Apple vs. The FBI May Not Be A War Apple Can Win

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ZDNet doesn't seem to think this whole Apple vs. the FBI thing will end well. As I said yesterday, we're talking about a legally binding court order from a judge. Unless Apple gets some form of legal intervention, they will be forced to comply with the court order.


While Apple has come out strongly in favor of security and privacy, it's facing an uphill battle with the FBI and other government security organizations. David Gewirtz looks at the reasons why Apple may be right, but also why its attempt to block the FBI's order may prove futile.
 
This one doesn't bother me that much. There is a court order and a warrant. What bothers me is warrantless phone searches.
 
Shmee said:
This one doesn't bother me that much. There is a court order and a warrant. What bothers me is warrantless phone searches.
Click to expand...

I would agree with this, mostly.

The problem is, the way the software is designed today, the phone keys are not accessible to Apple.

If they are being honest about the architecture design, and there is no built in way around it, the only way to comply with breaking into this one phone, would be to brute force it, or to find a bug that allows you to break it.

The real problem with this order is the precedent it sets. Breaking into this phone will likely be hugely difficult. Apple themselves, and other phone OEM's seeing them be forced to break into it will likely think "Well, shit, that was really difficult. We should probably put in a backdoor in case this happens to us", and then it's all downhill from there.

Once a backdoor is there, its only a matter of time until it is exploited by, identity thieves, botnets and mass surveillance dragnets.
 
WADR to the author, he's not an attorney and misses the plethora of legal challenges to the court order. He makes good points that will be discussed as part of those legal arguments, but to ignore them and say that Apple is not likely to win here is a little short sighted.
 
Apple is obstructing an FBI investigation, does not matter how they or anyone else feels, they will lose this battle.
But, it seems that both sides are playing politics. Its no secrete that the current administration does not like "Big corporations" in the public eye anyway.
I also question this grand standing, do they really need apple to by-pass the phones security in such a way as to compromise all other iphones?, or is the gov. using this as a propaganda tool to put apple in a bad light?
I'm not apple fanboy, but i do see them wanting to protect their ip. Why not put out a press conference, stating they will take the phone, extract the data from it, then send the data to the FBI, when they are satisfied with the data, apple can then destroy the phone and or give the phone back in the condition they received it.
both sides win. sort of.
 
I'm sure there is a private conversation happening somewhere where Tim Cook is getting an ultimatum. Comply with the FBI or we'll make sure you start paying your fair share of corporate taxes, so feed some white knight bullshit to the public and start complying.
 
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cptnjarhead said:
I also question this grand standing, do they really need apple to by-pass the phones security in such a way as to compromise all other iphones?, or is the gov. using this as a propaganda tool to put apple in a bad light?
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This is covered in the article. It's basically a two sided issue:
1- This is an iPhone 5C, and only one, and does not have the hardware encryption tech related or the thumbprint reader like on newer models.(BTW, the 5C is how you know they are a terrorist) So, creating a firmware for that one phone is not going to break the encryption on all phones. That's a silly claim made by tech journalists looking for clicks.
2- THere is a concern that giving the modified firmware to the FBI for use on the phone would allow its use elsewhere for nefarious FBI schemes (EPIC EYEROLL) and there is a fear that the FBI would not be able to keep it secure. THAT is fair enough, but there are ways around that.
 
the FBI does not mess around. They will dig up stuff that was buried centuries ago to get you....hope Apple likes the full cavity search with no lube...
 
This is all a PR stunt and we all know they will have to comply, BUT, it does bring this into the light on a national level, which can only be a good thing for privacy advocates.
 
This is even more motivation to make sure you get a phone with either an unlocked boot loader, or an easily unlockable one, for which encryption and secruity focused ROM's are available.

This shit is getting out of hand.
 
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Can one be court ordered to work for someone & create intellectual property for that person for free? That seems like a relevant question in this case.

All of that aside, where is the NSA on this? Why haven't they sifted the data out of what they have collected & turned it over? Where is the inter-agency cooperation?
 
Modred189 said:
This is covered in the article. It's basically a two sided issue:
1- This is an iPhone 5C, and only one, and does not have the hardware encryption tech related or the thumbprint reader like on newer models.(BTW, the 5C is how you know they are a terrorist) So, creating a firmware for that one phone is not going to break the encryption on all phones. That's a silly claim made by tech journalists looking for clicks.
.
Click to expand...

How are you going to update the firmware on the phone without unlocking the phone or destroying the information in the process of updating the phone?

tikiman2012 said:
Can one be court ordered to work for someone & create intellectual property for that person for free? That seems like a relevant question in this case.
Click to expand...

The court told the FBI they would have to pay Apple for their services if I understand correctly. Apple should do it. And tell the FBI to cover the damages this will cause to their public image.
 
Whether Apple wins or loses is likely to rest on the definition of "make all reasonable effort". Apple has apparently been working with the FBI to try and unlock the phone and making what they considered "reasonable effort". Cracking the phone at the OS level would seem to be both unreasonable effort and unreasonable risk (for Apple). This is just a variation of the other limits that are being pushed in the name of security (and not always in the right direction).
 
They should just give it to the NSA for some supercomputer time and let it hash away for an hour or so. We all know they can do it. Hell, this is all probably just a dog and pony show to keep the masses from getting suspicious.
 
UrielDagda said:
I'm thinking this is all a move to make them look good to the public in respect to privacy.. A few days of fluff and PR then they'll ultimately comply and say they simply had no choice.
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This is so Apple can stay in business. If Apple were to put back doors in their iOS devices, then nobody overseas would buy them. Americans don't care, we'll post selfies for the government, but people overseas don't trust American made products anymore.
 
Good Article from the Register:
Confused as to WTF is happening with Apple, the FBI and a killer's iPhone? Let's fix that

"The issue here is not one of creating a backdoor; nor is the FBI asking for Apple to decrypt the data on the phone. They’re asking for a software update (which could be designed to work only on that one particular phone) which would then allow the FBI to attempt to crack the passcode and decrypt the data. Such a solution would be useless if applied to any other phone.

In the past Apple has complied with requests to, for example, bypass lock screens in aid of criminal investigations. It’s only in recent years that they’ve taken an ideological stance on consumer privacy. I believe Apple is taking this position less as a moral high ground and more as a competitive differentiator, betting that Google won’t do the same.

Essentially, Apple can help cops break into your iPhone 5C, if they're holding the handset in their hands, but it just doesn't want to admit it."

This only reinforces my opinion that Apple is run by some of the biggest douchbags in the universe...
 
thejokker said:
They’re asking for a software update (which could be designed to work only on that one particular phone) which would then allow the FBI to attempt to crack the passcode and decrypt the data. Such a solution would be useless if applied to any other phone.
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Right. I believe that :rolleyes:

Even if it were true, and it were restricted to one single phone by serial number or something like that.

1.) It wouldn't be that difficult to work around and make it work on other phones; and
2.) Now the precedent is set, and everyone will be getting a court order and running to Apple/Samsung/etc. whenever they want some information, warranted or not.

This is an EXTREMELY slippery slope, and you can't give an inch.
 
DukenukemX said:
This is so Apple can stay in business. If Apple were to put back doors in their iOS devices, then nobody overseas would buy them. Americans don't care, we'll post selfies for the government, but people in America don't trust Chinese made products anymore.
Click to expand...
Fixed that for ya.
 
alxlwson said:
They should just give it to the NSA for some supercomputer time and let it hash away for an hour or so. We all know they can do it. Hell, this is all probably just a dog and pony show to keep the masses from getting suspicious.
Click to expand...

Aside from the fact that 10 wrong attempts will wipe the phone.
 
CombatChrisNC said:
Aside from the fact that 10 wrong attempts will wipe the phone.
Click to expand...

I think you would have to extract the flash storage chip from the phone, duplicate the encrypted data onto an external storage device, and then brute force decrypt the data on said super computer.

You wouuldnt have the phone powered on AMD try to brute force the pin/password. That would be silly.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Right. I believe that :rolleyes:

Even if it were true, and it were restricted to one single phone by serial number or something like that.

1.) It wouldn't be that difficult to work around and make it work on other phones; and
2.) Now the precedent is set, and everyone will be getting a court order and running to Apple/Samsung/etc. whenever they want some information, warranted or not.

This is an EXTREMELY slippery slope, and you can't give an inch.
Click to expand...

An equally slippery slope would be to protect known terrorists and allow them to conduct their business with impunity...
 
thejokker said:
An equally slippery slope would be to protect known terrorists and allow them to conduct their business with impunity...
Click to expand...
It's not like the terrorists couldn't have just dropped the phone in water and made it impossible for the FBI to look at their oh so important documents and selfies.
 
thejokker said:
An equally slippery slope would be to protect known terrorists and allow them to conduct their business with impunity...
Click to expand...

I'm not concerned about terrorists.

You are more likely to die by being struck by lightning... ...twice... ...while drowning, than to ever be a victim of terror.

Even if authorities could point to a single example where warrant-less massive dragnet surveillance techniques led to the prevention of a terrorist plot (which they can't, all the examples the give are invariably picked apart by the press) it would not be warranted to proceed with these types of activities.

Authorities have other techniques available to them, like good old human intelligence and detective footwork, like they used before we all had all of our selfies on our phones.

Terrorism really isn't a huge problem, and people who make it into being a huge problem, are experiencing irrational fear (which is the goal of terrorism)

The truth is that when you live in a free society with civil liberties and protections, you will runt he risk of those who would harm us taking advantage of our liberties to conceal their activities. That doesn't mean you destroy those liberties, all we hold dear, just to protect life and limb.

Whatever happened to "live free or die", "freedom isn't free", or "those whu would sacrifice essential liberty to obtain security deserve neither, and will lose both"?

Living in a free society comes with risks, and I would have it no other way.

Thankfully these risks are very small, so lets not all freak out, and dismantle our freedoms even further than we already have in the name of irrational fear of terrorism.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Right. I believe that :rolleyes:

Even if it were true, and it were restricted to one single phone by serial number or something like that.

1.) It wouldn't be that difficult to work around and make it work on other phones; and
2.) Now the precedent is set, and everyone will be getting a court order and running to Apple/Samsung/etc. whenever they want some information, warranted or not.

This is an EXTREMELY slippery slope, and you can't give an inch.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

The SECOND that ANY specialized version of iOS is compiled, even if targeted to this one specific iPhone 5c, iOS as a whole looses all encryption credibility.

If the general public can reverse engineer the publicly available iOS for things like jailbreaking, imagine what someone would pay for a version that can be reverse engineered such that it renders ALL phone's encryption useless.

All it takes is one person with this one special version of iOS, be it an employee at Apple or any number of government employees it is likely to pass hands with, and it's game over. This is what Apple wants to prevent.
 
Plus, let's remember that Apple did comply with the FBI and did hand over all iCloud data from the scumbag POS terrorists. Call records are available from the carriers such as ATT, TMobile etc.. So what is there on the phone that the FBI needs? Terrorist selfies at Disneyland and the strip-club?
To force Apple to create a new product that they had no intention of creating... that would actually diminish and jeopardize our 4th Amendment protection, that is unreasonable and unconstitutional. In the future, the FBI can just take the thumb of the dead terrorist and unlock their phone. Another point to remember is that this level of encryption is a result of the out-of-control, unconstitutional warrant-less, dragnet data gathering that was exposed by Snowden. If this current regime had not violated the Constitution in the first place, this level of encryption would likely not be deemed necessary.
 
I think it's a bad precedent to force a company to break it's own encryption.
 
One thing is for sure, the longer this goes on, the more likely key executives at Apple are about to be audited and / or FBI-smacked.
 
Shmee said:
This one doesn't bother me that much. There is a court order and a warrant. What bothers me is warrantless phone searches.
Click to expand...
Once they do this, every country will want it and court orders will come regularly via the Kangar er FISA court. They should absolutely fight this all the way to the Supreme Court.
 
Spidey329 said:
One thing is for sure, the longer this goes on, the more likely key executives at Apple are about to be audited and / or FBI-smacked.
Click to expand...
They have good accountants to handle the IRS, good lawyers to fight the FBI and good PR people to call the FBI out for harassment.
 
I like that Apple is standing up to the Feds on this. I wish that more companies would do so instead of spying on us day and night. How did police catch bad guys before we all had cell phones?
 
UrielDagda said:
I'm thinking this is all a move to make them look good to the public in respect to privacy.. A few days of fluff and PR then they'll ultimately comply and say they simply had no choice.
Click to expand...

I disagree. They have good reason to not want to crack their own security, particularly considering that they need to assure corporate customers that their stuff is secure enough to use without having to go back to a service like Blackberry. I don't see the need for cynicism at all here.
 
thejokker said:
An equally slippery slope would be to protect known terrorists and allow them to conduct their business with impunity...
Click to expand...
The "terrorists getting secure communications" angle on this shouldn't really have that much weight in this decision. That boat has already sailed in that encryption is already widely available from hundreds of vendors located in nations of all types. It's no longer a US border controlled technology and hasn't been for years.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
I'm not concerned about terrorists.
You are more likely to die by being struck by lightning... ...twice... ...while drowning, than to ever be a victim of terror.
Click to expand...

And that's the thing. No one is ever concerned about this subject, until they become extremely concerned. Don't know how old you are and I know people love to go 9/11 on this subject in the states. In my nearly 48 years, 9/11 is without question personally the most significant event in the US in my lifetime. I'm not a New Yorker and didn't I know personally died on that day. But it just made me think what would happen if 20 talented and dedicated people really wanted to cause harm because these guys were kind of a bad joke.

I don't fear that anyone of my loved ones or I will die at the hands of terrorists. But I do fear that if the right 20 persons are dedicated to enough to do the wrong thing it won't matter what I fear.
 
cptnjarhead said:
Apple is obstructing an FBI investigation, does not matter how they or anyone else feels, they will lose this battle.
But, it seems that both sides are playing politics. Its no secrete that the current administration does not like "Big corporations" in the public eye anyway.
I also question this grand standing, do they really need apple to by-pass the phones security in such a way as to compromise all other iphones?, or is the gov. using this as a propaganda tool to put apple in a bad light?
I'm not apple fanboy, but i do see them wanting to protect their ip. Why not put out a press conference, stating they will take the phone, extract the data from it, then send the data to the FBI, when they are satisfied with the data, apple can then destroy the phone and or give the phone back in the condition they received it.
both sides win. sort of.
Click to expand...


They are only obstructing if they are capable of doing what is ordered... If you were ordered to change into a dog on a DNA level, doesn't mean you can actually do this (Apple have stated there is no back door, and that they cant... so that will be an interesting argument
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
This is even more motivation to make sure you get a phone with either an unlocked boot loader, or an easily unlockable one, for which encryption and secruity focused ROM's are available.

This shit is getting out of hand.
Click to expand...

Exactly. This is why I refuse to buy a phone that doesn't bootloader unlocks and doesn't have a removable battery. I decide what goes on my phone. Nobody else.
 
thejokker said:
An equally slippery slope would be to protect known terrorists and allow them to conduct their business with impunity...
Click to expand...
So because we have a joke of an immigration policy, we have to give up all privacy. Mission accomplished.
 
The basic jest of it, the FBI wants apple to create custom firmware that disables the progressive delay when entering bad passwords, and the device whip after 10 bad passwords. These conditions are controlled via software, which apple can update even when locked. If finally forced by the FBI, if were apple I'd just somehow bake that functionality into the hardware, so in the future the circumvent wasn't possible.

Screw you FBI.
 
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