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FrgMstr

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
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Posted this weekend already, but worth repeating since retractions very rarely get the exposure of the original article...

You guys may or may not remember that "study" from about 3 or 4 years ago, but it claimed that people that played video games were better real life shooters in terms of accuracy. Well, it has been recently retracted due to "irregularities" with its data. I have been a fairly avid shooter over the last decade, and I can tell you this, video games in no way have made me personally a better shot. That said, I will tell you that the recent VR shooters we have seen, like Hot Dogs, Horseshoes, and Hand Grenades, will absolutely make you more informed when it comes to how weapons function in the real world.

Essentially, the study argues that players who played a violent video game focusing on headshots with a digital handgun were able to accurately score headshots on mannequins with real handguns afterward.
 
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This thread does have a more concise and to the point headline than the other one.
 
While I can't imagine they make you a better shooter in real life, I'd imagine some of the stuff you learn in video games does translate into real life. For example, slicing the pie, quick peeks, and other tactics that you probably wouldn't know to do unless you had done them in games.
 
Rahh said:
It was another reason to plug VR.
Click to expand...
My suggestion is that sim VR games can very well get you better educated on how exactly this weapons operate. How the bolts operate and handle, etc. I do not think they will make you a better shot however.

Have you played H3VR?
 
I'm pretty good shot in games. I'm pretty mediocre in real life. I'd get a 37-38 out of 50 rounds shot from an M-16. I never could get expert marksman while in the AF. It probably has to do with being left eye dominant, while being right handed. Something that doesn't affect my gaming, seeing as I have crosshairs on the screen on top of whatever target. I tried shooting left handed before, but my score dropped to like low 20s.

VR as a training tool to learn about weapons, sounds good to me. Although, more expensive than say, just giving them a weapon to train on. Now maybe use it to show the particulars of a weapon. Like how to load, aim, and shoot a Mk19 grenade launcher without them possibly messing up a real one or wasting ammo. Once they get more familiarized with it, then they can play with the real one without possibly hurting themselves or damaging the weapon.
 
Gotta say, H3VR is pretty impressive. There were quite a few Vive guns shown off at CES this year, so I can imagine those will make that game even better.
 
the military uses modified laser tag guns for the same reason people started with the premise that video games teach you to shoot better. Some games try to model the real world physics and some are just run and gun. I had run testing modern warfare 3 not because it was accurate to the real thing but becuase of the sillyness of it. You have knives that register hits faster than rifle rounds. It is silly and totally not real. Then their games like america's army that was used a recruiting tool because they wanted to see who was acquiring a sight picture waiting for the exhaled breathe and shooting to disable a target. One thing I was taught over and over again, is that if you can disable a combatant's arms or hands so they can not shoot and one of their legs so they have to be carried out of the field of fire you take out three combatants at once. Plus you delay a medic treating that combatant while another may be bleeding out. Which then hurts moral as soldiers see wounded troops possible crippled for life.

You can not learn how to deal with recoil without shooting a physical handgun. Sure you can shoot something like a OGM that has very little recoil felt but it still pushes straight back into your hand and kicks upward slightly due to the gas venting from the slide. What you can learn from a videogame is how to acquire a sight picture, how to gauge distances with points of reference if the scale is accurate in the game, (which in some games it is not like mw3 due to the perceived size being more important to story and entertainment than the actual size.) Learning to react fast is good in some situations but learning to think then react when you can is better. But basically the games with auto aim the data is worthless. Sure you can turn it off but many of them have to work with the animations and what is possible in their game's framework not what people might want when they get the game in their hands.

So learning to shoot is a matter of learning to pause, then focus on what you plan to destroy because thinking about it any other way is a recipe for shooting something by accident, then and only then take up a stance that allows for recoil and a follow up shot, then re-acquiring a sight picture, and firing. where in that sequence you take the safety off is really something people are taught differently for different reasons. Sure that may also happen in seconds and you may be diving behind something that hopefully deflects or stops return fire but it is better to practice the steps to know what you are shooting at and what you are doing after you pull the trigger before you pull the trigger as you have to hold the barrel steady until the round is five feet past the barrel. recoil happens the moment you pull the trigger so the barrel is always moving the important thing is to be thinking until the play of the bullet being firing is something you under stand at a deeper level. I had to shoot a box of twenty round bullets before I end understood what they meant. I was shooting I think about ten to fifteen boxes of ammo every year at camp and shooting with some of my college friends probably a thousand rounds of center fire rounds before I every managed to snap the rifle up and shoot without most of the steps. I know I puzzled the range master in basic. I think that is when they decided I was stuck as a combat controller. I'm sure they get guys who shoot sub-moa in basic all the time since that is one of the mindsets that go into basic, but not many who shoot like that can can field strip and resume firing and complete qualified before a drum mag from an m16, which is a hundred rounds, empties the drum. Those are mostly used to suppress enemy fire as they can cut a post in half but for the weight of bullets they rarely take out more than one of two combatants, while sharp shooters take out one combatant per bullet. I finished when the rangemaster hit eighty rounds. If I had taken longer I would have had a higher score, but if the drum ran empty I would have failed, and been washed back to week one, day one.

So I guess the point is video games can be point and clip they can be thumb stick aiming and pulling a trigger or they can be educational tools that teach you the parts of how to safely acquire a target and disable it. As to how to stand, how to properly hold a firearm, how to deal with recoil so you don't get slapped in the face by the fire arm or break your collar bone... that is mostly something you have to have hands on a physical weapon. Someone might be able to design a vive gun that uses force feed back to make you think you understand recoil most most simply vibrate the whole device not use a pneumatic piston to jerk the firearm in your hands.

As to using VR for a grenade launcher it is a bad idea. You have to get people to treat grenades as if they might blow up in their hand. The way they work in real life is they are sub munitions. Basically they are large rounds that explode in the tube tossing them forward and there is possibly of the tube exploding in the person's hands. As a force multiplier they are a good idea in practice the damn things are as likely to kill you as the enemy's cover you are trying to remove. Marksmen is awarded for score of better than twenty rounds sub-moa, or every bullet fired hits a five inch target. Most people in basic are exhausted and excited because they are getting to shoot a gun. It is supposed to resemble the effect of troops that are on edge due to a war. If you stop and take your time to shoot correctly it can be done in the allotted time. Most people are too busy trying to pull the trigger then aim, that the don't understand why they can not hit the target. If you can acquire a sight picture and hold it steady you can shoot expert. If you can not hold it steady you need to build up the muscles in your forearms or cut down on the fat in them. The muscle to fat ratio in your arms needs to be as close to 100% muscle to 1% fat. fat might be lighter but if you are holding five to ten pounds at slightly less than your arms length you need muscle but big fluffy muscles. Easy way to tell the ratio is is to what is muscle and what is fat muscle ripples when you wiggle your fingers fat wiggles. But the best thing to when learning to shoot is get a weapon with the correct draw length, meaning when you hold your empty hand in a fist bring it up to your check bone have the thumb rest so you can see your forefinger, your elbow is up and it should not move back much at all. You other hand should be with a bent elbow no further than is comfortable in front of you. Then the stock should be placed firmly against your collarbone. you should not have to move your head to see the dot in the center of the scope or the ladder sight through the round sight. Shooting with a left dominate eye you have to change the whole stance of your body because the recoil goes through the opposing contraposo. So you start with your left hand's thumb against your left check with the right eye closed. your right hand is extended only as far as comfortable. Your left foot is back not your right foot. Most people simply try standing with their left foot forward and the body still turned as if they are holding the rifle with their right hand across their body with the right foot back. To shoot left handed you have to face the other way and turn your head to the right. I can shoot both way but most people have trouble learning that the rifle is held across the body. When you shoot pistol you can shoot either side because you have both hands supporting the firearm, but you still have a strong stance shooting with the foot on the side that is holding the grip to be back. I tend to shoot with locked wrist bones which means I have to shoot grip hand side foot back. Meaning that with the pistol in my right hand I place the backs of my hands against each other and my left fore arm flat to the target and my right foot back and leaning forward to brace myself. It is one of the reason people make jokes about dual mojo because when someone tries they fall over backwards most of the time since they don't have a foot behind the other foot bracing their body. If you learn to stand in contraposso you could shift positions as you fire alternating hands but still nuts.
 
DarkStar02 said:
While I can't imagine they make you a better shooter in real life, I'd imagine some of the stuff you learn in video games does translate into real life. For example, slicing the pie, quick peeks, and other tactics that you probably wouldn't know to do unless you had done them in games.
Click to expand...


You mean, because they don't train the people who need these tactics in service schools ?

Look, I am talking to more people here then just you DS sos it ain't personal right.

I'm ex Army right, retired, old school. I shot decent enough with an M-16 A1, A2, the M60 GPMG and M1911 A1. Good enough to get expert now and then, and win some unit comps. Others are certainly better but I don't think anyone is going too line up for a chance to let me put sights on them.

All that being said, I recognized long ago that the idea of "clearing" my house and shit if someone breaks in is sorta dumb. I just don't, and won't train hard enough to do this even in a home I know every inch of. No, wife and I both keep our phones next to the bed, I have a Beretta Model 85B on the night stand that is just supposed to get me to the closet door while the wife heads for the bathroom to call 911. I have a Remington 870 Marine Magnum in the closet and once I get my hands on that sweetheart I am going to park myself at the door to the bathroom watching the bedroom door.

Seriously, they can steal what they want out of the rest of the house, they just better not come in the bedroom. I am not about to go play T.J. Hooker around my house looking for them. Wife and I will just wait for the cops and call the insurance company after. I don't want to go through all the bullshit of a trial and shit anyway. I don't want a hero medal and don't want any notches on my gun. It is not worth it unless your life is actually on the line.

If you think a video game is going to give you the knowledge you need then you are only thinking about the few seconds that make up shooting someone and you are completely missing the years and shit that comes after.
 
lcpiper said:
You mean, because they don't train the people who need these tactics in service schools ?

Look, I am talking to more people here then just you DS sos it ain't personal right.

I'm ex Army right, retired, old school. I shot decent enough with an M-16 A1, A2, the M60 GPMG and M1911 A1. Good enough to get expert now and then, and win some unit comps. Others are certainly better but I don't think anyone is going too line up for a chance to let me put sights on them.

All that being said, I recognized long ago that the idea of "clearing" my house and shit if someone breaks in is sorta dumb. I just don't, and won't train hard enough to do this even in a home I know every inch of. No, wife and I both keep our phones next to the bed, I have a Beretta Model 85B on the night stand that is just supposed to get me to the closet door while the wife heads for the bathroom to call 911. I have a Remington 870 Marine Magnum in the closet and once I get my hands on that sweetheart I am going to park myself at the door to the bathroom watching the bedroom door.

Seriously, they can steal what they want out of the rest of the house, they just better not come in the bedroom. I am not about to go play T.J. Hooker around my house looking for them. Wife and I will just wait for the cops and call the insurance company after. I don't want to go through all the bullshit of a trial and shit anyway. I don't want a hero medal and don't want any notches on my gun. It is not worth it unless your life is actually on the line.

If you think a video game is going to give you the knowledge you need then you are only thinking about the few seconds that make up shooting someone and you are completely missing the years and shit that comes after.
Click to expand...

As always I hate saying this, I agree.

Video games have given me interest in firearms I may not have previously heard of but that is the limit of what I can take from it. Sometimes it is fun to use a gun you own and like in your game of choice, even if it has "bad stats". I do think some games could lead people to make bad decisions in a life/death scenario like you said, they may try and clear their house rainbow six style with no real combat experience.

I keep a a shotgun with ammo close by but honestly, i fear needing it for a bear or pack of coyotes more than a person. Just statistically more likely. I would rather someone came in my house and took what they needed and left us alone. That is for the cops and insurance to deal with. Not going to shoot someone stealing my tv, if they mean harm that is different and I hope to never see that scenario. Anyone that would honestly hope for that encounter, probably shouldn't own a firearm (we all know those types).
 
krotch said:
I'm pretty good shot in games. I'm pretty mediocre in real life. I'd get a 37-38 out of 50 rounds shot from an M-16. I never could get expert marksman while in the AF. It probably has to do with being left eye dominant, while being right handed. Something that doesn't affect my gaming, seeing as I have crosshairs on the screen on top of whatever target. I tried shooting left handed before, but my score dropped to like low 20s.

VR as a training tool to learn about weapons, sounds good to me. Although, more expensive than say, just giving them a weapon to train on. Now maybe use it to show the particulars of a weapon. Like how to load, aim, and shoot a Mk19 grenade launcher without them possibly messing up a real one or wasting ammo. Once they get more familiarized with it, then they can play with the real one without possibly hurting themselves or damaging the weapon.
Click to expand...

I've always wondered how this works, say in the military. I am legally blind in my right eye, while also being right handed. Would I have to learn to use my left hand? I've been looking to purchase a firearm as of late, so I was wondering about this.
 
drakken said:
the military uses modified laser tag guns for the same reason people started with the premise that video games teach you to shoot better. Some games try to model the real world physics and some are just run and gun. I had run testing modern warfare 3 not because it was accurate to the real thing but becuase of the sillyness of it. You have knives that register hits faster than rifle rounds. It is silly and totally not real. Then their games like america's army that was used a recruiting tool because they wanted to see who was acquiring a sight picture waiting for the exhaled breathe and shooting to disable a target. One thing I was taught over and over again, is that if you can disable a combatant's arms or hands so they can not shoot and one of their legs so they have to be carried out of the field of fire you take out three combatants at once. Plus you delay a medic treating that combatant while another may be bleeding out. Which then hurts moral as soldiers see wounded troops possible crippled for life.

You can not learn how to deal with recoil without shooting a physical handgun. Sure you can shoot something like a OGM that has very little recoil felt but it still pushes straight back into your hand and kicks upward slightly due to the gas venting from the slide. What you can learn from a videogame is how to acquire a sight picture, how to gauge distances with points of reference if the scale is accurate in the game, (which in some games it is not like mw3 due to the perceived size being more important to story and entertainment than the actual size.) Learning to react fast is good in some situations but learning to think then react when you can is better. But basically the games with auto aim the data is worthless. Sure you can turn it off but many of them have to work with the animations and what is possible in their game's framework not what people might want when they get the game in their hands.

So learning to shoot is a matter of learning to pause, then focus on what you plan to destroy because thinking about it any other way is a recipe for shooting something by accident, then and only then take up a stance that allows for recoil and a follow up shot, then re-acquiring a sight picture, and firing. where in that sequence you take the safety off is really something people are taught differently for different reasons. Sure that may also happen in seconds and you may be diving behind something that hopefully deflects or stops return fire but it is better to practice the steps to know what you are shooting at and what you are doing after you pull the trigger before you pull the trigger as you have to hold the barrel steady until the round is five feet past the barrel. recoil happens the moment you pull the trigger so the barrel is always moving the important thing is to be thinking until the play of the bullet being firing is something you under stand at a deeper level. I had to shoot a box of twenty round bullets before I end understood what they meant. I was shooting I think about ten to fifteen boxes of ammo every year at camp and shooting with some of my college friends probably a thousand rounds of center fire rounds before I every managed to snap the rifle up and shoot without most of the steps. I know I puzzled the range master in basic. I think that is when they decided I was stuck as a combat controller. I'm sure they get guys who shoot sub-moa in basic all the time since that is one of the mindsets that go into basic, but not many who shoot like that can can field strip and resume firing and complete qualified before a drum mag from an m16, which is a hundred rounds, empties the drum. Those are mostly used to suppress enemy fire as they can cut a post in half but for the weight of bullets they rarely take out more than one of two combatants, while sharp shooters take out one combatant per bullet. I finished when the rangemaster hit eighty rounds. If I had taken longer I would have had a higher score, but if the drum ran empty I would have failed, and been washed back to week one, day one.

So I guess the point is video games can be point and clip they can be thumb stick aiming and pulling a trigger or they can be educational tools that teach you the parts of how to safely acquire a target and disable it. As to how to stand, how to properly hold a firearm, how to deal with recoil so you don't get slapped in the face by the fire arm or break your collar bone... that is mostly something you have to have hands on a physical weapon. Someone might be able to design a vive gun that uses force feed back to make you think you understand recoil most most simply vibrate the whole device not use a pneumatic piston to jerk the firearm in your hands.

As to using VR for a grenade launcher it is a bad idea. You have to get people to treat grenades as if they might blow up in their hand. The way they work in real life is they are sub munitions. Basically they are large rounds that explode in the tube tossing them forward and there is possibly of the tube exploding in the person's hands. As a force multiplier they are a good idea in practice the damn things are as likely to kill you as the enemy's cover you are trying to remove. Marksmen is awarded for score of better than twenty rounds sub-moa, or every bullet fired hits a five inch target. Most people in basic are exhausted and excited because they are getting to shoot a gun. It is supposed to resemble the effect of troops that are on edge due to a war. If you stop and take your time to shoot correctly it can be done in the allotted time. Most people are too busy trying to pull the trigger then aim, that the don't understand why they can not hit the target. If you can acquire a sight picture and hold it steady you can shoot expert. If you can not hold it steady you need to build up the muscles in your forearms or cut down on the fat in them. The muscle to fat ratio in your arms needs to be as close to 100% muscle to 1% fat. fat might be lighter but if you are holding five to ten pounds at slightly less than your arms length you need muscle but big fluffy muscles. Easy way to tell the ratio is is to what is muscle and what is fat muscle ripples when you wiggle your fingers fat wiggles. But the best thing to when learning to shoot is get a weapon with the correct draw length, meaning when you hold your empty hand in a fist bring it up to your check bone have the thumb rest so you can see your forefinger, your elbow is up and it should not move back much at all. You other hand should be with a bent elbow no further than is comfortable in front of you. Then the stock should be placed firmly against your collarbone. you should not have to move your head to see the dot in the center of the scope or the ladder sight through the round sight. Shooting with a left dominate eye you have to change the whole stance of your body because the recoil goes through the opposing contraposo. So you start with your left hand's thumb against your left check with the right eye closed. your right hand is extended only as far as comfortable. Your left foot is back not your right foot. Most people simply try standing with their left foot forward and the body still turned as if they are holding the rifle with their right hand across their body with the right foot back. To shoot left handed you have to face the other way and turn your head to the right. I can shoot both way but most people have trouble learning that the rifle is held across the body. When you shoot pistol you can shoot either side because you have both hands supporting the firearm, but you still have a strong stance shooting with the foot on the side that is holding the grip to be back. I tend to shoot with locked wrist bones which means I have to shoot grip hand side foot back. Meaning that with the pistol in my right hand I place the backs of my hands against each other and my left fore arm flat to the target and my right foot back and leaning forward to brace myself. It is one of the reason people make jokes about dual mojo because when someone tries they fall over backwards most of the time since they don't have a foot behind the other foot bracing their body. If you learn to stand in contraposso you could shift positions as you fire alternating hands but still nuts.
Click to expand...
Holy shit man.

TEGLKDZ.gif


TLDR?
 
to long did not read version... learning to shoot is easy if you can read...
 
MrTryfe said:
I've always wondered how this works, say in the military. I am legally blind in my right eye, while also being right handed. Would I have to learn to use my left hand? I've been looking to purchase a firearm as of late, so I was wondering about this.
Click to expand...

Umm, well being legally blind in one eye means you will not be in the military under any normal situations I can think of. I believe they would classify you as physically unfit for service.

As for you personally owning a firearm I do not know of any such restriction.

I can say this though. After years of shooting, like I started with BB guns in 1972 and went hunting for real with my Dad in 1974. I've been shooting all my life.

Anyway, a few years ago I bought a little .380 that comes with a laser, I thought that little laser was sooo sweet. After fooling with it for a few days but not yet having an opportunity to shoot it using the laser, the light was always too bright outside for it. I started realizing that I couldn't really use the handgun the same way I normally would and see the laser. It was too low, I had to either aim with the sights, or aim with the laser. I couldn't do both. Then I realized that I would have to retrain myself to properly use the laser, and it was then that this old dog decided that a laser just wasn't a trick I had to learn.

But for you, never having really used firearms before. You might be a perfect candidate for using lasers and other types of sights as primary aiming devices. I can't say for sure, but I bet there is a sight that is right for you. You can't be the only optically challenged shooter in the world, ask around.
 
Lifelite said:
Holy shit man.

TEGLKDZ.gif


TLDR?
Click to expand...


I never saw no modified laser tag guns, unless you mean the "God Guns".

We had what was called the MILES system, something like Multiple Integrated Laser Engagement System.

It added lasers of different types to most of your individual and crew served weapons system all the way up to tanks and APCs. The soldiers wear sensor harnesses on their torsos and helmets, the weapons fire blank ammo and when they go boom, the laser senses the discharge and lights off a "shot". If a vehicle or soldier is hit with the right kind of weapons their harness goes "beeeeeep" until an exercise control comes around and turns off the sensor and reports the kills.

So I suppose the harness might be a little laser tag like, but the weapons are not modified, they just have a laser attachment on them and use training ammunition. It was better then the old days "I shot him first ref, I swear !" "His gun wasn't even pointed at me .."

Oh, the God Guns were the laser guns given to controllers so they could "kill" anyone they thought deserved to have been killed by the stupid shit they did. The God Guns could be switched to fire the laser signal of any weapon type, so they could kill anything, hence God Gun. That and the OCs, Controller dudes, they didn't wear harnesses and couldn't be killed, they were the referees.
 
H3VR is probably my favorite VR game overall. It helps that the developer (Anton) is awesome and extremely in-touch with the community. And it's also one of the best-handled Early Access titles I've ever seen, with regular devlog videos and updates on a bi-weekly basis (used to be weekly but more to do each update now that the game is more complex).
 
Spire3660 said:
I think this is short sighted. I think that sims like H3VR can make you a better shot, up to a point. It can certainly get you to aim down the sights better and to learn to squeeze the trigger instead of pulling it. Using the quark cannon and pistols in Space Pirate Trainer take some serious accuracy to land a hit. It shows very clearly how precise you have to be. As we get more VR/AR gun props, this 'familiarity' will only increase.
Click to expand...
I have to disagree.

No, they will not make you a better shot. It might help you to understand how to better handle a weapon, but the Vive controllers are not going to reflect exactly the way you hand grips any weapon and trigger pull is going to be tremendously different, and more than a few other things. Good target shooting is all about muscle memory and none of that is learned in VR...unless you had an exact replica weapon to practice with, weight, trigger pull, balance, recoil etc.

It is hard enough to learn to be accurate with these weapons when you practice with the actual weapon with live rounds, much less a Vive controller. Every single one is very different.

Guns_Family_Picture.jpg
 
MrTryfe said:
I've always wondered how this works, say in the military. I am legally blind in my right eye, while also being right handed. Would I have to learn to use my left hand? I've been looking to purchase a firearm as of late, so I was wondering about this.
Click to expand...

Depends have bad it is and how much you can correct the vision in that eye. More than likely, they simply wouldn't let you join.

Edit:

As for shooting, ya. Best to learn to shoot with your left hand or spend a little extra and get a red dot sight. You shoot those with both eyes open, so you can probably shoot with your left eye. Not sure, never tried. Maybe see if you have a local range with rental guns that have a red dot.
 
I may not be a better shot from my decades of playing shooters but I sure as hell know how to efficiently clear out rooms and buildings, check all the corners, and generally stay low, quiet, and near cover at all times naturally.

A few summers ago I did a lot of shooting practice with my .22 ruger. It's nice being able to buy 500 bullets for $20 then you can actually afford to get good. After several boxes throughout the summer I had a lot of fun shooting from the hip at pipes hanging from trees and eventually I could hit them from the hip most of the time from about 10 feet away. Pretty satisfying.
 
MrTryfe said:
I've always wondered how this works, say in the military. I am legally blind in my right eye, while also being right handed. Would I have to learn to use my left hand? I've been looking to purchase a firearm as of late, so I was wondering about this.
Click to expand...

You should try practicing some shooting with your left hand and eye. I'm sure it will be really awkward at first but I bet after a few days of regular practice you will start to feel more comfortable with it. It's just a matter of practice. You might not ever be quite as good as you were with your right hand but it's still way better than nothing. With enough practice you should be able to get very good anyway.
 
A few summers ago I visited my sister in Korea and we went to a shooting range. She was a much better shot with a 9mm Beretta than I was with a Glock, despite my years of "training" in FPS games.

I destroyed her on the virtual M4 target shooting game though.
 
Spire3660 said:
I think this is short sighted. I think that sims like H3VR can make you a better shot, up to a point. It can certainly get you to aim down the sights better and to learn to squeeze the trigger instead of pulling it. Using the quark cannon and pistols in Space Pirate Trainer take some serious accuracy to land a hit. It shows very clearly how precise you have to be. As we get more VR/AR gun props, this 'familiarity' will only increase.

In the future, we should train people to safely handle and use guns in VR before we ever hand them a live weapon.
Click to expand...


Because instead of spending all your time learning by handling the real thing, unloaded, then loaded with training ammo, and lastly with the real deal. We can waste time fucking around with make believe at a time when we are trying to impose a sense of serious responsibility in a new shooter instead of making his first experiences a video game.

You have to use the real thing sooner or later so why spend thousands on VR setups when training ammo is a pretty cheap alternative to a half assed fiction.

Training sims are only a useful alternative when you can not go do it for real and right.

That's how this old soldier sees it.
 
sirgallium312 said:
I may not be a better shot from my decades of playing shooters but I sure as hell know how to efficiently clear out rooms and buildings, check all the corners, and generally stay low, quiet, and near cover at all times naturally.

A few summers ago I did a lot of shooting practice with my .22 ruger. It's nice being able to buy 500 bullets for $20 then you can actually afford to get good. After several boxes throughout the summer I had a lot of fun shooting from the hip at pipes hanging from trees and eventually I could hit them from the hip most of the time from about 10 feet away. Pretty satisfying.
Click to expand...


In your VR environment where you have learned so much, is the environment destructible? Can you shoot through the sheet rock walls and the sofas?

Can you grab some bullshit article off an end table and pitch it somewhere to make noise and distract someone? Do you adversaries who don't know you are there walk up behind you because you are creeping stealthy and quiet and they are just tromping through your place cause they still think it's empty?

How tired do your knees get crouched down keeping low and behind available cover?

What is your breathing like?

Does the sweat make your eyes sting or is it fucking up your glasses?

The .22 is smart, and it's real, and although some might challenge your hip firing drills I'll leave that alone and simply leave you with the improvements, that regular practice with the real thing makes, and ask you to spend some time thinking about the things I have mentioned and consider that if you really want valuable tactical skills then you should consider professional training from the kind of people who are experienced in the type of skills you are wanting. Don't go to a cop for military combat training and vice verse.

VR is cool and if you can't get the real thing from real pros in real environments it can help in some ways.

But it's a good thing to remember, in real life, you don't get banned for wall hax (y)

And this post of mine is for others, as well as yourself :)
 
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