptop ever again without a very specific need to do so. PCs for so long suffered crappy hardware and this generation of 2 in 1s really snapped PC makers out of a rut. Not that 2 in 1s are going to change the entire fortunes of PCs, smartphones are the new PCs, but there's a versatility in these devices that draws a loyal audience.
 
You guys still arguing that! :)

I consider a laptop something with a keyboard attached or the screen is big even if the keyboard detaches.
A tablet is something you take to bed for reading, general browsing, or playing candy crush or something.
A 2n1 is a hybrid not really both but both. ;) Does lots of work stuff, but kind of cumbersome for just a reader, browser, bed time type piece of hardware.
 
Hagrid said:
You guys still arguing that! :)

I consider a laptop something with a keyboard attached or the screen is big even if the keyboard detaches.
A tablet is something you take to bed for reading, general browsing, or playing candy crush or something.
A 2n1 is a hybrid not really both but both. ;) Does lots of work stuff, but kind of cumbersome for just a reader, browser, bed time type piece of hardware.
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That is a pretty good synopsis. In reality, devices are what people want them to be. Nothing says you can't think of your 18" laptop as a mobile device, after all my 18" work dev laptop is far more mobile than our racks and racks of HPCs.

heatlesssun said:
Great post! Some pro-Linux desktop folks really get in a tizzy over 2 in 1s and it's odd that a group that supposedly LOVES CHOICE seem to hate the form factor choices of 2 in 1 devices. I'm thinking that because Microsoft is helping to promote these form factors is most of the reason for the hate of something that's actually doing pretty well these days. Even when Microsoft does something right, helps innovate and provide more choice, well Microsoft bad.

I'll never buy a conventional laptop ever again without a very specific need to do so. PCs for so long suffered crappy hardware and this generation of 2 in 1s really snapped PC makers out of a rut. Not that 2 in 1s are going to change the entire fortunes of PCs, smartphones are the new PCs, but there's a versatility in these devices that draws a loyal audience.
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I think it is more Linux Desktop Evangelists that have issues with it, and not really with 2 in 1s but for anything Windows related. The rest of us pro Linux Desktop guys could care less, and just like having more devices we can play with and put Linux on. At work we have some Surface Tables (Yes "Table, not Tablet, the "original" original Surface Samsung tables), Surface Tablets, as well as a number of other "mobile" solutions (Yes at work the 2 in 1s are considered mobile, as are laptops in general, including as I mentioned giant 18" laptops which are called "mobile workstations"). In my group we install Linux on everything, we do not use Windows at all if we can help it. And it isn't because we hate Microsoft (although at least one of the leads does hate Microsoft), its because its free and we use almost exclusively all open source software. And let me tell you, we love just about any device we can get our greedy, grubby little hands on. We even have small devices like Rasberry Pis, Intel NUCs, mini-pcs, software defined radios, etc. up to multiple racks of HPCs with massive amounts of CPUs and GPUs.

All that to say, I have seen so many different types of systems used in so many different ways, it just makes me laugh when people try to pigeon hole things into specific names or categories.
 
Hagrid said:
You guys still arguing that! :)

I consider a laptop something with a keyboard attached or the screen is big even if the keyboard detaches.
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Exactly. That's why something like the Surface Book is considered by like everyone a laptop, even though the screen detaches. But as a result is both a laptop and a huge ass tablet, though Microsoft never called it that, they called it a clipboard because it doesn't have a lot juice just in the screen section, the battery is smallish to keep the weight down in a already top heavy laptop.

Hagrid said:
A tablet is something you take to bed for reading, general browsing, or playing candy crush or something.
A 2n1 is a hybrid not really both but both. ;) Does lots of work stuff, but kind of cumbersome for just a reader, browser, bed time type piece of hardware.
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And this is a difference between a Surface Pro and a Surface Book. The Surface Pro is straight up a tablet. A large one but still a tablet. The Surface Pro 4 is about 3 ounces heavier than the first iPad. A Surface Pro 4 is a large and heavy tablet but not so much not be usable in the situation that you're describing here. And the kickstand, that's a killer hardware feature on a tablet when you don't want to have to hold it to use it.
 
NoOther said:
All that to say, I have seen so many different types of systems used in so many different ways, it just makes me laugh when people try to pigeon hole things into specific names or categories.
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Indeed. The 2 in 1 concept is far from new but the idea is clearly about using the device the way that suits the need at the time.
 
Once again.

In as simplistic terms as some appear to require.

A 2 in 1 laptop, marketed as a laptop and sold as a laptop, of which I have posted many, many examples, highlighting this fact is a point not worth arguing, does not fall under the mobile category of a tablet because it's convenient to do so in order to artificially bump up Microsoft's poor mobile sales statistics. I never claimed a 2 in 1 design was a bad idea, I claimed that most users switch to mobile devices to get away from the issues surrounding Windows. So I'm honestly not too what Heatlesssun is ranting on about?

This was my claim, I highlighted all of the above with screenshots and a review that specifically called the Dell 2 in 1 laptop a laptop and i stand by the claim 100%. All your ineffective waffle has simply resulted in the discussion loosing focus far beyond my original claim.

I find it interesting how the one individual who gets 'fanboi brain fade' the second his backed into a corner over his so blatantly obvious bias keeps repeating the stupid rhetoric :

heatlesssun said:
Some pro-Linux desktop folks really get in a tizzy over 2 in 1s and it's odd that a group that supposedly LOVES CHOICE seem to hate the form factor choices of 2 in 1 devices.
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Like us poor 'ol Linux users somehow lack the mental capacity to comprehend the world around us! Meanwhile it's the Windows users themselves claiming that anything beyond the OS that's been forced onto users for years is just to hard!

Very odd...?

Another little tit bit...I don't hate Windows, there is times I actively defend it - However these days, with MS grappling at straws and making stupid decisions regarding the direction of their OS and it's peculiarities there isn't much there to defend. That's the harsh reality of the situation.

Point made, links provided proving my point - All done. No more to discuss on this joke of a discussion blown completely out of proportion by Heatlesssun...Again.
 
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BulletDust said:
Once again.

In as simplistic terms as some appear to require.

A 2 in 1 laptop, marketed as a laptop and sold as a laptop, of which I have posted many, many examples, highlighting this fact is a point not worth arguing, does not fall under the mobile category of a tablet because it's convenient to do so in order to artificially bump up Microsoft's poor mobile sales statistics. I never claimed a 2 in 1 design was a bad idea, I claimed that most users switch to mobile devices to get away from the issues surrounding Windows. So I'm honestly not too what Heatlesssun is ranting on about?
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And again, the notion that laptop isn't a mobile device is just bizarre.
 
endalykt said:
*cough*

A desktop is a stationary device.
A laptop is a portable device.
A handheld is a mobile device.

:rolleyes:
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A 10 pound desktop replacement laptop is portable. A sub 3 pound 2 in 1 laptop is pretty mobile. Sure a phone is more mobile but one can easily walk around with a pen enabled light 2 in 1 laptop and write on it.
 
upload_2017-3-11_18-8-3.png


Not exactly sure what this debate about "mobility" is about. Here's four Windows 10 devices that range from about 13 ounces to 3.5 lbs. The Surface devices can all be used with keyboards and in that configuration, they are all within about a four ounce range of the original iPad. All can be used without the need to be in a stationary position to use the mouse and keyboard. The difference is all about size, weight, features and performance. I think the Surface 3, the one on the far right, is about one of best mobile computers I've ever used. 1.2 lbs without the Type Cover, 2 lbs. altogether. Sure that's a lot more bulk than a smartphone but it runs LibreOffice well.

Microsoft and OEM partners have been pushing 2 in 1s as mobile productivity devices and that's a perfectly fair way to look at it.

upload_2017-3-11_18-20-25.png
 
heatlesssun said:
View attachment 19102

Not exactly sure what this debate about "mobility" is about. Here's four Windows 10 devices that range from about 13 ounces to 3.5 lbs. The Surface devices can all be used with keyboards and in that configuration, they are all within about a four ounce range of the original iPad. All can be used without the need to be in a stationary position to use the mouse and keyboard. The difference is all about size, weight, features and performance. I think the Surface 3, the one on the far right, is about one of best mobile computers I've ever used. 1.2 lbs without the Type Cover, 2 lbs. altogether. Sure that's a lot more bulk than a smartphone but it runs LibreOffice well.

Microsoft and OEM partners have been pushing 2 in 1s as mobile productivity devices and that's a perfectly fair way to look at it.

View attachment 19108
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We're talking about respective markets and you can't seem to grasp the difference between portability and mobile!

To quote endalykt as he put it so simply and perfectly:

endalykt said:
*cough*

A desktop is a stationary device.
A laptop is a portable device.
A handheld is a mobile device.

:rolleyes:
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You cannot artificially inflate your mobile sales figures by claiming that 2 in 1 laptops fit into the mobile category of the marketplace, especially when such devices are totally and utterly marketed as laptops. It completely explains why Microsoft are claiming the laptop market is disappearing, it's not disappearing at all, Microsoft have simply shifted the goal posts to suit themselves.

[edit] Oh God, you even use Edge....
[edit again] Note: We all know how 2 in 1 devices work and we're not including tablets with removable keyboards in the mix. A surface tablet is marketed as a tablet and that's fine from a respective marketplace perspective.
 
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BulletDust said:
You cannot artificially inflate your mobile sales figures by claiming that 2 in 1 laptops fit into the mobile category of the marketplace, especially when such devices are totally and utterly marketed as laptops. It completely explains why Microsoft are claiming the laptop market is disappearing, it's not disappearing at all, Microsoft have simply shifted the goal posts to suit themselves.
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Who is artificially inflating anything? All that's been said is that in the category of touch capable devices NOT smartphones, Windows 2 in 1s are growing solidly, even counting pure Windows tablets which aren't doing at well.

BulletDust said:
[edit] Oh God, you even use Edge....
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I use Edge, Chrome and IE. They are all installed all of the devices shown above. Edge I believe is the best touch capable browser in Windows 10. Chrome has improved a lot in that area in the last year but it's not quite as responsive with touch.
 
heatlesssun said:
Who is artificially inflating anything? All that's been said is that in the category of touch capable devices NOT smartphones, Windows 2 in 1s are growing solidly, even counting pure Windows tablets.
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Dear God, this is a flat out joke, your brain fade is a flat out joke.

This argument started over links you submitted claiming that MS are doing really well in the mobile sector due to 2 in 1 devices. I claimed that most 2 in 1 devices do not fit into the mobile sector of the market and fit into the laptop sector of the market, therefore explaining the artificially inflated mobile figures as we all know Surface tablets are not doing that well, and explaining the apparent drop in laptop sales figures. I also claimed that people switch to mobile devices to get away from Windows and all of it's issues.

From this point on your brain fade kicked into high gear and you totally derailed the conversation.

heatlesssun said:
I use Edge, Chrome and IE. They are all installed all of the devices shown above. Edge I believe is the best touch capable browser in Windows 10. Chrome has improved a lot in that area in the last year but it's not quite as responsive with touch. In any case there's an Edge extension that will transfer a page to any device in a local network and that's what I used when setting this shot.
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It's a touch browser pushed onto desktop users with a perfectly good keyboard and mouse and it sucks.
 
BulletDust said:
This argument started over links you submitted claiming that MS are doing really well in the mobile sector due to 2 in 1 devices.
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Nope. That's not at all what these links said. They were about touch capable devices that are NOT phones.
 
heatlesssun said:
Nope. That's not at all what these links said. They were about touch capable devices that are NOT phones.
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Christ, stop deliberately forgetting tablets. A 2 in 1 laptop is by definition not a tablet, it is not marketed as a tablet, it is defiantly marketed as a laptop - Therefore it does not fit in the mobile category of the marketplace and it defiantly fits in the laptop category of the marketplace.

We are all well aware of the difference between phones, tablets, 2 in 1 laptops and conventional laptops not to mention their operation and usage scenarios.
 
BulletDust said:
Christ, stop deliberately forgetting tablets. A 2 in 1 laptop is by definition not a tablet, it is not marketed as a tablet, it is defiantly marketed as a laptop - Therefore it does not fit in the mobile category of the marketplace and it defiantly fits in the laptop category of the marketplace.

We are all well aware of the difference between phones, tablets, 2 in 1 laptops and conventional laptops not to mention their operation and usage scenarios.
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Huh? Who is forgetting about tablets? The point expressed in these articles is that PURE tablets aren't doing well. Which makes sense if all one's tablet is a big phone which you already have. A 2 in 1 laptop is something with different capabilities than a phone that works like a tablet and laptop. And some Windows 2 in 1s are tablets. Bottom line, larger screen devices than a phone are trending to productivity tasks that phones suck at. Windows blows mobile OSes out of the water for productivity tasks.

You're arguing against something that no one was even talking about. Except maybe the mobile thing. I have a wide range of Windows based devices that are incredibly flexible. The idea that my Surface 3 isn't mobile doesn't make a lot sense to me considering how I've been using for a couple of years now. Most people think it's a paper based notepad at first glance. And those things are pretty mobile.
 
Mobile means it fits in a pocket fairly easily. Most 2 in 1's do not fit that definition. I have an 11in Dell 2in1 and I view it as a compromise device. Its a small laptop that can double as a tablet if needed (namely touchscreen web surfing on the couch or video watching). It is far more mobile than my 14-15'' laptops but it is not the same as a phone or tablet.
 
No one ever said that a phone isn't more mobile than a laptop but modern thin and light and 2 in 1 laptops are quite mobile and they certainly would be better for many mainstream productivity tasks on the go than a phone. And that's the overarching theme in how 2 in 1 devices are marketed, as good mobile PRODUCTIVITY devices that can serve the purpose of both a tablet and a laptop, thus being more mobile by consolidating two devices into one. No one is marketing them as phone replacements.

I consider my Surface devices as mobile PCs that range across a range of size, weight and performance. Each one can take the form of a true tablet. The Surface Book with the screen detached from the keyboard is roughly the same size and weight as the iPad Pro 12.9. The biggest hindrance in its mobility in this form is the low battery life as most of the battery is in the keyboard section. But it would plenty of power to use in a class or meeting to take notes with pen if one wanted to do so.

What is and isn't mobile isn't an exact thing. Yes, the smaller and lighter something is the more mobile it is, but larger and heavier devices can be perfectly mobile and better suited for certain mobile tasks where being too small gets in the way. The sales comparisons I've linked to here were all about 2 in 1s in comparison to the general tablet market. As larger phones have become more popular, people have bought fewer smaller tablets anyway. 2 in 1s provide functionality that phones don't have so it makes sense that tablet sales would decrease and a device that serves different purposes from phones and pure tablets would see growth.
 
Wait..I'm all on board a good lets bash on tablets and Microsoft for terrible decisions debate..but since when is a Laptop not a mobile device? Is that literally his argument? I mean my memory may be fuzzy since I'm "old" and stuff..but I'm pretty sure Laptops were the first "mobile" device...
 
Dekoth-E- said:
Wait..I'm all on board a good lets bash on tablets and Microsoft for terrible decisions debate..but since when is a Laptop not a mobile device? Is that literally his argument? I mean my memory may be fuzzy since I'm "old" and stuff..but I'm pretty sure Laptops were the first "mobile" device...
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Microsoft is trying to pretend they have a "mobile" product ecosystem, when what they have is a hybrid laptop with an OS nobody wants and an app store nobody uses.
 
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DeathFromBelow said:
Microsoft is trying to pretend they have a "mobile" product ecosystem, when what they have is a hybrid laptop with an OS nobody wants and an app store nobody uses.
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Windows 2 in 1 devices have been a round long time, they were called "convertibles" back in the day. Whatever one may think of 2 in 1s to say that there are something no one wants is in direct contradiction with all the reports I've seen on them. The need to bash Microsoft even when they do something right is pretty odd.
 
you two really are trying to come in 1st place in the special olympics ...

987251565_22ea2338dd.jpg
 
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