Microsoft Sued By Employees Who Developed PTSD After Reviewing Disturbing Content

IMO, the majority of the responsibility here falls on Microsft. They should ensure these people get professional guidance/counseling to minimize any unwanted psychological impact.
Doesn't take a genius to tell that these stuff can mess with a person's mind. Most people's mind are not wired to be able to look at these stuff 5 days a week without any reaction.

I guess I should sue my old high school and school district for PTSD.

When I was a kid in High School, you didn't have to pay for Drivers Ed like you have to now. You got to sign up for it and it was just one of your classes.

In addition to talking about the rules and regulations of the road, laws, etc, the driving part, testing and the simulator, they made us watch films that showed the most horrific crashes you've ever seen. Kinda like a scared straight type situation. I'm talking crushed Semi Truck drivers taking their last breaths. Car full of teens mangled beyond belief. One guy was folded in half having his entire back broke screaming in agony. I'm sure it scared a lot of kids. Of course I am kidding about the PTSD.

We are a nation of over-emotional cry baby carebear millennials. It's sickening.

I over heard a table of college kids at dinner this past summer and the conversation they were having was startling. Both the girls and the guys were discussing with each other if they were gay or not and if they liked boys or girls. 20 something year old guys discussing if they were going to suck dck or not. I couldn't believe it and still don't.

SixFootDuo said:

I guess I should sue my old high school and school district for PTSD.

When I was a kid in High School, you didn't have to pay for Drivers Ed like you have to now. You got to sign up for it and it was just one of your classes.

In addition to talking about the rules and regulations of the road, laws, etc, the driving part, testing and the simulator, they made us watch films that showed the most horrific crashes you've ever seen. Kinda like a scared straight type situation. I'm talking crushed Semi Truck drivers taking their last breaths. Car full of teens mangled beyond belief. One guy was folded in half having his entire back broke screaming in agony. I'm sure it scared a lot of kids. Of course I am kidding about the PTSD.

We are a nation of over-emotional cry baby carebear millennials. It's sickening.

I over heard a table of college kids at dinner this past summer and the conversation they were having was startling. Both the girls and the guys were discussing with each other if they were gay or not and if they liked boys or girls. 20 something year old guys discussing if they were going to suck dck or not. I couldn't believe it and still don't.

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Why is seeing gore okay but talking about sex not okay?

SixFootDuo said:

I guess I should sue my old high school and school district for PTSD.

When I was a kid in High School, you didn't have to pay for Drivers Ed like you have to now. You got to sign up for it and it was just one of your classes.

In addition to talking about the rules and regulations of the road, laws, etc, the driving part, testing and the simulator, they made us watch films that showed the most horrific crashes you've ever seen. Kinda like a scared straight type situation. I'm talking crushed Semi Truck drivers taking their last breaths. Car full of teens mangled beyond belief. One guy was folded in half having his entire back broke screaming in agony. I'm sure it scared a lot of kids. Of course I am kidding about the PTSD.

We are a nation of over-emotional cry baby carebear millennials. It's sickening.

I over heard a table of college kids at dinner this past summer and the conversation they were having was startling. Both the girls and the guys were discussing with each other if they were gay or not and if they liked boys or girls. 20 something year old guys discussing if they were going to suck dck or not. I couldn't believe it and still don't.

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Please read it.

He was pulled from his job to go sit and view images/video for content that violates their service, which can include animal/human sex, mutilated bodies, child pornography etc. These are things most people can't look at, some can. But just because I am more capable of handling something than you are, does not make you weak, it makes you not the same as me. I feel like we spend most of our time just comparing eachother instead of dealing with things and looking at them objectively.

And for the 20 year olds, I heard the same conversations in middle school lol.

As a company, MS needs to figure out how to create this as a job, not sure it could be advertised. Like how do you "looking for someone to browse random users photos and videos to look for illegal content which may include blahblahblah". Apply within!

I had to look at all of that and worse when I worked at the Art Institute of Dallas. Some of those kids first experience with broadband was at the school. I've seen the kiddie porn, the beastiality, elderly transexuals fucking, videos of self-castration and the worst shit Germany and Japan can churn out. These people are fucking cry babies.

sboucher said:

Hey, see that tank over there that might have enough H2S left in it to kill you. I want you to go over there and clean it. PPE? Nah, you don't need it. Don't like it? Go find another job, bum.
Vs.
Having all the proper training, and PPE, and procedures in place by the company to ensure you can do the job safely.

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I'm not sure how you'd train for this position. I don't even know what kind of training you could receive to go through this kind of job.

It's not that I'm unsympathetic or that I think I'm 'tuff' enough to handle the job. I wouldn't take it either. But we're in a free society. He can find other positions, he can create his own screening outsource company and hire others to view it, he could become part of the political system and try to enact laws that govern this kind of work. But, naw, he just went in and filed papers cause fuck it, the other options are too hard. That's also not to say companies haven't caused real and grievous harm to workers, of course they have, but I just don't see an option of suing MS on this one.

After thinking about it, these guys may have been talked into suing, like by a wife. Once the lawyer heard about it, he saw the deep pockets and that was that. Greed motivated.

Hornet said:

IMO, the majority of the responsibility here falls on Microsft. They should ensure these people get professional guidance/counseling to minimize any unwanted psychological impact.
Doesn't take a genius to tell that these stuff can mess with a person's mind. Most people's mind are not wired to be able to look at these stuff 5 days a week without any reaction.

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Problem is, all we are hearing from is the lawyer for the plaintiffs. we aren't hearing Microsoft's side here. We aren't hearing how maybe this thing isn't the way this lawyer is trying to sell it. I'm just saying, so far it's a one sided story. But that does seem to be all that some folks have to hear in order to make a judgement call.

Who was the "team" that put together the video and where and how did they do the research...

Hi All

I guess we will have to wait and see what Microsoft has to say, and what the courts say if and when it goes to trial. Could get thrown out, or could get settled. Time will tell.

Shotglass01 said:

I'm not sure how you'd train for this position. I don't even know what kind of training you could receive to go through this kind of job.

It's not that I'm unsympathetic or that I think I'm 'tuff' enough to handle the job. I wouldn't take it either. But we're in a free society. He can find other positions, he can create his own screening outsource company and hire others to view it, he could become part of the political system and try to enact laws that govern this kind of work. But, naw, he just went in and filed papers cause fuck it, the other options are too hard. That's also not to say companies haven't caused real and grievous harm to workers, of course they have, but I just don't see an option of suing MS on this one.

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I was a Combat Engineer for 4 years while I was waiting on my wife to get her citizenship so I could go back to MI work. While I was an Engineer I heard about EOD, Explosive Ordnance Disposal, they do the little shit like taking care of training ordnance left by soldiers in the field cause it get's dropped, lost, dumped, whatever. EOD also got big in the last 15 years dealing with IEDs and shit, remember the move The Hurt Locker, those guys were EOD. But this was before the wars and the big thing was every four years EOD travels around and sweeps campaign sites to make sure Ted Kazinsky's wana-be don't blow up some golden haired politician and his wife with the fake tits.

As part of the screening process for my application to EOD, I had to do this test where they put me in a heavy EOD suite, and a protective mask, and make me walk around for about 30 minutes carrying a cinder block. It wasn't that hard but it did what it was supposed to do, got me hot, sweaty, and breathing hard cause the gas masks really do limit your air intake so exertion makes it harder to breath easy, get enough air. So that puts you in the mood for their little test, they make you wear these bulky gloves and then you have to pick up these small little vials of some chemical, I think it was just water with a die in it, but you move them from one little holder to another. It was sort of delicate work and you are still breathing hard and uncomfortable. The point was, they want to see if you can deal with a little stress and still perform detailed dexterous work.

So the point of this story, before you hire people for work like this, you check them out. Some people can deal with some shit better than others. It's not always a training thing, sometimes it's an evaluation thing.

I find it odd that MS doesn't have any proper system in place for taking care of its employees in highly pressed jobs.

The people at the police working with the exact same thing got plenty of help if needed and also recommended even tho they dont take the help. Same applies for many other professions. people are not made of stone, no matter what some people may think of themselves.

Megalith said:

I don’t get it. Isn’t this kind of like, a homicide detective suing for being subjected to too many dead bodies? ...

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Without getting proper support, yes!

Dwango said:

I'm perplexed as to why these two wouldn't simply quit the job that was causing them so much stress?

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Like soldiers should quit their job instead of expecting medical treatment if they get wounded?

To me this is crystal clear:
* The job is (potentially) mentally harmful.
* The employer (Microsoft) is obliged to a) inform the workers about the risks involved, and b) provide any means (within reason) to prevent and reduce the result of any such harm.

SighTurtle said:

Why is seeing gore okay but talking about sex not okay?

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Your missing the point. It's not the sexual orientation discussion but the fact that young people are so overly emotional that you see this talk in the first place.

SixFootDuo said:

"the fact that young people are so overly emotional that you see this talk in the first place."

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This is precisely the problem. They have this "unique snowflake" mentality and it shouldn't be pandered to. I've seen horrible and disturbing things on the internet thanks to working in IT for two decades. Ultimately, you learn to live with it and if exposure to a few pictures and videos damages your fragile psyche you need to be in a different line of work. I do agree that Microsoft should have offered some sort of counseling if they had received widespread complaints from people in that job. If its just one or two isolated cases then I'd suggest its a problem with those individuals and they should have asked to transfer out of that job or fucking found something else.

The bottom line is that people don't conform to societal norms when they need to and don't think freely where they should. They are too sensitive for their own fucking good and this behavior shouldn't be encouraged.

Shintai said:

I find it odd that MS doesn't have any proper system in place for taking care of its employees in highly pressed jobs.

The people at the police working with the exact same thing got plenty of help if needed and also recommended even tho they dont take the help. Same applies for many other professions. people are not made of stone, no matter what some people may think of themselves.

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Again, why are people making comments like this when they have only seen one side of the story from the lawyer of the plaintiffs. It's entirely probable that MS does have personnel and systems in place for this kind of stuff and the lawyer is simply claiming they don't or wouldn't use them.

lcpiper said:

Again, why are people making comments like this when they have only seen one side of the story from the lawyer of the plaintiffs. It's entirely probable that MS does have personnel and systems in place for this kind of stuff and the lawyer is simply claiming they don't or wouldn't use them.

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The MS statement says they have a robust plan in place to assist these employees. Which suggests they saw the light (or the pending lawsuit) and have corrected it since then. But in 08 when they started, the plan was more cigarettes. I think Roger from Mad Men was their HR manager.

dethklokworkorange said:

The MS statement says they have a robust plan in place to assist these employees. Which suggests they saw the light (or the pending lawsuit) and have corrected it since then. But in 08 when they started, the plan was more cigarettes. I think Roger from Mad Men was their HR manager.

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You say it suggests they just started their "robust plan". With the way the news is done these days that is a leap of faith I am unwilling to make. You can't fill in the blanks like that with the way the news is written these days. In fact, you have to challenge and check statements that sound factual as well.

I'll bring this up again, this is 2 guys since 2008, what about the other 20, 30, maybe 50 or more employees who have worked this job since 2008? Where is the que of plaintiffs standing behind these guys looking for their own financial justice?

lcpiper said:

So the point of this story, before you hire people for work like this, you check them out. Some people can deal with some shit better than others. It's not always a training thing, sometimes it's an evaluation thing.

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I think this is true, but again, I see this as a far different animal then walking around in a suit. Your brain is about to receive the most horrid and base images and videos of our savagery done onto ourselves and to others. Evaluation might be a step in the process, but this is pretty messed up work.

Olle P said:

Without getting proper support, yes!

Like soldiers should quit their job instead of expecting medical treatment if they get wounded?

To me this is crystal clear:
* The job is (potentially) mentally harmful.
* The employer (Microsoft) is obliged to a) inform the workers about the risks involved, and b) provide any means (within reason) to prevent and reduce the result of any such harm.

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And, while I stick with my statement above, this is far from a war zone where you can literally die. This is not anywhere near as crystal as you may think.

I would be interested to see the dichotomy of this thread and relationship to those who say "only a pussy couldn't watch this stuff" versus those who have actually raised a child and provide for a family.

My guess is the single 20 something year olds are pro "I'll watch anything cause I'm boss". And the 30+ married with kids guys are the ones with the natural feeling to protect and value life. (applies to Gals too if there are some in here).

Dan_D said:

If its just one or two isolated cases then I'd suggest its a problem with those individuals and they should have asked to transfer out of that job or fucking found something else.

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That's the thing, they were forcibly transferred into the program in the first place, denied requests to transfer out, and were not allow to refuse the work. Did you even read the article Dan?

Maybe they were actively looking for new jobs, how do you know they weren't? These guys had families to support, so they couldn't just up and quit.

Here's a little snippet from the article for those of you with the "suck it up snowflake" attitudes that didn't even bother to read the article.

“Plaintiffs have recommended many changes to Online Safety. The list includes mandatory rotations out of the program, for pre-vacation vacations, mandatory weekly meetings with a psychologist with specialized training and authority to remove employees when the content is becoming too toxic, a spousal wellness program, as well as changes designed to lessen the impact of continually viewing toxic images. Some of these items were also recommended to Microsoft in approximately 2007 and 2008,” according to the complaint."

If any of you think any of this is unreasonable for this line of work, you are just as bad as MS on this, and I hope you are never in a position of authority over other individuals. Grow some bloody compassion.

sboucher said:

That's the thing, they were forcibly transferred into the program in the first place, denied requests to transfer out, and were not allow to refuse the work. Did you even read the article Dan?

Maybe they were actively looking for new jobs, how do you know they weren't? These guys had families to support, so they couldn't just up and quit.

Here's a little snippet from the article for those of you with the "suck it up snowflake" attitudes that didn't even bother to read the article.

“Plaintiffs have recommended many changes to Online Safety. The list includes mandatory rotations out of the program, for pre-vacation vacations, mandatory weekly meetings with a psychologist with specialized training and authority to remove employees when the content is becoming too toxic, a spousal wellness program, as well as changes designed to lessen the impact of continually viewing toxic images. Some of these items were also recommended to Microsoft in approximately 2007 and 2008,” according to the complaint."

If any of you think any of this is unreasonable for this line of work, you are just as bad as MS on this, and I hope you are never in a position of authority over other individuals. Grow some bloody compassion.

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No I didn't read the entire article and I don't think all those things are necessarily unreasonable. That said, I still think people are too fucking sensitive for their own good.

sboucher said:

That's the thing, they were forcibly transferred into the program in the first place, denied requests to transfer out, and were not allow to refuse the work. Did you even read the article Dan?

Maybe they were actively looking for new jobs, how do you know they weren't? These guys had families to support, so they couldn't just up and quit.

Here's a little snippet from the article for those of you with the "suck it up snowflake" attitudes that didn't even bother to read the article.

“Plaintiffs have recommended many changes to Online Safety. The list includes mandatory rotations out of the program, for pre-vacation vacations, mandatory weekly meetings with a psychologist with specialized training and authority to remove employees when the content is becoming too toxic, a spousal wellness program, as well as changes designed to lessen the impact of continually viewing toxic images. Some of these items were also recommended to Microsoft in approximately 2007 and 2008,” according to the complaint."

If any of you think any of this is unreasonable for this line of work, you are just as bad as MS on this, and I hope you are never in a position of authority over other individuals. Grow some bloody compassion.

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One was assigned, not both. The article doesn't say the other guy was assigned without choice, only Soto was specifically assigned the job without choice. Being told you need to stay in the position for 1.5 years is not the same as denying requests. Soto was in that position for 4 years after he completed the 1.5, where does it say he applied for another position after the 1 1/2 years and was turned down?

You have read way too much into this article.

It seems MS does have many if not all of the safety/support mechanisms in place for another team and these guys are claiming that their team should have the same support.

Soto and Blauert want Microsoft to provide the online safety team with the same support and protections as the digital crimes unit, which has a larger budget.

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.

First off, exactly how highly skilled were these guys who's job was to watch videos and look at images and written content and correctly decide to;
A: Leave it alone
B: Remove it
C: report it to Law Enforcement

I'm thinking these were not skilled IT people.
Soto did this job for over 5 and a half years best I can tell. I'll bet the pay and benefits were good enough that he knew he wouldn't easily find better. Why else would you stay in a crappy job for this long when he could have found another elsewhere. Even if he had a lot of time vested with MS it doesn't explain why he stayed in it for 4 years beyond what he had to, unless he just didn't qualify for more technical work. Yet these IT companies always have all kinds of in house skills training and opportunities.

Who here, that works or has worked for larger companies like MS, sees something wrong with some of this?

But putting mine and everyone else's judgements aside, we are only getting one side of the story here and until we hear from the other side how can any of us make such certain judgements on a one sided claim from a snake-oil salesman?

Dwango said:

I'm perplexed as to why these two wouldn't simply quit the job that was causing them so much stress? We don't live in North Korea. No one can force you to do a job you don't want to do. You have the option to walk away.

Unless you live in the US where personal responsibility is apparently not a thing these days and/or you feel like this would be a good way to wring some money out of your employer with a lawsuit because you don't really want to work for a living.

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OK, your job is making sure evil fucking people get caught. Your job is screening evidence of bad shit. You quit, you are saying that those evil fuckers get to do what they want. It isn't psychologically clear cut. AS rough as it was you could also develop a heavy sense of responsibility.

Dan_D said:

No I didn't read the entire article and I don't think all those things are necessarily unreasonable. That said, I still think people are too fucking sensitive for their own good.

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Then why are their limitations on what can be posted on this forum?

Maybe you underestimate the vileness that occurs in this world (in your own neighborhood) ?

raz-0 said:

OK, your job is making sure evil fucking people get caught. Your job is screening evidence of bad shit. You quit, you are saying that those evil fuckers get to do what they want. It isn't psychologically clear cut. AS rough as it was you could also develop a heavy sense of responsibility.

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Yea but the one guy that this is about, it wasn't his job. Not sure what his position was but yea I wouldn't do it either. but I have a family to care for so it would put me into a terrible bind for a while.

raz-0 said:

OK, your job is making sure evil fucking people get caught. Your job is screening evidence of bad shit. You quit, you are saying that those evil fuckers get to do what they want. It isn't psychologically clear cut. AS rough as it was you could also develop a heavy sense of responsibility.

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Except that this is not what their job was.

Their Job was to screen this material to ensure that Microsoft Corporation is not found in violation of Federal Law which requires them to look for and remove illegal content from their public facing websites. That was their job.

Just like with my job as an IT worker employed by a Company who has a contract to perform services for the Government. I do not work for the government. The government is not my supervisor and they do not even task me in my daily duties. Now I don't forget who it is that butters my toast, my company writes my paycheck. But my company will not be happy with me if I piss off their only customer so ........

It always helps people who are in these positions to maintain a healthy perspective on their own reality.

For instance, a guy like Sato who has allowed himself to become "invested" in what happens to these people, the victims, and the perps. Let's say one day Sato sees something really vile, calls the cops, he's doing his job. Three weeks later Sato sees more material and it's the same perp hurting more people. How does Sato square this with himself?

If Sato allows himself to become "vested" in the outcome he's going to be hurting when things don't go the right way.

But if Sato maintains the proper balance, remembers that his job is to protect his company, and not to hunt down bad guys, Sato can keep his sanity. If a byproduct of his work is that the world is a better place, Amen. But keeping a proper perspective when faced with situations and positions like this is important and it shouldn't take huge effort on anyone's part. He is part of a team and teams have things they say to each other. The have pet names for their favorite managers, slogans for their Company's least favorite processes, etc. And in situations like this, frequently people come up with little says that help them focus and stay grounded.

"For the Emperor"
"Everybody comes home"
"No man left behind"

This shit always sounds corny until it's you and your brothers saying it. Then it gets real.

Dan_D said:

I had to look at all of that and worse when I worked at the Art Institute of Dallas. Some of those kids first experience with broadband was at the school. I've seen the kiddie porn, the beastiality, elderly transexuals fucking, videos of self-castration and the worst shit Germany and Japan can churn out. These people are fucking cry babies.

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Now imagine if that's the ONLY stuff that came across your screen and you looked at for YEARS. Your stint as a network admin for the Art Institute of Dallas doesn't even compare and it's absurd that you think you had to look at everything they've seen "and worse".

Dan_D said:

That said, I still think people are too fucking sensitive for their own good.

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Oh believe me, I don't necessarily disagree with you on this point, for certain things and to a certain extent. However, what these guys were subjected to seeing is beyond what any reasonable person should be expected to handle.

But I would in fact argue, desensitization of violence and horrific acts is one of the problems we face in society these days. I'm not taking so much about the shit we see in the movies, real life shit that goes on. When you have children, it starts affecting you more. When that shit in France was going on with that asshole that drove a semi into a crowd and killed a bunch of people (a lot of them kids), that really tore me up inside. Seeing those images of small children laying dead on the street covering their little bodies with sheets.. That filled me with grief, followed by a moment of anger.. I couldn't imagine the horror the families must be going through, and what type of individual could do such a thing. This is just what I read and saw on the media. Does that make me a precious little snowflake? No, it makes me empathetic towards other human beings, a trait that should be encouraged and valued in all of us. I try to put myself in these guys shoes. Watch videos or see images of children getting sexually exploited, and violently murdered, then go home to their families.. I'd say anyone who is NOT effected by that has got issues..

Now, violent video games and movies. I love them. No different than the rest of the community here. But like the rest of you, I can separate real life from fantasy. Unlike other people in the world that are too fucking sensitive for their own good.

Uvaman2 said:

I don't think its about that, there was some serious harm risks. But you know I think its more clear when shit happens like this:
http://wiat.com/2016/12/14/alabama-...hed-to-death-by-robot-2-weeks-before-wedding/
Or is that acceptable too?

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Sure, lets use that example...
The employe was not a field tech for those robots... So she had no business working on/attempting to fix them. Second, OSHA requires there to be a local power cutoff (typically within view of the work areas when practical).. And third, the lockout-tagout program. It requires that when maintenance is being done on potentially dangerous equipment that a lock be put through the power cutoff and the person doing the work be the only one with the key.

So in your example the person showing utter disregard for their own safety got killed.

This lawsuit would really be like a street cop having to be explicitly told that the could get shot at on the job, or it's the department fault.

These people knew that the job was deciding what was safe and not safe online. Unless they really need a definition of "not safe" is, or they have never been online before, they damn well knew what was expected of them.

To all the people saying that

Derangel said:

"Just quit" is, quite frankly, shit advice. Especially when it's at a place that pays as well as MS generally does. Depending on a person's family situation that isn't always a viable option. Without actually knowing a person and their situation all you're doing is giving shitty advice by telling them to quit.

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Actually no, it's really not bad advice. It's NOT the employer's job to worry about your family/financial/anything-else situation. It's their job to pay you for your time at work. If you can't handle it, that's entirely fine... Not every person is cut out for every job, and there is no shame in admitting it. But, it's not your employers fault if you can't. For these guys, they should have tried to work this from the Workmen's comp side. If a doctor decided that they were sufficiently needing mental health, MS couldn't do crap about it. If they wanted to be nice, they could have given MS the option of an in house shrink or possible WC rates going up.

But as someone else said, MS pays well... So if they couldn't afford to get a different job... They always had to option of picking up a phone book (paper or digital) and looking for mental help that way.

Hypergreatthing said:

Woah, an online safety "class" that's given by companies that includes video of murder, child porn and bestiality?

I mean talking about it is one thing, showing videos of it is probably illegal and disturbing.

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It wasn't a class. Their job was to watch videos to see if they should be taken down.