Is there someone else who think that nVidia prices are out of control?

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sblantipodi

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As title.
I really think that nvidia is going crazy.

We went from an high end card (GTX480) sold for 500/600 euros to
GTX580 sold for 600 euros, to a GTX980 sold for 700 euros to a GTX1080 sold for 800 euros.

The high end segment is really going crazy.
I have a GTX980 Ti SLI but I would like to say fuck you to nvidia.
 
I think you forgot inflation, among other things. And your prices clearly include a VAT of around 20%. Also by 980 I hope you meant 980 ti, 980 was certainly not priced that high (600€ was more like it). Here a 980 ti was 750 minimum at release, 1080 was actually 700 minimum so slightly cheaper. Sure shortages make it hard to find at this price but still you can't claim it's a 800€ card. That's custom models or shops raising the price due to shortages. It's possible that high-end prices have increased regardless (haven't done the math). But what do you expect without proper competition?

Of course Titans are an odd ball but they are not 100% targeted at gamers. Btw while the new Titan is 20% more expensive for US customers, it's only 9% more expensive for EU somehow. Previous Titan X : 1200€, current one : 1300€
US prices : from $1000 to $1200

Riddle me this (VAT hasn't changed in a long time so it's not that).
 
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kalston said:
I think you forgot inflation, among other things. And your prices clearly include a VAT of around 20%. Also by 980 I hope you meant 980 ti, 980 was certainly not priced that high. Here a 980 ti was 750 minimum at release, 1080 was actually 700 minimum so slightly cheaper. Sure shortages make it hard to find at this price but still you can't claim it's a 800€ card. That's custom models or shops raising the price due to shortages. It's possible that prices have increased regardless (haven't done the math). But what do you expect without proper competition?
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I expect a fair behaviour from a company like nvidia.
I buy their cards since the first geforce series and with this behaviour in 5 years really few people will be able to afford an high end card.

Titan series is another story and another market, but why pushing 800 euros plus or less for an high end card?
in Italy I struggle to find a medium card like 1070 for less than 500 euros.

this is a shame.
 
I see nothing wrong really, the market have changed dramatically from couple of years to today kind of performance.. in your mentioned Fermi times, the market was aiming at 1920x1080 as high-end and 2560x1440 was barely possible, now we have mid and low-end range cards that smoke 1920x1080 and even are able to do acceptable settings at 2560x1440 with high-end cards being able to do great 4K and VR experiences.. the market have really moved forward even in small steps but things have changed a lot in the technology used to achieve this kind of performance....
 
Araxie said:
I see nothing wrong really, the market have changed dramatically from couple of years to today kind of performance.. in your mentioned Fermi times, the market was aiming at 1920x1080 as high-end and 2560x1440 was barely possible, now we have mid and low-end range cards that smoke 1920x1080 and even are able to do acceptable settings at 2560x1440 with high-end cards being able to do great 4K and VR experiences.. the market have really moved forward even in small steps but things have changed a lot in the technology used to achieve this kind of performance....
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I don't get your point, the only things I know is that I struggle to play 4K with a GTX980 Ti SLI while nvidia claimed that GTX780 Ti was a 4K ready card.
 
Araxie said:
I see nothing wrong really, the market have changed dramatically from couple of years to today kind of performance.. in your mentioned Fermi times, the market was aiming at 1920x1080 as high-end and 2560x1440 was barely possible, now we have mid and low-end range cards that smoke 1920x1080 and even are able to do acceptable settings at 2560x1440 with high-end cards being able to do great 4K and VR experiences.. the market have really moved forward even in small steps but things have changed a lot in the technology used to achieve this kind of performance....
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Yeah, we do get amazing performance and visuals for our money now. And like you said resolution has gone up. Back when Crysis released 1080p wasn't common at all and a 600€ card could barely do 30fps in 1280x1024 lol.
 
kalston said:
Yeah, we do get amazing performance and visuals for our money now. And like you said resolution has gone up. Back when Crysis released 1080p wasn't common at all and a 600€ card could barely do 30fps in 1280x1024 lol.
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this isn't really logical to me.
you are taking in consideration price vs performance but not performance vs time.

in 5 years 4K will be affordable on low end cards and with your reasoning only reach people will be able to afford an high end card :D
 
This is what happens when there is no competition. If AMD was releasing cards that didn't make some buyers bite at a 600+ high end card, then we would still be seeing prices like we did back in the 400 and 500 series generations. A full-fat Pascal for 5-600 bucks, instead of 6-700 for a smaller 104 variant. Once Nvidia started selling their 104 parts as high end solutions, because they can compete with the competition's high end solution with a 104 part, prices were going to get out of control. Why do you think 980ti's tanked once 1070 was announced?
 
By some of your guys logic we should pay millions if not billions for a 4tb HDD today because you know, 30 years ago you would get a few mb's of space in a room sized HDD...
 
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Prices haven't gone up as much as people like to claim. Top of the market now definitely *has* gone up, but including inflation its not as extreme as it might sound. the $300 gpu of 2001 is the equivalent of a ~$500 GPU today (random numbers, but I have done this exercise in the past) So yes, prices have gone up, but they haven't doubled or tripled in real money terms. And thats without bothering to talk about relative performance vs what people "need" these days for the most played games, and how things compare in the mid-range. Do I like Nvidia's practice with the FE? no... I wish they had set the price at $599 for the 1080 with the reference design and let the AIB partners go over that with designs that deserved it, but now that some time has passed the market has kind of settled out where you might have expected if they had done that to begin with. I wish they would make more compelling products in the $100-$200 range, but thats not a market I'm really all that interested in. The point is, when talking about products and where they exist relative to the rest of their contemporary market, prices have not increased so dramatically, and accessibility of performance has gone up (as you'd expect). Maybe if AMD was competitive things would be better, but AMD is just as guilty of pricing high when they're on top as NV is.
 
Supply and demand.
Its the basic of capitalism. it amazes me people can still not get this but easily understand rare Pokemon or trading cards are more valuable than common one ...

If you want the prices to drop don't buy them expensive. If nvidia can still sell them in masses, its not them being crazy but you..
 
Stev3FrencH said:
This is what happens when there is no competition. If AMD was releasing cards that didn't make some buyers bite at a 600+ high end card, then we would still be seeing prices like we did back in the 400 and 500 series generations. A full-fat Pascal for 5-600 bucks, instead of 6-700 for a smaller 104 variant. Once Nvidia started selling their 104 parts as high end solutions, because they can compete with the competition's high end solution with a 104 part, prices were going to get out of control. Why do you think 980ti's tanked once 1070 was announced?
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This is one of the chief reasons. NVIDIA's mid-range card runs with, what used to be a $600, FURY X in the $400-$450 price bracket. AMD had to discount the crap out of their parts to even compete. Why would nVidia drop the prices on their cards when there is no one else in the top-end market? When AMD gets their shit together and finally releases a competitive card nVidia will adjust their price to stay competitive.

At the moment though there is no reason to lower the price of their parts. As others have mentioned the supply is low and the demand is high. They are selling out of their parts at the higher prices so, again, why would they go lower?
 
Actually if you look at new GPU architectures ever since the GTX 780 prices have gone up. The 280-680 prices were all $499. The GTX 780 went to $649, I am not factoring in the Ti series because that is not a new GPU architecture, just an upgraded version of the original. A 25% increase in price is way above inflation. I think its because they have the high end market cornered now and much less competition from AMD.
 
Yes, their prices are increasing without justification and yes, their treatment of their customers has degraded with the Founders Editions.

This is what happens when there's no competition. This is why we need AMD to step up their game.
 
I think the prices are spot on. The Maxwell cards were actually the cheapest "high end" cards in a long time. The performance leap that Pascal offers is more than worth the minor bump in price.
 
One challenge is the range of common resolutions today. From 1366x768 through 3840x2160, a spread of nearly 8x pixels. So the low end cards didn't progress much, while the top end cards stacked on top of the existing products to service $$$ 4K buyers.
 
I'm sure if the store shelves were overflowing with unsold 1070s and 1080s, Nvidia would be concerned...

As it is, they could probably bump the prices up even more and STILL sell out of hardware.
 
schizo said:
Yes, because AMD doesn't have competitive hardware.
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To be fair, if it wasn't for miners, I could get a RX 480 4GB (AIB) for around $210.

Although, the MSI 1060 6GB for $250 makes the decision rather difficult.

Hence why I'm waiting for all the BS to die down around say Oct/Nov.

Then, we'll see what time it is.
 
i guess some folks weren't buying video cards when an x800 pe was the rarest of unicorns and fetched $700+ price tags. in the early aughts availability of high end graphics cards were very unpredictable. this was the paper launch era. well stocked launches became the norm and people are use to that happening.
 
needmorecarnitine said:
i doubt that

u are saying that nvidia doesn't know its own business and that you know more
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Not saying that nvidia doesn't know how to run their shit, but history has shown us that even good companies have run themselves into the ground or out of necessity.

Anyways, this isn't just Nvidia, look at Intel. Without any real competition look what they've done too. I think its safe to say we all need good competition on both fronts to keep prices sane.
 
sblantipodi said:
I expect a fair behaviour from a company like nvidia.
I buy their cards since the first geforce series and with this behaviour in 5 years really few people will be able to afford an high end card.

Titan series is another story and another market, but why pushing 800 euros plus or less for an high end card?
in Italy I struggle to find a medium card like 1070 for less than 500 euros.

this is a shame.
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You can buy 1070 directly from EVGA for 459 €.
 
I dont see the issue.

If you dont like the cards at the price point. Buy something cheaper.

Algrim said:
If you think prices are unfair, vote with your wallet and don't buy them.
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^^ This.

schizo said:
Yes, because AMD doesn't have competitive hardware.
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That doesn't matter. Fury X and 980TI didn't suddenly get cheap did they.

Its the consumers willingness to spend and in what volume that determines prices. That some people that else felt they was entitled to better is another thing.
 
After reading this thread -- it's pretty apparent that the OP has no idea how a global market runs when it comes to products that have no equal. Or other factors like currency conversion, inflation, scarcity. I had a good laugh when he blames miners for the reason he can't get certain AMD hardware. Because it's AMD's fault they are good at something?

nvidia is a for profit company, and they have *the* hottest hardware out there right now, no equal, nothing can touch them. That's worth something, if you were suddenly at the helm of nvidia or a major shareholder, would you keep the same stance as "it's too expensive" ? Imagine running the business, and you figuratively have people lined up around the block of your building with cash in their hands throwing it at you. You would do exactly what they are doing in this situation, profiting from your engineering marvals.

People buy a titan 5 years ago, and they have it their mind that the titan from there on out should never be more than what they paid all those years ago. Nevermind that here in the US, every dollar in your pocket is typicall worth 3% less purchasing power every 365 days. Over a few years, it makes total sense that it's 100-200 dollars more expensive based on simple inflation alone.

An intelligent "fuck you" to nvidia is to simply be quiet and not purchase their hardware. You complain about AMD's market as well due to the "miners"... at that point you aren't pissed at nvidia specifically, you are just pissed you can't afford the latest and greatest. No shame in that by itself, but getting online to whine and complain when you have what appears to be zero understanding of market forces, supply/demand, basic economics... well there's quite a bit of shame in that I'd say.

in a magical theorteically world, say AMD drops a titan killer tomorrow - you really think it would be affordable considering we have hard proof that the public is willing to pay (quite a bit) for those levels of performance.

You are viewing the cutting edge world of GPUs through lenses that are 5 years old... the world doesn't work like that .
 
I must say I was surprised by 1080 being a 600/700 part. Should have been at most 550 for the FE.
 
Araxie said:
I see nothing wrong really, the market have changed dramatically from couple of years to today kind of performance.. in your mentioned Fermi times, the market was aiming at 1920x1080 as high-end and 2560x1440 was barely possible, now we have mid and low-end range cards that smoke 1920x1080 and even are able to do acceptable settings at 2560x1440 with high-end cards being able to do great 4K and VR experiences.. the market have really moved forward even in small steps but things have changed a lot in the technology used to achieve this kind of performance....
Click to expand...
By that logic with low end cards you should still only be able to play at 320x200. Just because the technology is newer it shouldn't cost more. It's like saying a brand new car should cost 1.5* more than it did in 90s because it has better technology and features.

*after adjustment for inflation

And yes I think the prices are out of control. The inflation was nowhere near the level with which the prices increased.
. In 2001 I got my absolute hi-end card as it literally became avaialable a few days before I bought it for $250 now a hi-end card like the gtx1080 costs $700. That's almost 300% the price. Meanwhile the inflation was around 80% in the same time period. So a hi end card costs 1.5x more than it did then when adjusted for inflation.
 
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If you think Nvidia's prices are too steep for the product they're selling, invest (buy from) their competitor.

Fairness has nothing to do with it. Nvidia will lower prices (or included greater performance) once they need to. The only rational market force which would force them to "need to" lower prices would be a competitor which outsells them. This presupposes that Nvidia has enough pricing headroom over their production costs such that they can lower their prices.
 
The price set is like CPUs, its the optimal price/volume/profit ratio independent of competition. A competitor is not going to be willing to sacrifice that ratio. You simply see products fitting in where they should in terms of metrics in that range. Just as an iPhone or a Galaxy S for example isn't competing in price ratio.

If you see price increases, its because the consumers are willing to spend more for better. And same goes the other way should it happen.
 
raidflex said:
Actually if you look at new GPU architectures ever since the GTX 780 prices have gone up. The 280-680 prices were all $499. The GTX 780 went to $649, I am not factoring in the Ti series because that is not a new GPU architecture, just an upgraded version of the original. A 25% increase in price is way above inflation. I think its because they have the high end market cornered now and much less competition from AMD.
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And then the 980 was $549, a 15% reduction. How does that figure in? Don't forget the 780 dropped to $499 when the 780 Ti came out at $649.
 
One thing you are forgetting is just how good low end cards are these days. You can buy an RX 470 or RX 480 for less than $200 and play every game at close to max settings at 1080p. This was unheard of in the GTX 480 era.
 
So the way I see it, the "new" high end is almost a different market segment. If you just want to play games at 1080p60 you can get away with a $200-250 card these days and the price/performance in that segment is better than ever. However if you want to play at 2560x1440 or higher, or run 120+ Hz screens or other niche display options, there are now graphics card solutions to do that.
 
Armenius said:
And then the 980 was $549, a 15% reduction. How does that figure in? Don't forget the 780 dropped to $499 when the 780 Ti came out at $649.
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The 980 was also not much faster then a 780 Ti, they were usually within 10% of each other.
 
From what I understand within the industry, part of the reason for costs is that we are no longer seeing the same cost savings/advantages with die shrinks as we once were. Remember we were on 28nm for 4 years and just now shrunk down to 16/14nm FF. I don't know what yields look like, but I imagine that large dies (Pascal GP100 and GP102) on a new node are expensive and R&D costs have to be made back while at the same time production is more costly.
 
All that is completely true, but doesn't explain the recent very high price inflation. That's due to lack of competition from AMD.
 
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sblantipodi said:
I expect a fair behaviour from a company like nvidia.
I buy their cards since the first geforce series and with this behaviour in 5 years really few people will be able to afford an high end card.

Titan series is another story and another market, but why pushing 800 euros plus or less for an high end card?
in Italy I struggle to find a medium card like 1070 for less than 500 euros.

this is a shame.
Click to expand...

Fair? NV is a business not a charity. There is nothing "unfair" about what NV is doing both in pricing and models available. It is not a shame NV came out with new tech that is currently the fastest cards on the market and priced what they think the cards are worth.

As others have said the market supports NV's pricing from low end to halo products. Blame the market and the fact its reacting to new cards with no comp. If consumers thought NV was unfair then the 1080's wouldn't be selling.

High end and halo parts are just that; expensive so only a small set of gamers that can afford them. NV doesn't expect every gamer to grab a 1080 to Titan. If you think the 1080 is too expensive then perhaps you are not a high end gamer anymore.

I truly don't understand the whining in the gaming community on pricing. Those that have been around a long time remember spending $1000's for hardware, even when the performance increase was minimal. You did it cause that is the nature of the enthusiast hobby. You buy the absolute fastest you can afford.

Is it unfair Ferrari's are so expensive compared to a Ford Mustang? Should Porsche lower its pricing just because I want one and its unfair I can't afford a 911? No, that is juvenile. I either look at a lower end/used Porsche or get something I can afford. That or I change my priorities so I can some how afford what I want. I don't just demand a company change its pricing to suit my financial situation.

You don't like NV's pricing then don't buy their cards ever again or wait for the market to stabilize. The only way you will see reductions in 10X0 cards is when the Ti or next gen release. As mentioned multiple times until AMD pulls out a high end card jack and shit will happen to pricing.
 
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