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There is so much propaganda on both sides, i don't see how anyone not directly involved can make an informed decision.
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40,000 Unionized Verizon Workers Walk Off The Job
- Thread starter HardOCP News
- Start date
**proceeds to post copypasta propaganda**[/QUOTE]
There is so much propaganda on both sides, i don't see how anyone not directly involved can make an informed decision.
Ok, so what side has the facts, and what side is propaganda?
Narsbar posted a list, whether it was copypasta or not is really not the issue, of benefits we have as a direct result of unions. You called said list propaganda ... you were wrong.
Skripka
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Getting what you ask for will not be kumbaya.
It will be more unemployed, lower wages, more H1B replacements, and more offshoring of labor. Because those are the kinds of labor laws that those with SuperPACs bribe those in power want.
The unions served a necessary purpose and I applaud what they've done... in the past. Pointing out all the good they did in the past is no longer relevant going forward. These days everything is global. Unless we're going to become an isolationist nation and scrap all our free-trade agreements, there's not much of a future left for most unions. They're competing against the whole world and the consumer (most of them anyway) is far more worried about the price of a product or service than whether they're supporting 'fair wages and working conditions' anymore.
heatlesssun
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There are presidential candidates from both major parties proposing to just this and it's resonating with a lot of voters, across the political spectrum.
cageymaru
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From India and Pakistan.
Skripka
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As opposed to ATT? Verizon? Dow Chemical? Monsanto? The MPAA? The NFL?
Who exactly is there in the USA with tons of money that isn't "rotten" or "corrupt" at even a surface glance?
Politics / Political rhetoric. Candidates always talk and promise stuff they can't deliver. It's easy to talk about doing away with our free trade agreements until you start talking about what it would actually mean. There's a reason why this country runs a $40+ billion dollar trade deficit each and every month.
heatlesssun
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I agree. All I was saying is that there's not a lot of love these days from the middle class of free trade agreements and that's spread across political boundaries.
cageymaru
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Here in North Carolina where all of America is looking at us in disgust for our laws, you still need Unions because the local government takes kickbacks from businesses. Workers have no real protections under the law unless they negotiate it separately from the law. This happens all the time.
Man fired by bank says HB2 limits legal options
As a Former Verizon/CWA employee, they're both Assholes.
The employees lose here because the Union is always trying to hurt the company,and the company is trying to hurt the union. We used to just get caught in the fucking crossfire. The CWA are idiots, giving concessions on things they shouldn't and pushing too hard on other things. Hell, They fucked all the new people when they allowed Verizon to change the Health Care Policy for only new hires, but current employees kept their coverage. That makes new employees different, aka not an equal part of the union anymore. Isn't that what the union is for, to make sure everyone gets a equal/fair share?
Verizons certainly no fucking saint, but the CWA is just as big of a fuck knuckle as Verizon.
The employees lose here because the Union is always trying to hurt the company,and the company is trying to hurt the union. We used to just get caught in the fucking crossfire. The CWA are idiots, giving concessions on things they shouldn't and pushing too hard on other things. Hell, They fucked all the new people when they allowed Verizon to change the Health Care Policy for only new hires, but current employees kept their coverage. That makes new employees different, aka not an equal part of the union anymore. Isn't that what the union is for, to make sure everyone gets a equal/fair share?
Verizons certainly no fucking saint, but the CWA is just as big of a fuck knuckle as Verizon.
Retronym
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I'm about 99% sure I've seen his argument arrangedt in exactly the same way on reddit and on email chains.
He's welcome to make his point, and he is welcome to receive the same criticism he dished out to others.
Even people that most would consider "rich" are being hurt by the direction our country is going. Only the 'ULTRA rich' really benefit in a global economy with our current tax structure. Only those few (the .01%) capable of taking advantage of the offshore tax loopholes, and who also get the majority of their income from investments, can truly thrive in our current structure. That being said, If suddenly that $500 Korean TV now costs $800 because of tariffs in order to make US TV's competitive, people will howl. People are all for social justice and helping everyone else out... as long as someone else is willing or forced to pay for it.
twonunpackmule
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I move around a lot. I lived in Oklahoma, North Carolina, South Carolina, DC, Baltimore, and Alaska. I didn't blanket any statement. I clearly made an example that money/income is not the same in various states and cities. So, the idea that a federal minimum wage should be imposed across the board is silly. A one stop solution will have ill effects on areas not capable of taking it on. People will lose their jobs and things will be automated.
I mean, if you could read, you could see that was my point.
It's much easier to solve problems on a local scale, than a nationwide scale. That's why we have state and federal governments. Minimum wage should be a local issue.
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heatlesssun
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Which is always the thing I don't get. There are those who complain about how raising the minimum will raise prices and kick people out of minimum wage jobs yet don't see to understand that ending free trade agreements would definitely raise prices on all sorts of things as well which would lead to job loses in lots of minimum wage job loses in the retail sector.
Retronym
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I just got back from Arbys. My combo meal was just over $10.
I feel elevated food prices more than I feel offshoring, H1 Visas, or anything else.
The woman who spoke perfect English was unable to abide my simple request of ketchup packets on a 10 dollar order.
Just keep my fast food cheap.
Beyond that, maybe get the order right.
I feel elevated food prices more than I feel offshoring, H1 Visas, or anything else.
The woman who spoke perfect English was unable to abide my simple request of ketchup packets on a 10 dollar order.
Just keep my fast food cheap.
Beyond that, maybe get the order right.
twonunpackmule
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Laws require compliance.
Klrgoten
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No kidding... it's crazy how expensive fast food is getting. It doesn't seem like it's going to get any cheaper either as all of these increased minimum wage laws are passed. I started off @ minimum wage ($7.75/hr in CA at the time) like a lot of people out of high school, working my way through college so I didn't have to take on a crazy burden of debt right out of the gate, I was also able to get a big mac meal for $3 or so. The days of those cheap fast food meals are long gone and as that min wage increases, corporations will actively & hastily find ways to cut costs... they certainly aren't just going to take a seat and just absorb it.
We all know automation is what's in store for the future but I can almost guarantee that if every fast food is forced to pay every employee at least $15/hr, we'll see some impressive fast-tracking of the technology and end up with a far higher unemployment rate in a relatively short amount of time.
Semantics
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Psh if we just properly subsidized our healthcare we'd be much more competitive with other nations because the business wouldn't have to settle part of the bill. Hell Japan and France can deal with healthcare better then we can' govt covers most procedures for 50-100% of their cost and you're liable for the rest, allows them to set prices and standards in an noncompetitive business. Hell we can't even import quality orthopedic gear from other counties because it's been lobbied against so hard between the 5 non competing business in the US. Who choose to avoid competing with all 5 of each other at a time so only 3 of theme make similar products at a time all of which are priced the same and come with liaison to teach doctors how to use their gear because each one uses propriety ways to attach.
Its increased due to the push back of cheap sources of raw material for food, ie cutting meat with sawdust and using the cheapest sugars available. Inflation would also account for around a 15% increase from 2007 not that inflation wouldn't be in part a function of a higher minimum wage but not so much against the overall value of the dollar.
I think the problem is that it's hard to be objective about a personal belief. It's easy to see where others are wrong, but very difficult to see your own blind spots. Capitalism, socialism, etc. are good when viewed by an idealist. Unfortunately, scum always rises to the top, and any system can, and will be gamed. And any protective measures added will also be gamed. Certain systems are definitely better than others though, but you'll still have to hear from idealists who criticize your faults, fairly or unfairly. But the reality of the situation is easy. If you're not part of the elite, you're going to be screwed, no matter the system or protections in place.
Monkey God
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How is that supposed to sway me exactly?
The "...oh wait" should have indicated the tongue-in-cheek tone of my response. The airline industry is doing just fine same as Verizon
Deadly Ramon
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I didn't know the sodomite lobby = "all of America."
Yep and I can go left and right at the same time. Are you sure I'm the one being ridiculous? Seems to me you said something stupid and want someone to validate you.
Nope wrong again Bob. In order for a union to speak upon the workers they must get the majority and therefore they cannot single out individuals..
Wisconsin wasn't near bankruptcy.
Texas has one of the largest rates of teen pregnancy and ranks 33rd in educated states.
As I said before the only one full of it is you. Go read something and make this discussion more interesting.
KazeoHin
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Already validated! Validated by your priceless replies. I wasn't expecting anyone to care about my little comments, most of them off topic and harmless but here you are: gett'n all mad.
YeuEmMaiMai
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I wonder how much those people get paid? my friend just started with century link and his STARTING wage is $25 an hour...
TeeJayHoward
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Where'd you get that concept from? My only union experience is with my current company, but this is certainly not true here. The union guys seem to be the vast minority here - maybe 1 in 100. (Or am I misunderstanding?)
who gives s a shit, raise wages, end agreements and place tariffs. it may be a price jolt, fuck it we will live, and slowly but surely get some jobs back.... plus it may actually be an ideal time to do it, we can put all that cheap money that is going nowhere useful or needed to real use.
cageymaru
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I had to look that up as I'm not up to speed with hate speech. Thanks!
Deadly Ramon
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Yes I did copy and paste. So what? The facts speak for themselves and thank you for making that point.
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Yes copied. So what? Those are what are commonly referred to as facts. Ever quoted a H hardware review? Did that make the H facts invalid?
It is cheap. If you order the premium items, yes, then it will get expensive. But you can get two mcdoubles and a small fry for < $5. Wendys has the four for $4 deal. And they WILL give you a cup so you can drink water with your meal. Which is actually better for you than all the rest of the drinks on the menu. Each fast food place has cheap fast food. If you choose not to buy it, ;and want the premium items, then that's up to you. But don't pretend those cheaper items aren't there. Both a big mac and a mcdouble are basically double cheeseburgers. One costs almost 3 times the other. Burger king is the same situation. A whopper with cheese will cost you nearly three times what a double cheeseburger does. As I go through the drive through, I can hear what other people order, and it's almost always a large combo. Which includes $2.80 for soda, and $2.50 for large french fries to go along with their premium burger for $5.25. Yup, a $10 fast food meal. So maybe pass on all those extra calories and get two double cheeseburgers instead. For a third of the large combo price.
narsbars has the whole thing explained quite well. The only reasons unions exist is because of corporate greed and lack of giving even the littlest crap about their employees. Labor laws, as mentioned, all came about because of unions. And even those aren't enough to protect workers. You don't find hundreds of employees getting together to form a union when they're happy with their jobs; they do that when they're getting screwed. Sure, sometimes the balance eventually swings a bit too far in one direction for a while, but overall, unions are a necessary evil; how many companies have gone under because of unions getting giant salaries for line workers? Please list them. All the rest have gone under because of mismanagement. Just remember, corporate executives work very hard to find ways to avoid paying employees even one cent more than they have to. line worker salaries aren't directly tied to product prices; those same executives will charge as much as they can until people stop buying the product. Only then will they drop prices. In the meantime, they pocket the profits, all the while crying 'we can't pay the workers another cent or we'll go out of business! How often do you hear about a company lowering prices when their costs go down? Any executive that did that would be fired in a second.
How do I know. I've been on both sides of the argument. I worked for a fortune 500 company for seven years as a manager, and I was instructed to lie to my workers about how much we could afford to pay them (not told directly; it was just implied that I should tell them whatever it took to keep them happy with what they were getting). In fact, I got bonus money every quarter for keeping costs down that way. I made up fake cost reports to show my employees so that they'd keep working for way less than I could have paid them. And it worked like a charm. I got my bonuses, my boss did, and I'm sure the people above him did too. All by lying to my employees. And I know every other manager at my level was doing the exact same thing. Was there a memo issued saying 'Lie to your staff about costs'. Of course not. But it was suggested in such ways to be understood, as that's what I should do. I had friends at other competing companies doing the very same thing. We even found ways to get people to quit if they were there too long and were making extra due to longevity raises. How much more? Twenty or twenty five cents an hour was enough to 'trip the meter'. Remember, a quarter an hour x 40 hours is ten bucks. Times several employees, lets say, five. 50 bucks a week. X 52 weeks. I can shave $2600 a year in salary alone by screwing those five people into hating their job enough to quit, then add in company paid pension and it's even more. And we were expected to do it. And we did. This goes on in thousands of companies every day. There's no way to protect those workers. Except with a union. But by lying carefully, nobody stayed on long enough to want to unionize.
So it's not dependent on product prices. There's enough money to go around. But those of us up higher in the food chain intentionally screw over those below us. Not because we have to. But because we can.
I left that job and moved to a different profession. But I'm absolutely sure that everything is continuing exactly the same as it was 20 years ago, as I have friends still in that industry.
The question isn't 'is there enough money'. The question is, 'who's going to get it'. And it isn't going to be the guys at the bottom. As long as there are more workers than jobs, those workers are going to fucked over. I guarantee it.
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cageymaru
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Um you just called regular run of the mill people sodomites? If I were to call you or your family a weird name you wouldn't be happy. Can you answer me this? Why is what happens in other people's underwear so important to you and your religious beliefs? What personal stake do you have in who is having sex with whom? Just curious. Always wondered about that.
Disposed
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Is all about control. Their savior promised free will and told his flock judging others is wrong but don't tell them that. In order for a Christian to be anti anything they have to disregard all of the teachings of Christ, that is the lovely hypocrisy of religion.
Instead of working to follow the rules of the religion they work the rules to follow them.