From ATI to AMD back to ATI? A Journey in Futility @ [H]

Qualcomm already designs its own GPU IP, but it is targeted specifically at mobile. There would be significant additional work required to scale this technology up from mobile to high performance desktop, but if Qualcomm thought it would have a reasonable chance of success, there's really nothing stopping them from going for it.

However, the market is fairly small, and the R&D intensity is quite high, so it's not clear to me if it would be worth it for Qualcomm, or some other company with mobile GPU IP (ARM, Imagination Tech, Intel, etc.) to jump into the ring.

qualcomm's GPU is/was ATI's IP if I'm not mistaken.
 
This thread has led me to believe if/when AMD goes bust............ we're gonna need a suicide prevention hotline phone number stickied at the top of this forum for a few people here.
Even more so over at sites like AnandTech...
 
Well last time I a got a mac pro tower (2005) got it fully loaded outside of the ram and graphics card, I knew I was going to swap out the graphics card and put in 3rd party ram since it would have been much cheaper.

Problem with today's mac pro cylinder, you can't swap out the graphics cards unless you get them from Apple, and they charge an arm and leg and even a kidney lol.

Actually Apple doesn't sell GPUs for the Mac Pro 6,1 cylinder, aka "nMP" or the "new Mac Pro". They only sell GPUs to third party "Apple Authorized" repair centers. Some of these then re-sell the GPUs trough various channels like eBay for example. But that's a big no-no in Apple's eyes. To Apple, doing something like that is a bit like vomiting on the Pope: very much "verboten".

For those stuck in that ecosystem or even with a Mac Pro cylinder and in need for a modern GPU with more horsepower, the only choice is to buy an expensive external GPU enclosure and a NVIDIA graphics card, like a GTX 970/980/980Ti or TITAN X. There are no OS X drivers for the GTX 1080 as of yet. Something like this might do the trick: Amazon.com: HighPoint Thunderbolt 2 PCIe Expansion Station NA211TB: Computers & Accessories

It's only $849, and add to that the cost of a GPU, and you're at least at ~$1,100 - ~$1,200 for a GTX 970 4GB at an effective PCI-E 4x 2.0 speed.

The only way that something like that is worth it is if you need CUDA processing for Premiere or you need to do heavy 3D rendering, as that PCI-E 4x will be less of a bottleneck then.

Here is something even funnier: the AMD D300 with 2GB RAM has a hard time driving 4K displays. It's slow, choppy, barely usable. If you have a cylinder with D300 cards in it, then you're pretty much SOL.

Apple has screwed over professionals with their cylinder Mac Pro, so badly that many opted to either keep upgrading their old towers or just switch over to a PC workstations.

Even small Apple shops that specialize in upgrading classic Mac Pro towers are now offering their customers alternatives like custom high end workstations from HP, Lenovo, or even custom built.

Not to derail this thread or be off topic, but the way things are going I don't see Apple doing a proper update to the cylinder Mac Pro in the future, as they might even abandon it altogether. It is three and a half years old now, and several generations behind on hardware specs.

Given what I just wrote, AMD will not ship a lot of GPUs to Apple. They will be mostly low-end to mid-range mobile GPUs, and very few high-end mobile GPUs for the iMac. I don't see the Mac Pro going anywhere, except to the cemetery, as Apple has given up on it. Those cylinder Mac Pros don't sell in high volume anyway, so they're not a money maker for AMD.

So making "custom hardware" (aka. rebadge 3 ~ 4 year old GPUs) for Apple is not really profitable for AMD, but more of a pipe dream for Mr. Koduri.

The only one making money here is Apple, as they laugh all the way to the bank because they can get what they want at the price they want from AMD. Actually Apple is more concerned with the price they get those AMD GPUs at than how fast they actually are. Plus they always find cute ways to somehow demonstrate in their presentations that their Macs are superior to the PC.

The market that Apple is going after are folks who buy Macs for their aesthetics and the Apple logo. For most it's not even about OS X, as they don't even know how to use any of the advanced features. OS X is very powerful and you can do a lot just with the built in tools if you're a developer for example. Most Mac users however don't do much beyond browsing the web, wasting time on Facebook, and looking cool at Starbucks with their under-powered/overpriced MacBook Pro.

And no, I am not an Apple hater. I actually own a MacBook Pro and a Skylake based iMac and I enjoy very much using OS X. But that doesn't turn me into an Apple fanboy, and in fact I have a lot of criticism for Apple and how they do certain things. Again, this is about AMD, and not Apple. I was just trying to illustrate that selling GPUs to Apple is not the biggest money maker for AMD.
 
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Qualcomm already designs its own GPU IP, but it is targeted specifically at mobile. There would be significant additional work required to scale this technology up from mobile to high performance desktop, but if Qualcomm thought it would have a reasonable chance of success, there's really nothing stopping them from going for it.

However, the market is fairly small, and the R&D intensity is quite high, so it's not clear to me if it would be worth it for Qualcomm, or some other company with mobile GPU IP (ARM, Imagination Tech, Intel, etc.) to jump into the ring.
I agree with you there that the market for GPU (as a graphic processor) is quite small for any newcomer to invest the huge amount required to be competitive. But perhaps the enterprise market for GPGPU might make it worthwhile for a company like Intel to make serious investment in this segment. By purchasing RTG, they wouldn't need to start from scratch. Instead, they just need to give them enough resources to build upon whatever they already have, and eventually come up with a competitive GPU architecture that will serve both consumer GPU and enterprise GPGPU market.

Of course I'm not familiar with enterprise GPGPU market and I don't know how large it is at the moment, or where it is heading. I'm just judging by what nVidia is doing, they are pushing hard in other areas with stuff like deep learning and automobile application. It seem to me that not even nVidia can rely on consumer GPU market alone.
 
Another amd is not doing bad thing to point out...

A while back i saw an announcement all 3 console makers had put in orders at amd... so the new nintendo, sony and microsoft parts are all amd not nvidia or intel...

Also Amd's stock prices are rising they have gone from 1.60 per share to 4 something per share. This is a sign of momentum gathering... All they will need to do is deliver come june 29th...
 
Nintendo nx is not AMD's. Nintendo is the smaller marketshare of the three though.
 
Also Amd's stock prices are rising they have gone from 1.60 per share to 4 something per share. This is a sign of momentum gathering... All they will need to do is deliver come june 29th...

All it means is that investors think things will get better. Whether they do or not remains to be seen.
 
I call bullshit. The GTX 1080/1070 was just as we expected, it was pretty much maxwell, but with really high clock speeds, I wouldn't call it surprising.

If you take away the marketing hype and new features that are pretty much implemented at the software level, then yes, Pascal is an updated version of Maxwell. This being the GPU business, they couldn't just pull an Intel on us by doing a die shrink and saying: "Here ya go, same as last year's GPU but now it needs less power. It might not run that much cooler, but hey, it's all new - wink wink."

I doubt that Pascal's software features will ever get ported back to Maxwell, just to give people a reason to upgrade.

Oh, and someone said that AMD was very innovative with Mantle, which in turn lead to Vulkan. Very true... Now watch NVIDIA adopt Vulkan as their own stepchild and improve on it to the point where AMD won't be able to catch up performance wise. They did the same with tessellation. It was an ATI thing at first, until it wasn't.

Another amd is not doing bad thing to point out...

A while back i saw an announcement all 3 console makers had put in orders at amd... so the new nintendo, sony and microsoft parts are all amd not nvidia or intel...

Also Amd's stock prices are rising they have gone from 1.60 per share to 4 something per share. This is a sign of momentum gathering... All they will need to do is deliver come june 29th...

Console makers are buying AMD GPUs for two reasons:

#1 - because AMD will sell to them at a very low price - so everyone and their mom is getting a sweetheart deal
#2 - they don't have to put up with NVIDIA and their demands, rules and conditions

For our sake AMD better pull it together.
 
That's typically worst case. Most I see are averaging around Fury which is smack bang between 390X and Fury X... between 980 and 980Ti. Depends on what it's benching on though.
If it is 390-390x it had better be cheaper or equal to... a clearance stock 970 ~ 980 ballpark....... >_>

I see that way too, but I guess all of us have to wait until reviewers get their hands on the card to fully know where it stack against the competition.
 
Nintendo nx is not AMD's. Nintendo is the smaller marketshare of the three though.
there actually is nothing very firm all is rumors at this point but it would not be surprising to see them move back to an amd/ati chip. If they use anything nvidia i would say it would be part of the control pad but chances are high it will be an amd arm part with an amd apu in the new main console but the rumors are they are going to get into cell phone software...

But the only one that has any solid information is sony is using a stronger more optimized apu in the ps4 slim...
 
there actually is nothing very firm all is rumors at this point but it would not be surprising to see them move back to an amd/ati chip. If they use anything nvidia i would say it would be part of the control pad but chances are high it will be an amd arm part with an amd apu in the new main console but the rumors are they are going to get into cell phone software...

But the only one that has any solid information is sony is using a stronger more optimized apu in the ps4 slim...

I'm almost positive there will be nothing AMD about the next Nintendo console. It would be easier to use a SOC than start using multiple chips specially for a hand held device that you can use as a console.
 
AMD has stated that more than once if I remember correctly. I also remember AMD claiming 480X prices will be less than $299. Why wouldn't a $279/$289 390X replacement not be welcomed? Waaay more efficient and possibly a strong overclocker. Other than fanboyism, why would it be mocked?

It is a rumor from Fudzilla AMD Polaris 10 has 390/390X performance so take it with a grain of salt and no where it claim 480X is price below $299, it could be for 480 for all we know. Though I will be concern if 480X is price below $299, it just tells me the performance isn't there to be price at $299.
 
Like I said a few pages ago, I'd just like to see Kyle and AMD find some common ground and end this boycott. Both have had a role in this "feud," with AMD playing a bigger part imo.......seriously, what major company publically condemns a relatively small computer website/forum? Anyway, maybe Kyle will give Roy or whoever a call and offer a beer summit or something ;)
 
This thread has led me to believe if/when AMD goes bust............ we're gonna need a suicide prevention hotline phone number stickied at the top of this forum for a few people here.

:D great article and quality drama. Thank you [H].
 
Like I said a few pages ago, I'd just like to see Kyle and AMD find some common ground and end this boycott. Both have had a role in this "feud," with AMD playing a bigger part imo.......seriously, what major company publically condemns a relatively small computer website/forum? Anyway, maybe Kyle will give Roy or whoever a call and offer a beer summit or something ;)

[H] isn't 'boycotting' AMD. They'll still buy (if not given a test sample) and review the cards. The 'boycott' is only one way, from AMD to [H]. There isn't anything for [H] to make up for. Unless you also mean you don't want [H] to ever report on anything negative AMD (or its employees) ever does or releases/report on any negative, yet newsworthy, story about them (and as the editors/owners of the site - they decide what's newsworthy for the site, not you); which is ridiculous and would be BIASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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[H] isn't 'boycotting' AMD. They'll still buy (if not given a test sample) and review the cards. The 'boycott' is only one way, from AMD to [H]. There isn't anything for [H] to make up for. Unless you also mean you don't want [H] to ever report on anything negative AMD (or it's employees) ever does or releases/report on any negative yet newsworthy story about them (and as the editors/owners of the site - they decide what's newsworthy for the site, not you), which is ridiculous and would be BIASED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You misunderstand, I'm saying AMD is boycotting [H]. And I agree, [H] has little fault in this conflict but why not take the high road and try to end this somehow without having to kiss AMD's ass. Kyle obviously has way more info on this story and might think it's not fixable or doesn't what to after what they have done.
 
You misunderstand, I'm saying AMD is boycotting [H]. And I agree, [H] has little fault in this conflict but why not take the high road and try to end this somehow without having to kiss AMD's ass. Kyle obviously has way more info on this story and might think it's not fixable or doesn't what to after what they have done.

Because it's AMD's job to fix AMD's mistakes, not [H]'s. [H] approaching them to fix this would be kowtowing, plain and simple (and would damage their credibility/believability as being independent/unbiased).
 
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Because it's AMD's job to fix AMD's mistakes, not [H]'s. [H] approaching them to fix this would be kowtowing, plain and simple (and would damage their credibility/believability as being independent/unbiased).


haven't heard that word since my SAT's 22 years go!

Yeah there is no higher ground here, once that door was open by Roy, the only one that can close it is AMD, and ignoring the issue, won't make it go away the problem will always get worse once you ignore it.
 
Just watched the AMD video
and what went through my mind immediately was when he said "We are so excited.....". Way back when I first got out of college and went to a company launch that would require a buy in to join, the guy I went with got up and dragged me out a few minutes in. Why? He said this:
"Whenever you see somebody tell you he's excited, and he looks like a cadaver, you know he's full of shit, and it's going to cost you dearly if you buy into whatever he's trying to sell you. The word 'EXCITED' is over used whenever a business is trying to push a piece of crap. Remember that, because it will serve you well".
And, he's been right 100% of the time. It's a buzzword that people in business use to con their target consumer, and it works great. But it's always, ALWAYS used to sell you something for way more than it's worth.
 
Echoing others here, I am an AMD/ATI fanboy myself, and sadly this news while disheartening, is really no surprise. I haven't personally had anything but AMD/ATI products for my processor and video card solutions since around 1995 for good or ill, and lets be honest there were both shining stars and things that should have been relegated to the refuse bin along those years. Unfortunately I'd already accepted that unless AMD was able to bring out some big guns that my next round of upgrades was going to break an over 20 year streak for me, and what with the recent good from the other camps, and at best in a way silence from the AMD side that is looking more and more like reality. Here is hoping that they can either turn things around or have something amazing hidden up their sleeves, not just for the AMD/ATI fans but for the industry in general.
 
@ nightfly you are correct, its better to show the part than tell people they are excited, that is actually marketing 101 don't talk about it, show it! Again though they did show that its pretty capable in a limited scenario, so what they are doing isn't bad per say, but it does give doubt with the timing of when they have shown it and the huge time gap in the middle of the possible launch.
 
Because it's AMD's job to fix AMD's mistakes, not [H]'s. [H] approaching them to fix this would be kowtowing, plain and simple (and would damage their credibility/believability as being independent/unbiased).

Maybe you're right. I hope Kyle will reply to my comment (#515), would love to hear his opinion.
 
Back on topic, the problem with Polaris is it's not really an upgrade product. Assuming 390X performance and priced less than $299, it still wouldn't make sense for anyone with a 290/290x, 390/390x, 970, or even a 780/780ti to buy one. Now where it does become worthy of consideration is for those building a new system with budget limitations and a desire for high efficiency to save electricity and combat heat.
 
Polaris should do well if its priced right, 100-150 watts for a mid tier card with 390-FuryX performance is not bad, and since there is no competition yet, there really is nothing for consumers to worry about if they are making the "right" choice. Yeah its not an upgrade part for people that already have high end enthusiast cards, but that is such a small market its pretty inconsequential for the time being.

It all hooks on is June 29th the launch date or is that further out......... Cause if its further out, Polaris will have competition. Right now if June 29th is a hard launch date AMD has two months to solidify OEM deals and sell as many cards to end users, which is a fairly good amount of time, given the lead time for OEM's to validate system, (we don't know if AMD has already sent cards to OEM's yet) that will give OEM's one month to stock up, now that one month nV will have to send them their 1060's to OEM's too, so AMD just lost a window of opportunity as OEM's will know what the 1060 will provide in comparison to Polaris and will purchase according. (this is assuming the 1060 is launched just like last year ~ 1q out from the performance tier launch)

Also I really don't believe in the entire TAM thing from AMD, a full VR system is expensive, why would mid range buyers care about VR? Please anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but a good VR system right now or later is going to cost ya a pretty penny. 2k ish? So why would you put in a ~$250 card with such a system? I would pop the extra $150 and get a performance level card.

AMD hasn't shown me much reasoning behind why they are pushing VR to midrange, outside of their cards being capable of doing it, the average costs of VR systems are not going to dramatically drop because you cut $150 bucks off of one component.

And now given that the performance segment is just as big as the mid range section (or close to it) AMD will be getting less margins than nV initially until they get their performance cards out.

The entire article Kyle wrote up makes sense logically, when you start looking at the marketshare, what is going on with Polaris and how AMD has been marketing Polaris.
 
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I last visited the anandtech forum back when it was the "hot deals" forum on the internet, back in the 90s. Then they started cracking down on people posting deals that stacked coupons and such, it got nicknamed "Banandtech" and everybody moved to fatwallet.com. Ahh, memories.
 
Kyle, Great Job! These comments have kept me entertained at work today and I'm sure will deliver through the weekend.
 
Just finished reading the Anandtech thread -- wow. Mass confusion reigning over there -- lots of personal insults/attacks on Kyle, but no real evidence that he is wrong. Guess the idea of "reality" on a tech forum was lost on many.

Even funnier was the last comment I read on that thread: "Other than a few bitter old enthusiasts, no one reads HardOCP." Guess that makes guys in their mid-30s "bitter old enthusiasts", amongst others :LOL:
 
Just finished reading the Anandtech thread -- wow. Mass confusion reigning over there -- lots of personal insults/attacks on Kyle, but no real evidence that he is wrong. Guess the idea of "reality" on a tech forum was lost on many.

Even funnier was the last comment I read on that thread: "Other than a few bitter old enthusiasts, no one reads HardOCP." Guess that makes guys in their mid-30s "bitter old enthusiasts", amongst others :LOL:

I guess I'm a bitter old enthusiast.
 
Just finished reading the Anandtech thread -- wow. Mass confusion reigning over there -- lots of personal insults/attacks on Kyle, but no real evidence that he is wrong. Guess the idea of "reality" on a tech forum was lost on many.

Even funnier was the last comment I read on that thread: "Other than a few bitter old enthusiasts, no one reads HardOCP." Guess that makes guys in their mid-30s "bitter old enthusiasts", amongst others :LOL:

<----forum title

I am fucking bitter! Screw everyone!
 
Just finished reading the Anandtech thread -- wow. Mass confusion reigning over there -- lots of personal insults/attacks on Kyle, but no real evidence that he is wrong. Guess the idea of "reality" on a tech forum was lost on many.

Even funnier was the last comment I read on that thread: "Other than a few bitter old enthusiasts, no one reads HardOCP." Guess that makes guys in their mid-30s "bitter old enthusiasts", amongst others :LOL:

AT forums are generally biased towards AMD, so it's no surprise that they will shoot the messenger if anybody says anything bad about their favorite brand.
 
Even though AMD is boycotting [H], can't they still get review cards from AIB's? Yeah they won't get the early AMD review samples, but the AIB cards should arrive shortly thereafter, right?
 
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