Recommendations needed: 2016 Cheap entry into surround sound?

Zarathustra[H] said:
I appreciate all the assistance. I have lots of learning to do!
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One last thing,remember what I told you is highly subjective (if they will be good enough for you). Once they are set up and audyssey tells you good things and you are happy with the sound then start looking into room treatments, these are cheap additions to your room that can also be decorative. Not required but it's a cheap way to improve listening.

Single best thing to do for sound is upgrade your LCR, that won't be cheap though.
 
Trimlock said:
One last thing,remember what I told you is highly subjective (if they will be good enough for you). Once they are set up and audyssey tells you good things and you are happy with the sound then start looking into room treatments, these are cheap additions to your room that can also be decorative. Not required but it's a cheap way to improve listening.

Single best thing to do for sound is upgrade your LCR, that won't be cheap though.
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Appreciate the recommendation. Would you spell out the LCR? I googled it, but it turns up a lot of guns and dice games, and I'm pretty sure you aren't talking about either of those :p
 
Trimlock said:
That looks similar to my distances.

well for your LCR it shouldn't matter much, they are directional so as long as you have them pointed at the "sweet" spot (your spot) you are going to be fine with the space. Bass on the other hand, being non-directional depends hugely on room size. I can pressurize my room (similar to yours) with a single Dayton um18 and an inuke3000dps, you double my room size or increase the ceilings and you'd need to add another but my mains would still be fine.
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Yeah, my room size is only ~19x12ft, but I suspect I will need more bass power than would typically be needed in a room that size due to the large opening that never closes to the front hall on the left, and the large opening without doors to the dining room on right side of the back wall.
 
Trimlock said:
Lol love that dice game!!!!

Left/center/right

Also called mains.
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Ahh, yeah I see what you mean. I feel.it would cost a bunch to get much more out of my LCR's, especially considering I picked up what 10 years ago would have been ~$800 in speakers for $80 on Craigslist
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Yeah, my room size is only ~19x12ft, but I suspect I will need more bass power than would typically be needed in a room that size due to the large opening that never closes to the front hall on the left, and the large opening without doors to the dining room on right side of the back wall.
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Open rooms are hard to get a perfect with bass response, if you don't want to spend a lot then put the subs near by in a corner and that should give your sitting position good bass feel.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Ahh, yeah I see what you mean. I feel.it would cost a bunch to get much more out of my LCR's, especially considering I picked up what 10 years ago would have been ~$800 in speakers for $80 on Craigslist
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I'm not sure how much these went for back then but the better the speaker goes up in price considerably. I paid $900 for mine a year ago and that was with a $150 off per speaker. I'm very happy with them but they are MUCH larger than your infinities too.

Speaker technology has improved a lot since then. I'd say, get used to these now, in the future if you decide to upgrade then upgrade based on your budget. Speakers can be a big upgrade but most of the time that's only for people who treat this as a hobby.
 
Trimlock said:
Granted my mains are more sensitive so I'm unable to make a fair comparison.
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Interesting stuff.

If I find that my receiver isn't powerful enough, is there a way to add a power amp between the receiver output and my LCR's to boost it even further? What kind of power amp would I need for that, and, well, are they expensive?
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Interesting stuff.

If I find that my receiver isn't powerful enough, is there a way to add a power amp between the receiver output and my LCR's to boost it even further? What kind of power amp would I need for that, and, well, are they expensive?
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Pretty much yes to everything. Your receiver has a pre out for only your left/right I think (maybe center but that's on you to check lol) this bypasses your receivers amp and does a signal pass through to the power amp and connect your speakers to them. Seeing as these are rated at 200watts RMS you could hook them up to a 250watt rated amp and still be kosher. Those amps how ever have a price premium, seeing as these are consumer speakers you should stick to consumer power amps. Don't break the bank going down this road, monoprice and parts express has VERY affordable options.

The best brand I would recommend is Emotiva if you wanted to go for the better product.
 
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Trimlock said:
Pretty much yes to everything. Your receiver has a pre out for only your left/right I think (maybe center but that's on you to check lol) this bypasses your receivers amp and does a signal pass through to the power amp and connect your speakers to them. Seeing as these are rated at 200watts RMS you could hook them up to a 250watt rated amp and still be kosher. Those amps how ever have a price premium, seeing as these are consumer speakers you should stick to consumer power amps. Don't break the bank going down this road, monoprice and parts express has VERY affordable options.

The best brand I would recommend is Emotiva if you wanted to go for the better product.
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Well, the one I was going to get, looks like it only has pre-outs for zone2 and subwoofers, so no dice.


So there is no way to take an already amplified signal, and further amplify it, additively?
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Well, the one I was going to get, looks like it only has pre-outs for zone2 and subwoofers, so no dice.


So there is no way to take an already amplified signal, and further amplify it, additively?
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Nah not that I know of anyway, if there was I doubt it'd be cheap. Either get a more expensive receiver (4200) or an also expensive pre amp.

But I'd recommend trying it out first and then if it isn't working out sell the receiver on Craig's list and upgrade.
 
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Trimlock said:
Nah not that I know of anyway, if there was I doubt it'd be cheap. Either get a more expensive receiver (4200) or an also expensive pre amp.

But I'd recommend trying it out first and then if it isn't working out sell the receiver on Craig's list and upgrade.
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I found the following data in the Sound and Vision review of the receiver:

Code: 
0.1% THD    1.0% THD
2 Channels Continuously Driven, 8-ohm Loads    112.8 watts    126.1 watts
2 Channels Continuously Driven, 4-ohm Loads    139.2 watts    164.3 watts
5 Channels Continuously Driven, 8-ohm Loads    69.9 watts    78.8 watts
7 Channels Continuously Driven, 8-ohm Loads    47.4 watts    57.9 watts

Am I reading this right, in understanding that the ability of these receivers to output their stated power depends on how many channels that are in use? I had assumed they were independent of each-other...

It seems like there is a lot of false advertising going on in this industry...

Either way, I had originally planned on using the 6th and 7th channels on the receiver to drive my Zone2 in the kitchen. Looking at the above table, I feel like I am probably better off using the Zone2 pre-amp outs and sparing the amp that load, and separately amping the kitchen speakers with a little Lepai amp or something.

This would have the benefit of easily being able to control volume in the kitchen, but the drawback that it is much more difficult for me to run RCA cables there than speaker wires. Maybe I'll just use a wireless extension. (This makes me cringe though, I try to avoid everything wireless like the plague, as I find wired to be more reliable)
 
Another question,

Does the fact that I have better LCR speakers than my original plan alter anything when it comes to the surrounds?

I think I've already established from this thread and others that the little KLH 980's that came with the house are pretty much recycling-worthy, so I don't plan on using those.

The original plan called fro the Dayton B652-AIR's as primaries, and the smaller B452's as surrounds.

Maybe I should install a set of Dayton B652-AIR's as surrounds now? The are a little big to try to hang on the wall, but maybe that is a better idea?

Or maybe there is something else all together I should be considering?

I know that for movie watching the surround channels really don't need to be that beefy, as the effects don't generally require it, but this setup will also be used for stereo music listening, and I wonder if I'll benefit from better surrounds.
 
Oh, and one more thing:

What do you guys use to level your speakers?

Maybe it's because I live in a house built in the 1920's, or maybe it's the house that jack built, but the floor around where the fireplace is is decidedly uneven, causing the left channel speaker to rock back and forth a bit.



I could shim under the feet with pretty much anything, I guess, but are there any considerations here I may not be aware of? Any solutions that work better than others?

Thanks,
Matt
 
Also, it turns out I accidentally ordered the AVR-x1300W not the AVR-x1200W. (I must have been tired)

The differences seem minor at best:

  • 5Ghz wifi instead of 2.4: I wasn't planning on using Wifi at all. I'm a wired guy.
  • More auto lip sync delay (500ms vs 200ms): I think 200ms would have been fine.
  • RC Select (changing inputs while in standby): This could be useful I guess, if I ever use the internal TV speakers again
  • DTS:X / DTS Neural:X: I don't know if this is particularlyu useful or not.
  • Playback of high resolution audio files (DSD 5.6 Mhz - vs. 2.8 Mhz): Well, I don't own any DSD content, so this is wasted on me.

The biggest deal to me seems to be Denon's claim that they have improved the output stage of the amps for better sound quality. It's still rated at 80w, but maybe this will be somehow better. It's still the same level of Audyssey as well...

Either way, I only paid $20 more for the 2016 version vs the 2015 version, so I'm not horribly upset. My budget isn't THAT tight.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Oh, and one more thing:

What do you guys use to level your speakers?
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Check your speaker "feet" first. Many speakers let you unscrew each foot to alter its given length in order to accommodate uneven floors. If your speaker doesn't have these, you could always add them: adjustable spike feet.
 
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Zarathustra[H] said:
I know that for movie watching the surround channels really don't need to be that beefy, as the effects don't generally require it, but this setup will also be used for stereo music listening, and I wonder if I'll benefit from better surrounds.
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No, listen to them first then decide for yourself if you should upgrade. I doubt you'd need more then those though.

Zarathustra[H] said:
I could shim under the feet with pretty much anything, I guess, but are there any considerations here I may not be aware of? Any solutions that work better than others?

Thanks,
Matt
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Don't over think it, even it out anyway you can, Z06 made a good recommendation. Use what ever you have.

Zarathustra[H] said:
I found the following data in the Sound and Vision review of the receiver:

Code: 
0.1% THD    1.0% THD
2 Channels Continuously Driven, 8-ohm Loads    112.8 watts    126.1 watts
2 Channels Continuously Driven, 4-ohm Loads    139.2 watts    164.3 watts
5 Channels Continuously Driven, 8-ohm Loads    69.9 watts    78.8 watts
7 Channels Continuously Driven, 8-ohm Loads    47.4 watts    57.9 watts

Am I reading this right, in understanding that the ability of these receivers to output their stated power depends on how many channels that are in use? I had assumed they were independent of each-other...

It seems like there is a lot of false advertising going on in this industry...

Either way, I had originally planned on using the 6th and 7th channels on the receiver to drive my Zone2 in the kitchen. Looking at the above table, I feel like I am probably better off using the Zone2 pre-amp outs and sparing the amp that load, and separately amping the kitchen speakers with a little Lepai amp or something.

This would have the benefit of easily being able to control volume in the kitchen, but the drawback that it is much more difficult for me to run RCA cables there than speaker wires. Maybe I'll just use a wireless extension. (This makes me cringe though, I try to avoid everything wireless like the plague, as I find wired to be more reliable)
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It is being misleading but that's because there were very defined rules for regulating receivers back in the 70's (or maybe 80s?) that was never updated. One of the reasons to get a higher end receiver these days is to get pre-outs for all of your channels so you can power amp them and at times get a marginal more power in the process if you didn't want to amp each individual channel.

I didn't use the Zone 2 because it seemed to be MUCH more of a PITA to deal with. So I did the same and purchased a small 2x channel 50 watt amp.

Don't be afraid of wireless, you are going to have enough wires going on behind this damn thing, wireless will be a damn godsend. Unless you have terrible wireless signal there, it works just fine.
 
Trimlock said:
lol it's a trap!

You keeping the other sub? You have two sub hookups.
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I don't have another sub (yet).

I was going to buy the Dayton kit with the B652-AIR's for up front, the C452 in the center, the B452's for the back and a SUB-1200 kit, but because I found those infinity speakers on Craigslist, I never pulled the trigger on it.

The plan was to stick with the cheap SUB-1200 even after this, but then I found that SVS sub being discontinued at a steal of a price. There were only 4 left on Amazon so I pulled the trigger...

So, now I still need rear surrounds (if I don't just keep my existing KLH 980's for the rears) and as my next project a set of speakers and a small sub for my ZONE2 in the kitchen.
 
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I'm a huge fan of SVS subwoofers, and yes, you got that one for a helluva price. I prefer the tight punchy bass of sealed subs like yours. It's the older version of mine (in sig). You're in for a very pleasant listening experience.

I spent a whole lot more on my DAC/amp than I ever expected, so definitely feel your budget busted pain.
 
Commander Shepard said:
I'm a huge fan of SVS subwoofers, and yes, you got that one for a helluva price. I prefer the tight punchy bass of sealed subs like yours. It's the older version of mine (in sig). You're in for a very pleasant listening experience.

I spent a whole lot more on my DAC/amp than I ever expected, so definitely feel your budget busted pain.
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I like SVS, even with this guy you will want to keep it close.

Looked up the specs, it looks like this guys sweet spot for a cross over is 150hz. That's pretty good.
 
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Trimlock said:
I like SVS, even with this guy you will want to keep it close.

Looked up the specs, it looks like this guys sweet spot for a cross over is 150hz. That's pretty good.
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Hmm. Intersting. My towers can go down to 35hz though. Would I want to set it that high?

Is the best approach still to just set it at max, and let audyssey do its magic? Does Audyssey also try to balance the volume level of the sub through the pre-outs? What is the best approach then. Set sub volume to max as well and let Audyssey adjust?
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Hmm. Intersting. My towers can go down to 35hz though. Would I want to set it that high?

Is the best approach still to just set it at max, and let audyssey do its magic? Does Audyssey also try to balance the volume level of the sub through the pre-outs? What is the best approach then. Set sub volume to max as well and let Audyssey adjust?
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SVS has a neat little tool called Merlin. It provides setting suggestions for SVS subwoofers and specific speakers.

https://www.svsound.com/pages/merlin

The page is loading slowly, right now. Not sure why.
 
Yeah, I can't get it to load right now. The page loads slowly, and when it finishes I just get a static missing image icon and text that says "loading". will have to look at it later.
 
When it works, you'll see a drop-down menu that lets you choose the brand and model of your speakers. Then, it'll generate 2-3 recommended subs along with a list of settings for 2- and multi-channel audio setups. Pretty cool tool.
 
Commander Shepard said:
When it works, you'll see a drop-down menu that lets you choose the brand and model of your speakers. Then, it'll generate 2-3 recommended subs along with a list of settings for 2- and multi-channel audio setups. Pretty cool tool.
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Hehe. Hopefully the Sub I bought is one of the recommended ones :p
 
What would you guys get for the surrounds? The B652-AIR's or a set of Micca mb42x's?

The Micca's seem to get all around better reviews, and are smaller, but they have rear ports which may mean they will sound bad so close to the wall as I will need to have them, and they don't appear to have any easy threaded mount spots, like the Dayton's do.

The Dayton's have the mounting hangers on them, which may make them easier to hang, but they are so big, that it might be impractical as I would need them pointed 90 degrees, parallel to the wall they'd be mounted to.

I could get some of those cheap VideoSecu stands off of Amazon for the rears, but then I'd have to splice the speaker wires coming out of the wall up near the ceiling, and run the wire down to them.

Are there any good and fast rules when it comes to speaker wire splicing?

Thanks,
Matt
 
I inquired about Merlin to the SVS customer service email. They got back to me:

Sorry for the trouble, the web guys are making some changes but it should be back up within a few hours.

Sorry for the bother!
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Commander Shepard said:
The SVS guys are the best with customer service!! (y)
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Now, hopefully they keep obsoleted models like the SB12-NSD I bought in the Merlin system for configuration help down the line, and don't just treat it like a sales tool, and drop models as soon as they are no longer selling them.
 
If you don't see your sub in the recommendations, look for the SB-2000. I think the only difference between it and yours is the amp. The SB-2000's is a bit more powerful.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Hmm. Intersting. My towers can go down to 35hz though. Would I want to set it that high?

Is the best approach still to just set it at max, and let audyssey do its magic? Does Audyssey also try to balance the volume level of the sub through the pre-outs? What is the best approach then. Set sub volume to max as well and let Audyssey adjust?
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Sheppard has answered your other questions but I wanted to approach this, your tower frequency rating.

Yes, the woofers can get low but at abysmal SPL and if you try to push high spl on the low low frequencies with tiny woofers you will bottom them out or wear them out more. This rating is more or less not reliable and I would NOT rely on them outputting 35hz well at all.

You know how we're talking about the power usage of amps and your speaker loudness? That mostly matters with frequency as you go lower, you don't need a lot of power to get louder higher frequencies which is why people try to cross over higher if they can. There is still more to this but I'm mobile so I won't get much more into this subject.

Just don't rely on that 35hz rating too much.
 
Awww, that little SVS would look so cute next to my Rythmik FV15HP :p.

FV15HP.jpg


Great price on the SVS by the way, just giving you a hard time.
 
96redformula said:
Awww, that little SVS would look so cute next to my Rythmik FV15HP :p.

FV15HP.jpg


Great price on the SVS by the way, just giving you a hard time.
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You must have a pretty large room to fill, or really like bass. :p

Granted, I mostly have experience with near field setups, but the subs I ahve used in the past have been TINY by comparison, and been able to produce way more bass than I feel I need.
 
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Z - Merlin is working now!

EDIT: Well, not quite. Getting there. They must've had some serious problem with their site, today.
 
Commander Shepard said:
Z - Merlin is working now!

EDIT: Well, not quite. Getting there. They must've had some serious problem with their site, today.
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Yeah, I got the flash thing earlier too, but it still doesn't load all the way. I don't get the sub until Thursday, so no rush, but I AM curious.

Edit:

And it is up! They didn't have the Primus 360's in their database, but I understand the Primus P363 are mostly the same, and for those they recommend a crossover at 60hz, with a Low Pass Filter Slope (dB/octave) of 12.

I'm not quite sure what that last one is. I thought the crossover was more or less a low pass filter. What's this slope?
 
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I just checked, too. 'Bout time!

I never understood that slope thing, either. If you shoot'em another email, I'm sure they'll explain.
 
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