New Samsung 4k for everyone.

coolhandm3 said:
I have the ec9300 too and use pc mode with game mode, you find the input lag ok for you? My Leo Bodnar sometime shows as low as 29ms for lag but can jump up to 45ms.... ugh... Even when it shows 29ms it feels much closer to 45ms.
Click to expand...

It's fine for me but just borderline acceptable. I was hoping the 2016 sets had less or the same input lag under PC mode, but going from that rtings comment they may have more

Do you think I'd be ok with the C6? I know the B6 has more input lag
 
x3sphere said:
It's fine for me but just borderline acceptable. I was hoping the 2016 sets had less or the same input lag under PC mode, but going from that rtings comment they may have more

Do you think I'd be ok with the C6? I know the B6 has more input lag
Click to expand...


If you use C6 in game mode, I think it will be OK ( 34ms ) but if input lag is an issue for you, your way way better off getting the Samsung KS8000, KS9000 series of tv's IMHO. Those have next to no lag that I can feel ( tried the ks8000 ) and they are better picture then last years JU and JS series tvs.

20ms input lag on those Samsung's is a world of difference to me then the oled's I have tested and own. I like playing SF3 3rd strike and we all know that game needs good input response, the Samsung I can play perfectly fine on but not on the oled's ;)
 
Hmm, I was thinking of still getting the new OLED and use it in game+PC mode for general gaming, Doom, Witcher 3 etc and then using my philips 40" for competative gaming, SC2 and L4D2 etc.
 
I'm probably going to get the C6, but decided to delay my purchase into the fall. LG is still offloading the 2015 models and I expect we'll see some significant price drops on the newer models once inventory is finally cleared out.
 
PSA / FYSA:

Current leo bodnar lag numbers mean fuckall for 4k sources other than a ballpark guesstimate: they are only valid for 1080p/720p.

I wish rtings would emphasize this more since they pass themselves off as the authoritative source for TV testing every detail, and it is a rather important disclaimer IMO. Right now its just an obscure footnote response from a user question last year.

Some 4k native TVs are faster at 1080p than 4k depending on mode, while other 4k native TVs are slower at 1080p because they have some extra processing & scaling algorithms for non 1:1 inputs you can't turn off regardless of mode. (take any manf claims with a grain/bag/block/truck of salt per usual)
 
So I got my replacement JS9000, and holy shit it's so much nicer. The discoloration is completely gone. It's like night and day. However, the very first thing I noticed when I turned it on, and it went to that mostly white initial setup screen, there is a single completely dead pixel right in the middle toward the top of the screen. FUCK! My last one had ZERO pixel issues. So now here I am debating whether or not I should send this one back too and risk getting a worse display. :/ I can't really see it that much but I know it's there and I'm a perfectionist and for the amount of money this thing costs, I expect better. But I might get worse next time. I'm so conflicted. :/

What would you do?
 
Keep it. I once was a pixel perfectionist like you, but with 3840x2160 pixels that's practically a pipe dream. I say enjoy what you have. Knowing it's there is the worst part, but you can overcome it. You won't notice it nearly as much after you stop obsessing over it.

I'm glad that your newer one is better!
 
ForgedReality said:
So I got my replacement JS9000, and holy shit it's so much nicer. The discoloration is completely gone. It's like night and day. However, the very first thing I noticed when I turned it on, and it went to that mostly white initial setup screen, there is a single completely dead pixel right in the middle toward the top of the screen. FUCK! My last one had ZERO pixel issues. So now here I am debating whether or not I should send this one back too and risk getting a worse display. :/ I can't really see it that much but I know it's there and I'm a perfectionist and for the amount of money this thing costs, I expect better. But I might get worse next time. I'm so conflicted. :/

What would you do?
Click to expand...


i have 2 dead pixels on mine. literally can not see them once im more then 6 inches from the screen. this is the first time ive ever actually not cared about a dead pixel.
 
Aluminum said:
PSA / FYSA:

Current leo bodnar lag numbers mean nothing for 4k sources other than a ballpark guesstimate: they are only valid for 1080p/720p.

I wish rtings would emphasize this more since they pass themselves off as the authoritative source for TV testing every detail, and it is a rather important disclaimer IMO. Right now its just an obscure footnote response from a user question last year.

Some 4k native TVs are faster at 1080p than 4k depending on mode, while other 4k native TVs are slower at 1080p because they have some extra processing & scaling algorithms for non 1:1 inputs you can't turn off regardless of mode. (take any manf claims with a grain/bag/block/truck of salt per usual)
Click to expand...

Yup, 100% agree with this and my testing shows that last years Samsung's at 4k native was running slower then 1080p for input lag ( about 2 frames slower ) until they updated it through firmware. Nightmare3129 did alot of testing on this with a high speed camera and proved this to be true.

They are making a Leo Bondar 4k tester, it is currently in dev and should be out in the next couple of months and should help us figure out the 4k native input lag finally.
 
coolhandm3 said:
Yup, 100% agree with this and my testing shows that last years Samsung's at 4k native was running slower then 1080p for input lag ( about 2 frames slower ) until they updated it through firmware. Nightmare3129 did alot of testing on this with a high speed camera and proved this to be true.

They are making a Leo Bondar 4k tester, it is currently in dev and should be out in the next couple of months and should help us figure out the 4k native input lag finally.
Click to expand...
This is similar to what I measured on a 40JU7500. I built an input lag and PWM measurement device that used my PC as the video source, so that allowed me to feed any resolution I wanted into a display. It was a prototype, but was within 1 ms of the Leo Bodnar on every display I was able check against. Anyway, on the 40JU7500 with a 4k signal, I saw varied input lag from Leo numbers to 1 frame slower. It looked as if the display had a front and back buffer and it sync'd the front buffer to the input independently of the back buffer. So every time the display re-sync'd it would randomly land in this 0-1 frame of additional lag zone.

Unfortunately that display was stolen in a home burglary before I was able to fully investigate the issue and make sure it wasn't an artifact of using a PC as the input source. Either way, it was indicative of what to expect as a PC user though.
 
jstabb said:
This is similar to what I measured on a 40JU7500. I built an input lag and PWM measurement device that used my PC as the video source, so that allowed me to feed any resolution I wanted into a display. It was a prototype, but was within 1 ms of the Leo Bodnar on every display I was able check against. Anyway, on the 40JU7500 with a 4k signal, I saw varied input lag from Leo numbers to 1 frame slower. It looked as if the display had a front and back buffer and it sync'd the front buffer to the input independently of the back buffer. So every time the display re-sync'd it would randomly land in this 0-1 frame of additional lag zone.

Unfortunately that display was stolen in a home burglary before I was able to fully investigate the issue and make sure it wasn't an artifact of using a PC as the input source. Either way, it was indicative of what to expect as a PC user though.
Click to expand...

Very cool! You making any more of those testers? I would be seriously interested as I find this input lag stuff very interesting :)

So, the Samsung tv's for last year and this year have about a frame more lag in PC mode, as that mode also with UHD Color on gives 4:4:4 chroma. In game mode the best you can get with UHD color on is 4:2:2 Chroma but you get much less lag. For the KS9500 series I show 20ms for the middle bar in game mode and 38ms in PC mode. Game mode is the way to go for sure IMHO for gaming.

If we see that pc mode is 38ms at 1080p, then 4k native is about a frame slower then that, so about 2 frames.

Interesting it has a front and back buffer, I suppose when it is getting a 1080p signal like from the Leo Bodnar and consoles, it must be skipping one of those giving less lag, I always felt native 4k on these tv's was higher lag then 1080p.
 
coolhandm3 said:
Very cool! You making any more of those testers? I would be seriously interested as I find this input lag stuff very interesting :)

So, the Samsung tv's for last year and this year have about a frame more lag in PC mode, as that mode also with UHD Color on gives 4:4:4 chroma. In game mode the best you can get with UHD color on is 4:2:2 Chroma but you get much less lag. For the KS9500 series I show 20ms for the middle bar in game mode and 38ms in PC mode. Game mode is the way to go for sure IMHO for gaming.

If we see that pc mode is 38ms at 1080p, then 4k native is about a frame slower then that, so about 2 frames.

Interesting it has a front and back buffer, I suppose when it is getting a 1080p signal like from the Leo Bodnar and consoles, it must be skipping one of those giving less lag, I always felt native 4k on these tv's was higher lag then 1080p.
Click to expand...
It was *extremely* prototype, as in a breadboard with wires leading to the sensor. I've considered finishing it enough to distribute a handful of them in an attempt to build an online database of display input lag and PWM frequencies. But I've always got more projects going on than I can finish. I'll have to dig the prototype out and see how much work is really left on it.

As for the front/back buffer. That was my conjecture. SOMETHING was buffering up to a frame's worth of time between the vsync signal I had in my D3D app, and the actual refreshing of the display. Whether it was my video card (980ti), or the display I can't say conclusively. I do know the other monitors I had on hand did not exhibit that behavior, they were all DP or DVI though, so it still could have been caused by NVidia's HDMI implementation. Like I said though, the display was stolen before I could say with absolute certainty.
 
When you guys say 1 frame slower do you mean the roughly 16ms it takes to render a frame?
 
illram said:
When you guys say 1 frame slower do you mean the roughly 16ms it takes to render a frame?
Click to expand...
More or less. It's the 16.7ms between screen refreshes (for a 60hz refresh rate). So, if Leo Bodnar measured 38ms in PC mode, I would measure anywhere from 38ms to 54.7ms in 4k. I would get consistent measurements for the duration of a "sync", but as soon as the display and PC re-sync (because of power cycling, entering/exiting a windowless game, changing resolutions or refresh rate, etc...) it would get a new random amount of delay in that 38-54.7ms range.
 
another-user said:
mine doesnt look anything like that
2wNWi3G.jpg
Click to expand...
What GPu are you using
 
I received the KU6300 today for use as a monitor. Everything about it has been perfect aside from one thing: the VA smearing. It is terrible. I knew the risks when buying it, but it is damn disappointing when literally everything else ticks all the boxes.
 
bigboss496 said:
I received the KU6300 today for use as a monitor. Everything about it has been perfect aside from one thing: the VA smearing. It is terrible. I knew the risks when buying it, but it is damn disappointing when literally everything else ticks all the boxes.
Click to expand...


That's too bad. Rtings.com has the pixel response times for all the tvs they review. VA generally has slower dark transitions. I have found the Samsung VA's last year and this year are more then adequate though.
 
coolhandm3 said:
Very cool! You making any more of those testers? I would be seriously interested as I find this input lag stuff very interesting :)

So, the Samsung tv's for last year and this year have about a frame more lag in PC mode, as that mode also with UHD Color on gives 4:4:4 chroma. In game mode the best you can get with UHD color on is 4:2:2 Chroma but you get much less lag. For the KS9500 series I show 20ms for the middle bar in game mode and 38ms in PC mode. Game mode is the way to go for sure IMHO for gaming.

If we see that pc mode is 38ms at 1080p, then 4k native is about a frame slower then that, so about 2 frames.

Interesting it has a front and back buffer, I suppose when it is getting a 1080p signal like from the Leo Bodnar and consoles, it must be skipping one of those giving less lag, I always felt native 4k on these tv's was higher lag then 1080p.
Click to expand...



does it mean that we could get 21ms~37ms from the game mode (4:2:2) with 4k native ? i will usually play my pc games on samsung suhd ks8500 in the near future ( haven't buy it yet )

and i tho that the input lag of game mode is 21ms (static) , but 21ms~37ms with 4k native sounds terrible...
 
Has anyone used both a UHD400 and one of these Samsung displays? How does the input lag compare? With the numbers being all over the place, would be nice if someone could shed some light.
 
munkle said:
Well since you are on hardforum, I think you should water cool them.
Click to expand...

Zarathustra[H] said:
Going to have to start a "I Overclocked My Water Cooled TV" thread :p

In all seriousness I just want the damn thing to be quiet.

I've spent a lot of work making my desktop silent with 140mm Noctua Industrial fans spinning down to 430rpm when at idle. It just annoys the living bejesus out of me to hear that high pitched hum come from the One Connect box.

I probably wouldn't even hear it if my rig made a normal amount of noise. In fact, at first I thought it was coming from my computer, and I was tweaking all my fan settings trying to figure out what was making that noise and why.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'll have to start that "I Water Cooled My TV" thread after all...
 
anyone know what todays update did? 1460.

i saw someone mention it made their 8500s hdr look like actual hdr, and the blacks became real blacks. i dont notice any real difference on my 9000
 
Keep in mind samsung fudged the model #s upwards for 2016 (9500/fald=9800/fald, 9000=9500, 8500=9000 etc).

48" js9000 are now down to $800 at BJs, the equivalent 2016 model (ks9500) is going to cost quite a bit more. They are not consistient on size availability by model or region either, kinda weird, no 43" higher end models coming to NA afaik.
 
$800 huh? Hmmm... That is tempting. So there is no difference performance wise between the old JS9000 and the new KS9000 units?
 
Skott said:
$800 huh? Hmmm... That is tempting. So there is no difference performance wise between the old JS9000 and the new KS9000 units?
Click to expand...

As I understand it there has been some model number inflation. The new KS9500 is the old JS9000. The new KS9000 is the old JS8500 and so on...

...or something like that.
 
Hey guys,

i have a few questions regarding the 2016 Samsung KS lineup - 49inch KS8000, KS8500 and KS9000 (49inch KS9000 version is available in germany...)


- PWM, does it kick in at any brightness setting below 100%? Which frequency (low/high)?

- BGR pixel layout? The JS 2015 lineup has it but so does the KS 2016 lineup?

- square or non square pixels? can't find any comments about that

- Reflections, matte/glossy. I know the KS 2016 lineup has the "new moth eye technology" but would you recommend it for a quite bright room? Is there a significant difference to a normal glossy panel?

- 20ms input lag in game mode seems reasonable for a non esport gamer - but i'm still unsure about the 4:2:2 in game mode - significant difference in games?

- are there any know differences in panels between the models and/or sizes? e.g. 49inch KS8000 different panel than 55inch KS8000? -> panel lottery?


Thanks! Great forum, been lurking and reading here for years now! Greetings from germany.
 
There is a new update for JS 9090 ( EU ) vers 1460.4
What's the changelog ? Does anyone knows ?
 
shadowj said:
There is a new update for JS 9090 ( EU ) vers 1460.4
What's the changelog ? Does anyone knows ?
Click to expand...

Nope. Samsung are annoying. They don't provide detailed change logs. They leave us guessing.

Sometimes changes have been apparent and we have been able to quantify them, other times they have been associated with press releases (like the HDR thing) and we've been able to deduce it from there, and other times who the hell knows.

While the lack of detail is really annoying, because we don't know whether or not to choose to upgrade, I have yet to be burned by any of the updates. They have all either offered improvements, or at least not made anything worse. I still keep my TV disconnected from the internet, and only plug it in once every few months and do an update, but only after googling to make sure there isn't a huge downside.

My Samsung TV is just a monitor, so I don't need any of that smart TV connectivity junk, so I just keep it unplugged from the network, and don't connect wifi.
 
Thanks, Zara
I use the tv only as pc monitor as well, and i really wonder if its worth the update
 
Neutra said:
Hey guys,

i have a few questions regarding the 2016 Samsung KS lineup - 49inch KS8000, KS8500 and KS9000 (49inch KS9000 version is available in germany...)
Click to expand...

I'll answer what I can, note that I have the JS9000, but the models are pretty similar.


Neutra said:
- PWM, does it kick in at any brightness setting below 100%? Which frequency (low/high)?
Click to expand...

PWM is indeed used for dimming. The only light level that doesn't use PWM is 100%, and that is bright enough on my JS9000 to scorch your eyeballs out. I keep the backlight at a 7 out of 20.

That being said, the higher end models use PWM with rounded curves or something like that, so it is less noticible than square wave PWM that the lower end models use. I forget where the model number cutoff cutoff between the two types of PWM goes though. What I can say is that on my JS9000 I can't percieve any flicker at all, but I'm not particularly sensitive to PWM.

Neutra said:
- BGR pixel layout? The JS 2015 lineup has it but so does the KS 2016 lineup?
Click to expand...

I have no idea sorry. Tried to take a picture of mine once, but my macro lens wasn't good enough :p

I'm curious why you care though?

Neutra said:
- square or non square pixels? can't find any comments about that
Click to expand...

Again, no idea. Also curious why you care.

Neutra said:
- Reflections, matte/glossy. I know the KS 2016 lineup has the "new moth eye technology" but would you recommend it for a quite bright room? Is there a significant difference to a normal glossy panel?
Click to expand...

I can't speak to the exact glossyness of the newer KS models, but with my JS9000, it is very glossy, and light reflections have not been a problem for me, but I sit rather close. If you use it as a TV and sit across the room, it might be different. From a glossyness perspective I find the most difficult part is cleaning it to keep it streak free. Streaks can be visible on dark backgrounds, and sometimes it is pretty tough to make them go away, even using supposed "streak free" screen cleaner and microfiber towels.

Neutra said:
- 20ms input lag in game mode seems reasonable for a non esport gamer - but i'm still unsure about the 4:2:2 in game mode - significant difference in games?
Click to expand...

First I'd argue that 20ms is fine even for competitive gamers. I call bull on anyone who think they can tell a difference between a 20ms panel and lower input lag. It's all placebo at that level, just like with a large part of the audiophile crowd. The onyl exception would be if your underlying system has bad input lag problems, because input lag is additive. Anything under 100ms total input lag is usually considered OK (but this includes the whole system, mouse, computer, rendering pipeline, game engine, etc. etc. If your underlying system has problems, and the 20ms monitor pushes you above 100ms total, I could see where that would be in issue, but that sounds unlikely, unless you are running Quad SLI or something like that.

As far as dropping to 4:2:2 goes, I have yet to play a game in which I can tell the difference between game mode at 4:2:2 and full 4:4:4 chroma, and I ahve run a lot of games on the screen. On the desktop, reading and typing documents, game mode is noticeable, but only barely. Sometimes I forget to switch back after gaming, and it takes me a while to notice. If I forget to turn on game mode in a game - however - I usually notice almost immediately if it is an FPS. I don't even bother switching in strategy games. I play Civ 5 in PC mode.

Neutra said:
- are there any know differences in panels between the models and/or sizes? e.g. 49inch KS8000 different panel than 55inch KS8000? -> panel lottery?
Click to expand...

Couldn't tell you, sorry.

I will say, that when it comes to size - however - using mine as a computer screen at a working distance of ~2.5ft (~75cm) the 48" is actually a little bit too big. The DPI winds up being a little lower than I would have liked. I've looked at the 40" models, and while I liked them a little better, the JS9000 was the model I wanted, and it didn't come smaller than 48", at least not in the U.S.

Ideally, I think a 4k screen should be in the 42-44" size for desktop use. That creates the most comfortable DPI for use without scaling, which loses you screen real estate.


Neutra said:
Thanks! Great forum, been lurking and reading here for years now! Greetings from germany.
Click to expand...

Keine Ursache!
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I'll answer what I can, note that I have the JS9000, but the models are pretty similar.
Neutra said:
- BGR pixel layout? The JS 2015 lineup has it but so does the KS 2016 lineup?
Click to expand...
I have no idea sorry. Tried to take a picture of mine once, but my macro lens wasn't good enough :p

I'm curious why you care though?
Neutra said:
- square or non square pixels? can't find any comments about that
Click to expand...
Again, no idea. Also curious why you care.
Click to expand...
Chiming in here:

Not all programs respect ClearType AA for text rendering in Windows, so BGR could be an issue depending on the user. I think Apple doesn't do well with BGR at all, compared to Windows. Of course, one could always turn the TV upside down and rotate the image 180 degrees to get RGB, I guess...

Non-square pixels will cause the image to stretch, especially noticeable near the edges. I only think this is an issue on displays using 4096x2160 res, though, not 3840x2160. Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Armenius said:
Not all programs respect ClearType AA for text rendering in Windows, so BGR could be an issue depending on the user./QUOTE]
Click to expand...

It still shouldn't be an issue. Any program that doesn't follow the ClearType method for text rendering (and that would be VERY few of them, mostly really old legacy stuff) would fall back to not using sub pixel font rendering whatsoever. With no SPFR it doesn't make a difference what layout the pixels are. :p
 
Armenius said:
Chiming in here:

Not all programs respect ClearType AA for text rendering in Windows, so BGR could be an issue depending on the user. I think Apple doesn't do well with BGR at all, compared to Windows. Of course, one could always turn the TV upside down and rotate the image 180 degrees to get RGB, I guess...

Non-square pixels will cause the image to stretch, especially noticeable near the edges. I only think this is an issue on displays using 4096x2160 res, though, not 3840x2160. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Click to expand...

Some 16:9 screens are a bit too wide.
Dead annoying.
 
So when I was shopping for a new TV to use a PC monitor, I saw JS9000 and was like "hooooly shit that picture!". It was miles better than my old Samsung 1080p 40" tv. So I bought it. And I'm very happy with it.
But I went to an electronic shop few days ago to buy some other stuff and stumbled upon a 4k OLED tv (not Samsung, can't remember, I think LG). And my jaw dropped. I thought my JS9000 had perfect picture. Holy shit. I'm so getting an OLED screen sometime soon.
 
Guys, is it worth to update to latest version, or not ? Some users says, the colors are improved.....
I'm using the JS9090 only as pc monitor.
Thank you
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
First I'd argue that 20ms is fine even for competitive gamers. I call bull on anyone who think they can tell a difference between a 20ms panel and lower input lag. It's all placebo at that level, just like with a large part of the audiophile crowd. The onyl exception would be if your underlying system has bad input lag problems, because input lag is additive. Anything under 100ms total input lag is usually considered OK (but this includes the whole system, mouse, computer, rendering pipeline, game engine, etc. etc. If your underlying system has problems, and the 20ms monitor pushes you above 100ms total, I could see where that would be in issue, but that sounds unlikely, unless you are running Quad SLI or something like that.

As far as dropping to 4:2:2 goes, I have yet to play a game in which I can tell the difference between game mode at 4:2:2 and full 4:4:4 chroma, and I ahve run a lot of games on the screen. On the desktop, reading and typing documents, game mode is noticeable, but only barely. Sometimes I forget to switch back after gaming, and it takes me a while to notice. If I forget to turn on game mode in a game - however - I usually notice almost immediately if it is an FPS. I don't even bother switching in strategy games. I play Civ 5 in PC mode.
Click to expand...


I just want to tell you that you explained perfectly the issue with input lag and that it is cumulative. Under 100ms total lag is great, if a display has 50ms of lag, more then likely your going alot over that total 100ms total lag number.

I have tried explaining this on soo many different forums, it is great to see someone else get it:)

On that note, for me having two different oleds ( ec9300 and E6 which I returned ), the lag on those at least for console games was too much but the Samsung ks series and ju and js series where perfectly fine for me for console gaming. Alot people would say the 10-20ms difference in lag from the oleds and the Samsungs wasn't alot and indeed it isn't alot but it was pushing me over the boundary of feeling the lag with the oleds.

Also in gaming, I never saw a difference between 4:2:2 and 4:4:4, only on webpages with red lettering.
 
I recently purchased the Sony X800D from Best Buy at 43" 4K HDR. It has a nice picture, blacks are a little grey and washed out but the backlight is very nice with no PWM and the size is perfect for a computer monitor 4k at 43". However I previously had for about a month last year the 48" JS9000 which had an amazing picture across the board, black blacks and really bright and stunning HDR and colors that popped.

I am torn between the two screens at the same price - $800. The Sony HDR has not nearly the pop. I mainly use it to play games like Doom, witches 3, and a few others. Have a gtx 1080 so frame rates are pretty good at 4K. But I also like to watch amazon prime and that is where the HDR matters, and future games will look better also.

Do I go for the better contrast and HDR with samsung? Or the better dpi and no pwm on the sony? Tough call. I have to say I am leaning towards getting the samsung again at $800, as that picture was killer even slightly seeing the pixels.
 
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