The next NCASE project: a Steam Machine-style case (indeterminate)

Well, just want to say I really appreciate the work Ncere and wahaha360 have done on this project.

Gosh I want this BADLY

Hope the project go back to live soon
 
This concept will need a major overhaul with the internals, that's something I still need to work out with Necere.

I am still working on this project on the manufacturing end.

However, since it is near the end of this year, I don't expect to make much progress with the factories (people are already in vacation mode).

There is always next year :)
 
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Thanks for filling us in, I'm very curious where this will lead but this shouldn't be rushed.
 
Necere said:
The fan is essentially acting like a blower because of the duct. I wanted to avoid a blower though, since availability, quality, and noise are all likely worse than a slim fan.
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All pci blowers I have seen are way too noisy and I'm more forgiving on noise than many people. :D
 
Looks like some nice competition for the digital storm bold and falcon northwest tiki. But no possibility of mounting a 120mm aio cooler with slim fans...
 
pixelblue said:
Looks like some nice competition for the digital storm bold and falcon northwest tiki. But no possibility of mounting a 120mm aio cooler with slim fans...
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You can buy the digital storm Bolt 3 case on its own, it's called PC-O5S and it's absolutely massive.
IIRC, the Tiki uses a highly modified version of one of the silverstone cases, but I could be mistaken there.
 
The Tiki is manufactured by SilverStone's OEM division but it's a custom Falcon NW design AFAIK.
 
Ah that might be true. It could loosely be based on one of their cases, but I'd completely trust Falcon NW to spin their own design entirely.
 
Didn't Digital Storm also sell some of the previous Bolt cases, which were smaller?
Would be cool if Falcon adopted this case for the tiki, I prefer the aesthetics of this one.
 
I know the project is halted because of thermal problems around the graphic card,
how feasable (manufaturable at reasonable cost) would it be to cut the case into two separate compartments?
Something like the old sharp x68000, which even now is one of my favorite case. One side will contain the motherboard, the other the gpu, with the pcie cable going through the base.
 
pazoo said:
I know the project is halted because of thermal problems around the graphic card,
how feasable (manufaturable at reasonable cost) would it be to cut the case into two separate compartments?
Something like the old sharp x68000, which even now is one of my favorite case. One side will contain the motherboard, the other the gpu, with the pcie cable going through the base.
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Not really feasible at all. Having the case split in two right down the middle basically means you have to use a 1U power supply and CPU cooler, which would be a much different design and not very good thermally or acoustically.
 
You could still make it more than 63mm thick to be able to use an sfx psu. But it's true that you will be limited for the cpu cooler.
 
If the Steambox design is ever being reconsidered, this might be a big help:

B150M-PIO(L2).jpg


B150M-PIO(L1).jpg


That way you could have this:

8MIYErr.jpg

That particular board has two PCIe x16 connectors, by the way.

CPU and GPU cooling on one side, no PCIe extender needed, easier board cabling. Low profile GPU power connectors would be important if reference design is a goal though. Maybe even a low profile watercooling could be implemented if the case would be designed accordingly (room for dual radiator).

Food for thought, Necere. And we need to keep you munching down these yummy treats !


Over on SFFN we have a topic on these kind of boards, since these have been popping up here and there.
 
Yeah, I saw those boards when they were first shown last year. While they're interesting, I'm not sure how useful they'd be to us. Not having to deal with a separate riser is really the only thing they've got going for them, while the larger size vs. mini-ITX and non-standard form factor limit the appeal for DIY system builders. These seem to be aimed at system integrators, and it doesn't seem likely they'll ever be offered for sale directly to consumers, so it's not really viable for us to pursue a case designed for them.
 
The cooling for CPU and GPU would be on the same side, as could be the PSU's ofcourse. This would make a slimline case with just two or three perforated sides (a horizontal and vertical one or two) possible while still maintaining a good air-cooling performance without the need for fans.

These boards are a little over-spec for mITX, but I don't see a reason why this couldn't be on an mITX board, seeing how much unused and inefficiently used space there is. These boards are like the mDTX boards, OEM boards cheap and simple. But all it takes is one bright star to do something like AsRock did with X99, along with a case to bring out an affordable barebone that could be a high-end gaming console.
 
I'm in on this with Necere, however with different angle on it - the main problem of this new form factor is that it doesn't fit into currently mass produced cases so it can't be mass shipped to stores INSTEAD of mITX and overrule it over single generation.

Unless board manufacturers push this format somewhat themselves it will die off like tmITX is doing.

The thing with all fans facing one side is a plus though since there's no hot air gathering above the gpu in horizontal position.

One last thing missing is that this form factor doesn't look as strict as tmITX - standardized socket and memory locations would let us place the 2.5" drives over the motherboard.


The format that could work with quickly overruling the mITX would be something like adding second slot to mITX like this:

500x1000px-LL-89db5ab6_7dfa8c70_mini-itxmini-dtxmicroatx.jpeg


Regardless of whether it would need a single pcb riser or the second slot would be angled it would fit into most gaming itx case. Using single pcb on second slot would solve the problem of VGA bracket colliding with IO area. Both slots could be pci-e x8 electrically.
 
SaperPL said:
I'm in on this with Necere, however with different angle on it - the main problem of this new form factor is that it doesn't fit into currently mass produced cases so it can't be mass shipped to stores INSTEAD of mITX and overrule it over single generation.
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Yeah, that's basically it. It's not compatible with any current cases, unlike mini-ITX, thin ITX, mini-DTX, etc. which are all ATX derivatives, so it would need to have cases designed specifically for it. That's a pretty high barrier for something that offers limited advantages over existing form factors.

Having the GPU and CPU cooler fans on the same side isn't necessarily better, either, because if you want to use the side panel as intake it means ventilation holes over the entire panel, and that can lead to a greater likelihood of panel warping.
 
Necere said:
Yeah, that's basically it. It's not compatible with any current cases, unlike mini-ITX, thin ITX, mini-DTX, etc. which are all ATX derivatives, so it would need to have cases designed specifically for it. That's a pretty high barrier for something that offers limited advantages over existing form factors.

Having the GPU and CPU cooler fans on the same side isn't necessarily better, either, because if you want to use the side panel as intake it means ventilation holes over the entire panel, and that can lead to a greater likelihood of panel warping.
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Since we were discussing about the LRPC on the mATX thread I thought I'd rather use its proper thread, hehe.

As it is, we were talking about ssd/hdd heat problems... but it seems you are not alone. The Node 202 is also terrible in this regard. And that is with a GTX980, which isn't as power hungry as the GTX780 that you tested it with.

Fractal Design Node 202 Compact Gaming Case | silentpcreview.com

It seems like I have no need to get the case to test anything. But I do not understand why did they put the gpu on the bottom of the case. Makes no sense. Specially since its at the bottom on both sides: doesn't mater whether you put it vertical or horizontal, its always down...
 
Potential case - I want:cool: - I hope the development of this LRPC case get pick back up - I'd buy in a heart beat!!
 
Maybe when the TDP of the GPU + CPU gets lower with future generations, we will revisit this project.

You know, the other day I was just telling Necere how the LRPC, fits better in suitcases compare to the M1.

KmrEpVVl.jpg



Being narrower than the M1, I can get the LRPC and have some space for cloth. The M1 just completely takes up suitcase.

I am also bummed out that this project on halt :(
 
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wahaha360 said:
Maybe when the TDP of the GPU + CPU gets lower with future generations, we will revisit this project.

You know, the other day I was just telling Necere how the LRPC, fits better in suitcases compare to the M1.

KmrEpVVl.jpg



Being narrower than the M1, I can get the LRPC and have some space for cloth. The M1 just completely takes up suitcase.

I am also bummed out that this project on halt :(
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Wahaha360,

Maybe you and Necere need some little motivation or convincing to start back up this console/steam machine style LRPC
project. :D If you and Necere can overcome the impossibles or obstacles with the M1 case, ya'll can overcome the same
with this project. :cool:
 
I think the issue with this idea is that there is already a very niche market for this, but it's already being flooding with competitors, both crowd funded and commercial. The NCASE M1 was unique in that there isn't really a clear substitute for it. It fills a slot in the market nothing else could really fill with its size, shape, build quality, and part compatibility.

With a steam machine style case, we have the Sentry, The Node 202, The RVZ02, DanCase (while being more tower shaped than SteamBox shaped), etc. No case is perfect, yes, but I'm doubtful that it would be worth the time trying to do something better when people would have to choose between the builds that are already similar. The market just doesn't seem big enough to me to warrant that right now. And even then, why should people chose this over the Sentry at that price point? What small change would there be that makes it better? I'd rather see a collaboration with Zaper to make a Sentry v2 like we have multiple iterations of M1s to perfect that shape, rather than competing within our own community with essentially the same chassis.

The only real things I can personally see being feasibly modified to make a case bigger or smaller become very limiting to the consumer, making it even more niche, such as:
SFX Non L PSU Only
Pico PSU Only
Short GPU only
No space for 2.5" drives (AKA M.2 Only)?
Removing support for most other things in the case.

And all of that would just reduce the case sizes by a marginal amount. I don't think its worth it to limit the available options further just to fit into a suitcase better. That isn't what NCASE is about. And even if we look at Hutzy and Firewolfy's projects, the demand doesn't really seem to be there.

Instead, I think we need to rethink the identity of NCASES. The M1 was designed to push the boundaries of SFF computing to get a small build in as elegant and as little compromises as possible, and I think Necere and w360 achieved that. As Linus said, it was going to be hard to reach that level of perfection again.

tl;dr

I don't think this idea is the answer to the problems many people here, w360 included, are having. I think the correct answer here is to instead help out the options already existing succeed, such as the Sentry.
 
I hope this case can come to fruition, I've really wanted an alternative to the Tiki, w/o the crazy price. Hopefully new HBM cards will help drive down GPU power and temps like you both want. I loved the concept of the Tiki, but it's price is discouraging.
 
Tyki said:
I think the issue with this idea is that there is already a very niche market for this, but it's already being flooding with competitors, both crowd funded and commercial. The NCASE M1 was unique in that there isn't really a clear substitute for it. It fills a slot in the market nothing else could really fill with its size, shape, build quality, and part compatibility.

With a steam machine style case, we have the Sentry, The Node 202, The RVZ02, DanCase (while being more tower shaped than SteamBox shaped), etc. No case is perfect, yes, but I'm doubtful that it would be worth the time trying to do something better when people would have to choose between the builds that are already similar. The market just doesn't seem big enough to me to warrant that right now.
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I tend to agree, and it's one reason I canceled the project. Just as as sidenote, there were far fewer options available in this form factor when I started working on it. I started this thread about a week before the Sentry guys started theirs, and I had already been working on it for a long time at that point. The Node 202 and RVZ02 were also announced after I had started on it.

Tyki said:
And even then, why should people chose this over the Sentry at that price point?
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I think some people might've preferred the LRPC purely on the basis of looks and/or aluminum construction. The Sentry has a bit more of an industrial feel by comparison.

Tyki said:
The only real things I can personally see being feasibly modified to make a case bigger or smaller become very limiting to the consumer, making it even more niche, such as:
SFX Non L PSU Only
Pico PSU Only
Short GPU only
No space for 2.5" drives (AKA M.2 Only)?
Removing support for most other things in the case.

And all of that would just reduce the case sizes by a marginal amount.
Click to expand...
I'm actually working on something that's roughly similar in size and shape to the LRPC, but with the following tradeoffs:

  • Short GPU only
  • FlexATX PSU
It is not smaller, however, despite the smaller components; my focus instead is on good overall system cooling and dust control, with moderately powerful parts (e.g., short GPU limits it to GTX 1070 or R9 Nano). To that end, close to 20% of the total volume is dedicated just to fans/airflow.
 
Necere said:
I think some people might've preferred the LRPC purely on the basis of looks and/or aluminum construction. The Sentry has a bit more of an industrial feel by comparison.

I'm actually working on something that's roughly similar in size and shape to the LRPC, but with the following tradeoffs:
  • Short GPU only
  • FlexATX PSU
It is not smaller, however, despite the smaller components; my focus instead is on good overall system cooling and dust control, with moderately powerful parts (e.g., short GPU limits it to GTX 1070 or R9 Nano). To that end, close to 20% of the total volume is dedicated just to fans/airflow.
Click to expand...

I agree with the looks. The LRPC is an all around cleaner looking system. If I saw the LRPC compared to the Sentry in a HTPC setting mixed with all of my media components I'd want to cover up the Sentry.

I can't wait to see how you will implement cooling in the case...maybe some tightly squeezed 80mm fans?

What capacity will the FlexATX PSU be and will it be modular/semi-modular?
 
Tyki said:
And even then, why should people chose this over the Sentry at that price point?
Click to expand...

The Sentry isn't exactly going to be cheap according to their latest estimates ($195 IIRC), so what price point were you referring to?
 
Ca11idus said:
I can't wait to see how you will implement cooling in the case...maybe some tightly squeezed 80mm fans?
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92mm front-to-back.

Ca11idus said:
What capacity will the FlexATX PSU be and will it be modular/semi-modular?
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The PSU is probably the most challenging aspect, since there aren't any off-the-shelf units that will just work. We'll have to get something customized to offer alongside the case. The 500W FSP that iFreilicht has been pursuing is a likely choice.
 
Necere said:
I think some people might've preferred the LRPC purely on the basis of looks and/or aluminum construction.
Click to expand...

+1 ....if this ever happens I'm definitely in for one. I have 2 M1's...one in silver and one in black...best case I've ever owned by far
 
I think that makes sense then. Making some things smaller, but not making the enclosure as small as possible is what defines the vision of NCASE to me. I'd just say remember to make sure the case can fit the weird ITX 1070s so that people don't get discouraged by having to use weaker components.

I'd even say to consider putting a HDMI port to the front of the case for people who want to use it for VR. And maybe even space to put in a 120mm AIO like Kyle did to the 202



I think having the options would define what this case is to most people. Most HTPC builds are very cookie cutter lately, and I think this could break that trend (Cryorig C7 anyone?)
 
Ca11idus said:
I agree with the looks. The LRPC is an all around cleaner looking system. If I saw the LRPC compared to the Sentry in a HTPC setting mixed with all of my media components I'd want to cover up the Sentry.

I can't wait to see how you will implement cooling in the case...maybe some tightly squeezed 80mm fans?

What capacity will the FlexATX PSU be and will it be modular/semi-modular?
Click to expand...

Yup, had this not been cancelled I would definitely have picked it over the Sentry. As it stands I'll be recieving my Dan Case A4 at the end of the year. Slightly different thing since it stands upright instead of flat but I'll be happy to have it in my home theater. I'd love it if something like this worked out because it really does look nice.
 
The EVGA Hadron's 500w PSU was amazing while I had it. I know that they were at some point selling them individually. Is there a way that you could get a hold of EVGA to see if you can get some of those or get have the PSU builder to run a small batch of the same spec'd PSU's? I was running an OC'd 4770k and a GTX 690 in that case and it was great!

92mm fans...so you are making the case wider? I know the original specs were 84mm wide.
 
Tyki said:
And maybe even space to put in a 120mm AIO like Kyle did to the 202
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120mm rads won't be possible in this case.

Ca11idus said:
The EVGA Hadron's 500w PSU was amazing while I had it. I know that they were at some point selling them individually. Is there a way that you could get a hold of EVGA to see if you can get some of those or get have the PSU builder to run a small batch of the same spec'd PSU's?
Click to expand...
I thought about using a 1U PSU, but they're quite long compared to flexATX, which in this design would eat up space that's useful for cables and ease of access. The Hadron PSU was made by FSP as well, so at least in theory the FSP500-50FSPT could perform quite similarly, just in a smaller package.

Ca11idus said:
92mm fans...so you are making the case wider? I know the original specs were 84mm wide.
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Yeah. Like I said, it's not smaller. Actually, it's stouter than the LRPC - not as tall or as deep, but a fair bit wider, which works out to a higher volume overall.

The reason for the added width - besides supporting 92mm fans - is for airflow. This case won't have any vents anywhere except the front and back, which means it needs some extra clearance for the GPU and CPU cooler fans and the walls of the case. A side benefit is that it will also support taller CPU coolers - up to 70-75mm or so.
 
Necere said:
120mm rads won't be possible in this case.

I thought about using a 1U PSU, but they're quite long compared to flexATX, which in this design would eat up space that's useful for cables and ease of access. The Hadron PSU was made by FSP as well, so at least in theory the FSP500-50FSPT could perform quite similarly, just in a smaller package.

Yeah. Like I said, it's not smaller. Actually, it's stouter than the LRPC - not as tall or as deep, but a fair bit wider, which works out to a higher volume overall.

The reason for the added width - besides supporting 92mm fans - is for airflow. This case won't have any vents anywhere except the front and back, which means it needs some extra clearance for the GPU and CPU cooler fans and the walls of the case. A side benefit is that it will also support taller CPU coolers - up to 70-75mm or so.
Click to expand...

I'd thought you could just leave out the PSU out of the case (which take up space in the case) and use an external power adapter. Maybe then GPU (some components like HDDs) would have extra clearance as well as possible add a couple 120mm fans on the GPU compartment to cool the video cards. Just my 2 cents.:cool:
 
mTECHIE said:
I'd thought you could just leave out the PSU out of the case (which take up space in the case) and use an external power adapter. Maybe then GPU (some components like HDDs) would have extra clearance as well as possible add a couple 120mm fans on the GPU compartment to cool the video cards. Just my 2 cents.:cool:
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I'm personally not a fan of external power supplies, both because they limit use of higher-power components, and because they add complexity and cost without much benefit.
 
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