Extreme watercooling kits...Still worth it with Closed loop coolers performing very well?

S

sram

[H]ard|Gawd
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I like my current cooler you see in my sig, and I'm really tempted to get this:

http://shop.xs-pc.com/xsp/RayStorm-Twin-D5-RX480-V3-WaterCooling-Kit_52305.html

http://www.ebay.com/itm/XSPC-RaySto...630580?hash=item25c60e8634:g:z-sAAOSwh2xX~kZb

for my new kaby lake build. But, is it really worth it with closed loop coolers performing extremely well such as the Thermaltake Water 3.0 Ultimate 360mm AIO


?

It takes out the fun to get an AIO, but with performance that can be hardly outperformed, I'll just get it. There is no need to waste money needlessly. My ambient temp is actually my biggest enemy here. I don't think I'll benefit from going very extreme.

And no, I don't really plan to cool something else other than the CPU. Maybe I will, but I don't think so.
 
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For CPU only loops, probably not anymore, unless you plan to go overkill so that fans speeds constantly stay low. A high end AIO will achieve similar temps (albeit with higher and noiser fan speeds)

I don't think you'll get much - if any - better overclocks with a custom loop than on a top end AIO anymore. At least I didnt.

My 3930k hit 4.8Ghz using my Corsair H110i GTX, and it won't go any higher using my custom loop, but it is MUCH quieter, especially at load.

With the 110i GTX it was very peaky, frequently revving up and getting noisy, even under rather light loads.

So, if you care about noise, a overkill large radiator custom loop is still the way to go...

And if you add in a GPU in the loop, that's where custom loops really kill it these days. I used to use AIO's attached to my GPU's in the past, and I got nowhere near the temps as I do with a fullcover water block.

Core temps on my Pascal Titan never go above 36C at full load....
 
I kinda of expected that. I think I will just get an AIO specially that my i7 7700 will be delidded.
 
I'm a newbie to all this, but having come into it all when AIOs were really coming into their own as performance contenders in the last couple years, what I've seen is this:

Custom loop watercooling has never been justifiable from an economic standpoint. The point of diminishing returns lies between AIO coolers and custom loops. You gotta wanna do a custom loop for its own sake to make it "worth" it, because the performance delta will not justify the price delta. This is becoming more true every day, as not only are AIO solutions getting better and more affordable, but also that high-octane hardware is getting less and less power hungry and wasting less energy as heat.

I will still watercool every computer I build from this point on, of course, but I won't do it under the illusion that I'm spending my money smart.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
I'm a newbie to all this, but having come into it all when AIOs were really coming into their own as performance contenders in the last couple years, what I've seen is this:

Custom loop watercooling has never been justifiable from an economic standpoint. The point of diminishing returns lies between AIO coolers and custom loops. You gotta wanna do a custom loop for its own sake to make it "worth" it, because the performance delta will not justify the price delta. This is becoming more true every day, as not only are AIO solutions getting better and more affordable, but also that high-octane hardware is getting less and less power hungry and wasting less energy as heat.

I will still watercool every computer I build from this point on, of course, but I won't do it under the illusion that I'm spending my money smart.
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Yeah, I partially agree.

But the value proposition to me really.lies in two things.

Firstly, how much do you value low noise. If low noise is important to you, the best you can do is go lower end, and install passive fanless heatsinks. Nothing will ever be quieter than that.

If - however - you value both high end overclocked hardware AND acceptable noise levels, customwater loops are almost a must.

Mine is good in this regard, but I wish my pump were quieter. Either I am.more bothered by noise than most, or I have a bad pump, as I've heard people call the D5 pump "silent", but mine is anything but. Still quieter than anything I had pre-custom loop.

The second value proposition to me, was when I wwnt 4k. I absolutely hate SLI/CFX setups, so I wanted to go 4k with a single GPU. A custom water loop was thus a must the get absolutely everything I could out of my Pascal Titan.
 
The main selling points (imo) of a custom loop over a good AIO are:

Bling - it's custom baby, you can pimp it out as much as you like!

Ability to cool a GPU - Even with good airflow through the case my 1080 STRIX OC with the stock heatsink would throttle after gaming for a while. In my custom loop it never hits 50c.

Noise - If you've got the space for the rads you can make a damn near silent loop that will perform as well as any AIO for the CPU and still get the benefits above.
 
These are good points too. I guess it does come down to what you intend to cool, but in the CPU-only and strictly performance category, AIO units are a fantastic price/performance point.
 
AIO are great if out of the box they will do what you want them to do. If all you want to do is cool a single component, then they make a huge case for themselves. They are everything you need, in one complete ready to go package. No reason to remake the wheel.


You want to look at custom when your requirements can't be met by an AIO solution. I wanted parallel loops with QDC for all components, I wanted the res, pump and radiator surface to all be independent from each other. No AIO was going to offer me that. I paid the cost up front for that level of flexibility. But that is all I was buying.
 
Sustainable loop temps due to a larger volume of coolant, slightly lower temps due to the ability to customize flow rates for your application, overall customizability of your loop configuration to meet your needs, even from one build to the next....from a pure performance standpoint, in terms of above ambient cooling, you can't beat a custom loop. Period.

Custom loop all day long, and then some.

I use an AIO for my test bench to make sure hardware is working before I move it into a build and onto customers, but......for my personal rigs, I'd never use one.
 
sram said:
Is that an insult to AIO?
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Nah, just a statement of fact.

Apart from those who are old school and were water cooling using VW transmission radiators back before there was a custom watercooling parts industry, most of us got into it over time, beccause we started with AIO's and then moved in that direction.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Nah, just a statement of fact.

Apart from those who are old school and were water cooling using VW transmission radiators back before there was a custom watercooling parts industry, most of us got into it over time, beccause we started with AIO's and then moved in that direction.
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started with the ghetto mods using heater cores and aquarium pumps to kits to custom. now id rather not have to fuck with everything and use aios. they've gotten so much better over the last few years!
 
pendragon1 said:
started with the ghetto mods using heater cores and aquarium pumps to kits to custom. now id rather not have to fuck with everything and use aios. they've gotten so much better over the last few years!
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I'm the opposite. I was drooling over all of those custom water cooling builds back in the day with their aquarium pumps, showerhead bong coolers, VW transmission radiators, etc. etc. and wanted to build one, but never had the time.

Over the years as custom loops became more commoditized and you could buy special "water cooling parts" I priced it out a few times, always thought it was initially affordable, and then added all the fittings and accessories and minor parts, and it always drove it over my "responsible max budget". I even once planned out a build with a submersible pump at the bottom of a HUGE 55 gallon drum, in a separate room from my computer. I figured it would be quiet, and I may not even need radiators if I use the 55 gallon drum itself as a huge heatsink. Never did it though.

Until finally in 2016 I sucked up the cost and built it into my case, as I was tired of the noise. The fans on my Corsair H110i GTX where just too damned loud.
 
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thesmokingman said:
Closed loop coolers are similar to training wheels...
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Pretty much this. And a custom loop solution doesn't have to be expensive. I for one eschew all the pricey connectors and chrome custom "bling" parts as I don't give a rats ass about shiny expensive bits for looks... I want performance. (Not knocking those that do like to go this route and pay for it - that's their choice!) Plain old hose clamps over standard pressure fittings have worked just fine for me for years.
 
hell, zip-ties in a function of form build work too! that's how my red-mode is held together, block and hoses.
 
Supercharged_Z06 said:
Pretty much this. And a custom loop solution doesn't have to be expensive. I for one eschew all the pricey connectors and chrome custom "bling" parts as I don't give a rats ass about shiny expensive bits for looks... I want performance. (Not knocking those that do like to go this route and pay for it - that's their choice!) Plain old hose clamps over standard pressure fittings have worked just fine for me for years.
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I dunno, we must be on different wavelengths about "expensive." A CPU block, GPU block, pump and rad total up to about $300, and you can go higher... That's more expensive than any other single part of most people's PCs.

There are definitely savings to be had by skipping the bling, but that really doesn't leave the remainder "cheap." XD
 
Never said anything about cheap. Water cooling isn't cheap, otherwise lots of more folks would go there. But then again, for a PC enthusiast, it's not what I would consider prohibitively expensive. At least not if you avoid going after all the bling accessories and looks over function. It's a one time investment in most parts that will easily carry forward into multiple builds/upgrades. Yes, an AIO can be relatively inexpensive, but to me they just don't do what a good custom loop does when it comes to overall flexibility, performance, reliability, ease of maintenance and reusability. AIO's have a market, it's just doesn't extend to include me as well as many others enthusiasts that want a LOT more function/performance and are willing to take the time, trouble and expense to attain it.
 
I've always preferred a custom loop because you can customize it. It just simply looks better to me. I don't care about the cost. Plus, I personally cannot stand the hideous AIO tubes.
 
I have a Swiftech H-240x, came with overall good parts for the cost and is fairly simple to expand if I decide to add in whatever my next GPU is. I wanted a custom loop but didnt have the time when I was building or shopping to mess with it and figured this was a great "best of both worlds" deal and thus far it has been wonderful. I would have enjoyed putting together a decent loop but not having put many together I didn't want to mess with it and take the time. No you dont need to spend a fortune to build one unless you want all of the bling but you do have to have the time to research and put it together (if you have not been doing it regularly or for a while).

I like the Corsair ones and similar but I did not want the thing drying up after 3 to 5 years and being completely locked in. Not knocking the product as I know they are good for their intended purpose I just wanted something better without taking too long to assemble, bleed and maintain.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
I dunno, we must be on different wavelengths about "expensive." A CPU block, GPU block, pump and rad total up to about $300, and you can go higher... That's more expensive than any other single part of most people's PCs.

There are definitely savings to be had by skipping the bling, but that really doesn't leave the remainder "cheap." XD
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But aside from motherboard and gpu blocks, the individual pieces of a loop can be re-used for many years and many new builds. Radiators and all the fittings required aren't likely to wear out too quickly, same story for CPU blocks and you can usually find mounting hardware for new sockets later on (I think I bought my Rasa when i was still on socket 775, and I could mount it on my i7 3930k tomorrow if I wanted to.) Pumps are also wear items, but unlike an AIO I can swap out my D5 when it dies and keep re-using the rest of my loop.
 
GPU full coverage blocks are stupidly expensive for what they are. sadly that is the one component that is not really reusable. the rest there is no reason to change out unless it has worn out (pumps), cracked (fucking reservoirs), or you figured out how to go bigger (rads). tubing is cheap for softline, and hardline if setup properly doesn;t have to be replaced.

so i look at the cost of good custom setup like a case, a mostly one time cost that last over multiple builds.
 
capt_cope said:
But aside from motherboard and gpu blocks, the individual pieces of a loop can be re-used for many years and many new builds. Radiators and all the fittings required aren't likely to wear out too quickly, same story for CPU blocks and you can usually find mounting hardware for new sockets later on (I think I bought my Rasa when i was still on socket 775, and I could mount it on my i7 3930k tomorrow if I wanted to.) Pumps are also wear items, but unlike an AIO I can swap out my D5 when it dies and keep re-using the rest of my loop.
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Yep, that's one definite advantage of custom loop over AIO; you can reuse lots of it.

I'm just playing the devil's advocate because as has been said there's a market for closed loop coolers; if you're in the phase where you're deciding which to buy, the custom loop will have a massive upfront cost compared to an AIO.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
Yep, that's one definite advantage of custom loop over AIO; you can reuse lots of it.

I'm just playing the devil's advocate because as has been said there's a market for closed loop coolers; if you're in the phase where you're deciding which to buy, the custom loop will have a massive upfront cost compared to an AIO.
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When you grow out of AIO, you go to a real custom loop that you can keep reusing indefinitely. AIO units don't last forever, eventually the pumps will die and their performance is only slightly better than the top aircoolers. And AIO can and are known to randomly leak. With a full loop, that can obviously happen too but we can leak test before putting into action and thus have great confidence that it won't leak. And with a custom loop, you can design it so that the parts that would be prone to leak are put in a place that would be safest, like the pump/res at the bottom of the case where they would do as little harm as possible. There are many options available in a custom loop for aesthetics, performance, utility and price, the options are endless.

That's why I wrote AIO are like training wheels.
 
thesmokingman said:
When you grow out of AIO, you go to a real custom loop that you can keep reusing indefinitely. AIO units don't last forever, eventually the pumps will die and their performance is only slightly better than the top aircoolers. And AIO can and are known to randomly leak. With a full loop, that can obviously happen too but we can leak test before putting into action and thus have great confidence that it won't leak. And with a custom loop, you can design it so that the parts that would be prone to leak are put in a place that would be safest, like the pump/res at the bottom of the case where they would do as little harm as possible. There are many options available in a custom loop for aesthetics, performance, utility and price, the options are endless.

That's why I wrote AIO are like training wheels.
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Yep, AIO has short term benefits such as lower initial cost, not having to learn about custom loops and not having to deal with the fear of getting it wrong and soaking your computer.

Having gone through the process and made my first one, I feel I can say that - yes - the up front cost is higher, but once you have all the parts, incremental costs and upgrades down the line are much cheaper.

That, and installing everything was actually much easier than I thought it would be. it took some time, because I had to mod my case to make the over-sized radiators I wanted to use fit, but if you stick to the radiator sizes the case manufacturer claims fit, this should be much easier. With a bit of common sense, I never had any wet accidents. (At least not catastrophic ones)
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
That, and installing everything was actually much easier than I thought it would be. it took some time, because I had to mod my case to make the over-sized radiators I wanted to use fit, but if you stick to the radiator sizes the case manufacturer claims fit, this should be much easier. With a bit of common sense, I never had any wet accidents. (At least not catastrophic ones)
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Added emphasis. I'm still using a TJ07 for my water setup, and had to fabricate and modify a lot of crap to get my system set up. These days, you can buy a case that's all ready to go with whatever custom water stuff you want to use, in any configuration you want to use it, and get everything set up in a matter of hours with literally a screwdriver and pliers.

I can also vouch for the ease of long term upgrades. My system was built in September 2007, and has been completely re-built once (when the 2500k released). I've upgraded my motherboard twice, CPU 3 times, CPU block once, GPU and GPU block probably 3-4 times, changed coolant once during the rebuild (top up maybe every 6 months). Everything was simple because I have quick-disconnect fittings.

If I were building a new system today, here are 3 things I would definitely do:

1) use QD fittings to make upgrades easier (removable motherboard tray is also great)
2) use 2 pumps in series so that if 1 fails the system still works
3) spend the money for premium, high pressure, low-noise fans

I failed to do item 3, and while Yate Loons are (were?) great for the $$$, they're getting noisy and will probably be the next thing I replace.
 
Nimisys said:
GPU full coverage blocks are stupidly expensive for what they are. sadly that is the one component that is not really reusable. the rest there is no reason to change out unless it has worn out (pumps), cracked (fucking reservoirs), or you figured out how to go bigger (rads). tubing is cheap for softline, and hardline if setup properly doesn;t have to be replaced.

so i look at the cost of good custom setup like a case, a mostly one time cost that last over multiple builds.
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yeah gpu blocks are just ridiculously expensive for, like you said, what you're getting: a part that can't be re-used. you'll be lucky if you can find somebody who will buy a GPU block 2nd hand without a card already attached
 
Nimisys said:
GPU full coverage blocks are stupidly expensive for what they are. sadly that is the one component that is not really reusable. the rest there is no reason to change out unless it has worn out (pumps), cracked (fucking reservoirs), or you figured out how to go bigger (rads). tubing is cheap for softline, and hardline if setup properly doesn;t have to be replaced.

so i look at the cost of good custom setup like a case, a mostly one time cost that last over multiple builds.
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Reality said:
yeah gpu blocks are just ridiculously expensive for, like you said, what you're getting: a part that can't be re-used. you'll be lucky if you can find somebody who will buy a GPU block 2nd hand without a card already attached
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Speaking of this problem, have any of you ever tried Alphacool's GPX series of GPU blocks?

They try to provide a partial solution to this problem, by selling a universal reusable GPU block, that mates and helps remove heat from a separate fullcover metal part, so that when you upgrade GPU's you can keep the block, and just replace the metal fullcover part with a so called GPX kit, to keep the costs down.

The solution looked pretty good to me, but I have really seen any good comparisons to - say - an EK Fullcover block to know if they suck or not.
 
those alphacool GPX blocks are too ugly for me to use lol

also, can people stop buying mid-range cards and slapping $120 dollar water blocks on them. spend the extra 120 dollars and get an enthusiast card if you can
 
Reality said:
those alphacool GPX blocks are too ugly for me to use lol
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I don't build my systems to be pretty. I build them for performance. In fact I usually shop for cases that don't have windows at all. I don't care. My current case (a Corsair 750D Airflow) does have a window, but it's under my desk with its window shoved up against the wall. The interior is only ever visible when I disconnect all the wires and pull it out.

I water cool for performance and silence. I couldn't give a rats ass about appearance.

Reality said:
also, can people stop buying mid-range cards and slapping $120 dollar water blocks on them. spend the extra 120 dollars and get an enthusiast card if you can
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If you look at it strictly from the perspective of performance, then you are right, you'll get more performance by spending the money it takes to watercool a lower end card on instead getting a higher end card. So from this perspective, it makes no sense to watercool almost any GPU other than a Pascal Titan, or maybe a GTX1080 right now.

People watercool for many reasons though. A popular reason is silence. Buying a higher end GPU doesn't get you silence.
 
Zarathustra yeah I've only ever put blocks on enthusiast cards (7970s, and my 980 Ti), so I'm in the camp where you'd pretty much only buy a waterblock for a highend card

also, i personally like my build to have my own style added to it, but obviously other people don't care if their build is ugly or not
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Speaking of this problem, have any of you ever tried Alphacool's GPX series of GPU blocks?

They try to provide a partial solution to this problem, by selling a universal reusable GPU block, that mates and helps remove heat from a separate fullcover metal part, so that when you upgrade GPU's you can keep the block, and just replace the metal fullcover part with a so called GPX kit, to keep the costs down.

The solution looked pretty good to me, but I have really seen any good comparisons to - say - an EK Fullcover block to know if they suck or not.
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I have two Rasa universal GPU blocks from my old 6850s, just found them again. Looking at an old 7970 air cooler and wondering how well it would work to mill a flat spot and mount the block to air cooler over the die. I wonder how well it would work as a poor man's full coverage block. Might be something I'll mess with here in a week or so
 
Nimisys said:
GPU full coverage blocks are stupidly expensive for what they are. sadly that is the one component that is not really reusable. the rest there is no reason to change out unless it has worn out (pumps), cracked (fucking reservoirs), or you figured out how to go bigger (rads). tubing is cheap for softline, and hardline if setup properly doesn;t have to be replaced.

so i look at the cost of good custom setup like a case, a mostly one time cost that last over multiple builds.
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I hate how expensive GPU blocks are, but.....sometimes you get really lucky. EVGA tends to use the same pcb layout quite often, especially for the Classy. The 780 / 980ti and now the 1080 Classy have all used the same block.
 
Get a BIG radiator and enjoy silence was my way and I never regretted it, cooling the 2nd rig now, 2 years old...dont think I need a new one next 10-15 years, honestly.


My next step is finally fitting the VRM blocks ( custom ) to safe some air cooling need and dB there.

Silent Computing on a high level is achievable, but not with AIO.
 
BitMaster said:
Get a BIG radiator and enjoy silence was my way and I never regretted it, cooling the 2nd rig now, 2 years old...dont think I need a new one next 10-15 years, honestly.


My next step is finally fitting the VRM blocks ( custom ) to safe some air cooling need and dB there.

Silent Computing on a high level is achievable, but not with AIO.
Click to expand...


This was my plan as well. And it has mostly worked.

In the summer I still have to turn the fans up a little more than I had hoped, but I think that problem will go away when I replace this old 32nm hexacore at 4.8Ghz. I have no idea how much power it's pulling and heat it is dissipating, but it has to be significant.

These days the loudest thing in my case is my water pump. I got an XSPC D5 Pump/Res combo because I heard that D5's were quiet, but mine hasn't quite been that quiet. Maybe I got a bad one? It has this pitched hum, despite me installing it with a ton of noise dampening rubber parts.

I have been considering replacing it with something quieter, but I'm not sure what that is.

Some say they like Switctech's MCP655 PWM pump, but my understanding is that the MCP655 is just a D5, and I'm not sure how much good PWM will do me, as manually altering the pump speed right now, doesn't seem to do much to the noise level, just changes its pitch a bit.

Maybe I'm just putting too high demands on what "silent" is?

My fanless Streacom case for my HTPC is truly silent, and it is eerie powering that thing on with absolutely no noise at all.
 
The MCP655 is just a PWM D5, and changing the speed does not really change the pump noise. That being said, my hearing is mostly shot anyways and I can't hear mine to begin with. I honestly can't hear the difference between 20% (1000rpm) and 99% (5000rpm)
 
Nimisys said:
The MCP655 is just a PWM D5, and changing the speed does not really change the pump noise. That being said, my hearing is mostly shot anyways and I can't hear mine to begin with. I honestly can't hear the difference between 20% (1000rpm) and 99% (5000rpm)
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On mine, which is a non-PWM version, the only difference I hear between the dial settings 1 through 5 is that the pitch is higher at the higher RPM's. The overall volume, IMHO, stays the same.
 
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